Special:Badtitle/NS90:Talk:Complete Monster/Pokémon/Ardos

You already know I consider him a CM and now I'm going to give an in-depth explanation of why. I've read your entry describing him on the effort post;

Of all the Cipher members in XD, Ardos has the most potential for Complete Monster-dom, being an immoral psychopath who would resort to deadly means of achieving Cipher's objectives. However, there are three things worth noting. One is how he rescues Michael and his little sister Jovi from Zook at the start of the game when Zook was threatening them with a Shadow Zangoose. Ardos later states he only did it to keep anyone from noticing the results of his father's plans, but whatever his motives were, he still found it in him to rescue children from harm. Two is how supportive of his father he is and how he seems to be on decent terms with his brother, showing that he possibly does value family. Of course he hates to see Greevil abandon his evil ways and turn to good (insert Austin Powers reference here) but whether or not this is a result of his own nature or how Greevil himself raised him to behave and think is left unclear. And three is how the heinous standard of the work isn't stacked in favor of him being irrdeemable seeing as not only is his brother redeemed, but so is Greevil, the man who supposedly founded Cipher, set up operations for Evice and co. in Orre, had just a bit earlier threatened to destroy everything and everyone on the island out of rage, and in general was just horrid up until his good son was able to get through to him. If someone on his level of evil can turn himself around, Ardos being unable to do the same seems less likely, and since no third game was made, we're given nothing that really sets Ardos apart from being worse than his old man, and if Eldes can make Greevil see the light, perhaps it's not impossible for him to do the same for his own brother.

First of all Ardos only protects Michael and his sister from Zook because his father ordered him to. As for valuing family, we don't really know that much about his relationship with his brother, and he's supportive of Greevil because he's the leader of Cipher, not because he's his father, just look at the way he reacts when Eldes calls Greevil Father instead of Grand Master. The only evidence that that he's potentially redeemable is he's less heinous than his father, and even then there are a number of other factors to bear in mind. First of all you yourself said less heinous doesn't automatically equal potentially redeemable when my sister tried to get Nascour removed due to being less heinous than Ardos (Speaking of Nascour, if you're insistent on keeping him surely the bit about forcing Wes to fight a series of battles without his pokemon being healed could be removed, that isn't monstrous at all) but I've yet to see any evidence that Ardos is potentially redeemable other than he's less heinous than his father. Second characterization is just as important as actions when it comes to defining a CM, and Ardos's defining trait is his fanatical devotion to Cipher. When Ardos suggests blowing up Citadark Isle Greevil has reservations about killing all his loyal staff and their Pokémon, but Ardos still wants to do this, and what really hammers the point home is when Eldes tells his father and brother they should be ashamed all Ardos has to say is "Clinging to such foolish pride will only guarantee the demise of Cipher." In other words he's prepared to do whatever it takes to ensure the survival of his organization, and if the Pokémon Company ever get round to making a third Shadow Pokémon game it would be very hard to imagine him reforming. It could be argued that while his father is more heinous, Ardos is more evil. In this regard he has a parallel to Princess Mombi, she's on the page despite being less heinous than her boss because she has no mitigating factors. You previously said the difference is Ardos was raised to be the way he is while Mombi works for the Nome King purely voluntarily, but it's never actually stated that Ardos was raised to be like that, and even if that is the case his brother would have almost definitely been raised the same way and he's totally different. Finally he has considerably less resources than his father. During the post-game Ardos sends Michael a letter stating he's planning to rebuild Cipher. Unless a third Shadow Pokémon gets made we'll never know if he's successful, but in any case he's going to have a hard time doing it. Greevil is very rich which is how he was able to found Cipher in the first place, but with Ardos he has to hide from the authorities, he probably doesn't have access to his father's wealth, and Cipher is in ruins. Most of the other Admins have reformed and all the Shadow Pokemon have either been rescued or collected by Miror B. Also considering everything we know about Ardos, he'd probably be perfectly capable of being just as heinous as his father if he had the resources.