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InternetArchiveBot for All The Tropes

7
Cyberpower678 (talkcontribs)

Hi everyone. I’m Cyberpower678. I primarily reside on the English Wikipedia but am deploying InternetArchiveBot to other wikis I feel may benefit from the bot’s services. InternetArchiveBot is a bot that routinely checks all articles, looks for non-functional links, and then attempts to repair them by adding an Archive URL to them. Would this be something of use? IABot is deployed to almost 2 dozen Wikipedias.

Spike the Cat (talkcontribs)

I don't edit here much, but this sounds fine to me.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

Sounds useful to me. If you'd be kind enough to assist us with that, we'd deeply appreciate it.

Cyberpower678 (talkcontribs)

I would be happy to assist. I just need to know how to acquire the bot flag on this wiki.

Cyberpower678 (talkcontribs)

I just need to know how to go about getting the bot flag.

Cyberpower678 (talkcontribs)

I signed InternetArchiveBot into ATT.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

I have granted the bot flag to your bot.

Reply to "InternetArchiveBot for All The Tropes"
Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

If someone starts a thread in a forum, and I'm confident the issue the thread is resolved; Can I mark the thread as "resolved"? What about provide a summary?

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Sure, I don't see why not. And if you mark it resolved, you're prompted to enter a summary but it's not mandatory.

Reply to ""resolved""

New category listing the images we still don't have licenses for

2
Robkelk (talkcontribs)
Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Now that the category has automatically propagated across the wiki, I see there are slightly over 50,000 files that were imported from TVT and still don't have license information updated. I've updated 50 of them today -- approximately 0.1% of the list.

Obviously, this is not a one-person task.

Reply to "New category listing the images we still don't have licenses for"
Spike the Cat (talkcontribs)

Apologies if this is in the wrong place or I'm beating a dead horse. I haven't been here in almost two years, and I've never used the forums.

I'm doing a college project on TV Tropes. It occurred to me while writing the rough draft that I really don't know much about it, so I decided I needed to do some research. I've seen it criticized for not providing proper literary analysis (e.g.), but I never thought of it as analysis at all -- I assumed it was just meant to classify the patterns called "tropes". When I looked into it further, though, it turned out that the reality wasn't that simple. From what I gather, it is meant to analyse tropes to an extent but is considered to do a poor job of it, or something like that. Given that, I'm wondering where All The Tropes stands on this. Is this site primarily for classification or analysis? Is the analysis found here comparable in quality to that found elsewhere? How do you differ from TV Tropes in this area?

I'm sure I should know all this already, but I don't. (The project is due tomorrow, so I'm not here to get help with it. I'm just curious.)

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Our intent has always been to focus more on Analysis than TVT had. Hence our very basic Mechanics of Writing section where we began a structuralist approach to the creation of fiction and the use of tropes. Sadly we are somewhat hampered by a much smaller userbase and the habits formed, even in those of us with other intentions, by a decade of TVT. Analysis is always much harder than cataloguing; the latter is simply pattern-matching, while the former requires considerable thought and the time to both analyze and to write about the result. The often inconsistent literacy of the average troper acts against us, as does the fact that most tropers have tended to be on the young side -- say, under thirty -- and thus probably lack sufficient experience in analysis to start with. Plus, while we can say what we'd like to see, we can't force anyone to write anything, so we get what people want to contribute. It makes it hard to direct the wiki as a whole in any particular direction.

Reply to "Literary analysis"
Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

So, any plans to make 'em different from Tv Tropes? I know that we probably need the forums for something big, like the Paint the Hero Black article. Also, is it safe to add the Wiki Witch and some of the pages that I see in the Wayback Machine (I figure some of those pages are unique only to Tv Tropes and I'd like to avoid them.), if not how about some new characters for the new att-tan to wrangle with?

Reply to "Sugar/Darth Wiki Question"
Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

What's this gifting system and how does it work?

SelfCloak (talkcontribs)

It's part of the SocialProfile extension and it's for thanking people for various reasons. A message can be added if needed. There's two ways of giving gifts:

1) Go to someone's user page (you may need to click the "Social profile" link first) and click "Send a gift"

2) On the sidebar, under "Troper Tools", click "Gift a Friend". You can either choose from a list of friends or type the user's name.

At the moment, there's only two gifts, including one I just created (the candy cane one). Only administrators can create gifts, though requests can be made for more.

Reply to "Question"

Fatal exception of type MWException Errors

4
Whatchamacallit (talkcontribs)

hi, getting a lot of errors when browsing... is this on anybody's radar or is this wiki dead?

SelfCloak (talkcontribs)
Whatchamacallit (talkcontribs)

thanks, how can i help?

SelfCloak (talkcontribs)

This is a problem that Miraheze staff are qualified to solve. They have it logged on their Phabricator platform since last December.

Reply to "Fatal exception of type MWException Errors"
TBeholder (talkcontribs)

Valenth

Reason: Site as described is defunct; some kind informational site is at the URL now..

So, now ATT has to purge references to any site that missed upkeep of its domain or got PWN'ed? I don't see how this makes sense.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

If there's no work left for a wiki reader to even consult, what purpose does a page serve? What value is there in it? No one can review the work, no one can find errors to correct or tropes to add. I should point out that the "informational site" has been at that URL for years. This isn't just "hey, they forgot to renew last week" -- the work is utterly gone, there's not even sufficient archivage in the Wayback Machine to point at.

I don't do this casually. I search for the work, both through Google and the Internet Archive. If a work still exists at a different site, or in the Wayback Machine, I'll point the page there, and have, numerous times. But a work that's utterly vanished? What's the point? As we say in the All The Tropes:Works Page Guidelines, "Don't create a page for a work that no longer exists anywhere. You can't document a work that can't be consulted and studied, and other editors can't go and check it out. Don't do it.."

We're not here to catalog the simple fact that the work existed once -- we're here to analyze living works and how they're constructed. If works that no longer exist deserve pages, then hell, so do works that never existed and are entirely imaginary. Both have exactly the same amount of content to study.

TBeholder (talkcontribs)

> If there's no work left for a wiki reader to even consult, what purpose does a page serve?

For one, there's analysis already done: examples on the work pages and context for examples on trope pages referring to the works.

"Don't create pages for completely inaccessible things" makes perfect sense. But beyond that...

While in specific cases this may be no great loss, there are many silly pitfalls on this road, especially without explicit policy/guidelines (if there were any, this should be linked in the template).

Did this or that work really "utterly vanish"? Should we wipe and then restore as sites go down and then are restored? How quickly should we wipe anything? What if it was removed by a malicious party - censored from a hosting service or hacked? And do we know for sure? And there maybe left no e.g. BK-0010 or VIC 20 one could readily buy, either. Why have pages for them?

Tagging pages for all vanished web works so that the readers immediately know this (a template and a mark in Laconic, if any, would do) is a good idea, however.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

> > If there's no work left for a wiki reader to even consult, what purpose does a page serve?

> For one, there's analysis already done: examples on the work pages and context for examples on trope pages referring to the works.

Without the context to consult, what good is that? What value is there to say something "You can see how this trope is executed perfectly in chapter 4" if chapter 4 no longer exists to read?

> Should we wipe and then restore as sites go down and then are restored?

Why not? MediaWiki, like Pepperidge Farm, remembers. If the site reappears, we just undelete the page. It's not like deleting the page utterly destroys it and its history, never to return.

2dgirlfan (talkcontribs)

"Don't create a page for a work that no longer exists anywhere."

Polybius?

On a more serious note, City of Reality is down and has been for a while. The creator claims to have a backup on his Deviantart, but that was a year ago and I can't find anything else about it. Web archive has the frame, but none of the actual content (the comic). Would the claim of backup save it? Also Doctor_Who/Recap/S1/E04_Marco_Polo

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Over on the other wiki where I have mod rights, we have a tag "Unavailable" that indicates a particular free download isn't to be found legally anywhere - even in the Wayback Machine. But we keep the pages for these items because somebody might have copies of them saved locally, and might need to reference things like the re-use license terms or the name of the download's creator. And rarely - very rarely - something becomes available legally again; having the page means we don't need to re-do all the investigative work from scratch.

Bringing that idea here: Sometimes books go out of print, movies get put into "the vault", and websites disappear - but there are still copies out there. Less often, works come back. Why not keep the data that we've already turned into information? Besides, disk space is relatively cheap nowadays.

LulzKiller (talkcontribs)

I think this is a matter of personal judgement in terms of whether we are certain a work is missing and will be, if we know that it's merely "in stasis" we can keep it, if we know it is fully destroyed we have to act accordingly.

I'm completely in favor of deleting works that don't actually exist btw.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Okay, based on comments here and over at the DW forums, where I raised the question, I've worked up a potential "missing work" template, which you can find at template:MIA, naturally enough. Rather than nuke pages that seem worthless to me, I will flag them with this template. Please feel free to refine the language.

Labster (talkcontribs)

We do have a policy on this already: it's ATT:UNPUB. When I was writing it, I didn't intend to extend it to works that are no longer published, but I don't see why not. It's a synonym for unpublished with a slightly different meaning.

When websites disappear, and they aren't hosted in the Archive, then for all intents and purposes it no longer exists. It's not like an out-of-print book -- copies of those might well exist. Or if not, maybe some criticism of the work still exists, like of classical era works. Are we losing valuable criticism of some work that future historians will want? This is why notability is the standard in this case. Though I'd say our definition of notability is more like "still has a decent sized-fandom/can find at least few blog entries about the original story."

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Now, to bring back up the specific case that TBeholder cited, Valenth is/was a website. I've made the suggestion before that we treat websites as something other than works, because they are almost always repositories of multiple works, and themselves demonstrate only the smallest of trope lists with the most general of tropes, but let's ignore that for the moment..

With Valenth, we're talking something that was a community with what our article claimed was some 100K members, doing some kind of mons-like thing. But that was in 2008 -- ten freakin' years ago. That community and that website are gone, completely. Five minutes' checking with the Wayback Machine confirms that it wasn't just forgetting to re-up their domain reg or getting pwned -- they closed down between January and April of 2014. (Apparently with very little notice, as they were still soliciting new members on the top page in January.) This was then displayed at the website for six months:

Valenth Closed
Valenth is now closed. You can find new content from DNA and Sixar at Leupak.com including an exciting Valentines event!

After which a completely different site -- "VALENTH - Everything On Educational Books, Software and Games" -- appeared at that domain. (That "Valentine's event" suggests it may have shut down mere days after the January copy was archived.)

And BTW, that new site given in the closure notice? Currently an Asian sports site. Nothing at all on it that looks like the old Valenth. Tracking it through the Wayback Machine shows posts from the creator of Valenth complaining essentially of burnout, and never quite implementing anything that looked like the earlier site. And then the new site vanishes in the middle of 2016, to be replaced a few months later by that sports site.

Setting aside the idea that a website isn't a work in and of itself, Valenth simply does not exist in any form that matches that decade-old description. The Wayback Machine essentially saved only the top pages -- if there is any surviving content, I could not find it during my (admittedly brief) investigations. But when every link off a couple different versions of the top page returns a site database error or the Wayback Machine's "oops, we don't have that" message, I think it's reasonable to come to that conclusion.

So someone please tell me -- what value is provided, what purpose is served by keeping a description of something that sounds like a cool place to hang and play, but which doesn't exist any more, and the link to which takes you to someplace that's going to try to sell you something? This is not like a lost fanfic, which may yet still lurk on someone's hard drive somewhere. It's not coming back, ever.

Comrade Claus (talkcontribs)

It is this sort of thing that makes my Grind My Teeth whenever I hear the phrase "The Internet Is Forever".

It isn't. Even the Sphinx was forgotten & buried for long centuries. 0s & 1s on delicate delicate electronics are far more Ephemeral. There is a reason gov't and such still use magnetic tape for bulk data backup. So many websites i've enjoyed have vanished in part or in whole & even the archive isn't enough sometimes. I recall that artist Mangrowing lost all the art to his comic Ayane bug Story sequel (only 1-2 pages were saved elsewhere) due to Deviantart deleting it since Ayane was "underage". There was a text version of the story, but he didnt want to redraw it sadly

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Yeah, "The Internet Is Forever" is complete bull. I'm sure all of us have seen corporate entities deleting web content for any of a million reasons, most of which boil down to "it costs us less that way". And I used to admire the Wayback Machine, until I needed to retrieve a lot of material from it (both for this wiki and my own forums) and realized that it's almost a Potemkin Village version of the Web. By which I mean that unless your site is less than a couple levels deep, a lot of it will never be archived. And if your site is too wide -- like a wiki, with thousands of pages at the top level -- it's never going to get around to everything on it.

That said, I'm letting people know I'm nuking our page on Valenth. Because outside of the initial reactionary "how dare you delete something!" objection, no one has provided me in the last sixteen days with any justification for keeping it. Because unlike a lost fanfic, no one is going to have this entire website stored somewhere on a floppy disk from which they can just restore it for the rest of the web to enjoy.

Reply to "deletion"
TBeholder (talkcontribs)

I mean the current victorious march of "{{noreallife|Sorry, we have to impose Wikipedia's "reliable sources" rule on this one.}}" line.

Reply to "What with the ikipedia rule?"
SelfCloak (talkcontribs)

LulzKiller messaged me a few days ago about adminship, and I got to thinking:

It's been almost two years since I signed up for the Miraheze version of All The Tropes, maintaining the wiki from time to time with edits and redirects, also creating categories and adding them to applicable pages. But the thing is, I have to add a {{delete}} template each time pages, redirects and categories need to be deleted.

Gaining admin rights would help me do wiki editing more effectively. I didn't apply until now because I wasn't aware that being an admin would help me a lot, but now I feel I am ready for it.

As for the other responsibilities, I admit I lack the experience when it comes to vandals, blocks, page protections, etc., but I am aware of an admin's abilities and will listen to others when decisions are made.

LulzKiller (talkcontribs)

I approve this request.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

I see no reason to deny it, myself. Agreed.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

As do I.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

And I believe my approval makes the usual supermajority of admins.

LulzKiller (talkcontribs)

This basically means when it comes down to admins (unless non-admins can vote), only Brent, Doc and Quest need to comment.

Quest has been AWOL since July, so I guess we don't get to see what he thinks.

I would tag Doc but this extension is being a complete shitshow and won't let me.

Brent is a crat, so it's best to also let him vote.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

True - best to have all voices heard.

And of course non-admins can vote.

Labster (talkcontribs)

Yeah, but I'm like the least active 'crat ever. Let's go ahead and do this, then.

Basically everyone should be able to have a voice in these matters. Wikis are communities that should be open to all kinds of input. It's just that usually, people who have admin bit are the most active in the community anyway.

SelfCloak (talkcontribs)

I thank you all for the approval.

Reply to "Admin Request"