Saints Row (series)/Headscratchers

Why do so many people side with Julius in the dispute between him and the Boss? Julius is the one who created the Boss, first of all. He created the Boss to be The Dragon in the Saints so that he could murder all of the other gangs threatening Saints Row. Then he proceeded to betray the Boss and blow him up. Worse still, he had all of the Saints rounded up or killed. This directly contributes to a power vacuum that results in Saints Row getting three extremely psychotic gangs. The Boss is the only person in Saints Row 2 who can bring back a semi-ordered society.
- While everybody can argue endlessly about Julius' tactics and their advisability, the fact remains that if absolutely NOTHING else, one can still say he actually meant and intended well which can definitively NOT be said about the Boss by the time of the second game. The "Semi-Ordered" society the Boss intends to bring about is a change from anarchy to dictatorship, as instead of having various gangs prey upon and persecute the innocent, HE and his gang prey upon and persecute the innocent without a whiff of opposition. In addition, the very contention that the Boss alone can bring about a remotely sane Stillwater is disputable to the extreme, as Vogel's plan- which arguably might have in fact been BETTER in the long run than turning the city into an effective dictatorship by the Boss- was running along smoothly until a Spanner in the Works showed up with the title of the Boss of the Saints. In addition, Julius could argue that the Saints were by DEFINITION a necessarily temporary institution to clean up Stillwater and that once they had served their use, they had to be disbanded by any means necessary to prevent them from becoming just like the gangs they eliminated, which is EXACTLY what happens in the second game. To say nothing of the fact that Julius' analysis that the Boss would not give up his power willingly and had to be removed violently proved to be EXACTLY correct. Julius made his mistakes, but events played out more or less exactly as he foresaw them save for the effects of the power vacuum between the first game and the second, and he had his heart in the right place.
  - Ultor would be even worse! We've already seen what happens when they get power, they become much, much worse. Don't believe me? Play Red Faction.
    - Except for the fact that the game makes pretty clear that a LOT of the reasons they get away with as much as they do on Mars is because Mars is the very first colony the human race has and humanity's seat of power remains on Earth, which means that they can effectively do whatever the hell they want on Mars until the revolt blows the blinds off... which conveniently results in the EDF popping in and singlehandedly blowing what's left of their operation into pieces. They would probably be far more restrained in running a major American city (even one as corrupt as Stillwater) due to the government looking over their shoulder. And even if we agree that Ultor < The Boss's Saints, that does not mean that The Boss > Julius.
    - Ultor has weird human experiments going on in Stillwater. They also are conducting tests with nuclear missiles and selling the results to what are implied to be terrorist nations. Plus, Vogel took advantage of the Boss' street fight with the Sons of Samedi to burn down the entirety of a Stillwater district.
- Julius' plan didn't work anyway. As soon as there's a power vacuum in Stillwater, three new gangs appear and make things even worse. Why didn't he realize this?
  - Because he didn't want the blame of being Vice Kings that wore purple.
    - I guess it just bothers me that Julius' rank hypocrisy comes off as cowardly. He makes the Boss and Johnny Gat, turns them loose, and then tries to kill them the moment that they've killed most of the people he wanted them to do.
  - How I see it, no one is a good guy. Its a world full of ass holes with the closest to a good person is a psychopathic mastermind who wants to be (And with the right clothes, becomes) a comic book super villain. Throughout the two games, everyone does something that makes them bad people. Julius' betrayal of someone who saw him as a friend and then arranging the deaths of all his friends, Mearo's Disproportunate Retribution in the form of Carlos' ungodly torture, Shogo attacking Aisha's funeral, etc. The Bosses MEH according to the fans was killing Julius, when as the original troper pointed out, was hardly unjustified. The Bosses real MEH was his final comment in the game 'we do whatever the fuck we want'. Basically now acting as an unofficial dictator. Its a change from Rockstar's GTA series which constantly try to paint their protagonists as 'good people with poor choices', when they do a lot of bad things, both in story and out. At least Voltian doesn't try to paint their obviously evil main character as a good guy.
Is Boss the only Boss, and Gat his underling? Or is Gat the other Boss that just doesn't show up so much?
- Sometimes when doing something badass in Saints Row 2, with one of the female voices, the character will say, "...and that's why Gat answers to me." which indicates that the Boss is the only boss.
- The feeling I got was Boss and Gat are technically equals, but Gat is quite happy as long as he gets to kill people. Boss makes all the decisions, and Johnny just tags along and racks up a body count. He's not the most strategic mind...
- Gat is his/her second in command. It's been a while but I think early in Saints Row 2 you get Pierce, Shaundi, and Carlos, and Gat refers to them as "Generals". This is what the sub-bosses of the other gangs are, but there was always the Dragon right under the boss of the gang, like the girlfriend of Maero or the voodoo guy in the Sons of Samadi. So Boss is the leader, Gat is second, and Pierce, Shaundi, and Carlos are all equal. This is why Boss directly commands them, but usually lets Gat do whatever, but Gat is still subservient to Boss and listens when it's important.
- It's also very much give and take. Boss listens to Carlos on breaking out of prison, Shaundi gets him\her into drugs, Gat will get Boss to go along with an alternate plan to rob and casino, and Pierce suggests hitting the Ultor party. Likewise Boss will tell Carlos he needs to lift his game, Shaundi is not to fight, Gat can't be off killing cops all day and goes off at Pierce for not concentrating on the job.

And why the hell hasn't Donnie just joined the winning side, now his (maybe) uncle is helping them, his girlfriend was one, and they've destroyed both of the gangs he's got involved with?
- Donnie's an idiot and the Butt Monkey.
- Because Donnie's got serious reasons to hate the Boss. Even without factoring in the whole Lin mess, the Boss is responsible for all of Donnie's troubles from Saints Row 1 and destroyed the Rollerz, his family. After picking up the pieces and moving on by joining the Brotherhood, everything from five years prior happens again with Donnie playing a far more personal role as the Boss' pawn. Can you really blame him for not wanting to join the man who fucked up his world twice?

In Saints Row 2... Why exactly does Boss decide to put Carlos out of his misery? Couldn't he just, y'know, take Carlos to the hospital, get him patched up then take him to the plastic surgeon to fix his face?
- People aren't made of iron in real life. Those kinds of injuries would have likely seen him dead before they'd reached the hospital, especially if he was being jostled around further.
  - Aren't made of iron, eh? Gameplay and Story Segregation!
  - Not necessarily. The Boss is shown to be incredibly durable - it doesn't apply to everyone in the game.
    - It does apply to everyone. You get about one minute to resurrect homies, even though they should be realistically dead already.
  - Furthermore, the boss does start getting him fixed up again...it just looks like it will take a while.
  - Having just replayed the scene, Carlos is tied to the truck with some ridiculously durable looking chains. I seriously doubt they would have been able to free him before his injuries became too much; he's barely holding together as it is.
  - Not to mention that Carlos looks like a lot of his skin's been torn to shreds. Even laying on the ground was painful for him. Even if he could survive that, do you really think that he'd live a pleasant life?
  - Modern medicine has salvaged a lot worse than how Carlos looked. It's a hell of a lot easier to get a guy's legs out of some chains than give him up for dead: the jaws of life pry people out of worse as a routine. With how The Boss gives him one half-assed tug and looks around to make sure no one's looking before he offs the boy, it just looks lazy. This Troper broke out laughing when the mercy kill came up. There's no argument, by normal standards or the stylized ones of the game, that the mercy kill was way, way way too early to be considered appropriate.
  - You obviously don't understand the treatment involved for people in that situation. Even a 'simple' motorbike crash, without protective leathers, means the victim has to have the grit and debris ground out of their body without any form of anasthetic, as it can and will react with the myriad of chemicals (diesel, etc) found in gravel and tarmac. Now consider that Carlos was dragged along at high speed for a considerable period of time and it's not hard to see why Boss chose to give him a quick death. You're vastly over-stating the ease of which 'modern medicine' can deal with a situation like that.
  - So how can I literally hurl myself out of a helicopter and faceplant into the tarmac, only to wake up at a hospital A-OK?
  - Delete your save game after every death buddy, and you'll have the full experience you crave.
  - It could be Gameplay and Story Integration, actually. Boss gets stronger as s/he does activities and gains respect. If we assume that the other Made of Iron character, Johnny Gat, is also a high-level gangster who's got the same amount of respect and experience behind him, it sort of makes sense. Carlos is just too low level to survive it- after all, he is most likely the least experienced and youngest lieutenant.
- It's an attempt to create a sense of pathos, just like Boss shooting Julius, Maero finding his girlfriend's body, Aisha's death, Shogo being buried alive, etc.

How come The Boss didn't suffer from atrophy after they woke up from a five year coma? You could use the Gameplay and Story Segregation card, or say that it wouldn't be fun to play as someone who can't use their muscles, but they could have just put a quick little montage that shows The Boss learning how to do stuff again.
- It happened before the two cops came in to see the Boss.
- Regenerating Health. Kicks in after ten seconds of not being attacked, right?

Word of God says that Steelport, the setting of SR 3, was founded by blue-collar factory workers, and suffered a downturn due to lack of proper zoning and other screw-ups. Alright, so why not just get a proper city planner as the place was growing?
- Because that would be the intelligent thing to do and intelligence is a very rare commodity in the world of Saints Row.
  - Even rarer than it is in real life?
- Yes. Shocking I know.

In Mr. Sunshine's boss fight, he uses a voodoo doll of you to deal damage and throw you about the room. To hurt Sunshine, you have to first shoot the voodoo doll to stun him, and then you're free to shoot him. Considering the boss fight runs on Hollywood Voodoo, shouldn't shooting the voodoo doll hurt you?
- I think the doll was just a focus for his powers, and without it he couldn't use his powers on you. So shooting it out of his hands in that sense would make sense.
- Wait, you have to disarm him of the doll first? I just shot the mother fucker a few times when he was doing it, didn't realize I had to knock it out of his hand. Funny old world, in it?
What is with Shaundi's drastic change in attitude? I can accept maturing, but she's a completely different character. She bears no resemblance to the way she is in the second game. I do like the character, but why is she basically a female Gat?
- Maybe she out grew her stoner phase? It alot like Dex's change in character from SR1 to SR2. Years do tend to change people. I mean there are differences from the person we are now to the person we were when we were younger and each game has a gap of a few years.
- There seems to have been a lot of changes in basic character. The boss no longer seems to have the vicious, amoral streak from the second game and seems, if not "good" than at least less morally ambiguous. Pierce also seems to have lost much of his characterization as a planner and his occasional bickering with Shaundi for the Boss' attention.
  - Well, the Boss still enjoys killing people, so (s)he's not "good", but the Saints becoming media darlings did change them....Hell, isn't that basically what both Birk and Gat said at the start of the game?
- Except that only explains why she changed, not why she changed to how she is now. I could understand why she would become more mature, or at least stop smoking, but she's also became super serious ALL the time, in the opening level before the death of Gat she expresses distaste in Birk's easy going-ness, and later takes every opertunity to act angry and snippy. With Dex, it was because he gained newfound power (A high ranking place at a corupt corporation instead of being a gangs smart guy) and wanted to protect this power, an understandable change. But Gat and Pierce didn't change that much from their new found status as media icons (Pierce did become a lot more respected, but that's more of people around him changing than he himself changing), yet Shaundi doesn't even personally resemble her previous self. That explanation doesn't explain her new personality or why she became so angry.
- I'm just about to put an explanation up on Fridge Brilliance about this.
- She got money, got a 401k, and suddenly started caring about what the stock market was doing.
What exactly was stopping The Boss from sending someone else to save Shaundi/eliminate Killbane while (s)he did the other thing? Oleg, Pierce, Kinzie, Angel... not like The Boss was short on homies.
- The streets being overrun by STAG and Luchadores maybe?
- (Different poster to OP); Actually, by my count Zimos at least isn't involved with anything, Kinzie/Angel is already in a position to deal with Kia/Killbane and there are a few extra homies one can acquire (Burt Reynolds/Nyte Blade for example) who are also potentially free as well as a large number of nameless Saints.
- Burt fucking Reynolds was also taken hostage. He's the one egging you on to take out that terrorist (Kia), and possibly would go with STAG being terrorists to get them out of his city. If he dies in the bad ending then he can't interfere with STAG.
- You still have a gang with many helicopters at their disposal and enough weaponry to take over the city. If they couldn't send Burt Reynolds, they could send their own army. You deal with getting Shaundi, they just fly their helicopters over and shoot down Killbane's plane.
- It's...yeah, it's a bit of a cop out. I know. But there's STAG fighting going on everywhere, I would say STAG blocks communications (Kinzie being Kinzie would get through} but you can't call up for aid during the mission.
  - I think at that point, the Saints were busy fighting for their lives what with the Luchadores, the Deckers, and STAG coming after them. The Boss was too distracted to radio someone else to go deal with Killbane.
So, how exactly could a Memetic Badass like Gat get killed so easily at the begining of the game, especially in a way that you didn't even see it? I didn't realize he was really dead until I completed the game and got him as a Zombie, since I didn't expect him to die. He could take down waves of police officers, but not the a plane filled with Morning Star and their leader, many of whom you'd also killed yourself and the leader of which he easily over powered a moment ago?
- He had already been shot in the gut at the start of the level, and unlike those other situations he was in a cramped area without access to all his weapons. All the morning star had to do was wait until he was looking at the controls and not the door and just shoot him.
- Actually, he was stabbed, and he'd been in a worse situation before. Remember, previously Gat has been Made of Iron, and even after getting stabbed he killed five or more people without any trouble. And even then, I'm not confused as to them killing him, but the way he died doesn't make much sense considering he'd been so important to the plot previously. And then, there's the fact the Boss doesn't even act like he lost him (He makes a few comments when you kill someone along the lines of 'thats for you Johnny' or 'Yeah, just like Gat', but that's it). So, I don't see why he died in such a way, how he could actually be killed, and why the Boss doesn't seem to mind losing his best friend, especially when he'd been really worked up over Gat being nearly killed in the last game (He actually showed more emotion when Gat got stabbed in the last game than when he died here).
- I'm guessing that Gat will return in some form via DLC, since it'd be utterly bizarre for the developers to drop a bridge on their franchise's top character. (Who knows if the crazy bastard is actually dead - Zombie!Gat could just be a novelty unlockable. We're talking about a game where you can drive a computer game tank around town.) Making a huge arc about Gat's death only to do a take-back later would be bad mojo.
- The problem was, he was stabbed, going up against a bunch of guys all by himself, and then he went to fly the plane. When he was trying to fly the plane, he was distracted and eventually had too many people get up behind him. It's kinda hard to fly and shoot at the same time.
Given how uptight Shaundi had become how come she has a dating show?
- Wasn't that when she was still high most of the time?
- She comments to Boss about still having it. At the start of the game she is prickly, but doesn't get really bad until Johnny's death. It's still kind of hard to imagine.
- She doesn't seem that uptight when she talks about her dating, most of the time.
Here's what I don't get: If Steelport didn't like the Saints, why do they have posters of them all over town, including Saints clothing stores in the beginning of the game?
- The hate comes especially when STAG enforces martial law. At the start of the game it's the Syndicate who don't want them there, and being a criminal organization they can only trash Planet Saints in gang attacks. When STAG rolls into town Steelport has bigger things to worry about. Then there's also Mayor Burt fucking Reynolds, who is a Saints supporter. He fought the army before STAG shows up, so he would have enough pull to let the Saints operate despite the public outcry. And there are still fans wanting an autograph when you're fighting STAG and the Luchadores.
Okay, so Shaundi wants Killbane dead. IIRC, she, Boss, and Kinzie are flying in a helicopter that has a minigun. So why doesn't she just take the minigun and start firing at Killbane's car rather than asking Boss to get up close and personal so she can ready her sniper?
- Actually the helicopter had no guns, it's an Oppressor like one of the police spotter or news choppers. Besides, for Shaundi It's Personal, she wants to be the one to take the shot.
Why did Johnny Gat have to do his Stupid Sacrifice in the beginning? I know he wants to look after Boss, but why? They're up against a plane full of thugs who want to kill them all, and he think he can take them all and drive a plane at the same time? Why didn't Boss say, "Don't be stupid! We're going to the cockpit together." Why was he worried about Boss' wellbeing? Shouldn't he know by now that Boss can survive all kinds of hell and keep dishing out all different kinds of pain on the bad guys?
Why does it seem like hunting down Killbane is supposed the correct choice in the last mission? The Boss is all about loyalty to his homies to me.
- Its not. Its clearly the Downer Ending choice.
  - Ah, but (as someone said further up the page) all the references to the Daedalus throughout the game become pointless if you don't go after Killbane, and the Killbane/Temple strand is much tougher than the Kia/Mars one. It /does/ seem like the 'canon' ending, but I agree with the OP here; you'd expect the canon ending to be the one where the Boss saves Shaundi, since loyalty is just about their only redeeming attribute. My guess is that the weirdness is a result of the devs wanting to finish with a decision that called back to all the in-game references to how the Saints were changing, while maintaining the tradition of killing off important characters at the end of the game (like Julius in SR2). It still seems like it would have made more sense to have, say, Shaundi kidnapped by Killbane and Reynolds or Hughes with Kia so that the choice was clearly between gang loyalty and profit/influence, but there you go.