Talk:Lover and Beloved

I see no reason why we have two pages discussing the exact same trope: Lover and Beloved and Sexy Mentor. Since the trope is about a teacher/student dynamic, "Sexy Mentor" is the more descriptive name; I propose we use that and merge the other page into that one.

(Before somebody points out the genders of the people involved, I'll point out that I live in a country where same-sex marriage has been legal for over a decade. The genders of the people involved don't matter.)

(Before somebody points out the genders of the people involved, I'll point out that I live in a country where same-sex marriage has been legal for over a decade. The genders of the people involved don't matter.)

Two decades, now - at least for the province where I live. One-and-a-half decades for the country as a whole.

Agreed -- having one trope split into "gay version" and "straight version" is stupid.

I don't necessarily have the same hostility to having separate versions, but in order for that to occur, there needs to be enough examples in both for both versions to exist. I do think if there are separate versions, there should be some clearer differentiations.

If it makes such a big difference -- and I really doubt it does -- then divvy it up into a "type A" and "type B" like we do on so many other pages.

That seems like a reasonable compromise.

If we're going to list "Type A" and so on, then we need to identify the types. And I'm reminded of how we didn't accept "written by a particular author" as a type when we debated merging "Takahashi Couple" with "Belligerent Sexual Tension".

So, what are the proposed types?

Apparently "straight" and "gay", if I understand Derivative's point correctly.

LT understood correctly.

Then I think it's bogus. Why does the orientation even matter?

I agree with Looney Toons. Quoting myself from three years ago, before we asked for Tropers' opinions:

The genders of the people involved don't matter.

The trope plays out the same no matter whether the people involved are het, bi, or gay. (And if somebody's asexual, the trope doesn't come into play at all.)

My best answer (and I'm not super fixed either way, but I think it's a reasonable concern) is that some would of course want to find out specifically about LGBT representation in media and tropes of such; but more specifically about tropes specifically obtaining to sexual matters. I agree that gender/orientation shouldn't matter but it's a natural classification of sex tropes, which this one is. We already have the two separate lists per sexual orientation. This heavily reduces the work needed to have types in this specific instance. If we were to determine this shouldn't matter at all on this wiki, do we get rid of the Category:Gender and Sexuality Tropes?

If we were to determine this shouldn't matter at all on this wiki, do we get rid of the Category:Gender and Sexuality Tropes?

Maybe we should... if they don't have any bearing on storytelling.

if they don't have any bearing on storytelling.

While this if consensus, would lead to a rather deep debate about what crosses the line as "bearing on storytelling" and what is [find best word to replace background noise here]. I think there's a potentially more agreeable way to put that to one side for now in this article. Looking back at this quote:

The trope plays out the same no matter whether the people involved are het, bi, or gay.

Are we sure that's necessarily accurate? While I am not LGBT myself, I have concerns that this might be overly reductive on the different dynamics that occur between gay and lesbian couples. For example, one study in Taiwan:

Nevertheless, premarital coresidence with parents, which is likely to amplify parental influences on children’s mate selection, deters the entry into and accelerates the dissolution of same-sex relationships more than it does different-sex relationships. Moreover, same-sex relationships are more heterogamous in family economic background, but more homogamous in age and education level, than different-sex ones. —Zhiyong Lin, Wei-hsin Yu & Kuo-hsien Su, https://www.jstor.org/stable/26727006

This is just one study, and I can easily imagine different cultures on different continents might either reduce or increase such differences; however due to the increase of LGBT-related media and openly LGBT writers of media; I think this is something that requires serious caution and looking outwardly to gather further information on this topic.

We're not talking real-world sociodynamics here. We're talking storytelling. If we were to start pointing at real-world equivalents for everything, 90% of our tropes would need wild restructuring. We should do what we've always done -- note that in the real world things don't always play out as simply and easily as they do in fiction, and then go ahead and describe the fiction, not the real world.

My point was more that fiction might be influenced by the reality that people live in, but I understand that it seems like it's a full merge without types at this point.

So far, we've only heard from mods. Let's leave the discussion going for a few days - arguments might be made by other Tropers to change our minds.

in the real world things don't always play out as simply and easily as they do in fiction

It does not surprise me that we have a trope for that. :)

Anyway, my vote is merge, without regard to the gender combinations involved.

Yeah, if there is no practical difference between the two, merge.

Okay, that's three votes to merge, no more discussion in nine days. I've gone ahead and done this. Please take a look and let me know what folks think.

@Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak @Robkelk

Looks good to me - thank you for doing the work.

Of course, now Sexy Mentor is big enough to be a candidate for Examples on Subpages... :)