Special:Badtitle/NS90:User talk:DocColress/No more Metal Gear jokes, just more examples/reply (19)

1. We see the admins, even Ein, taking orders from Nascaur though. And since Nascaur works directly for Evice, than this makes all of them equally heinous. Ein could not have gotten as far as he did with his scientific atrocities had Nascaur not given him the go-ahead for it, and Nascaur wouldn't have done that had Evice not given HIM the go-ahead as well as been the one leading and directing Cipher to begin with. So consider all that and then consider do any of those three characters have any redeeming features? Ein was portrayed as a pure evil sociopath from start to finish, while Nascaur and Evice are literally put in a demonic, monstrous light. I say they all pass the trope.

2. The thing with Ardos is that I could've bought him as meeting the heinous standard had GREEVIL not been redeemed. He was THE founder and leader of Cipher, meaning that he sets the heinous standard of the story (of XD, not Colosseum - those Cipher characters operated separately from the XD ones, thus are judged by their own story and scale). Not only does Ardos not quite measure up aside from one Moral Event Horizon moment towards the end, but there's nothing about him that suggests he's more OR less redeemable than the father who corrupted him in the first place. He doesn't repent by the end of the game, but neither did Cyrus or Lysandre, and they're not CMs. Basically, I do not believe what we have on Ardos is sufficient enough for him to pass a trope that his father and brother could not pass. If we'd gotten a third Orre game where Ardos got more heinous and stayed unrepentant, THEN he'd pass. But as it stands, I really think the Pokemon CM page is fine the way it is.