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Guardians

Dad is going to be used as a material in a first guardian at some point.

  • Look at the first guardians and how they were created so far: Doc Scratch was made partially from Lil' Cal, an object with significance to Bro and Dave. Bec has Harley's genes, and is thus linked to Jade and her Grandpa. Gcat hasn't had anything confirmed yet, but I would bet money he's got something to do with Jaspers. So, what is there a significant link to in John's life that would be sentient enough to form a first guardian? Dad. Any other links John has to someone or something who is not a player in a session are to non-sentient objects, and Dad is mysterious enough to work.
    • All known First Guardians are based on non-sentient subservient things ie puppets an pets. While it isn't entirely clear, there is probably a significant reason behind that that simply hasn't been explained yet.
      • Consider what we originally learned about the source of Scratch's omniscience, though. That seems to imply that "intelligent" First Guardians are, at the very least, not exactly unique.

Bro's glasses actually have an Auto Responder in them...

  • We probably will never know.
  • Doubtful, though, considering that Bro doesn't show any signs of possessing future tech beyond his rocket board.
    • And Dirk himself outright says much of his tech isn't really anything he made but just stuff that exists in the future.

Dad was a victim of Betty Crocker's brainwashing.

We've seen that Betty Crocker uses subliminal messages on Alpha Earth. Clearly she's more powerful there than she was on Beta Earth, but she may have attempted brainwashing there anyway. Nanna and John were unaffected, but Dad (who probably took up baking in Nanna's memory without learning the truth about The Batterwitch) fell right into it, and ended up obsessed with baking.

  • At this point, it depends on what Nannasprite meant by "the witch was not human".

First Guardians always travel back in time after being created, and always die or cease to exist shortly after "catching up" with the moment of their creation.

In this fashion, they serve as guardians of the timeline that leads to their existence, intervening to preserve the Stable Time Loops it is based upon--not necessarily out of a sense of duty but rather out of simple self-preservation. They can't come into being if the timeline becomes Doomed.

After the point of their creation, there is nothing enforcing their good behavior, so a First Guardian's ultimate purpose is always tied to their inevitable demise. (Bec ensuring Jade's entry and then being overwritten by Jadesprite, Doc Scratch being an excellent host, etc.)

Lord English is essentially a shameless exploitation of these two conditions: a second entity bearing the First Guardian code metamorphoses from the corpse of the first, satisfying the "must die" requirement at the moment of his creation. Since this takes place at the end of the universe and Lord English is technically the same being as Doc Scratch (except not), he has no Protectorate assigned to him and may satisfy the "must travel back in time in a Stable Time Loop" requirement in any arbitrary fashion he pleases. The result: a being with First Guardian-level omnipotence and no timeline to preserve--absolute power with no limitations whatsoever.

(This is also the reason for Lord English's lack of omniscience--he doesn't have a set timeline to preserve. For him, the future is not an unbroken chain of cause and effect, but a blank canvas.)

GCat killed Frigglish/Jaspers to enable his own creation.

  • As a First Guardian, he's responsible for encouraging his own creation. Jaspers' death enables him to be sampled for ectobiology.
    • This is almost certainly at least indirectly true, as First Guardians seem to take action in order to preserve the Stable Time Loops upon which the timeline is based. Jaspers' death might not be a prequisite to getting his paradox slime, but it's still a requirement of the timeline that leads up to GCat's creation.
      • Death has already been shown to not be a prerequisite. In fact, no ectobiological sample has been taken from something dead yet.
        • The point was probably more that something needs to happen to force the machines to create paradox slime rather than just appearify the target. In other words, death isn't a prerequisite, but Jaspers' death may be.

Mr. Crocker remembers the Beta World.

He, out of all the guardians, has not changed. This makes him stand out; If he was the only one without a change, this likely could mean that he still retains the old memories he had from the Beta World. Unfortunately, this would involve a bit of Fridge Horror, as the recent watching of Jane's "Mailsplosion" would bring back unknown, painful memories of a similar incident somewhere in his past.

Plus, it'd give a whole new reason behind his name being Mr. Crocker: Nobody but him knows about the Old Universe. Nobody'd believe him, either.

  • FAIRIES!
  • Remembering the Beta universe would invite unavoidable comparisons to the Signless/Sufferer, except Dad was not ectobiologically created, and Hussie likes to extend these metaphors as far as they can go.
  • Probably not; he's actually not even genetically similar to Mr. Egbert and they're completely separate entities who just happen to be similar. Besides, he's not a player and the Sufferer was unique. Also Hussie probably isn't aware of The Fairly OddParents as he was already an adult during the timespan it aired.

Once in the Alpha Session, Alpha Dad and Alpha Rose Lalonde (Mom Lalonde) will fight the Batterwitch

Okay, remember when Jack got the ring and fought Bro in the Beta Universe? Well Her Imperious Condescension seems to be filling Jack's role of breaking the session, so it's likely inevitable that she'll fight one or more of the Guardians at some point. Fighting Dad makes sense since the two are related (via adoption), while Alpha!Rose will presumably still fight with knitting needles - weapons that resemble those used by The Handmaid/The Demoness.

Also it means she'll probably kill them. And Alpha!Dave.

  • Jossesd, the Batter Witch already killed Alpha Dave and Rose (at least according to Dirk), plus Alpha Ben Stiller and "Childish Gambino".
    • The only ray of light to this theory depends on whether or not Mom Lalonde is used to prototype a sprite. However, with no prototyping towers on Derse and Prospit it remains to be seen whether any prototyping will take place or not.

All First Guardians serve Lord English

(This is actually a relocated discussion from the Headscratchers page.)

"First Guardians serve English first and foremost, and the planet secondarily. Notice how Doc Scratch's "protection" and Bec or God Cat's really only boils down to keeping the players alive before the session starts and setting up events for the session to begin."

  • We can't really make assumptions about the first guardians' relationship with Lord English. While it's entirely possible that Bec and/or GCat are allied to Lord English there is nothing in the text that implicitly or explicitly says that, other than the fact a single one of them is. Just because Doc Scratch is his servant doesn't mean necessarily that all first guardians are.
    • There's overwhelming evidence First Guardians are designed to serve Lord English (Green Sun powers between both of them, Guardians encourage Sburb, must die in order to bring English into the universe), and virtually nothing against it. Not even Bec's sacrifice is really an example against it either, as he technically lives on in Jack, PM, and Jade, any of whom could end up manifesting Lord English. It has not been outright stated, but it is intended to be obvious, much like Betty Crocker's identity.
      • Each of your 3 points of "overwhelming" evidence are irrelevant. First, the fact that the Green Sun powers all First Guardians stands as a fact on its own. There is no evidence the Green Sun empowers Lord English or is in any way linked to Lord English save that it was yet another prerequisite for Doc Scratch to exist, since he is a First Guardian. Second, FG's encouraging Sburb is not directly relevant to Lord English. It is only flawed sessions that will host Lord English. Doc Scratch says that LE's "calling card" is a glitched session in which the players were spawned in another session, hinting that there are normal sessions that do not allow LE in -- yet these sessions must have First Guardians as well since all planets with intelligent life are destined to have one. In fact, it seems that DS himself is specifically a requirement for LE and not just any First Guardian, because he says, "Instances of myself have spawned in countless universes, and my objective is always the same. I have never once failed to complete this objective, and I never will." Third, according to Word of God DS was still alive up until the point that LE burst out of him; his death was a consequence, not a prerequisite.
      • Point by point: 1) Yes it is; check English's birth again, he summons his coat with an image of the Green Sun. 2) Flawed sessions are unable to complete the game; infants not being from that session are just a symptom of that. In fact part of the Pre-Scratch trolls fixing their session was to outright make a deal with Echidna and bring a First Guardian to their planet. As for the "instances of myself" line, it's not beyond logical thought that Doc, and by extension First Guardians, would naturally take different forms for different planets, while their general characteristics (white, god powers, no face, etc) remain the same. Given every session shown thus far has needed a First Guardian, it seems that they're vital to the game, and there's no evidence of sessions being successful without them 3) Essentially this one just argues semantics, the true point being that a First Guardian must die in order for Lord English to manifest.
      • The only real evidence we've seen is that Doc Scratch must die in order for Lord English to manifest. Considering we've never seen another instance of Lord English coming into being, nor another instance of a First Guardian dying, there is absolutely no reason to assume that all First Guardians are capable of manifesting Lord English through death. You're basing a correlation on a single instance and generalising the circumstances of the only manifestion of Lord English we've seen. It's true that First Guardians seem necessary for the game, but that has nothing to do with Lord English. Also, if you're arguing that GCat is Lord English' ally, then it would be working alongside Betty Crocker, which does not seem to be the case.
      • We've seen three First Guardians. Doc Scratch aside since clearly he works for English, Bec and GCat have helped the nascent sessions get started, and protected the players from death. Look at them as similar to Dave and Aradia's reset functions, to protect the Alpha timeline. The end result of Bec's actions was the destruction of the human universe, which is well in line with English's motives. While GCat is still largely an unknown, it's not contradictory for him to be serving Lord English and yet helping Jane survive the Condesce's murder attempts, which is what you implied. Even Doc helped keep the players alive (mostly), before their entry. And keep in mind too there's no indication there are multiple iterations of Doc Scratch! The one thing that genuinely makes him unique and alive, the genetic code all First Guardians have, is present in GCat and Bec, as well as multiple shared traits like a blank white appearance, etc. They are naturally less intelligent (not being omniscient), but they absolutely have mysterious agendas that still haven't been fully revealed or explained.
        • If you look only at the end results, then by that logic every single character has served Lord English's goals so far. You can't ascribe Bec's actions to some sort of obvious motive to serve Lord English just off of that. The most you can say is that they've acted to preserve the alpha timeline. Second, there is explicit indication that there are multiple iteration of Doc Scratch by his own words, linked above. Third, [we're getting off topic from the original discussion this was pulled from].
        • Fair enough; but just as a final note as I'm genuinely a little frustrated by your cyclical logic, continuing to argue points I thought I already demonstrated evidence against. Doc's comments never were shown to apply specifically to 1:1 copies of himself, and there's plenty of overlap with Doc and the other First Guardians, far more similarities in fact than differences, and at any rate, trusting the words of Doc at face value is a little too trusting as well, given the Green Sun plot. You're welcome to believe what you like, but this is one of those ideas that to me at least seems to be one of the Untwists that Homestuck occasionally has. Much like the dreambubble afterlife discussion above, there's plenty of evidence for both sides and neither side has concretely been proven to be conclusively correct.
    • I've tried my best to offer counter arguments, but you haven't listened. That's why I keep going over them. Your "overwhelming evidence" boils down to a few shaky arguments.
      1) They share the same power source and FG genetic code, and this should imply the same motives, ignoring any other contributing factors to their creation (e.g. Lil' Cal) or the behavior of other intelligent characters that draw from the same power source (e.g. Jade).
      2) Acting to preserve the Alpha timeline when the Alpha timeline results in Lord English's summoning inherently means that this was your primary goal all along. We should assume there is no other valid reason to wish to protect the kids or preserve the session beyond bringing Lord English eventually into the universe it creates.
      3) Doc Scratch is the model we should use for all guardians since he's the only one who explains his motives. Since his death was necessary to summon Lord English, the death of a First Guardian (which he is) is necessary, thus the death of any First Guardian will suffice. Any references to other iterations of himself must necessarily refer to any other First Guardian and not to a subset of First Guardians.
      4) But, if something Doc Scratch says might contradict this theory, remember that he is a scoundrel and take his words with a grain of salt, even though he's never outright lied, and there's little reason to do so to the audience. (e.g. Dismiss outright what he said about Lord English's calling card in the A1 session and any implications it has about other sessions.)
      • Rebumped chat back for coherency. Point by point.
        1) While Cal himself is a "jUjU", there is no indication that English cannot play out a similar role with another FG. Scratch was a puppet used as a weapon, so GCat and Bec might just be animals obeying their masters. Just because the motif exists with Scratch and English doesn't mean that's what must always exist.
        2) While this argument is valid for Bec, GCat has no strong emotional connection demonstrated to any of the Kids. Moreover, Bec and GCat aren't sentient, so they can't really have motives! Animals can however obey orders, and even Bec's prototyping of himself to save Jade was in and of itself preserving the Alpha Timeline, meaning these things aren't mutually exclusive.
        3) This depends on the assumption that Lord English varies his appearance based on Universes, and there is not simply one Lord English. Given that Andrew referred to English being the Troll's conception of death and an agent of their mythology, this assumption does carry some weight, as Humanity's conception of death is markedly different from the Troll's, and that could presumably extend to others. Look at for instance Anubis, a god of the dead whom a LE with Bec's ears would heavily resemble.
        4) I never meant to undergo Confirmation Bias, though you apparently think I did. I merely am cautious at taking Doc's words at face value, especially words mentioned all of once in a sequence that was heavily symbolic (the calling card). Moreover part of our diagreement is about Doc's reference to his "counterparts" which you take to mean "Doc Scratch" and I take to mean "First Guardian". Neither of these are incorrect, and from the evidence in front of us at this time, neither can be proven or disproven.
        Closing: My argument boils down to this. We know Doc Scratch is connected with LE, and that in other sessions, First Guardians are created by agents of Derse, which is very loosely allied with Lord English (Feferi's Lusus, Snowman, Destruction etc). First Guardians prepare a planet for Sburb, And Then What?. Once a session has entered, a First Guardian's purpose is complete. We have no idea what happens after that stage, though in Doc's case he became Lord English. It's not that much of a stretch to believe that is the natural fate of any First Guardian, not necessarily that it must be an alternate of Doc Scratch. Moreover, in every case of FG that we have seen thus far, they are based on a tool or an animal, something that naturally can be subservient to a master.

Nanna's maiden name was ???? Clemens.

In the Alpha universe, Jane's (and likely but not necessarily Jade's) surname is Crocker, but the Batterwitch has her hooks deeper into things over there than she ever did in the Beta universe. It's quite possible that Nanna was originally given her adoptive father's name,and her active rebellion and love of japery may have led her to keep (or, later in life, re-acquire) her late adoptive father's surname.
On a vaguely related note from the vantage point of another universe, Jane Twain would have been a horrible name to have the option of choosing over Jane Crocker.

  • It would have to be Sassacre, as that seems to genuinely be his name, rather than Sam Clemens.

Exiles

White Queen/Windswept Questant arranged for White King/Writ Keeper to be placed in the pod

This would be the only reason she knew there was a fifth exile.

All the exiles were implemented as solutions to the game, with failsafes against each other.

The white army was destined to lose, but the eight exiles were designed to be exploited by the players to win the game themselves. This doesn't include WK, who wasn't intended to survive, but does include SS, DD, CD and HB. The Warweary Villein worked too well, and would've made the game too easy by deposing the Black King before all prototypings were complete, if Jack Noir hadn't worked too well and made it near unbeatable by Queening himself. But the game hasn't been broken yet -- the exiles can still foil each other, as intended. However, the involvement of Doc Scratch and the Horrorterrors were not intended, and can permanently break the game.

  • The Crew and the Exiles don't even know the other exists, nor should they. Doc and the Horrorterrors are also another faction in the game; Doc created the conditions necessary for the game to be played and the Horrorterrors are trying to make the session fail. However, the bits about Jack and WV are correct; Jack Noir's normal function in the game is a process that allows players to despose the Black Queen. Likewise, WV's normal role seems to be the same towards the Black King, but is much harder to fufill because the players reach Skaia fairly late in the game, by which point he's probably already dead. All in all this WMG makes no sense to me, it's comparing exiles across sessions which makes no sense. Spades Slick is not Bec Noir, and Bec Noir never gets exiled.
    • The Crew technically are Exiles of the trolls' session. None of them have to know about their analogues in other sessions to be programmed the same, thus comparisons between them are natural. What you're saying about JN and WV is already confirmed, but I'm further suggesting that the other Exiles may have their own but similar roles that circumstance simply didn't reveal in these sessions. But the WK and WQ were intended to be removed from play one way or another, which they have been, and won't have more than a peripheral support role.
    • Neither Doc nor the Horrorterrors were built into the game; in a sense Doc is a hacker who has a backdoor into the game because he influenced it's inception (being omniscient helps.) The Horrorterrors are also outside the game in the same way they're outside the universe; they've only become a faction by intruding on the game, probably because their space provides the network for the client/server loops and interdimensional communication to be possible.
      • The Horrorterrors are the faction that controls Derse. Think of it like this, in a chess game, the King and Queen aren't the players, they're just pieces. In Sburb, Skaia plays Prospit and the Elder Gods play Derse. Every session is a bargain between them and the cycle of destruction and renewal of universes. Doc creates the circumstances necessary for the game to be played and thus his own creation; Bec may have done something similar by leading Harley to the ruins. At any rate, they are part of the game.
        • That Doc is created in the game that he created could just as easily be a side effect of entering the game; everyone who plays will be paradoxically created within it. And the Horrorterrors don't seem to have any interest in ruling Derse, though they can exert influence that natives and dreamers may take or leave, but it's not nearly a compulsion. Only when their own were being slain did they care to communicate with someone they hoped could save them, and then they incidentally became an unignorable factions in the game. But they aren't within it and aren't a design element of it. Both Doc and the Horrorterrors are hackers who have insinuated themselves for their own purposes.
  • Using the term 'Exile' was meant to be a convenience rather than a confusion, so let me clarify them: SS, DD, CD, HB, WV, PM, AR of either session. If you can think of a better term to define this grouping, please tell.
    • Back to the original idea, I think that at least AR and PM are not very important, AR especially. They may have had some function in game, but it's impossible to say for certain. PM and AR in the kids actual session did very little (although we have yet to see how PM gets exiled) and it seems to me to be a safe bet that they were simply generic NPC's that got caught up in the game. Secondly, there's nothing to say that WQ and WK are useless because they were fated to die; in fact WQ is by far the most useful exile shown yet, aside from Snowman. The Derse agents, certainly are part of the game. WV as well, but again, it doesn't seem like AR and PM had any normal function. Mail simply happened to be a facet of the kid's session, while it wasn't part of the Trolls (for instance, even Tavros's land doesn't seem to have the obsession with mail in the same way). PM and AR in that sense might be "unique" NPCs which possibly are generated seperately, similarly to how every land shown is unique. PM may have for instance been part of John's journey across Lo Wa S in a normal session.
      • After Cascade, you may want to look over the unimportance of PM again.
      • The discussion wasn't about PM after exiling but PM in the game. The thing is WV is in every session, and is a backdoor way to defeat the Black King, whereas PM has only been seen in one session and was a simple mail lady before the unusual circumstances of the Kid's session propelled her into becoming what she is now.
      • Where is it ever said that WV is in every session? I don't recall seeing it anywhere in canon, unless it's a Formspring.
      • It was a Formspring answer.
    • Eventually shown in Act 6 is that AR is merely another type of pawn. PM is likely similar. With that in mind, it seems conclusive that the Agents of Derse and WV are in every session and may be failsafes against each other, but PM and AR are not, and simply happened to be exiles in the Kid's session.

PM will be killed by Bec Noir

Because dogs hate mailmen. Yeah, that's the best I've got

  • She lives to escape to the future wasteland and will apparently not go into the past. Also how could Bec hate mailmen if, living on a remote island, he never saw them. Mail was dropped from a plane if you remember.
    • Why would you take this seriously?
      • Because I've heard ideas confessed in total seriousness along these lines, and so out of context I couldn't be sure if it was a joke or serious.
    • So Bec hates... airplanes? Oh my god Bec Noir is going to kill Nick Cage in Con Air, thus incurring Vriska's wrath and forcing her heroic sacrifice.
    • Actually.... Bec Noir apparently loathes PM. When he saw her on a terminal he got incredibly angry. So maybe this joke theory...could be true?
      • On the contrary, he has a flush crush on her. If loyalty can save Jade, I'm guessing a crush can save PM.
  • Hilariously, this does not happen at all. In fact Bec Noir kills every Exile but PM, and PM could very well be the one to kill Bec Noir.
    • At this point it's a bit of a wash if they'll even fight, though PM is in hot pursuit of Jack.

WV is the ultimate Big Bad in Act 6

With the Scratch and the kids fleeing the wreckage of their universe, Exile Town and the other four Exiles will die. WV is the only one with a chance of surviving, and he pursues them into their new session. Unlike Jack, he isn't depowered by the destruction of the Green Sun because he still has the Uranium in his belly, so he'll go on an entirely justified attack on the Kids and Trolls.

  • Jossed on multiple levels, but PM may continue some of that.
    • The Big Bad of Act 6 is the Condesce. Though PM may attack the Kids, it's unlikely at this point.

PM and Bec Noir's further Chess Motifs

  • If Jack was a bishop, it would make sense PM was too (as of Cascade). The previous WMG on teh subject hypothesized that Jack was similar to a Bishop. With the White Sceptre, Jack would be the white-tiled black bishop, and with the regislaying sword, PM would be the black-tiled white bishop. If we were to take this motif a step further we may deduce that PM will not be the one to kill Jack, as said two bishops cannot interact.
    • PM didn't originally have the sword though; she received it from Jack. In fact you might say they're both white tiled bishops, as they are very similar in their abilities, but opposites in every other imaginable way.
      • Actually PM is a pawn. She went all the way to Derse, came back, and eventually got promoted to Queen.
      • Jack too got promoted to Queen (in a fashion) so comparing them is still valid.

WV will use the Black Ring after Jack Noir's demise

  • Because all the hints about him using the White Ring were a double Bait and Switch.

WV will end up with the second white ring from the Alpha Session.

Because things are bound to end with a 2v2 showdown: PM and WV versus Jack Noir and the Batterwitch.

  • Or Jack Noir and Alpha Jack Noir, if he manages to get his hands on the second black ring.
    • Given that the Empress has little need for it, it's entirely possible.
      • It doesn't seem like the Alpha kids are prototyping anything though, thanks to GCat.
      • DD has shown it does very little.

WV is either a former player or future player.

After all, only players with dead dreamselves have been able to enter dreambubbles. It's entirely possible that WV and some others enter from within the Medium itself and go on to have another session, and WV's dreamself is merely already dead. Or alternatively, he's an outcast from the session after the Alpha Session, having traversed back along the chain via the same method Jack did.

  • That rule only applies to when you access a Dream Bubble via dreaming. WV and the rest of the group entered the Dream Bubble physically.
    • Voila! This entire chain of dreams took place in a very abstract dreambubble; probably because as a Carapace with a more childlike intellect, WV doesn't exactly have crisp memories. Besides if that's the case, why haven't Jack or PM appeared in a dreambubble yet, if only to slice up some dead Nepetas and fly back out. Also based on that sequence and the Green Sun and shape of his nightcap, he might tentatively be called an Heir of Light, as his life thusfar has been rather extraordinarily lucky.
      • 1) That sequence doesn't indicate anything about WV's nature, as it's a dream Vriska is having, and it's prophetic, ala her Light powers. It might not actually be a Dream Bubble, but an outright Dream. Indeed, it doesn't follow the rules of any other Dream Bubble, ever. 2) Jack and PM MAY have gone into Dream Bubbles; we haven't been following them very closely ever since Cascade. And even if they haven't, so what? You can't kill the already dead, and Jack's kinda distracted by his attempt to Get Some. <3
      • When was it ever shown Vriska's dreams are prophetic? In fact her direct alternate, Aranea, is God Tiered and a hero of Light as well, and her dreams are in dreambubbles. One must also wonder how it could be prophetic when said prophecy turned out to be innaccurate; it really seems much more like a nightmarish memory of the past. It actually does follow logic of dreambubbles, merely in a much more abstract manner. Dreambubbles have been shown to shift between settings drastically and don't have hard and fast rules (just look at Jade's first Dreambubble for instance), and again there's no indication Vriska did anything special at all to contact WV. And on the matter of Jack and PM, until it has been seen directly on panel, there's no indication WV isn't actually unique.
        • Vriska's dreams are potentially prophetic because she had a dream about things that have yet to occur. The dream is symbolic, uses abstract imagery and meanings, and may or may not have been accurate, but that's standard for Dreaming of Things to Come. Also, what the heck are you talking about? Aranea is DEAD. We have no idea what she might've dreamed about as a God Tier. At all. Dreambubbles do have 'rules' in that they always replicate a memory of the past to the smallest details until the dreamer starts 'lucid dreaming' and can then walk into other people's memories. None of that applies to the vision you're talking about whatsoever. Especially since the dream contains things that have yet to occur for both of them, such as Jack taking the green rocks out of WV's stomach and using the Red Miles.

\\It's not a Dream Bubble. You've lost that point, try something else.

        • Your insistence that it isn't a dreambubble is baffling. There's no evidence that Vriska has prophetic dreams because we know what a Thief of Light does, and none of that would have any chance to be prophetic. If anyone, Rose would be a likely candidate, but even she dreams in dreambubbles. At any rate, the only way anyone has been shown to be able to share a dream like Vriska and WV did is via dreambubbles. Dreambubbles can be bizzare, so arguing that Vriska and WV's dream isn't a dreambubble because it's bizarre and breaks the rules we've been shown thus far is nonsensical . Also, this event did occur relatively early in dreambubble's introduction, so Hussie might not have established the internal rules yet, much like how Jade's first dreambubble was an actual dream. It certainly does fit some of the rules, like blending of settings and past events together, though again it is much more abstract than other dreambubbles.
          • 1) We really don't know how everything works regarding the Classes and Aspects; entire entries of them are entirely left undefined as far as what they can do, but Light IS tied into luck, fortune, and possible futures, while the Dream Bubbles have NEVER had precognitive scenarios, ever, and are always a blending of settings, memories, and events from the past. None of your links really support your case except possible [S] Jade: Wake Up, but that's still not really conclusive because that was the time Jade met the Horrorterrors, which according to Hussie's Formspring, and Feferi's own comments, took place BEFORE the creation of the Dream Bubbles. Jade's first true Dream Bubble was probably the time she met Feferi as a ghost.

Sprites

Why Jadesprite thought she failed horribly

  • All dead selves show up in dream bubbles, including alternate timelines and etc. Jade never realized that the others were still alive because she was Dream Jade, notorious for being incredibly derpy and forgetting about basic things like Sburb.
    • You would think those rubberbands on Jade/Dream!Jade->Jadesprite would have been helpful for her remebering that she hadn't failed.
      • Dream!Jade apparently took hers off when she took the White Queen's ring. Out of canon though, Andrew forgot about the rubberbands constantly and had to go back and edit panels a lot which is why he had Jade take them off.

All sprites are doomed

All eleven lusussprites are dead (though we were never told how), Davesprite is dying, and Aradiasprite died when the soulbot exploded (or when she merged, if that counts). Sprites are normally supposed to die in the reckoning, which is why the four released sprites were called there. This is what happened to the lusussprites. Aradia and Davesprite are both special cases, Aradia because she is the primary instance of a player, and Dave because he is a non-alpha duplicate. Davesprite is doomed early, Aradia late.

  • Andrew confirmed the general idea via Word of God on Formspring; Aradia is the lone exception because she was fully revived and in a sense was never a true sprite in the first place. However it's unclear if the sprites naturally die during the Reckoning are or whether they're attacked towards the end of the game.

The Trolls Dream-Jade was friends with before being resurrected as Jadesprite were the Pre-Scratch Trolls

On This page, Dog-Tier Jade discusses her Jadesprite memories. In the discussion, she says the trolls she met in the Dream bubbles weren't the trolls they knew. Who are the only other trolls who have had access to the Incipisphere and hence the Furthest Ring? The Pre-Scratch Ancestors. Coincidentally, this would also imply the Mystery Troll Girl is Pre-Scratch Mindfang, and the Punk Troll Girl is the Pre-Scratch Condesce, as they are encountered within dream bubbles.

  • Last sentence confirmed.
  • It's basically completely confirmed at this point but there hasn't been any direct evidence to seal the deal.

Midnight Crew and Counterparts

Jack's death will have something to do with a clock.

  • There is a sentence in the comic that has to do with this while Aradia talks about the genetic code "t1ck t0ck"- the "tyrant less an arm and an eye." Snowman stabbed Jack's eye out and ripped off his arm.

AA: the persisting sounds said to accompany the ultimate demise of the tyrant less an arm and an eye

    • This could just as easily be referring to Vriska. Or Marquise Spinneret Mindfang. Or Captain Hook. (Was he missing an eye?) Villainous characters in Homestuck losing an arm and an eye is practically a Running Gag by this point.
      • It's definitely a reference to the troll version of Captain Hook; Pupa Pan apparently is more of a myth than a children's story on Alternia, and has something to do with (may be based on?) Marquise Spinneret Mindfang and the Summoner. Hook is a pirate captain, so an eyepatch wouldn't be out of place, and everyone knows the story of his hand and the clock-bearing crocodile that keeps coming back for (ahem) seconds. Given that Call Backs are a freqently used narrative device in Homestuck to the point of being (if Doc Scratch is to be believed) a significant plot point, it could also be a reference to any number of other characters, including but not limited to Jack.

Jack's active role in the story is nearing it's end.

At this moment, he's pretty much on his own. The good guys have four God Tiers including one who also has Jack's omnipotence, and a fully prototyped PM, who is more or less his equal in terms of power. It doesn't matter how we look at it, Jack is WAY outclassed.

  • A few scenarios seem likely
    • A) A big beatdown involving all the heroes or just PM kicking his ass for all that he's done, ala Make Her Pay pr
    • B) Jack ends up working for English in some fashion. English is identified as the Lord of the Angels and Jack definitely has an angelic vibe. Jack could also become English's host for his attempt to manifest in the Human Universe.
    • C) He will eventually see the threat that Lord English poses and will join the fight against English. Jack will die in the final battle helping to ensure Lord English's destruction.
      • Given Jack Noir's own nature however, this one does seem unlikely.
    • D) In the middle of the Jack vs. PM showdown, Lord English arrives and curbstomps them both, establishing himself as the new Big Bad. It wouldn't be the first time a showdown was interrupted by the interference of a third party.

Hearts Boxcars is Mobster Kingpin's Evil Counterpart

One can look over the Midnight Crew and reasonably presume that they're an Evil Counterpart to Team Sleuth, with Space Slick as Problem Sleuth's, Clubs Deuce as Ace Dick's, and Diamonds Droog as Pickle Inspector's. This leaves Hearts Boxcars as the odd man out, and so I submit that he is, in fact, Mobster Kingpin's Evil Counterpart. Though the play as much as counterparts as the do opposites...

  • MK's head is way bigger than his body, while HB's body is way bigger than his head, yet both are undeniably the largest members of their respective groups.
  • HB gets ordered around by SS and DD; MK takes orders from nobody, and is Problem Sleuth's main antagonist.
  • I thought he was Fiesta Ace Dick's counterpart.
    • Looks more like the Hired Muscle to me.

Slick wasn't sent to an alternate timeline, he was just shunted to the past.

The mansion was built around the vault, rather than the vault being built in the mansion. When he opened it, it kicked him back to the earlier days of post-troll society, where he did all his exile things. Meanwhile, past Slick is setting events in motion to create a new civilization on the ruins.

  • Doc is alive again, when he is dead during the intermission, so that would make sense. However it's not so much past as alternate timeline. Basically Slick's adventures during the intermission were part of an alternate timeline that got folded into the alpha timeline at the end. Otherwise he'd keep going through the cycle over and over.
    • The first theory is seemingly confirmed; we've seen the deaths of Quarters and Matchsticks.
      • Seems to be both an alternate timeline and the past.

Cyborg Slick is going to kill Alpha Jack Noir

It just seems appropriate. It'll naturally be framed as an internal conflict playing out externally, or something of that nature.


The Felt

The Felt, save for Snowman, Doc Scratch and Lord English are all Frogs.

Consider the following:

  • The sole remnant of the Derse Empire (namely, the Midnight Crew) consider them enemies. The fact that they are rival gangs aside, we learn later on that Dersites despise frogs.
  • Like frogs, they are all green, lack noses, have broad mouths (save for Clover) and big bulgy eyes similar to the statues of Billious Slick we've seen.

Snowman is synchronized with Doc Scratch

We know that killing Snowman will destroy the universe, we know that a ~ATH program will summon Lord English after the trolls' universe dies, we know that Lord English cannot enter the trolls' universe until Doc Scratch is killed, we know that destroying the Green Sun isn't the only way to kill Doc Scratch, and the June 19th update revealed that Doc Scratch wants Jack Noir to kill Snowman. Furthermore, Doc Scratch and Snowman are the only members of the Felt with green auras, both of them have teleportation powers and this sequence implies that Snowman, like Doc Scratch and Terezi, can see into alternate futures.

  • On the other hand; Snowman's powers are implied to have come directly from a portion of Doc's own abilities. Thus it would only make since that her much more limited powers would be similar to his. But if killing her would in effect kill Scratch, Doc would've already done so, instead of directing Rose on her mission.

Lord English will play a part in the final battle.

Doc Scratch's entire angle in the story is to summon Lord English and die, and the other half of the story seems to gear towards the kids dealing with Bec Noir. What's to say that these two elements won't intersect with each other in the climax?

  • While it seems certain that English is in someway ultimately a villain that will be fought, it remains to be seen if he's a Giant Space Flea From Nowhere or simply The Bigger Bad. Noir is not anywhere near as powerful as English though. Think of it this way, Noir is perhaps a Physical God, but English is quite literally a god, being the incarnation of destruction of universes.
  • Lord English has finally made a physical appearance, so at least there's something to fight now.

Ȩͥ̈́̉̔̃Lord eͮ̌̔nglish is

eͮ̌̔ͪ҉̣̠̰̳Z͉̝̰̣̩̞̭͌̆́̅̓̑̒͜h̸̦̰ͥͧ̾̃͘E̿ ̸̀̓̑ͥ̐E̿ ̸̀̓̑ͥ̐E̿ ̸̀̓̑ͥ̐E̿ ̸̀̓̑Z͉̝̰̣

Lord English's peg leg will be an Achilles' Heel in the Final Battle.

The leg stump is visibly bleeding, so Lord English may not be so invincible after all.

  • Jossed. Hussie has said his one weakness is apparently Doc Scratch's gun.

Lord English is a snake to the univeres' frogs.

That or another frog-eater. This is also why the dark gods oppose the creation of new universes, because they might feed Lord English.

Lord English will be killed with Die's voodoo doll.

It's not a coincidence that the first hint of English's supposed immortality was mentioned when Spades Slick grapped that doll. (http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003139)

The Felt are the remainder of the players that created universe A1.

Pretty self explanatory.

  • Doesn't make any sense though.

Lord English was the one who gave The Condesce an offer she couldn't refuse.

So the Condecse fought the Handmaid/Demoness and won. However, since her opponent was of Rust Blood she basicly completely disreguarded it. Thus, Lord English personally appeared (Or was already there) and gave her the same offer. They fought. The Condecse lost. Severely. And so Lord English gave her a final offer. Serve underneath him and be granted death at the end of her service, or deny the offer and suffer a Fate Worse Than Death. Seeing as she's basicly scared shitless of Lord English by this point, she took the offer willingly.

Other Characters

Skaia is the embodiment of all life in the universe(s), and the game is a means of preserving itself.

The game is set up to serve this function, win or lose; the only difference is how much the player's native planet is sacrificed. However, breaking the game has put the existence of life in danger.

  • The source of all creation and the ultimate power trying to create new universes and thus life, yes.
    • Source of Bilious Slick, or Bilious Slick is the source of Skaia? Given the history of paradoxical generation in this story, the answer is probably "Yes"

FedoraFreak is actually...

  • Bear Grylls from Man vs. Wild. Think about it, less than a day after the world has ended and He's already drinking his own urine and who else on Earth is capable of adequately surviving the apocalypse on short notice.
    • According to a brief segment with Nanna, he probably even survived the massive green explosion from Jade's meteor.
    • Actually it's pretty clear he is in the medium and he could have entered before the meteor.
      • Also he has been living off his own piss for a while now simply because he could not find water, it was assumed that he was still on Earth as it was ruined but it actually makes more sense if he was on a dry planet in the medium the whole time.

Various guesses about fedoraFreak's importance in the story.

  • He will kill Lord English.
    • The only way to deal any damage to him is by glitches in the game, fedora is somehow in the game dispite the fact that he is not a paradox clone. His entire presence is a glitch.
  • The tumor was surrounded by the kids four symbols (even Dave's scratched gear) meaning the symbol that belongs to fedora may in fact be a giant ying yang bomb. A bomb that is also a game glitch.
  • fedora's title is the Gentleman of Glitches and he will soon obtain the godhood of glitches.
  • fedora's handle on pesterchum is UU.
    • Keeps the DNA/RNA sequencing scheme going also it reveals Hussie's ultimate trolling attempt on the fanbase.
      • FF is UU.
  • As an act of friendship with the kids he will share a bottle of apple juice with them.
  • He is Problem Sleuth.
  • Since he likely wears a hat and pretty much all characters that wear hat's in MSPA gennerally keep some foodstuff under their hats one could probably expcect somesort of game breaking candy under the fedora.
    • or pumpkin seeds.
  • fedora is J's grandfather.
    • This one now appears highly unlikely, if not Jossed.
  • fedorafreak is the offspring of Mobius Trip and Hadron Kaleido
  • fedora is the thirteenth troll.

fedorafreak's color? between the trolls, the kids and their respective sprites hussie has covered all the visible light spectrum so what color will fedorafreak be. Will he remain gray and just match Karkat's color?

  • Orange, Pumpkin Orange (fits between Tavros and Sollux)
  • simple fedorafreak is Karkat

Fedorafreak is the Sufferer. Who somehow survived and made it to the human universe.

  • Since he was already technically a player he was allowed to re-enter the game.

fedorafreak is Dad Egbert from the second kid's session.

  • Because we have four kids soon to be ancestors and four ancestors soon to be kids but why would a character just suddenly stop existing from one session to the next.

fedorafreak is the hero of void.

  • Equius's attribute prevented any spying attempts on Vriska. Similarly Rose suddenly can not be viewed by anyone around the same time FF starts making posts about how he cannot find water and has resorted to drinking his on urine.
    • But that is impossible, FF is already the Gent of Piss.

Lil' Cal is the Most Important Character in Homestuck

As revealed in [S] Cascade, Lil' Cal was sitting in Gamzee's lap off-camera in the scene where AH told us, "The most important character in Homestuck fondly regards the miracle of a new beginning." Almost everyone assumed this meant Gamzee, though not everyone knew whether he was serious or not, but the Gamzee ruse was a distaction. Lil' Cal was created by Gamzee to haunt Dave's nightmares and, though a series of cross-universe time loops, became Bro's unsettling minion, a friend to Gamzee and Bec Noir, the ectobiological grandfather of Doc Scratch, and possibly an influence on Lord English's form once he manifested (or vice versa). There's good reason to believe that Lil' Cal has always been alive since he moves and laughs on his own on Derse, and Gamzee says that he's been teaching him the "truth" about the "messiahs" that the Subjugglators worship -- the one who releases the Vast Honk, Lord English.

Lil' Cal may be far more tied into Lord English than originally believed. Whether created unconsciously as an echo of him by the heir of the Subjugglators or not, he has certainly been instrumental in his arrival. For all we know, he may be an aspect/herald of him. Possibly even the reason why Doc Scratch is so much more active in the service of Lord English than Bec ever was.

  • A few things, one, since through the meteors, dream cal became real cal, if dream cal was sentient, and could move, then yes, real cal can, since they are the same cal...but just because D C Scratch was Lord English's minion, doesn't mean ALL first guardians are...(first guardians actually exist to guard planets with life)...but apparently D C Scratch said he had gone through this many times, which means he might be the ONLY first guardian working for LE...for that matter...

Calmasis is what Lil Cal sees himself as.

To the outside world, he's just an ordinarily creepy puppet. But inside his mind he's a scheming, very much alive boy/girl who casually grows in importance.

Lil' Cal is a robot, or at least robotic

Considering the robot parts in D Strider's bathroom, and the fact that one of them resembles the head of a puppet his pre-scratch self had, this might not be that much of a stretch.

The glasses-based computers (Serious Business Goggles and iShades) and other such computers with no typing input are operated by voice-to-text.

They have to operate them somehow, and we're definitely not seeing any holo-keyboard popping out like Jade's computers. This is also supported when the crocodile was nakking, "MY GLASSES ARE TALKING TO ME," which may suggest the process can work both ways.

The Archagent of Prospit is going to become shockingly important at some point

Presumably Prospit and Derse would both have agents and archagents, right? Balance?

  • They don't have archagents. The Queen is more heavily involved on Prospit, while the Queen of Derse is much less involved.

Andrew Hussie has a distinct place in the story

He serves as a Good Counterpart to Lord English. While English exists beyond time and space, omniscient, etc, and exists to destroy universes and cause death, Andrew Hussie exists as one who describes universes, and fleshes them out into becoming good things. Think of it as the conflict between Derse and Propsit, played out on a massive god-like scale. Presumably, Andrew Hussie has counterparts in other universes, artists who make the universe stronger and more varied. Heck they might even be fan artists and fan fic writers, who explore the universe Hussie established.

  • What does Hussie's death at the end of A 6 I 2 mean for this WMG?

The Bunny Went God Tier

Liv Tyler/Terry Kiser was on a quest Bed when it dies, you cannot convince me this didn't happen. It was Dave's Quest Bed and the bunny had already gone through plenty of time shenanigans, maybe it developed time powers, idk.

  • "the bunny didn't make it."


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