Talk:Designated Hero

While it's arguable that Mario's whole team in SMG4: The Mario Mafia - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=smg4+mario+mafia&qpvt=smg4+mario+mafia&view=detail&mid=F594D9EADE53307D978BF594D9EADE53307D978B&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dsmg4%2Bmario%2Bmafia%26qpvt%3Dsmg4%2Bmario%2Bmafia%26FORM%3DVDRE) is this trope to variable extents, I recently had a weird experience when watching the video and glimpsing into public "reaction" videos:

Through most of the video I feel an intense antipathy specifically against Meggy. Something seems to tell me she is distinct from the rest and an extreme sociopath, wanting complete destruction of Bowser's family right from the beginning. She appears as an arrogant Smug Snake, and her facial expressions are already threatening on their own. But when I try to analyze the plot logically, I can't really find an argument why she should be so much worse than anyone else in the video.

It's also not that I have any particular sympathy for Wendy who gets killed by her at the end. (Except that this scene is a kind-of subverted Crime of Self Defense on Wendy's side played for laughs.) Or for Bowser himself - he is obviously a big Jerkass who has to expect revenge for what he does himself (I mean his firearm attack, not his spilling of Mario's spaghetti).

Also Meggy in most other SMG4 videos is not such a Hate Sink for me - She is always a bit of an Insufferable Genius who habitually uses Attack Its Weak Point, but still overall sympathetic compared with many others. Mario himself is usually worse, for example - even in this video one could argue he is the worst because he lets his injured bodyguard Po die in front of his eyes. Not even Bowser considers actively eschewing his fellows/kids, he is just stupid at the end.

Lastly, my experience of Meggy being particularly detestable doesn't appear to be shared by others, according to my preliminary and non-representative search.

This is interesting - and also somewhat disturbing - with the backgroung that I am on the autism spectrum: From both personal experience and interaction with other Aspies, I know that our interpretation of social cues is sometimes a bit off and weird, including inappropriate perceptions that someone else is a Jerkass when they aren't really. In many cases, such misplaced accusations are the result of own past experience such as someone reminding us of a past Bully. Besides, some of us are also good at overthinking everything to death, potentially finding pieces of Fridge Horror that no-one else would ever find.

This is why I want to ask other tropers here: Does anyone have a similar perception of Meggy in this video? Or is she hitting some specific internal Berserk Button in me just incidentally?

Note: I don't need an answer from everyone. That would be the wrong place here. Just some assurance if my viewpoint is rationally understandable or not, so that if I'm not grossly misinterpreting something, I could potentially add this example into the article.

Watching the video again, it seems to me that Meggy is the only sane woman among all characters, whereas all others are Dumbasses who don't really know what they are doing.

Also notable is the sudden tone shift during Mario's final attack. Previously nonlethal gun wounds are suddenly instakills, and a fall out of the window suddenly becomes deadly when it wasn't before.

Pretty much everyone over-reacts comically and there is a lot of Trigger Happyness on both sides. Their dumbassness may make the other characters more lovable and their atrocities more redeemable. Meggy may seem over-powered due to being more intelligent and less emotionally volatile than the rest.

This may have been interpreted by my brain as, she is manipulating her team and cruelly abusing her intellectual superiority towards Bowser's clan. Also thanks to the Fridge Logic that she has no real motive to join Mario, apart from having action (making her a Type II Nominal Hero). Mario, by comparison, is a Type I Nominal Hero, since spilling his Spaghetti seems to cross his Moral Event Horizon. (Bowser, as seen from the other side, would also be a Type I).

As for the incident with Wendy, this is most apropriately called a Shoot the Dog moment, paired with a near-Senseless Sacrifice since it should have been easy to overpower her in a non-lethal way (just omitting the Finishing Move when she's already downed and instead keeping her in check with Meggy's weapon should have done it). Either way, the plot is cooler with Meggy's Finishing Move, as long as you don't think about it too hard. Wendy's own heavy armament acts to further downplay her helplessness and despair. Also, for anyone sympathizing with her, it wouldn't have made things much better if she was left alive as the only remaining Koopaling.

All of that actually changes nothing with respect to this trope. Heroic characters forming a criminal clan as a response to a misdemeanor and attempting to Kill'Em All definitely qualifies, no matter who of them is the worst now. (Anyways, everyone breaking into the heavily guarded lounge of the hotel isn't that smart of a plan. Bowser's survival also carries its own Fridge Horror, as he may become enslaved as a cook, and he doesn't yet know that he's just lost his entire Patchwork family.)

What may be "autistic" about my spontaneous interpretation is that I'm judging actions, not characters, even when the plot makes it clear who is supposed to be the Good Guy, that I dive deep into Fridge Logic in a video that is meant to be lighthearted entertainment, and that I'm generally taking a nonsense plot way too serious.

Possibly also some unconscious Clang association, in so far that Wendy's sounds in here remind me of a crying child, causing an unwanted sympathy effect. (Though I'm not generally sympathizing with said character.)

Unfortunately, this video has no sequel - that would really be interesting. Think about some Police Are Useless hunting down the team, and when convicted Mario escapes into the forensic lab and resurrects everyone with 1-Up mushrooms - or the like. Similar things happen in other SMG4 videos where characters are apparently Killed Off for Real first. The relatively realistic scenario without any subsequent insertion of Video Game Logic like this is also a reason why this video is a rather dark one. And why one could feel sympathy for anyone who gets killed.

Lol answered my own questions.

Meggy is The Lancer to Mario, The Spock of the team, and a Heroic Comedic Sociopath like Mario himself. But one must say that everyone in this plot is somewhere on the Jerkass scale.

Every character except Mario and Bowser is seen carrying some heavy weapon, including those who apparently don't like using them (Luigi, Boopkins, Lemmy, Wendy). In a gun fight in Real Life, every opponent with a weapon would be considered dangerous and worthy of getting eliminated, even those who are in fact docile and only consider using them when it's about their own lives. Worse still, most real-life mobsters wouldn't even consider getting into Stand-Offs with their enemies, and instead would just sneak-attack and snipe them in a suitable moment. One the other hand, they usually don't kill more people than they need to in order to continue their business. That's at least how professional mobsters typically operate today. However, I think this video leans on the italo-american clan wars in the USA in the 1920s and 1930s, which indeed weren't so much different from what we get to see, only their motives were not so ridiculous.

After all, this is a video of a clan war Played for Laughs. A lot of tragi-comedic tropes are worked into this, and while Mario and his gang are indeed big Jerkasses when you think about it, they still find solutions that are kinda funny and entertaining. Think about Steve's Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy moment.

Or Meggy's zig-zagged Honor Before Reason (first averted - she chases after a panicking Wendy, then played straight - she openly confronts her into a stand-off, then downplayed - when Wendy is unarmed, she doesn't shoot her but instead taunts her into a last desperation attack to subsequently trip her up, and finally sharply averted - sadistically grins at a surrendering Wendy and then kicks her outta window). As our article on Shoot the Dog already says:" Expect the shooter to go for the most Jerkass solution even when Fridge Logic indicates much less morally compromising ones are possible, because Murder Is the Best Solution. ". In that case it's probably the most Jerkass solution that is still funny. Although letting her live wouldn't have made things much better, but Meggy couldn't know that the rest is dead at that point.

BTW when talking about "killing", one never gets to know whether Po, Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings are really dead. They just no longer appear after getting injured, and this gives the impression that they are no longer alive. Also Boopkins suddenly disappears after the Koopalings are shot, while just before he was seen in a Wimp Fight with Lemmy. While there seems to be no reason to assume him dead, it may indicate that he stays in the lounge, mourning the dead Koopalings. Anyway, this adds darkness to the ending, as the clowns - Bob and Boopkins - have been shooed out of the plot. (Bob disappears earlier and for a different reason, and whether or not he survives is subject to speculation.)

So far, all the "heroic" characters in this video are best described as varying degrees of Heroic Comedic Sociopaths, or even Adaptational Villainy in action. My emotional response was probably the result of Youtube comments which praised the "heroes" for their badassness while completely ignoring their jerkassness.

Finally, there is a hint at the very last moment which indicates that Meggy may not be as devoid of feelings as she appears through the rest of the video: When Mario and Bowser finally make piece, she is disgusted at first but then looks rather unsettled, as if she realizes that she has basically just murdered a kid without a reason. (Of course, this is just speculation.) BTW there is an earlier moment where she also isn't smart ... How could he [Bowser] know where we are? Right before, you saw a very obvious hint...

End of my personal discussion (I hope so).

Last comment: In other appearances within SuperMarioGlitchy4, Meggy is indeed usually a less sinister character and more of a Smug Super who is a bit arrogant and overconfident but always on the side of law, justice and order. (Well, law only as long as it's not Lawful Stupid.) This may even be in line with her Canon characterization in the Splatoon series. (Though I don't know that well enough to judge.) And a Combat Pragmatist especially when fighting male characters... Groin Attack and the like, you know.

When I consider newer SMG4 videos, say, from early 2020 on or so, Meggy is actually quite nice, appropriately called the Morality Pet in TVTropes. The Fanon Wiki about SMG4 also paints her overall very positively. I would argue this to be Character Development though, just as Saiko changed from a villain in her first appearance to a jerkass and later to a mostly nice character. The Mario Mafia seems to be a rather exceptional sequel in that sense. Maybe the authors experimented a bit with Meggy and then concluded that they don't like this Knight Templar interpretation, making her nicer and more social in later sequels. (Meggy is still pretty new in The Mario Mafia.) There is even a later video where she's a police officer working with Mr. Monitor, and she opposes his knight-templarish pursue of justice, trying to argue with the transgressors instead of beating them up and torturing them.

It's probably not a coincidence that Meggy's appearance changes from Inkling to Human somewhere through her appearances. While early Meggy isn't really evil, safe from aforementioned exception, she is quite a Trigger Happy adrenaline junkie whose impulse control still has room for improvement. (Sounds a lot like she has Attention Deficit Ooh Shiny.) Human Meggy has grown more social and more level-headed, mirroring her change in appearance from Uncanny Valley to quite cute and adorable.

Apparently almost nobody calls her out for being a huge jerk in The Mario Mafia, because this is a rather singular event which can be seen as an Out of Character moment in an otherwise heroic figure. Also, by quantity she does not cause the biggest havoc - she kills one Koopaling, Steve kills the rest, and Mario lets his fellow Po die after Bowser injured him. You must watch the video carefully to see how she stands out by her seriousness and unstoppable determination to end the rivalry via Final Solution, while the rest follows a rather erratic course of action. Lastly, people are used to seeing Bowser and the Koopalings as the Bad Guys, and therefore some may lack the mental flexibility to look at the thing from another perspective. The video also does anything to obfuscate the picture, like by having them be the first ones to use guns (when Mario vandalizes Bowser's Clown car), or by Wendy pulling BFGs out of nowhere during her stand-off with Meggy (distracting from the fact that Meggy has just cornered her, forcing her to defend). See also Crosses the Line Twice.

Overall, Meggy in SMG4: The Mario Mafia is more a case of Adaptational Villainy that has been forgotten over time, and so gets no longer mentioned in Meggy's characterization. It's just jarring when you read about how warm and friendly she is, and then watch this video... THIS TROPE HERE kicks in with full force. (At least for me.) Mario, Steve and Toad aren't much better, but these are more often seen doing mischief in SMG4 than Meggy. And Bob... is actually quite himself, I think.

Oof. So much interpretation about an 11 min video that was created For the Lulz by two guys who probably didn't think about the plot points that deeply.

Still, I must admit that evil (or Knight Templar) Meggy is interesting. As I said I would enjoy a good fan-made sequel in typical SMG4 style... where the gang's plans go crashing down only to get resolved comically at the end.

New to the thread and haven't read it all yet. SMG4? (I'm guessing from context that SMG doesn't stand for Sarah Michelle Gellar.)

It's SuperMarioGlitchy4. Now I don't want to spam this talk page even more. Others are free to add their own perceptions about the video linked at the top. (Some knowledge about the context is helpful. SMG4 has its own fanon Wiki. Also it's helpful to know about the characters' functions in their original universes.) I've already written pretty much everything I have to say about it, I think.

My conclusion is that it depends on how you interpret Mario's role - if you see him as a hero, he is this trope and his foils as well. But I think he is actually meant to be an adaptational villain, or an Anti-Hero at best.

Maybe Bowser counts as a Designated Villain, although one must admit that he's still a pretty big Jerkass when you consider that he attacks Mario's residence with a machine gun, causing injuries and significant property damage, and that he doesn't even pay off the traitor who allowed him to do this in the first place. So much obvious jerkassery that it eventually leads to his own downfall because the traitor betrays him back. And don't forget about the reason for that all: his frickin' car has been vandalized with graffiti. Maybe the category Anti-Villain fits better here.

Even better Designated Villains are the Koopalings: They only do what Bowser tells them to do, and they only lash out in self-defence, although quite excessively. Looks like they are used to living in a Crapsack World, or they are Properly Paranoid with respect to Mario. (Their antagonism in Super Mario Bros Canon, although a different universe, may justify this to some extent.)

Also, I need to watch the movie again to say for sure, but I mean the Koopalings' hats are brown, which would become grey when you converted the film to black and white. Meanwhile, Mario's hat is black. This gives me some Fridge Logic because in some early black-and-white films, the characters' hats were used to indicate their moral alignment: white = good, grey = neutral, black = evil. (This symbolism is used today to classify hacktivists.) Now I don't know whether this is intentional here, but if it is, it would mean that Mario and his gang are indeed villains, while Bowser and his 'kids' are more Chaotic Neutral or something the like. (Although Bob is also more Chaotic Neutral, as he is just in it for the money.)

As for Meggy's facial expression at the very end, it can mean a lot, but most likely she just realizes that they are pretty much screwed, heading for Final Solution first, but then sparing the boss, provoking Genocide Backfire of some sort. (It depends on how much they communicated beforehand what they are going to do.) In whatever way you try to continue the story, things are very likely to get messy for Mario and his foils. That is, unless the Koopalings aren't dead after all.

When I think about it, there's another reason for my antagonism against Meggy in The Mario Mafia: The plot uses Wendy O. Koopa as a Sacrificial Lion to show how Badass Meggy is, without giving a proper justification for attacking her in the first place. It seems like Wendy is a bit of The Unfavorite of the guys behind SMG4. The Koopalings don't appear often, but when they do, they tend to be either Butt Monkeys or Ineffectual Sympathetic Villains, and when they receive crap, it seems that Wendy always gets an extra portion. (See Bowser loses custody of his children and Stupid Mario World, for other examples.)

I can understand this, as some Canon material from Super Mario Bros. characterizes Wendy as an utter narcissistic Jerkass who is angry all the time and has absolutely nothing sympathetic or even feminine to her.

However, these are not my favorite characterizations of Wendy, as I think they have Unfortunate Implications as, you know, girls can only do evil things when they behave like boys. Evil is masculine and a Girly Girl is automatically Incorruptible Pure Pureness. Plus points for Evil Makes You Ugly, as the most Jerkass depictions of Wendy also tend to be the most physically ugly ones (safe from Super Mario Adventures, where she's actually cute but only When She Smiles, unfortunately a thing that almost never happens there.)

I prefer depicitons like the one in New Super Mario Bros U, or the Fanfics from Eric Forte and Super Mario Richie, where she is a fair mix between the angry Tomboy and the girly Drama Queen. (Also, she's still narcissistic but not completely obnoxious.) If I were to write Fanfic about the Koopalings, that's where I would put Wendy, too. Definitely less Gender Stereotyping involved, although one might argue that a melodramatic depiction is also somewhat "sexist" because, you know, all girls are Drama Queens... It's difficult when there is only a single female character in the cast...

You see, the mere fact that I think about how to best characterize Wendy O. Koopa already shows that I find her somehow interesting. Then if some movie treats her like shit and pretends as if she deserves it without having her do anything plot-relevant before, this results in a Designated Monkey. Especially if her characterization in said movie is actually close to how I would depict her.

Revisiting the Sliding Scale of Anti-Heroes and assuming that Mario is one, I would classify him as type 5 while Meggy, Steve and Toad are Type 4. Luigi is Type 3 at most, since he is more of a Butt Monkey to the rest of his gang than anything else. (But his suffering gets acknowledged, unlike Wendy's.) Bob and Boobkins are mostly "Ineffectual Sympathetic Antiheroes", if that trope exists. (Bob as a Type 5, while Boobkins is rather Type 2.) And Po... another Designated Monkey. We never know what he would be like because he gets injured before he can come into action, and subsequently his Jerkass "friends" just let him die...

Lastly, there is this moment where Lemmy Koopa says he has "crippling depression". And at the end he appears to get killed, like his siblings. To people familiar with depression, this can be a bit of Dude, Not Funny because in real life, it's really no fun to be severely depressed. And thoughts about death and suicide are common when you are in such a state.

I have recently added SMG4 Mario as a Heroic Comedic Sociopath and SMG4 Wendy O. Koopa as a Designated Monkey. By nature of often being heroic comedic sociopaths, Mario and his foils in SMG4 can easily come across as Designated Heroes, which happens whenever they do something a viewer considers Dude, Not Funny. This is a general phenomenon; for example, Mario in SMG4:Stupid Mario World is also a pretty obnoxious Jerkass, and you don't really wonder why Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings don't like him. Yet he crosses the line twice a lot, which makes it funny again (e.g. how he abuses Yoshi). So it may be unnecessary to add SMG4 Mario or supporting characters as Designated Heroes, because in some way it is obvious.

In addition, I'm not sure what role Mario is supposed to play in The Mario Mafia - is he the hero, or is he the villian protagonist? Are we actually expected to root for Mario, or does he behave like a huge jerk in order that we hate him somehow? A mob boss fighting against a rival clan may be either a dark Anti-Hero or a villian in an Evil vs Evil plot.

Concerning Meggy, the trope Took A Level In Jerkass may be appropriate, as this could be used to explain her entire character development - starting from a Jerkass Blood Knight to taking a level in kindness around christmas 2017, then suddenly becoming a Knight Templar in The Mario Mafia, and subsequently developing into a more and more adorable Nice Girl. Other characters in SMG4 often play with Take a Level in Jerkass / Kindness similarly. (Usually being a Jerkass at the beginning, then zig-zagging and eventually becoming relatively benign.)

Lol as much as I have analyzed this video already on this talk page, I could as well write an entire ATT article on it... but I think it would be more important to improve the article on SMG4 first (which at least exists in ATT by now *smile*).

A few things I have already here...

• Mario is either Designated Hero or Villain Protagonist
• depending on that, Meggy is The Lancer or The Dragon
• if Mario is nominally heroic, then Bob is the Token Evil Teammate
• Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings are inversions of the Knight Templar Parent
• Bowser, and more so his kids, are Anti-Villains
• Bowser's kids, and especially Wendy, are Jerkass Woobies; Bob also
• the whole Mario Mafia is an example of Knight Templar, especially towards the end
• Meggy is The Spock
• Luigi is The McCoy
• Bowser's clan uses a lot of A-Team Firing
• Wendy is probably an antagonist Type III Anti-Hero, since she uses drastic measures only when cornered and otherwise just runs for her life and that of Bowser
• Kick Them While They Are Down: the infamous scene where Wendy surrenders and Meggy kicks her out; also when Mario kills his injured foil Po
• Meggy and some of the Koopalings are Blood Knights
• Crosses The Line Twice
• Escalating War
• Took A Level In Jerkass: as already mentioned, Meggy, but also Steve at the end, as well as some of the Koopalings (Larry!)
• Senseless Sacrifice: anyone who dies through the plot
• Crapsack World
• Luigi and Bob are the non-lethal Butt Monkeys
• Lighter shade of black: Apparently Bowser, but this may be only because of lack of opportunity
• Steve becomes a Trojan Horse in the final attack, and then goes Imperial Stormtrooper Markmanship Academy
• anyone can be put somewhere on the Sliding Scale of Anti-Heroes or Anti-Villains
• Too Dumb To Live: Bowser at the end, given that he is a mob boss

etc. pp.

So far, this is no longer an issue to be discussed here. Maybe I will have enough time one day to add a decent list of tropes to the overarching article on SMG4 (or somebody else does if not me), and then we can see further...

...how.

The image seems like completely unrelated whining, and doesn't even provide an example of how the reboot falls into this - and with all the criticisms lobbied towards it, you'd think the uploader could've found at least one before apparently disappearing to never log in again.

It's also Just a Face Logo and a Caption. Removing.