Talk:Transgender

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24.96.41.232 (talkcontribs)

Speaking as a trans person myself here, I can't help but notice that the language used in this article is frozen in time from several years ago. It's not bad, but people don't tend to say "transsexual" today so it seems to me that it would be better for "Transgender" to be the main page and "Transsexual" to be a redirect to "Transgender".

Of course much of this is just an unfortunate side effect of ATT lacking the volume to stay completely up-to-date on these kinds of constantly evolving things. (I'm just glad bigots haven't appropriated the page.)

I'd also be interested in fixing this up and bringing it up to speed with what things are like these days. :) That stuff I can do of my own volition, but a whole page move would be a big thing so I wanted to discuss it first.

I'll probably want to work off of the "Transsexualism" page as a base, its contents are better than the "Transgender" page for working off I think.

(Writing this here because a ban on new pages with the word "sex" prevents doing so on the "Transsexualism" page.)

24.96.41.232 15:53, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Carlb (talkcontribs)

I disagree. I have no stake in the issue, but "transgender" is a broader term than "transsexual" as the latter infers making some rather permanent and intrusive physiological changes - which medicalizes this, and which some but not all TG's pursue. Arguably all TS's are TG, but not all TG's are TS.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)
Carlb (talkcontribs)

Both transvestite (TV, someone who dresses as another gender) and transsexual (TS, someone who takes various measures to actually live as that other gender) would fall within the larger TG (transgender) umbrella, but there is a huge difference. TS is not so much an "old" term as a narrower term, with a more specific meaning than TG.

Onpon4 (talkcontribs)

I've talked to a lot of people in the trans community and am a part of it myself. No one I know sees it that way. My experience is that the term "transsexual" isn't used at all by most people, and of those who do use it, most are truscum looking to exclude nonbinary people or TERFs looking to divide the trans community by telling some of them that they're "transsexuals" and that they're okay with that but not "transgender ideology".

There was a faction war (so to speak) way back between people who used the term "transsexual" and people who used the term "transgender", which I wasn't around for, but AIUI the former group basically consisted of transmedicalists (trans people who hold the belief that a trans person is only really trans if they experience extreme dysphoria and "medically transition" by taking HRT and getting surgeries). Transmedicalists soundly lost that dispute years ago, though they're still around of course and many of them still use the word "transsexual" to differentiate themselves. Most trans people today (in my experience) reject that differentiation though, because it implies that there's something wrong with not "medically" transitioning or that some people are "less trans" than others. Nonbinary people are especially likely to be targeted with this by TERFs.

It's worth noting by the way that one of the reasons the shortened form "trans" is more common than the long forms (AIUI) is because of a truce in the times of the split, as a way to avoid bringing up those faction wars and keep the peace.

As for transvestites, historically "transvestites" have been under the trans umbrella (I don't know about the transgender umbrella). But nowadays, I haven't ever seen anyone who uses the term "transvestite" in a non-historical, unironic context. "Cross-dresser" and "drag queen" are more common in my experience. I don't think anyone I've ever seen thinks of cross-dressers as transgender today. They seem to me to more included under the wider LGBTQ+ umbrella (especially the G and Q aspects).

Carlb (talkcontribs)

Certainly I've seen T*, trans person or simply "trans" used as the umbrella term to refer to all of TG, TV, TS and the like, with TG being a broad category which overlaps all of TV or TS. A "drag queen" is a bit more specific - a deliberate exaggeration or parody for theatrical or entertainment purposes. One normally doesn't live a DQ persona 24/7. TV could be part-time, as in Yakov Smirnoff reading employment announcements of "Part-Time Woman Wanted": "What a country! Even transvestites can get work." Upon being offered work as a barman on a "graveyard shift", he remarks, 'A bar in a cemetery! What a country!" where last call is final.

As for a "faction war"? If you're labelling "transmedicalists" within the trans community as "truscum" or scum of any kind, that is creating an "us" vs. "them" here. Is that what you intend?

Onpon4 (talkcontribs)

"Truscum" isn't a term I invented. It's in common use. Look it up.

As for "creating an 'us' vs. 'them'", I would say that the people doing that are those who gatekeep who is "really" or "truly" a trans person. "Truscum" is a pejorative for that Transer Than Thou attitude which is trying to exclude nonbinary people, trans people who don't want to go through HRT, etc. "Truscum" is just a way to call them out on that.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

I think we need to define terms. You're the first person I've ever seen suggest that transvestism has something to do with transgendered people... and a close friend of mine does sound work for one of the larger local "drag" shows, so I suspect I'd have heard that idea before if transvestites believed it.

I was the one who misunderstood your statement to mean surgery - sorry about that. The M-W definition of transgender doesn't mention gender reassignment of any form at all.

Carlb (talkcontribs)

Nonetheless, I disagree with the item which says 'An older term you might come across is "transsexual". This term is technically identical in meaning to "transgender", albeit largely outdated today in the trans community.'

The term is perfectly valid (and not outdated) but not identical in meaning. "Transsexual" is narrower in meaning than "transgendered", although the two overlap.

The rest of this is blatantly political: 'Nowadays, though, it is usually viewed with suspicion because transphobes and "truscum" have a knack for using this term to exclude trans people who don't fit the stereotype of a man turning into a woman or vice-versa.'

This article should not be a soapbox for calling others "holier than thou" and "true scum" (in whatever spelling) unless we want to be taking sides to favour one group of transgendered persons in a political dispute with some other group within the LGBT community.

Define terms like TERF if you have to, but let's not take a political position for or against plastic surgery or any of the other options or this article is a political statement.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

MOD:

ATT:ACAFREE is clear: "The site administration will not censor for politics, prudery or prejudice. Period."

Complaining about something being a political statement won't get us to change an article.

Complaining that a political statement isn't marked as a political statement does not require mod intervention - simply edit the page. Only if that touched off a flame war will we need to step in.

Carlb (talkcontribs)

Ordinarily, yes, but there's already a huge warning box on the page saying that editing this could start a flamewar... so it's not so simple in this case.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

I have no objection to anything that you've proposed doing here. Please feel free to clean up these pages!

Also, thank you for recognizing that it's a lack of volume that's stopped us from updating these pages, and not a lack of will.

Just one thing - because of somebody who isn't as considerate as you are here, there's a possibility that we might be temporarily restricting editing to logged-in users some time in the new year. You might need to create an account here in order to make the changes that you want to make. (You don't need to use your real name as your account name, in case that's a concern.)

Onpon4 (talkcontribs)

Cool! (I was the author of that comment, I have no problem using this account.)

Onpon4 (talkcontribs)

Whew! That was quite some effort! I think the page is generally up-to-speed now, though I might have missed some outdated language in the examples (since there's so many).

Now all that needs to happen is the "Transsexualism" page needs to be redirected to here and it should be good to go! I don't have permission to edit that page, would a mod be able to do that for me? Thanks!

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Done.

And, again, thank you for being willing to do this work for the wiki. Happy holidays!

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Oh cool. It's great to see one of my "to do" pages come off the list. Thanks, Onpon4!

Edit: Oh, and sorry for the inconvenience about the "sex" titles. It is, as you've probably guessed, there to stop spammers. Given recent attempts, though, I'm thinking we need to replace it with "dentistry". <grin>

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