Les Misérables (theatre)/Headscratchers


 * In the musical, How did M. Thénardier recognise Valjean as a criminal when he tried to rob him? He remembers Valjean from the time he paid for Cosette, and during that exchange Valjean never said who he was, so to the Thénardiers he's just some rich man. Yet when É Thénardier tries to rob Valjean in Paris, he says "You know me, I'm a con, just like you"; and knows Valjean has a brand on his chest. How?
 * Couldn't he have just opened Valjean's shirt (looking for a hidden necklace he could steal) or it had come open, revealing the brand?
 * In the musical, Thénardier opens up Valjean's shirt while robbing him, then mentions it to Javert in The Robbery.
 * More of a Meta JBM than specifically about the musical itself (and possibly the book, but I don't think the book has this issue), but why is it considered such a huge thing for or amongst gay people? The Ho Yay? The Estrogen Bait Brigade? Or just that it's one of the most widely known musicals there are (and has a feminine name for bonus points), and gay males stereotypically love musicals?
 * This gay troper has never heard of any particular stereotypes of gay men liking Les Mis specifically. Maybe it's just the general broadway fan stereotype. After all, it's a Big Damn Musical and most fans of musicals are also fans of Les Mis, the two go hand in hand with eachother.
 * Well, there was that episode of Scrubs where JD was arguing about The Glums with all the gay OA Ps who had started congregating on his decking. Apart from that, this troper can't think of any other examples.
 * Small Reference Pools?
 * There IS an AIDS research and recovery organization named Empty Chairs at Empty Tables after a song in the musical. Other than that, as a gay troper, I couldn't tell you about any other connections.
 * This one is more musical-specific as I have not, to date, read the entire book. Why has Javert become shorthand for an obsessively dogged Determinator who always gets his man? I've heard the phrase "officer who pursued a man for more than twenty years for stealing a loaf of bread" numerous times, but in the show doesn't give us any such thing. Javert doesn't pursue Valjean as much as he just kind of randomly runs into him a couple of times over the years. Obviously he never forgot Valjean, and he's certainly quick to pounce whenever their paths cross, but Javert hasn't been tracking him for years, he's been doing his job and getting promoted. If Valjean had, I don't know, moved to Belgium or something when he had the chance (difficult, I know, just using this as an example), they'd never have seen each other again.
 * It's what happens when you watch the musical and then wait bit. Javert does tend to say things ("At last we see each other plain") that can easily be interpreted as him tracking obsessively whenever he's offscreen. Not so much in the book, but a lot more people are willing to see a two-act musical than read The Brick.
 * Well, this Troper has read the book and can assure you that (even though Valjean and Javert to have odd habits of running into each other), Javert is looking for him. When Marius reports the Thénardiers as being scammers, Javert asks him if the man looks like he could be an ex-convict.
 * Not sure about that one. Isn't Javert asking about members of Patron-Minette at that point? Guelemer at least looks like an ex-convict from his description a few chapters earlier.
 * Also, when Javert hears a rumor of someone like Jean Valjean, even after he's supposedly dead, he travels to Paris and disguises himself as a beggar just to get a glimpse up close and see if it's really him.
 * The original troper is correct - Javert's obsession with Valjean is really only a product of the musical (which might be where the 'dogged determinator' bit comes from. In the book he simply always does his job and nothing more. He does dress up as a beggar to check if the man is Valjean, yet after he loses him the narrative specifically mentions that he forgets all about Valjean and moves on to other villains. He is definitely not asking about Valjean when he mentions a convict to Marius; he's running through descriptions of specific members of the Patron Minette, and the words 'ex convict' are preceded by 'weasly, cunning man' (quoting from memory) who only 'might be' an ex convict; it certainly isn't a description of Valjean. After he tries to capture the criminals, he is in the same room as Valjean for several minutes without noticing him. In the cafe after he's captured, his response to noticing Valjean there is merely mild sarcasm - Valjean's presence is at best incidental. The Javert in the book is, like most of the other characters, quite different from the one in the musical - this one just does his duty, without the distracting obsession over Valjean, and isn't specifically religious. A by product of condensing a 1200-something page novel into a three act musical is probably changing the characters out of necessity - and the musical is the most well known, which is where the impression originally mentioned supposedly comes from.
 * One thing that has always bothered this troper is that it seems like there are only 3 policemen in all of France. Javert, Javert's assistant (from the prologue) and the two guys who show up with Valjean at the Bishop's door. I feel like there should be a lot more policemen.... or does Javert have a bunch of clones that I didn't notice?
 * Does a story really need to have the entire police force seen or mentioned every time an officer appears? Javert appears alot because he's a main character. We don't assume that Thénardier owned the only inn in France either.
 * That adds up to four police officers.
 * Having only seen the musical, I don't know if this is addressed in the book, but... Why does Javert let Valjean go in the sewers? Why does he suddenly change his mind about him? He knew Valjean was at the barricade, so he certainly could have figured out that the man he was trying to help had been there also... Why would Javert suddenly see this as a noble thing, rather than an escaped convict helping a rebel guerilla? Why wouldn't he try to bring in both Valjean and Marius?
 * Presumably because by then he's seen Valjean have pity on Fantine, save the man trapped under the cart, save Champmathieu from a false conviction, and save his life, telling him where to find him. Almost every time they interact after the opening scene, Valjean's doing something heroic, and this is the last straw for Javert's black and white worldview.
 * It's addressed a bit more in the book, but the same point applies to the musical. By sparing Javert's life at the barricades, Valjean basically "killed" Javert. It's the first time in his life in which to act legally (arresting a ex-convict who broke parole) would be to act immorally (arresting the man who spared his life). Add to it the fact that Valjean clearly did it out of the goodness of his heart - he gave no terms or conditions to the act of mercy and even gave Javert his address for later. As for why Javert didn't arrest Marius as well, he's trying to arrest a good bit of the main cast, but he's not evil. If he took Marius right then and there, the kid would have died for sure. Valjean was the one wanting to give him medical treatment, and Marius probably wasn't going to go anywhere anytime soon if he did make it. As for why Javert left it on the honors system for Valjean to return, it ties in to him being unsure of whether it's right to act legally and arrest him, or morally and let him go. That's why he ultimately commits suicide. It's the only way he can think to solve the problem.
 * Just to add detail, in the book, Thénardier helps Valjean, who he thinks is an assassin, escape the sewers. Once outside, he runs into Javert, who helps him bring the badly wounded Marius (lots of cuts on his head, and the bullet that took him down went into his back and broke his shoulder blade) to his grandfather's house. Then he goes to Valjean's house with him, and when Valjean looks out the window, Javert is gone. Then his soliloquy-type thing happens.
 * Every time I see "A Little Fall of Rain" performed, be it in a fully-staged production or one of those cheesy concert revues, the actress playing Éponine always stands up straight & belts out the bridge like little orphan Annie at the end of "Tomorrow", then afterwards they suddenly remember "oh yeah, I'm supposed to be ," for the last part of the song. I'm not demanding full Realism or even strict adherence to any single style of acting, but is it too much to ask for consistency from one actor for the entirety of a three-minute song during which no changes to the plot or characters occur (except, of course)? Her recovering for 20 seconds in the middle only to relapse again right away just makes me laugh.
 * Maybe you've just consistently seen terrible actresses, because I've been to several performances of the musical, including both Broadway and high school productions, and the actress is always either lying on the ground in Marius' arms, or he is the one holding her up while she's weakly leaning into him.
 * Okay, this is a pretty insignificant question, but I was wondering if someone knew something I didn't. In the novel, Valjean's sister is described as having seven children. In the "Prologue" song of the musical, Valjean says, "My sister's child was close to death, and we were starving." Does anyone know why the number of children was changed?
 * Maybe one of her seven children was sick?
 * They were all hungry. But that one time, her youngest son would have died in the night unless someone did something.
 * For the same reason Éponine doesn't have a sister and Gavroche isn't mentioned as her brother, some of the details get left out when compressing a Doorstopper into a three hour musical.
 * What bothers me a little in this story (musical) is that Javert tracks Valjean most of his life. but in the robbery ("could it be he's some on jail bird") Javert doesnt realize its him. after 19 years of being his prison guard, then ten years of knowing him as the mayor, would've Javert be able to reconize Valjean right away?
 * In the musical Javert only ever sees the back of Valjean's head and maybe a side glimpse of his face for a fleeting moment. In every production I've seen Valjean takes care to keep his face hidden from Javert for the brief time they are on stage together.
 * How on earth did Javert know the gun would misfire? Even if it had a 50% chance of doing so, which is likely, that's a pretty big chance that you are going to actually be shot. Seriously, is he psychic?
 * He didn't know. Javert believes himself to be doing the right thing so absolutely that the universe itself will protect him in his quest for justice. This is why he commits suicide at the end, because Valjean has rocked his worldview so much. The gun misfiring was lucky (or not so much, Thénardier is probably not that concerned with maintaining the thing and the weapons of the period were not exactly reliable). He told Thénardier it wouldn't fire because of his belief in his dogma, and that it misfires is just lucky.
 * Maybe he knows a tad bit about weapons (handling with them somewhat regulary and such - I would not go as far that he is an expert, but...) - Thénardier's room is in a horrible condition, his aquaintances most surely live under the same circumstances - it is quite possible that the air is quite damp. And we all know how embarrasing it gets when your gunpowder gets damp. Javert's not a newbie to his work. Is is quite possible he has experience on the field... or maybe Hugo just wanted dear Monsieur l'Inspecteur to be even more Badass than he already was.