Topic on Forum:Trope Talk

Yet something else I also brought up once on TVT, and still has problems.

The term "Ghost Ship" can refer to two things in normal usage:

1. A derelict ship.
2. A ship crewed by ghosts.

Ghost Ship currently means the first of these, rather than being a disambiguation, which is already confusing. It then claims that "If you're looking for otherworldly ships with tattered sails crewed by the damned, see Afterlife Express."

If you go to Afterlife Express, almost all of the text claims that it specifically is about a ship that transports souls to the afterlife--not about any old ship crewed by ghosts. Only the word "often" suggests otherwise.

Flying Dutchman often covers the second meaning of Ghost Ship, but it isn't the same thing; for one thing, it can be about a ship that's cursed without anyone being dead. Also, it needs to have Wandering Jew made into a separate trope.

Furthermore, "crewed by ghosts" and "to the afterlife" can also apply to trains. And Ghost Ship is named after ships and Afterlife Express after trains--that implies that the dividing line is based on type of vehicle when it certainly isn't. (I can't think of anything other than ships and trains that does this commonly enough to be called a trope.)

In other words, it's all sort of right but confusing and not quite.

Possible solution:

• Ghost Ship is a disambiguation for three tropes:
  1. Derelict Ship
  2. Haunted Ship. Also includes ships that are themselves supernatural.
  3. Afterlife Express
• Flying Dutchman can be the second but isn't necessarily.
• Names are up for grabs--there may be better ones.

On TVT there was also the idea of distinguishing between a haunted ship and a ship crewed by ghosts, which I'm no longer so sure about. Link to TVT discussion: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1301884599098664600

I agree, that is confusing.

"Crew Of Ghosts" could cover the crew of any vessel composed of spirits.

I like the disambiguation proposal.

I'm also wondering if we should separate out Ghost Train as well.

That's probably a good idea.

Actually looking at the Ghost Ship trope, it seems that there are a lot of examples that are about things that are not literally ghosts, but are demons, the sci-fi equivalent of ghosts, or something else that is not strictly speaking a ghost but is supernatural and/or an undead version of the crew. Seldom do people encounter an abandoned ship and find only mundane threats.

So now I'm tempted to rewrite the definition to make it supernatural (and not to tell people to go to Afterlife Express for supernatural ships) and to have a mundanely abandoned ship not be a trope at all.

What do people think?

That actually sounds like a good idea.

Yes, there definitely is such a trope. But this would leave "missing supertrope": it works much the same way with Giant Mutant Fleas, and other critters, up to degenerate descendants of the former crew. E.g. WH40k hulks, and even less-staffed used ships, are full of such things. But the name would not quite fit even your version. And there would be inevitable overlap. Perhaps something like "Derelict Denizens"? With "Ghost Ship" left as disambiguation.