The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures/Headscratchers
- So, what's up with Ganondorf in Four Swords Adventures? The Gerudo make it sound like he hasn't even become Ganon yet. So are there really two Ganondorfs, or what?
- I always figured that one of the Links finally killed him off for real, but he managed to preserve his spirit and his memory so that he could reincarnate as a new Gerudo baby. . . I also remember that I chucked his entire appearance in that game into the Fanon Discontinuity bin.
- The problem with this theory is that there is absolutely no proof of Ganondorf being able to reincarnate att all.
- No proof except every character using that name looking very similar and behaving very similar, causing players to assume that there is a connection- probably of soul due to the lack of Ganondorf having chances to get laid
- Why can't anyone accept that there could be multiple Ganondorfs just as there are multiple Links and Zeldas? Ganon's killed off for real in ALttP, the Oracles, Zelda 1, possibly the Wind Waker AND Twilight Princess.
- People also assume that the Links and Zeldas are reincarnations (or the Links at least; the Zeldas its probably just blood). Again, they look and behave much too similar for there not to be a connection of some sort.
- Because Ganon's main schtick is that he is the same guy throughout all the games. The fact that he's immortal/resurrectable has been a major point in many of the Zelda games, including Zelda 2, the Oracle games, The Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess (Read: most of the games you mentioned). The thought of there being more than one Ganon doesn't gel with how he's been (mostly) consistently represented.
- No, it does gel. It gels perfectly. Yes, resurrection and breaking out of whatever seal has been a plot point for him, but only once can we say for certain that one Ganon crossed two Links. The guy's been crowned king of whatever multiple times, he's discovered Link for the first time multiple times...Hell, the only time he outright taunts Link with "I'll be back", which would be necessary if the implication was that he's the same guy, is when he's definitely sealed and not killed in Ocarina of Time. And in each of those games, it doesn't go as planned - Zelda 2: The resurrection fails. Oracles: Ganon is brought back as a mindless, raging beast, because the ritual was half-assed. His remains are obliterated. Now, keep in mind, with the setup from only these two games, what you're saying is possible. BUT - The Wind Waker: Ganon is killed at the bottom of the sea. But hey, maybe he's only sealed! But it doesn't matter, because this all takes place during the death of Hyrule. Twilight Princess: Ganon dies(hey, he could still come back, right!?)...and loses the Triforce of Power. You cannot construct a timeline, even with no regard to the games' plots, that makes sense of all this still being the same guy. Hell, add one more death: "Ganon has been totally destroyed" is a direct quote from ALttP. Yes, we are talking about a man who people love to bring back. But that does not mean he can't be reincarnated just like the other two holders of the Triforce(which everyone else in this kingdom seems to be blissfully unaware of). And there's nothing in the games themselves or, hell, even by the creators, that say "Hey, look, this is the same guy". They just say..."Ganon". It's what we're used to. There's no representation. I want some quotes or, hell, something.
- Okay, point. But there's one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet; there are no Gerudo. Outside of Ocarina of Time (and by extension Majora's Mask) and Four Swords Adventure, there is zero Gerudo presence. Ganondorf, on the other hand, is always a Gerudo. By logic, he has to be the same guy, since if he dies, there's no way for him to reincarnate as a Gerudo, since all of the rest of them have died out/moved away/whatever. Also of note is that Ganon's motivations never change. looking back, none of the Heroes, none of the Princesses have ever known who they were/used to be until someone explicitly told them "You are the Hero". Ganondorf, on the other hand, has always known his purpose, has always known his powers, and has always recognized his enemies for who they were, unlike Link and Zelda, who generally have no clue.
- Huh. That's a pretty good point. I'll have to think about that one.
- The triforce trio does not reincarnate in canon. Not one of them. It's all fanfiction.
- Not fanfiction, Fanon. Fanon in this case derrived from a unity of characterization and appearance lacking in other Legacy Characters or even heroes of the same world (Tales games, Dragon Quest games 1-3 and 4-6, Phantasy Star, Star Ocean). Theres so much similarity that people assume a conection of some sort is probably there.
- Quote from Ganondorf, near the end of Wind Waker: "Yes, surely you are the Hero of Time, reborn..." He definitely recognizes Link from their past meetings. Of course, this Ganon(dorf) is supposed to be the same as the one that was sealed - not killed - in Ocarina of Time's Adult timeline.
- The triforce trio does not reincarnate in canon. Not one of them. It's all fanfiction.
- Well, duh. Anyone could've told you that. Of course those two are the same guy. Doesn't mean they all are, though.
- Separate timeline after OoT, means the Wind Waker Ganondorf can die without it affecting the other timeline. The only thing that needs to be figured is the Alttp and TP ones. Maybe the first one, they were just...wrong and he WASN'T destroyed.
- I totally agree that OoT, TWW and TP Ganon are all the same guy. Beyond that, though, there's practically no evidence.
- If TP Ganon is the same guy, then why is he uninterested in obtaining the other pieces of the Triforce? He never mentions them, he never actively goes after them. He appears to believe that the Triforce of Power is all that's necessary. This is a direct contradiction of the belief held by OoT Ganondorf, who while becoming the Tyrant King of Hyrule decides that he isn't done until he's master of the world through his wish granted by the Gods. The TP Triforce bearers, while admitting each other's significance, all seem to decide that their 'chosen power of the Gods' (they never even USE the term Triforce) is all that's alotted to them, and they CAN'T gain anymore. Ganondorf gains extra power through manipulation of the Twili, Zelda calls upon the power of the Spirits of Light, and Link does his traditional move of upgrading by drawing the evil-banishing sword, one of the few items specific to the Triforce of Courage (none of the heroes without the Triforce has ever wielded it). You can talk about Ganondorf abducting Zelda, but the fact of the matter is, he didn't. Zelda's life force and possibly the Triforce of Wisdom were given to Midna so she wouldn't die, and Ganondorf never comes after them. There's also the fact that TP specifically takes place 100 years after OoT. Which is enough time for a new Ganondorf to be born and, considering that OoT Ganon had been around some time before the events in OoT, grow up to get kidnapped.
- Word of God says it is the same Ganon from Oo T to Twilight Princess. When Link is sent to his childhood, he warns Princess Zelda of Ganondorf's plot and he's arrested, and sentenced to be executed. This is where Twilight Princess fills us in that Ganondorf broke out of the chains and killed the Water Sage, and was then banished to the Twilight Realm. Now I know you'll say "How did Ganondorf get the Triforce of Power then if he never entered the Sacred Realm?" Well simply put, it's because the Triforce transcends space and time. He obtained it in one timeline, so he has it in both. This might also be why he never went after the Triforce pieces in Twilight Princess, because when he saw the Triforce symbol appear on his hand, since he had never come into contact with the real thing in this timeline, he thought he had the whole Triforce.
- I remember a plot point in OoT where Ganondorf DID get the entire triforce, but he did not have a balance of Courage, Wisdom, and Power, so he couldn't keep the entire thing. Ganondorf probably realized that this meant it was pointless for him to even attempt getting the other 2 pieces, so he looked for an alternate route to power.
- Not exactly. That happens when someone first touches it in the Sacred Realm. If you manage to collect the other two pieces after that happens, then you get your wish, which is what happened in the end of Wind Waker.
- If we accept Ganon's being the same is his schtick, there's nothing to say we have to assume he's different in the other games. His appearence in the Oracle games is self-contained. In the Adult Timeline, OoT Ganondorf and WW Ganondorf are the same, and in the Child timeline, OoT Ganondorf and TP Ganondorf are the same. ALttP, LoZ, and FSA are the only ones left unexplained, and, as mentioned earlier, his purpose is very straightforward and indicative of the same being. Whereas the games make a point of saying there are multiple Links, the only game that creates a conflict here is FSA.
- Not so. The trident was a soul jar. The inscription in the pyramid said that it housed an evil spirit, and whoever possessed the trident would be King of Darkness. Obviously, at some point Ganon, King of Darkness, decided to infuse the trident with part of himself as a back-up plan, in case that pesky Hero managed to off him. Then, when some plucky young megalomaniac picks up the trident, Ganon possesses him. We already know from Agahnim and Puppet Zelda that possession is possible. And it would be the sort of dickish move that Ganon would do. Promise and deliver untold power, at the expense of someone else being in charge of your body.
- Huh. I like this theory.
- Not so. The trident was a soul jar. The inscription in the pyramid said that it housed an evil spirit, and whoever possessed the trident would be King of Darkness. Obviously, at some point Ganon, King of Darkness, decided to infuse the trident with part of himself as a back-up plan, in case that pesky Hero managed to off him. Then, when some plucky young megalomaniac picks up the trident, Ganon possesses him. We already know from Agahnim and Puppet Zelda that possession is possible. And it would be the sort of dickish move that Ganon would do. Promise and deliver untold power, at the expense of someone else being in charge of your body.
- I figure that the Four Swords series of games (Minish Cap, Four Swords, and Four Swords Adventure) were in a third timeline separate from the others. It'd at least explain why Vaati hasn't shown up in any of the other games yet.
- If TP Ganon is the same guy, then why is he uninterested in obtaining the other pieces of the Triforce? He never mentions them, he never actively goes after them. He appears to believe that the Triforce of Power is all that's necessary. This is a direct contradiction of the belief held by OoT Ganondorf, who while becoming the Tyrant King of Hyrule decides that he isn't done until he's master of the world through his wish granted by the Gods. The TP Triforce bearers, while admitting each other's significance, all seem to decide that their 'chosen power of the Gods' (they never even USE the term Triforce) is all that's alotted to them, and they CAN'T gain anymore. Ganondorf gains extra power through manipulation of the Twili, Zelda calls upon the power of the Spirits of Light, and Link does his traditional move of upgrading by drawing the evil-banishing sword, one of the few items specific to the Triforce of Courage (none of the heroes without the Triforce has ever wielded it). You can talk about Ganondorf abducting Zelda, but the fact of the matter is, he didn't. Zelda's life force and possibly the Triforce of Wisdom were given to Midna so she wouldn't die, and Ganondorf never comes after them. There's also the fact that TP specifically takes place 100 years after OoT. Which is enough time for a new Ganondorf to be born and, considering that OoT Ganon had been around some time before the events in OoT, grow up to get kidnapped.
- This version of Ganon is from the Child side of the timeline where he was unable to claim the triforce at all in OoT and had to find another source of power to realize his evil plans. The events directly precede ALttP, and every appearance of Ganon as a pig-man with a trident are from this same timeline, and all games featuring Ganondorf as a human with a vague association with pigs is from the Adult timeline. Frankly, this is the game that makes the timeline make sense.
- Almost correct: Hyrule Historia states that this Ganondorf was a reincarnation of the one who was defeated in Twilight Princess; however, ALttP (and all the other games released before Ocarina) take place in an alternate timeline where OoT Link loses.
- Why the heck did Vaati spend all his time lusting after young girls in Four Swords? He's a giant eyeball, what the heck would he do with them? This makes even less sense when you consider he was originally a minish.
- He got tentacles too, y'know...
- This troper always figured that, being an attractive guy with a lot of power, there would be girls who would go after him like cats in heat regardless of his evilness. (Please note that it's been a while since she's played MC, so she can't remember where he was for most of it...) He could have developed a taste for young girls, and eventually it became something of an obsession. ...Yes, this is mostly based on the fact that he has a huge fanbase.
- How does this game take place after Twilight Princess on the Child Timeline?