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WARNING: GIANT, MIND-BENDING, FUN-RUINING UNMARKED SPOILERS AHEAD. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Lying Media

• If you get the ending where Scott gets killed by Norman, the news anchor says that Scott was 48 when he died. But Scott was born in 1967, and the year when he was killed was 2011, so wouldn't that make him around 44-45?
  • As long as we're talking about inaccurate news reporting, if Scott is killed, his death is described as being "during a massive police operation", no matter who was (or wasn't) on the scene. Apparently Madison's not just an investigative reporter, but a one-woman police force!
    • It is called lying. Surprisingly, the press partake in misrepresenting facts all the time. What was the official press release by the police regarding the killer going to say? "We didn't do our jobs but a really nosy chick got lucky and figured everything out for us!"?
    • To be fair, the police had the place surrounded, so Shelby was killed during a police operation. Can you say Jedi Truth?

Ethan's Blackouts

• So, why was Ethan having dreams of drowning children when he wasn't the killer? And what was going on in the park?
  • Ethan's particular issues revolve around guilt over his son's death, and with the Origami killer on the news I guess that triggered hallucinatory nightmares revolving round the killer's MO. In any investigation into a high profile criminal the police are forced to deal with dozens of people claiming to be the killer, due to them being either delusional, wishing to be punished due to some deep seated feeling of guilt, well intentioned people suffering from blackouts or memory lapses, or simple attention whores. Ethan fits all the first three, and if Shawn wasn't kidnapped when he was would have likely turned himself in eventually. He's not the killer, that much is obvious. Ethan is mentally all over the place, scared of crowds and really suspicious looking, ironically he's being chased because he acts like a psychopath when the police should well know that's one flaw the Origami killer likely doesn't possess (since he takes the kids in broad daylight).
    • Indeed, Ethan has some interesting reactions to news reports about the killer before Shaun goes missing, it seems that the whole thing is hitting him hard even before he becomes a target
    • Ethan nearly shits himself if you look at the newspaper in Father and Son. There's also the possibility that due to his feelings of guilt he taught himself origami or went and bought some origami dogs while in a blackout to validate his feelings of guilt. That or Shelby was following him, noticed his recurring blackouts and took advantage of them to plant origami in his hand. As for the playground, it's possible that when Ethan had his blackout Shelby showed up in his cop uniform and offered to take Shaun home.
    • Ethan is an architect who already knows how to make detailed scale models (as seen in his work room in the prologue). He already has access to materials and the knowledge required to make things with paper. If his guilt and anxiety is already making him experience visions associated with the Origami killings, it is not too unlikely that his blackouts force him to unconsciously emulate the killer. Hence, the origami.
    • The guilt and media coverage may account for his blackouts, but it seems more likely that Scott is manipulating him as well. Primarily due to the fact that every time he blacks out, he ends up standing at the corner of Carnaby Square, just outside the construction site, with an origami dog in his hand. He would have no way of knowing the Origami Killer uses the site to commit his murders. Why Scott would willingly put Ethan at the scene of the crime is another question.
      • Some people have suggested that the trips to Carnaby specifically are caused by Ethan seeing the address of the letter he reads in 'Father and Son', which was sent from that district.
    • It's confirmed - Ethan knows how to do origami. In the Origami Blues and Helpless endings his room/cell is filled with origami figures.
      • At the beginning of the game, when he's waking up from his blackouts, Ethan comments that he doesn't know how to make origami and so doesn't know why he has the figure in his hands. It's likely that after the events that lead to the Origami Blues and Helpless endings, Ethan became obsessed with the Origami Killer and ended up learning how to make the figures.
      • I always thought these were delusions, and being hit by the truck was a metaphorical Adult Fear. We know Ethan has emotional but neurological damage from the accident causing immense emotional damage, probably set up deliberately to avert Insane Equals Violent.
      • Some people have suggested that Ethan is being possessed by John Sheppard. It doesn't really fit with the realistic vibe, but it would at least make a little sense, especially with his ex-wife's story about how his eyes looked like he was a different person one night.
        • The above is actually closest to the explanation that was cut from the game. Originally, the presence of Shelby at the accident was supposed to give Ethan some type of psychic connection to the his mind so that whenever Shelby was kidnapping a victim, Ethan would have his blackouts and would access his mind. Thus, he would fold the origami as Scott did so as well. This also explains why Ethan always went to Carnaby Square. This was cut from the game however, because it was not in line with the game's focus on realism.

The Ending - Gunpoint

• Why did Scott turn a gun on Ethan as he was trying to save Shaun?
  • Probably to hide his identity. The poison Ethan drinks wasn't deadly and, to Scott, Ethan already proved his devotion for his son, so he had no use to him.
  • Who knows? I can think of all sorts of reasons, but my "favourite" one is him wanting to prove that even a father willing to die for his son couldn't save him.
  • It's a wee bit inconsistent, as if Ethan has arrived by himself, Scott doesn't go for his gun, he just talks. He even stands by and lets Ethan shoot him, if Ethan's so inclined.
    • Given what can be gleaned from the ending variation where Scott seems resigned when Ethan threatens him with a gun and offers to let Ethan shoot him, it is possible Scott simply cannot fathom the idea of living once his search is concluded. Finally finding what he is searching is simply that unfathomable to Scott after all these years. While he has spent years trying to be proven wrong and trying to find a father who is willing to do anything to save his son, once confronted with it, he simply cannot tolerate having his worldview be invalidated. He's already a murdering psychopath (albeit one with a warped set of morals), he probably just snapped at the realization that he has no purpose once Ethan completes all the trials.
    • While I personally think the different actions for different endings is more a case of Schrödinger's Gun, that there is a perfectly serviceable bit of Fan Wank, in my opinion. Ta!
      • Slow it down there. I guess this troper just saw it as a form of Sanity Slippage and got carried away explaining it. Ta!
      • Sorry - I'm not sure if what I said came across clearly. Wasn't meant as a snark. What I meant was, while I genuinely think the answer is just the developers scripting different actions depending on the outcome, from an outside, Fanon sense, that explanation works perfectly and is what I'll probably use in my own mind.
  • I think that he does it to validate his feelings. Though he was searching for a father like Ethan, deep down he didn't want to find one just so he wouldn't have to confront himself about his beliefs. He downright tells Madison he feels like a monster for what he's done in The Killer's Place.
  • I saw it more as being because if even Ethan, the man who (depending on how it was played) would kill, die, self-mutilate and literally crawl through broken glass to save his son, couldn't save Shaun, then there was nothing that could have saved John, but if he could then his dad really was responsible and John's death could have been avoided. Of course, I've only just finished the game for the first time, so I haven't seen any other endings, yet.

Evidence

• Why did the police not confiscate the boxes containing the cell phones and origami figures during the investigation?
  • My guess was the parents didn't tell them about them, as it was the only connection/hope they had to saving their child. Yeah, bit of a stretch that over 3 years that not one parent hands over their box of goodies, but whaddyagonnado?
    • Additionally, with the fathers gone on the trials (besides Hassan), all that was left with the mothers was the vaguest of evidence like envelopes and phones. The fathers seems to have taken their boxes with them and most of them disappear, presumably dying in their trials (again, besides Hassan). The mothers might not have caught on to the significance of such small things or even cared after their sons were dead.

Hassan: Then you will understand, Mr. Shelby, that I do not wish to talk about it.

• • Maybe Scott collected all of them shortly after he killed their kids. Like he did with Hassan.
  • It just seems to me that any parent looking for a kidnapped child would rather have the entire police force analyzing the evidence for possible fingerprints, tracing the cell phone calls, etc. rather than trying to figure it out on their own. And the police seemed a bit lax in their evidence collection, though I suppose that's down to a willful refusal to commit more resources to the case due to the fact that the killer kidnapped lower-class children. Really, though, this was the only plot point that bothered me. I just kept thinking "Why didn't the cops take this stuff?"
    • I guess it really comes down to whether or not the cops even knew that the stuff existed at all. Signs seem to point to a fairly large "no", given that it appears that no one came forth with the information to begin with. They either run off with the majority of it to complete their trials (leaving behind only a few scant things for Shelby to collect,) or in the case of the remaining parents, just don't see the point in bothering after the fact since it won't bring the victim back. Only Lauren really takes any type of initiative.
      • And even then, it takes a visit from Scott for her to take any kind of initiative about the murders, as her initial refusal to talk about it with Scott Shelby indicates. (A refusal, that, by the way, can persist throughout her introductory chapter if the player doesn't use the right speech prompts as Shelby.) Actually, that seems to be a recurring thing with Scott; the parents of the killer's victims have to have Scott rush in with a Big Damn Heroes moment before they give him evidence. With Lauren and Hassan, it's because he saved their lives (although it depends with Hassan), and with Susan because she wouldn't have been able to tell anyone else since Scott conveniently showed up as she was attempting suicide.
    • Even if they did, it is implied that many in the police force aren't effective, ergo the need for FBI intervention in the case. Some, like Sam, have been working the case to a dead end but were getting close. It also should be remembered that the Origami killer's associates include many in the criminal underworld willing to kill an officer of the law, as well as the killer himself. Also the killer was a cop, giving him means to access and destroy any evidence they did collect, until his retirement.
• I always thought it was because Scott screened each parent before hand, he specifically wanted a father who would risk anything to save his kids, he could have easily screened out the fathers who would have likely took the cowards way out and went to the police.

Thoughts

• Scott Shelby's thoughts seem to deliberately mislead the player.
  • The problem here is the game lies to you, in a way, telling you that - at any time - L2 will reveal the player's thoughts. It'd be quite a feat for even a Hollywood-style psychopath to commit premeditated murder without, well, thinking about it at all (before and after the Manfred scene) and it's not believable that Shelby can avoid even thinking about his brother when at his grave despite being the motivation for doing unspeakable things to ten-year-old boys. Even ignoring all that, although some of his thoughts have malicious double-meanings like 'I can't just leave her alone', some make no sense; even if you're willing to consider that he's going after a copycat for Lauren's son, he still thinks about 'the investigation' later on for others. Either Shelby knows he's in a game or the game's only letting you hear certain thoughts, and You Never Asked. Makes figuring out the identity of the killer more or less impossible.
    • Some it does seem deliberately misleading, but it is important to note that none of his thoughts are openly contradictory, just cruelly obfuscating on the part of the writer. For instance, he does think about the murder beforehand and after: "I was crazy to let her come with me. She's trying to help out but she just gets in the way.", "Lauren thinks she's about to find the killer. I'm afraid she's going to be disappointed.", "Poor old man. He didn't deserve to go like that", "I hope I didn't leave any prints in Manfred's shop. The last thing I need is to have to start explaining things to the cops", etc. The hints are just mercilessly vague until subsequent playthroughs. His constant use of the term "the investigation" seems to be referring to the police manhunt and his own investigation into Gordi Kramer. Note that he never says he claims to catch the killer, even in his thoughts. Overall, a lot of it seems to be a case of Exact Words.
    • It's no different from the mystery novel The Murder of Roger Ackroyd, in which the murderer is also the narrator, but you don't find that out until the end. You get to see his thoughts and he never thinks: "Whew! Poirot didn't notice that clue I accidentally left!", but that's regarded as one of the best mystery novel twists ever written, whereas doing the same thing here is apparently cheating. Don't quite get that.
      • That character's name, for those curious: James Sheppard. Sounds a bit like John Sheppard, doesn't it?
    • The difference being The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is about a crime that had already been commited and the murderer was watching the events that were going on passively. In this Scott Shelby is taking an active role in the "investigation", commiting further crimes and actually still doing dark deeds that he realistically should be thinking about some of them. His thoughts are far too passive for someone that's still actively doing stuff to influence the direction of the story. The story expects us to believe that he doesn't think about killing a man before or after immediately doing it. This is, to put it lightly, a stretch of believeability. If this were an examination of events that occurred before the game started then it would be a much different circumstance.
      • The issue is that Shelby DOES think about those things during the course of the game. Look at his thought process before killing Manfred, for example. Before: "Lauren thinks she’s about the find the killer. I’m afraid she’s going to be disappointed.” and "I was crazy to let her come with me." are him not only talking about his imminent action but also the risk he is taking by having Lauren there when he's doing it. After: "Poor old man. He didn’t deserve to go like that…" is Shelby expressing remorse. Hell, look at what he says in 'A Visitor' after waking up: "I needed the rest. I havn’t been sleeping well since the murders started up again.". He thinks about the murders throughout the entire game.

Manfred

• The events surrounding Manfred turn into a wall banger after The Reveal, because you are supposed to believe that Shelby runs into the backroom, kills Manfred with a typewriter, calls the police, and runs back out all in the space of 13 seconds and without the person in the same room as him next room over noticing.
  • If the timing is taken literally, Scott has roughly 18 seconds from the time he is out of frame to when we see him again. However, Lauren has already turned her back to him a bit before this, and Shelby turns slightly towards the back office. In the flashback during The Reveal, the process actually is shown to take around 23 seconds. The initial events, as played out in the Manfred chapter, seem to take some liberties with the time passage in order to emulate Lauren's perception of the events and add to the player's confusion. Let's just say that Shelby's distorting the narrative throughout the whole chapter and leave it at that.]]
    • Actually, the above troper may have hit gold. Scott's whole purpose through the game is to destroy evidence and throw off his own pursuers. And the game, with its constant QTE's and "Interactive Drama" angle, actually makes the player as much a pursuer as anyone else. So what does Shelby do about an omnipotent player? Throw him an Interface Screw.
  • It is equally important to note that that at the time of the murder, not only did Shelby have a fair stretch of time, but every single one of the clocks in the shop was going off. Lauren couldn't hear what was happening. Additionally, Scott doesn't need to actually speak to the 911 operator, only dial and leave the line open.
    • Also mind-boggling is the strange competence of the police. They can somehow distinguish your fingerprints or Lauren's among what must be dozens of other sets of fingerprints from customers (granted, antique stores don't tend to have tons of customers, but surely at least a few since Manfred last wiped every single surface down thoroughly), even on the bathroom door, and from that they question you within a couple of hours, without Jayden around to Fingerprint Air.
    • When Scott wipes down the magnifying glass, he only wipes off the lens for some reason. Not only did he bring it over by the handle, but he holds it by the handle while he's wiping it, and still doesn't wipe that part off.

Letter From The Killer

• Ethan receives his letter from the Origami Killer in the Father and Son chapter, if you go through the mail on the table next to the front door, Ethan will read it, and as a result... do nothing. He doesn't react at all to the cryptic and morbid wording of the letter, and you can't do anything except put it down and forget about it. Here's the kicker, though - when Ethan is stressing out in the kitchen after Shaun is kidnapped, he opens the letter AGAIN, for the second time and consequently flips out. It's a mystery to me as to why they even included the letter in Father and Son in the first place.
  • The first time he sees the letter and disregards it could be because he doesn't care about it. As far as he is concerned, it doesn't matter or mean anything to him. The second time he sees it and flips out is because he finally realizes the meaning behind it and thinks he should've acted sooner. It actually appears a third time in The Killer's Place, when Madison looks at the typewriter and sees the Killer has been typing the same message on it. However, she simply ignores it, because she's never seen it before. It's just there as a foreboding message to the player (He only sends those letters to the fathers of children he's about to kidnap. He's typing another one, ergo, he's about to kidnap another child.)
• The letter for the fourth trial tells Ethan to kill a man and then "send a picture." Wouldn't this mean that he'd have to have the killer's phone number, or address, or SOMETHING? And in turn, wouldn't that provide a huge case-cracking clue as to who the killer is, or at least someone who is in cahoots with him?
  • The phone was specifically designed to only send information to the little system the Killer set up (specifically that box Madison uses to break out of the lair), so it doesn't send it to a phone number. Besides that, the phone could be set up to fry itself in the event anyone tries to tamper with it and/or send an alert message to the system that it's been compromised and should be disconnected from the network. It wouldn't be that hard to do since the phone is only required to send snippits of code and one photograph and recieve letters, leaving a lot of room to build such defenses. Plus given how the head of the police's investigation is Blake, he'd most likely ignore it.

Jason

• The scene where Jason dies. The car stopped right when Ethan shields his son completely and falls to the ground. How does that kill Jason and leave Ethan in a coma?
  • Blame the Discretion Shot. Apparently the original accident scene was supposed to be much more graphic.
  • Ethan may have taken the impact, but the inertia still transfers to Jason. Considering that Ethan is a full-grown man and Jason is... well, not, Jason could either have died from the impact with the car, impact with the ground, or later on from injuries sustained from both.
  • The physics don't add up. The car came to an almost complete stop within a second (1.5 s, tops), meaning it wasn't traveling at full speed (google "braking distance"). When we see Ethan and Jason lying on the ground in the flashback late in the game, they are about 0.5 m away from the car, meaning that the inertia wasn't that big to begin with, either, otherwise they'd have rolled much further away. In fact, the bump was barely enough to knock a child over. Also, inertia doesn't transfer between physical bodies, the momentum does. And the rate which it transfers at depends on the rigidity and elasticity of said bodies. Humans are soft and squishy (90% water), so the momentum (which, as discussed above, wasn't that big to begin with) would not have transferred directly to Jason but be dispersed across Ethan's body and Jason would only get a fraction of it. The only explanation for Jason's death are coincidential injuries sustained during the fall: they say you can break your neck falling from a chair. But then, what was the point of a dramatic car bump?
    • The first troper has the answer. The scene was subject to Executive Meddling.
  • I was under the assumption that under the discretion shot, Ethan actually was hit by the car and ended up crushing Jason, which would explain why he feels so responsible for the death of Jason, because he (accidentally) killed him.
    • He doesn't have the mass to crush a child that age. Break a collarbone, maybe, but not to inflict lethal damage. unless you meant "crush him in a bear hug", which a) requires much more raw physical strength than he has and b) is a highly unlikely unconscious reaction from someone being hit in the back.
  • If you watch the scene again, Ethan was holding Jason face-to-face. It's possible that when they were hit by the car, Ethan took the brunt of the blow (hence being in a coma) but Jason may have hit the back of his head on the ground. For a kid that young, getting their head slammed into asphalt could be deadly.
  • That borders on Fridge Brilliance in that it explains some of Ethan's guilt a little more.

Ethan's Gun

• When Ethan goes to the train station to get the box that the Origami Killer left him, we see him walk through a metal detector with a security guard standing by it on his way into the locker room. In that case, how the hell did he get the box back out since it had a gun in it?
  • Because he doesn't leave the same way he comes in. If you look around the locker room, there is an additional exit with no metal detector.
    • That leaves another question. Either the exit is two-way, leaving the metal detector entirely superfluous, or it's one-way, which means the Origami Killer would be unable to enter with the box.
      • Exit is one way. Metal detector is there to stop people from bringing stuff in. So, that leaves the second question of how the Killer brings the box in. Easiest explanation? Given the sheer amount of money that the Killer is tossing around, a bribe to look the other way is certainly not out of the realm of possibility. Additionally, in most states, private investigators are allowed to carry firearms. Shelby carries one on him most of the time. This might account for how he could pass through the metal detector with a weapon. Especially since as a retired peace officer, he may have received endorsement to carry a concealed weapon in addition to obtaining any permits he may have needed.
      • I don't recall the exit being alarmed, and if it's not then it's as simple as having someone hold the door open from the inside. Remember sneaking into movie theaters as a kid?

Madison's Reaction to The Name

• When the Origami Killer's mother tells Madison her son's name, why is Madison so shocked? It's just a name she's never heard before.
  • Probably because she finally found out who it was. The Doylistic explanation is that they wanted to keep her reaction ambiguous so you wouldn't be sure if she knew the person or not.
    • Additionally, there are people who are aware that Shelby is investigating the OK case. Blake, for instance, knows this, and while this make sense because they were former co-workers, Madison might have been well aware of Shelby's own investigation by virtue of her own.
  • Shelby was a decorated cop in the same city which Madison covers. She may have met him through normal circumstances before.

Madison's Phonebook

• How did Madison get Norman's number?
  • I believe that Cage handwaved it as due to her skills as a Intrepid Reporter. Take note that if she calls Jayden, she *does* acknowledge that they've never met. The obvious choice for how this can be is that Sam, with all of his Voice with an Internet Connection powers, pulled some connections offscreen.

Mad Jack, Guns, Fights, and Other Stuff

• In the Mad Jack chapter, Jayden leaves a gun in the glove compartment of his car. Then, when Mad Jack holds him at gunpoint, he pulls Jayden's gun out of his coat pocket]]. But THEN, after he manages to climb out of the car before it gets crushed, he's obviously not carrying the gun from the glove compartment. But he pulls another gun out of his coat! [[Mind Screw Does Jayden have three guns or is it just a magic teleporting one?
  • Actually, he does have two guns, apparently: you can do the Mad Jack chapter without ending in the compactor if you're good enough, and he'll have a gun that's not the one in the glove compartment.
    • To clarify: It would seem that Jayden carries one on his person and keeps a spare in his glovebox. Mad Jack holds Jayden up and takes the one on his person, and Jayden can either disarm and arrest Mad Jack with his gun or is otherwise is forced to use the spare one in his glovebox to escape from the car crusher.
  • Speaking of odd guns, the gun that comes in the shoebox that Ethan finds counts too. When heading off for the Bear trial, Ethan sticks it in his pocket. It is never seen again until he heads off to do the Shark trial... where he pulls it out of the box and sticks it in his pocket. Again. Then it disappears again when Ethan goes to the warehouse and has to save Shaun - so he can't Shoot The Lock like Jayden can. But if he goes to the warehouse alone, he can shoot Shelby with it - and in the Origami Blues ending he commits suicide with it. Are all guns in the Heavy Rain universe Schrodingers Guns?
  • How did Scott make himself look considerably thinner during the fight with Norman in Paco's club? Was he wearing a fatsuit for the rest of the game or what?
    • Actually, the guy who killed Paco had the same build as Scott. At any rate, if you're observant and manage to catch a look at the hairdo on the killer's head when he kills Paco Mendez, you can see that it looks exactly the same as Scott's hair.
  • Scott's all concerned about leaving fingerprints at the scene of Manfred's murder because he's worried about him and Lauren looking guilty by being at the scene of the crime. Indeed, if he fails to wipe all the prints in time, he gets pulled into the station for questioning. Yet, he does nothing to conceal his involvement in the massacre of 20 armed guards in the final confrontation with Kramer... including apparently leaving Lauren's car parked inside the remains of Kramer's billard room... and yet he expresses no concern about this, and the cops never give him any trouble over it either.
    • Not that this is always the case, but in the more ideal scenarios, it would seem that gets a bit of a Hand Wave given that Scott is either dead by the end of the next day, anyways, or otherwise on the run from the cops.
  • When (and if) Ethan escapes Blake and Jayden in Fugitive, why doesn't Jayden, the FBI investigator and the man with the Ari, look for clues on the crime scene?
    • For that matter, why didn't anybody seem to notice when Madison and Ethan were crossing the subway tracks in the same mission?
    • I'm sure they did. But what would you do in the shoes of a bystander?
  • So, Shelby keeps his victims in this huge pit that slowly fills up with water. And it's said that it takes three or four days for them to die, depending on rain fall. Okay, so.... do these children not sleep for three or four days? Wouldn't they fall over from exhaustion at some point and drown while unconscious? Do they somehow sleep on the surface of the rising water?
    • Actually, considering it's cold enough to warrant at least two layers of clothing to stay comfortable outside... It's amazing how the children don't die from hypothermia within several hours.
    • Consider dehydration as well. No one can survive even a few days without a single drop of water. So the killer must have been interfering in his own plot at least a bit by helping the boys survive just a little longer, either to save himself some grief, and/or to give the dads more time with which to complete the trials. Either that, or it was dirty water for the poor boys that did try to cling to survival until they passed out from exhaustion. Fridge Brilliance and Fridge Horror.
    • Also, if you have Jayden collect enough evidence at the crime scene and then examine the kid's body, he notes from the ARI bloodwork that the kid was suffering from severe exhaustion. Sheer fear kept them alive until there was no way to drown. Even if a kid did fall asleep by accident, it's likely he would've woken back up immediately from going under.
  • And while we're talking about Shelby, how does a detective, who wasn't making all that much money as a cop and is virtually assured to make even less as a private investigator, afford to set up this elaborate series of traps, including paying a garage to hold a car in the lot for years. Not to mention the technical skills to build and program a series of GPS units and automated systems that are at least sophisticated enough to recognize when a person has performed a specific task successfully. Did the Origami Killer go to ITT in his spare time?
    • Well, he was in good hands with all of his criminal friends under his alias. Maybe they all offered him services/payed him money for the protection from the law?
  • During the Butterfly challenge, how come Ethan doesn't simply sweep the glass away instead of crawling over it? Also in the condenser room, there's a clear path around it with pipes on the other side to act as a ladder to avoid going through the power transformers altogether.
    • Sweeping the glass? That would take a pretty long time, seeing as how that particular vent is pretty long and there is lots of glass on the ground almost the entire way through. Sure, he could do it, but there are quite a few things going against it. It won't protect your body when you're rounding the corners. To see how much glass he'd have to sweep away, he'd burn through all of his matches faster than you can say go, and so he would likely get lost in the vent and die from inhaling the gas. There's the off chance that he could cut himself on the glass while sweeping it away. And then you have to remember he's also fighting against time throughout pretty much the entire game to complete all of the trials and get to Shaun.
    • I think a better question might be 'How did the glass get there?'. The Killer is a bit too big to fit through the vents, and (as far as I know) it would be nearly impossible to just drop glass in to the vents and hope it gets blown all over the place. Also, regarding the pipe alternate route, the only reason I can think of it is that Ethan isn't good at lateral thinking.
      • Most likely the killer paid someone else to do it, maybe even killing them after they were done to ensure their silence. He used a lot of hired guns throughout the game, so it's pretty much in character for him.
    • If the electricity was arcing around like that, how the hell did Ethan avoid it? If it's jumping to nearby things that conduct electricity, it's going to jump to anything nearby that conducts electricity. Including Ethan.
  • Where did Blake get his gun in the "Under Arrest" chapter? He doesn't have a belt and shoulder holster.
  • Okay, so Gordi Kramer was in fact responsible for one of the seven deaths attributed to the Origami Killer, yes? Gordi, however, was not the Origami Killer and was just trying to cover up his own sick game. He would likely not have A. used the same origami figure (the dog), B. used the same species of orchid, and C. killed at six inches of rain, as the real killer would have. A and B could potentially be handwaved as him having read the details of the case, though in general law enforcement agencies do not release such details in order to flush out any would be copycatters. Whatever the case though, Gordi could not possibly have known about the six inches of rain, as that was only discovered upon Jayden doing the profile. My question, then, is this. Why the hell didn't Jayden catch, right from the beginning, that one of the deaths was not in fact the work of the Origami Killer, but just of some copycat?
    • Gordi Kramer's father had his fingers in everything, and knew about Gordi's obsession; it's entirely probable that he bribed someone who would have known more than was released to the public, explaining the knowledge of orchids and origami. If you're obsessed with a serial killer and have the police connections to get more access to information than the public has, or even if you don't, you may notice by yourself that the murders always happen in the fall, and that a new victim tends to pop up around the time that the rainfall adds up to roughly six inches. Really, Norman is just more observant than the city's cops, who seem to be really jaded fans of the shortcut and certainly not the sharpest tools in the shed (nor the most dedicated, nor the least corrupt) in any case. Look at the highly angry and incompetent Blake, for instance, and how Shelby uncovers a lot of evidence that the cops never found.
• The convenience store robbery scene. The guy holds up the shop with a Desert Eagle, which is probably worth more money than the contents of the till.
  • So he stole it and couldn't fence it for some reason, or inherited it and didn't want to sell it.

Fired From The Police Force

• Why is Captain Perry fired with Blake for killing Ethan?
  • Must be because he declares to the press that he is the Origami Killer without getting his confession.
    • Plus he resigns if Shawn dies, so it's most likely because people feel he's incompetent at his job, what with 8 or nine kids dying on his watch from a serial killer.

The Reveal

• Is this troper the only one who found the reveal to be too early? Even though it was pretty close to the game's conclusion, even then it felt really out of place. I guess it gave us time to adjust that one of our beloved main characters happened to be the Origami Killer, but I think it would've been better if it happened at the warehouse. Ethan, Madison and/or Norman arrive there and BAM! Out of the shadows steps Shelby. He then begins to go through a lengthy explanation on his backstory before the respective fight scenes happen. I loved how the game kept up a trend of having Shelby deceive the player constantly, so I was disappointed when about 3/4 of the way through, it just dropped like that. Instead scenes are dragged out where Ethan, Madison and Norman deduce where the warehouse is AFTER we know Shelby is the killer. It would've been nice to see Shelby playing along also, pretending like he was trying to find it.
  • Err, you don't find out that it's Shelby until after Ethan and Jayden have either found the warehouse or failed to find it. I have no idea why you think it was the other way around, first Ethan does his last test, and you get to see if you figured out where the warehouse is. Then Jayden's scene is next, and if you figure it out then you get confirmation of it's location, then you get the flashback then you get the reveal. Madison is on her way to the killer's place by that point too. Madison had no way of getting to it without going to Shelby's place since Ethan wouldn't let her know to keep her safe and Jayden isn't the type to tell reporters he's never met where the most wanted man in the state is hiding. Also, it was two scences before the warehouse reveal, that's not 3/4s of the way through, that's 7/8s. Plus we wouldn't have gotten that scene of him burning all the evidence, which I thought was quite powerful. Plus, "lengthy explanation of his backstory?" Shawn was drowning!! Ethan would have just said "I don't give a fuck, where's my son!" Not to mention that if you failed to get there with anybody else, there would be no big reveal, but you would have been able to figure out that Shelby was the killer because he didn't stop it and didn't appear, hence ruining the reveal.

Shaun's ordeal

• So, erm, about 3-4 days pass between Shaun's kidnapping and rescue/death. This whole time, the kid has been standing in a pool of water that grew progressively deeper in wet clothes in the middle of a freaking late-autumn rain season. By the most optimistic estimations, how long would he last before dying of hypothermia? And here is another question: during the last 72 hours, he apparently didn't need any sleep at all, since otherwise he would fall down and drown. Also, I don't imagine the Killer was feeding him all this time. How tough must a kid be to survive 72 hours in cold water without sleep or food? And apparently, all other kids lasted that long before him.
  • Going 72 hours without sleep would be taxing, but certainly within the realm of plausibility. The hypothermia thing is a real problem though.
  • While Scott may have a warped set of morals, it's obvious that he wants the fathers to save their children. Otherwise he wouldn't give them the trials that eventually spell out where they're being held. Because of this, my guess is that he doesn't leave Shaun in the storm drain all the time - only for the pictures sent to Ethan upon completing a trial, and in the final few hours. Even if that's not the case and they stay in the drain the whole time, then the children would pass out from either lack of sleep, lack of food, or hypothermia, and subsequently drown.
  • Then Shaun is one stupid effing kid. And all the other kids, too. When Norman reviews the evidence of the previous murders, he notes that there are never any signs of struggle. It is explained by Scott pretending to be a policeman when he abducted his victims. However, if he let them out of the drain for prolonged periods of time, you'd think that a sane kid would add two and two, figure out the guy was a fake/psycho, and at least try to escape. At least one of them should have, statistically, had some balls.
    • They should also, statistically have had some brains. I don't care how insecure you are, no 10 year old I have met would get in a car with someone who is dressed as a cop unless their parent or someone they know is with them. Take Shaun: His father blacks out, possibly in front of him and starts walking away. Do you A) Go back to your home which is extremely nearby B) Follow your trusted love one or C) Follow some cop away from where your dad is? That whole scene, while poingnant, really made me wonder about Shaun's intelligence. And weren't there loads of other people who he may have known at the park who he could have gone to?
• You know, it just occurred to me: physical damage or not, mentally, Shaun is going to be traumatized a all hell. Probably for the rest of his life. I mean... he'll probably never be able to take a bath again. He'll get panic attacks whenever there's a light drizzle. He'll never, ever again trust a fat policeman. None of the endings make any reference to such psychological damage. Either Shaun is perfectly fine or he's dead.

ARI

• In a game world that appears to be a very realistic mirror of this day and age, the presence of the ARI set really baffles me. This is some really, really, really advanced technology. Way more advanced than would be plausible to claim came out of some top-secret government facility. Maybe the black markets of ["Extropia"], but modern day America? It's a pair of glasses and gloves that contains more sensory equipment than the starship Enterprise, is capable of creating a variety completely realistic, fully interactive virtual reality worlds literally at the wave of a hand, may or may not contain an artificial intelligence, and in one interpretation of the ending, is capable of brain uploading. No world in which the creation of such technology is possible could look so much like modern day america. At the very minimum, people would be going around with cellphones a hundred times more advanced than anything available today. Maybe cars would be driving themselves or something.

Anyway, yeah. This technology feels completely out of place and Norman should feel bad for having it.

• • Yeah, it's especially stupid when you realize they've dropped the paranormal connection stuff that would explain Ethan's blackouts because it "didn't fit with the realism of the game".
  • This troper also wondered why no one else ever asked about ARI, or why Jayden had his sunglasses on in the pouring rain in the dark, for instance.

Meta

I'm sorry, but how is this a game? When a game uses QTEs as an occasional mechanic, people bitch about Press X to Not Die. But this is basically one really long quicktime event, and it gets inordinate amounts of praise. It bothers me. I just can't get my head around it.

• And your point? That's an opinion, and not everyone may share it. Though you have to at least agree on one thing, isn't it nice seeing something that isn't "First person kill-a-thon Murder Shooter 2130"? Jokes aside, there's no denying that it's nice to see something try and be unique.
  • Yes, I know that it's an opinion. It's my opinion, and it bothers me. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, it's something that Just Bugs Me. And I do agree that it's nice to see someone trying something that isn't a first-person shooter. I don't play first-person shooters (I'm terrible at them) and it's great that developers are trying new things. But I just don't get the appeal of this game.
    • Here's the appeal for me. Firstly, I love QTE's. The combination of quick reaction time and physical dexterity (and sometimes just plain endurance, for parts like The Trial of the Butterfly, which involved holding a surprising number of buttons for extended actions), is something inherently enjoyable for me. I also feel that those same controls transferred well to general exploration, and really gave me the feel of a text-based adventure game; with so many options for where and how to interact with my surroundings. And because I found the world immersive and pacing slow enough that I could get to know the characters, I found that I really cared about the main characters. It upped the ante for the gameplay, and pushed me to play even better. When I got the good ending on my first time through, there was some serious pride at having played the game well. I don't feel the need to talk about any new ground that Heavy Rain did or didn't break, and I think that the massive press exposure might have lead to too much general hype (and the inevitable backlash). I easily understand how it mightn't be everyone's thing, because it really is a slow game, with unusual controls and a dependance on an emotional connection from the player. But then, can you understand how some of us might go for that kind of thing? :D
• Let's ask The Other Wiki.
  • "A game is a structured activity, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool." Is HR a structured activity? I say, yes, you go through a number of scenes/levels in a certain (changeable) sequence and the rules of winning/losing each level are universal. Is it usually undertaken for enjoyment? Judging by how many people enjoyed it, yes. Is it educational? To some people, perhaps.
  • "Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction." Goal of HR? Save Shaun Mars and stop the Origami Killer. Rules? Simplistic, but they are there: the aforementioned Press X to Not Die. Challenge? I cannot speak for everyone here, but I failed roughly 50% of all press-X moments on first playthrough but got better at it on replays. Interaction? Not only the aforementioned press-X moments, but also choice of dialogue and movement that does determine who lives and who dies in the end of the story, giving you a good or bad ending, hence, here is you win/loss condition (see above under Goals).
  • "A video game is an electronic game that involves interaction with a user interface to generate visual feedback on a video device." Electronic? You bet. User interface? Controller. Interaction? You press buttons, either after a period of deliberation or not (which is much more like Real Life, anyway). Visual feedback? You see the results of your actions.
• From all of the above, I would say that Heavy Rain is a game. Not the kind we got used to in the past decades but still a challenging, interactive experience with a set goal that you can either achieve or fail.
  • OP: I guess what bothers me most is the shear amount of praise it gets, for basically being a movie you can influence. As an example, Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots got some hate for the sheer amount of cutscenes. It wasn't universal, but it was a notable minus for a lot of people. The basic gameplay of Heavy Rain seems to be a bunch of really long cutscenes that you can influence. The God of War sequels get hate for using a lot of quick-time events. Again, not universal, but a BIG issues a lot of people had. The way you influence cutscenes in Heavy Rain is through on-screen prompts in the vein of quick-time events. What do all three of these games have in common? They're Playstation 3 exclusives. It's baffling to me how problems people had with two highly regarded, and well-established franchises are the main selling points for a new property and no one seems to have anything but praise for it.
    • That is actually pretty explainable. The first games in the MGS and GOW franchises lured in a certain target audience with promises of a certain kind of gameplay (I haven't played either of them, so I cannot specify what kind of gameplay exactly)--and delivered, judging by their success. However, when the designers shifted the gameplay focus towards different points (cutscenes and QTE, respectively), many fans of the original were dissatisfied and, as per usual, made these new features the scapegoat, naturally accentuating their negative sides (of which there are a plenty, nobody argues that). Heavy Rain, on the other hand, never promised its target audience anything but an interactive movie and QTEs--and delivered just that. Hence, the fans got what they expected and praised it, too.
    • I can see that your point is well thought out, but I have one problem with it: It only tells me why people don't hate the game. It does nothing to tell me why people like it. Whether it delivered what it was supposed to or not, it still seems like a total snore to actually play. It's a great experiment on different game styles, and it's good that developers are branching out and trying new things, but it just doesn't look like it's fun. Which, more than anything listed above, is what a game should be.
    • Two Words: Tastes differ.
    • Yes, I understand that tastes differ. But "Your tastes are different than mine" is not an explanation of why you like a game. All I'm really looking for here is for a fan of the game to tell me what they actually like about it; what about it that makes it fun to play.
    • Ah, so that was your actualy question? Sorry, it wasn't obvious. :D Well, I don't know whether I am that big of a fan but I really enjoyed the game because: the whole "how far would you go to save someone you love" dilemma really appealed to me (due to somewhat similar events in my own life); I liked the characters, though mainly Norman and Lauren; I liked the moody, rainy atmosphere of the game; I was impressed by the occurences of Fridge Brilliance in the story; I was also impressed by how fluidly the story adapted to the various blunders I made (e.g. I was almost sure that Ethan's first test, the highway ride, was a doomed mission from the start until it dawned to me that I could have beaten it, just like everything else). Well, I see now that most points I name seem to concern the writing... As for actual gameplay, I particularly liked how the physical challenges that were supposed to be hard IRL were also hard to pull off on the controller (I still shudder remembering how Ethan crawled between the electrified wires), while simple things (like opening doors) became almost automatic towards the end. In fact, it was done so well that I (usually an obsessive perfectionist in gaming) almost always accepted my less-than-perfect completion of a scene instead of replaying (unless it resulted in something I really, really didn't want like Lauren's death), since it gave the game a much more realistic feel.
    • Just to add as a fan of the game, i personally think this is one of the best games ever. Personally i think it combines great story with immersive gameplay. i mean QTEs are annoying, but at least thats all it is, instead of action games that throw them in for whatever reason. This game really got me down at an emotional level. And i mean during the more intense parts my heart was pounding my hands were shaking i was literally on the edge of my seat. One scene in particular *cough cough lizard trial cough* was so intense that afterwards i saved turned off my ps3 and didnt touch the game for a week. And i thought "Wow a game got me that hard. Awesome"
  • I personally think the quick time events add to the drama in this game, because it immerses you very well and makes the action scenes very intense. QTEs are annoying when it's tacked on to a Hack and Slash game like God of War, not in games like Heavy Rain.
  • Then again, this game is not Press X to Not Die, it is a Press X for something different to happen. Its only when QTE is totally unexpected (in the middle of a cutscene and no warning) or when QTE results in an instant game over that they become hated.
  • What actually got me hooked, was that the game was consistent in that you COULD FAIL, and the story would unfold accordingly. Unlike other games with QTEs where failure means "game over" and do the scene again until you're successful... or throw your gamepad outtta the window in frustration :P
  • Heavy Rain has the most engaging story I've ever encountered in a video game, and a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise play such a game are drawn in by the story. That said, I liked it because it was challenging and, as I said, engaging, and yes, fun. I enjoyed the 6-10 hours of QTEs simply because of those tow things. Also, it felt realistic to me, much more so than just pressing X to swing your sword. You actually had to move the sticks and press buttons to match what you were trying to do. Actually I liked the God of War QTEs because of that.
  • For this Troper, the original appeal was Press X to Not Die PERMANENTLY. I really liked how in this game Game Over was replaced with a continuing story that you really influence. Many games also fail to challenge the player with QTEs and instead act as a way to make cutscenes interactive without working out a way to incorporate it into the story (AC2 and Black Ops come to mind), whereas in Heavy Rain the QTEs provide a real challenge (The Electrified Wires had me standing up and hammering my controller in tension). The story was hugely engaging, and despite the fact that I had heard the Shelby was the killer, watching the story unravel was hugely enjoyable, especially when The Reveal came around. The atmosphere created by the stellar music and acting, that can be likened to Uncharted, is brilliant. And I was generally pleased with my ending, despite the fact that Lauren died and Jayden got ARI hallucinations.
  • The game is basically a purely choice based RPG, basically Mass Effect with a much more open ended story. I don't think it was a really spectacular game because it was so focused on QTE's, but it was certainly proof-of-concept of an immersive story and character driven game instead of being pure action.