Talk:Stuffed Into the Fridge

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Broaden definition

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Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

The current definition is: "A character is killed off in a particularly gruesome manner and left to be found just to offend or insult someone, or to cause someone serious anguish."

However according to the wiki, outside the wiki it means: "The term came to be used more broadly, over time, to refer to any character who is killed off, abused, raped, incapacitated, de-powered, or brainwashed for the sole purpose of lending impetus to another (usually male) character." Should we use the later definition?

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Yeah, I'd guess that's a pre-fork artifact. "Fridging" can take many forms - think Barbara in The Killing Joke.

HLIAA14YOG (talkcontribs)

No way I'm gonna use the later definition. It is basically an excuse to attack any work which dares to harm a female character. Should we use? No, in no possible way. I'm not gonna engage in such a radical vision of the world.

And I do not consider Ms. Gordon in the Killing Joke fridging. Harming her served a practical purpose, and latter a technical purpose, Joker was trying to goad her father into evil, since he did not knew if she was alive or dead, mirroring the Joker's own past.

EDIT: "This is what some people use those words for outside the wiki" is a pretty weak argument. I'm not even sure if it's a trope. What radicals in a radical forum call fridging should not mean anything for us. You may propose a new trope to include this concept, but changing this one invalidates the entire purpose of the page existing. It's not "broadening" at all, you are erasing the trope.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

"It is basically an excuse to attack any work which dares to harm a female character."

?

"What radicals in a radical forum call fridging should not mean anything for us."

?????????

What are you on about?

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Alright, let's try to take this from the top and see if I can decipher it:

  • "It is basically an excuse to attack any work which dares to harm a female character."

From the very first paragraph of the current definition:

A character is killed off in a particularly gruesome manner and left to be found just to offend or insult someone, or to cause someone serious anguish. The usual victims are those who matter to the hero, specifically best buddies, love interests, and sidekicks.

And from what Goo quoted:

The term came to be used more broadly, over time, to refer to any character who is killed off, abused, raped, incapacitated, de-powered, or brainwashed for the sole purpose of lending impetus to another (usually male) character.

Notice that neither of the above definitions are exclusive to women - by virtue of including best buddies and sidekicks, in fact, one could argue there are just as many male examples.

  • "No, in no possible way. I'm not gonna engage in such a radical vision of the world."

What about this suggestion makes it remotely indicative of a worldview held by Goo or anyone else, let alone a """radical""" one? That's a lot of assumptions to extrapolate from discussing a trope that can be described "I think this character died just so they could advance the plot." Tropes Are Tools, and like all tools can be used badly - it simply happens that killing characters for shock value tends to be a common "misuse" of such tools.

  • "And I do not consider Ms. Gordon in the Killing Joke fridging. Harming her served a practical purpose, and latter a technical purpose, Joker was trying to goad her father into evil"

...by causing him anguish through disabling his daughter, which was ultimately the extent of her role in the plot - because that's how they wrote it up. Thus, by:

  • Severely injuring her
  • for the purpose of causing Batman and Gordon anguish, and
  • trying to tempt the latter into evil

...it meets the above definition of fridging on a categorical basis, rather than whatever pejorative sense you're picturing it in.

For the record, I think it was poor treatment of Barbara Gordon - but unlike a lot of fridging examples, I think they did "right" by her afterward with Oracle. It aged far better than the animated adaptation's handling of her, that much is certain.

  • ""This is what some people use those words for outside the wiki" is a pretty weak argument. I'm not even sure if it's a trope."

...how is that a """weak argument""" when it's literally the foundation of how troping works period - by identifying patterns in fiction and identifying their use and applications? And on the note of weak arguments, how is the easily observable trend of killing off a character's friends and/or family to cause them angst not a trope?

It really just seems like you're protesting the potential viewing of a trope in a way that you, personally, dislike and are just trying to rationalize it after the fact.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)
Robkelk (talkcontribs)

As for expanding the definition of this trope...

However according to the wiki, outside the wiki it means: "The term came to be used more broadly, over time, to refer to any character who is killed off, abused, raped, incapacitated, de-powered, or brainwashed for the sole purpose of lending impetus to another (usually male) character." Should we use the later definition?

This trope covers "killed off" already. We have Attempted Rape and Rape as Drama to cover "raped", and Brainwashed to cover "brainwashed".

However...

Looking at other pages that link here, I see that we're already using the broadened definition on All The Tropes. An example from Batgirl:

  • Stuffed Into the Fridge: Her injury in The Killing Joke is this, no question. It's been noted that she's not so much a character in that story as she is a plot device to cause Commissioner Gordon and Batman pain. Alan Moore is on the record saying that this was a case where DC probably should have reigned him in.

(Once I finish typing this up, I'll go over there and fix the "reigned"/"reined" typo.)

We have the precedent with Adult Child, which was originally defined as One of the Kids but in general usage is Man Child -- actual usage on All The Tropes takes precedence over the written definition.

So, yeah - I'm willing to see the written definition broadened (as much as I personally tend toward being a splitter in the Lumper vs. Splitter continuum).

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

I'm pretty sure that not all instances of Rape as Drama and Attempted Rape fall under the broader definition of Stuffed Into the Fridge

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

Concur with your take, Rob. Given how the meaning has currently evolved due to circumstance, I'd lump instead of split myself.

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

I don't think the broader definition is right. I thought fridging was about a death that from a narrative stand point is only to cause a more prominent character pain and the death of the side character is reduced to (perhaps requirement: temporarily) causing a narratively more important character pain. I'm not sure impetus should be required. If a hero is going to stop a bad guy and then his girlfriend gets fridged, and then he still plans on stopping the bad guy, then there was no real impetus.

Perhaps we should replace impetus with causing pain or make either impetus or pain suffice on their own.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

If my choice was restricted to one of those two, I'd lean towards "solely for the sake of pain/angst" personally.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

That's a fair argument, @Umbire the Phantom. Upon further review, the trope does seem to have as much a narrative as a personal element, but ultimately the goal is, from the writer perspective, to incite drama regarding those emotions of the reader/viewer. The other aspects of the trope seem incidental to that raison d'etre.

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