Topic on User talk:NoxiousSludge

DocColress (talkcontribs)

I saw that yesterday a Lusamine write-up went up on the Pokemon CM page only to get almost immediately taken down, and both were done by you. I don't understand what was going on there but I'm sure you know full well that not only was Lusamine not discussed prior to the write-up, but she's on the "Examples That Should NOT Be Seen Here" entry of the page's Discussion page. And while TV Tropes' standards and criteria differ from ours in some areas, they also almost unanimously voted her down regardless of how anyone might personally feel about her and her crimes.

There were a few inaccuracies to the write-up as well. Lusamine was called "most depraved, vile antagonist in the series to date", but this might seem like an opinionated statement since the bar has gone very high ever since Gen 4 (though Cyrus is looking better and better now that three Big Bads after him have been directly homicidal to the good guys whereas he was not). The "have them destroy the world" part left out some context for why she'd wanted that - she believed that Nihlego wanted to have an open wormhole between worlds to roam freely into the world just as she wanted it so that she could live in Ultra Space, with the whole "reality destruction" part being collateral damage. In typical Lusamine fashion, she believed she was acting "loving" towards the UBs and easing their pain and confusion when she would be in fact only causing them more pain and confusion by stranding them outside of Ultra Space. The "And even after being defeated in battle, she attempts to murder Lillie in a fit of rage" part is misleading because, IIRC, she'd vowed to murder Lillie prior to being defeated in battle - when she went down for good, a part of her snapped awake from her intoxicated state and recognized that her child was beautiful on the inside and outside even without being dressed to resemble Nihilego, which had become her gold standard for perfect beauty and worthiness of affection. That along with what we hear about her having wanted to go to your Champion luau celebration at the end of the game suggests she's recovering and decreases, if not outright kills, her qualifying for CM. And last, the "it's an inhibition nullifier that caused her to act on existing urges" part was misinterpreted, as the "existing urges" that Lusamine acted on were the urges to love and give affection to what and who she saw as beautiful and in need of loving, while casting out anything not so (anything "ugly" and "undesirable"). In her normal state of mind with her inhibitions raised and properly functioning, Lusamine, while flawed and a bit shallow and conceited, was a loving parent, wife, and caretaker of Pokemon, having inherited a great love of needy Pokemon from her father who'd founded the company and being so dedicated to finding the lost love of her live (her husband Mohn, having been lost to a wormhole) and providing for her family that she continued the research and experiments on UBs, Ultra energy, and wormholes to begin with. But when intoxicated by Nihilego's Neurotoxins (which happens when Nihilego latches onto a host and pretty much possesses it, as Guzma detailed after his encounters with Nihilego in Ultra Space), her inhibitions and thus her moral compass are nullified and all of her natural feelings, thoughts, and actions are made to be directed towards and revolve around Nihilego, as is explained in Nihilego's Dex Entry about it's "protective measure." The postgame further elaborates on Lusamine's Start of Darkness and on the effects of UB Toxin, particularly Nihilego's, and establishes that while not in her right mind, Lusamine is a horrible monster, when she was in her right mind, she was fairly decent and caring despite any of her faults. Therefore, Lusamine's moral and mental agency was severely impaired even if it wasn't actual Brainwashing, which rules her out of counting as a CM. (Also, calling Type: Null a "chimera-abomination Pokemon" was rather on the cruel side seeing as, like other man-made Pokemon, it's shown to have positive qualities and existential value beyond the circumstances of it's birth.)

Please don't feel bad or go down on yourself for any misunderstandings here. This was an honest mistake that just needed some clearing up.

NoxiousSludge (talkcontribs)

Yeah, I'm real sorry about that. I actually didn't know that Lusamine had been added to the do not add page (I've barely been here the past few months, been busy with a lot of other games and a Steven Universe fanfic that I've kinda sorta been penning up due to absolutely HATING how the show handled a favorite character of mine, but that's neither here nor there, hee hee). I really should have looked there instead of wasting my time spending a few months debating on whether I should or should not post her. Because geez, she is to me what Ghetsis is to you. ._.

But I'm not gonna be like a certain ban evader and her alt account- er, sister and beat a dead horse: I'll let sleeping dogs lie. And hey, I honestly took down her entry after immediately regretting it since I knew that it wasn't gonna fly (As loathsome, unlikable, and honestly, incredibly unsympathetic as I find her, you really can't ignore her final moment on screen). And as for getting the detail regarding the circumstances of her trying to kill Lillie wrong, chalk that up to me posting without refreshing my memory. I totally thought that was what happened. :p

But I dunno, I honestly just can't bring myself to really feel sorry for her. Even with Nihelego's venom taken into account, I still don't feel that it makes her sympathetic in the slightest since even if she were fanatically devoted to looking out for her parasite's well-being, things like her awful behavior towards her children and the way she callously hurt other Pokemon can't really be explained with "The big bad Ultra Beast made her do it, she's just a poor innocent victim!"

But I dunno, in general I just couldn't stand her character, which is funny because I think Gen 7 was really strong characterization-wise. Mainly it's because she ran afoul of probably the queen mother of "tropes" that rub me the wrong way: forcing you to feel sorry for a villain who doesn't warrant any sympathy, or commits actions too horrible to balance out their more sympathetic qualities (And on top of that they gave her a half-assed redemption. She's right up there with Hilda and Sasuke in regards to unsympathetic "tragic" villains who got off way too easy). But also, the Aether Foundation just... weren't really good villains. Just about everyone saw the "Aether Foundation are evil" twist coming from a mile away, and I can't help but feel that unlike Team Skull, they weren't fleshed out enough. Their only real saving graces to me are the fact that the female grunts and Wicke are adorable.

But hey, I'm not gonna rant and go nuts. Like I said, I'll concede and let it be since while I heavily disagree with the notion, she doesn't count. And on an unrelated note, it looks like I'm gonna have to delete a CM entry I made for Yellow Diamond on Steven Universe's YMMV page since barring a plot twist revealing that she's faking it, Yellow seems to have a genuine redeeming quality going for her as of the most recent episode (And on that note, I'm also worried that she'll fall victim to "Clumsily handled "Sympathetic" villain syndrome since the show's writing has been less-than-steller lately). Talk about jumping the gun, heh heh.

DocColress (talkcontribs)

(What SU character in question due you think the show mishandled?) Well, Lusamine is a character who not only easily could have been a CM were not for the mitigating factors, but easily could be one in another adaptation if that incarnation removes the mitigating factors and makes her someone who knew damn well what intoxicating herself so much would do to her and what consequences her kids might suffer, but didn't care because she just came to see her obsession with all things Ultra Beast as worth more than the family she used to love and view as beautiful but now writes off as having grown ugly and worth discarding with no remorse at all.

But I can actually understand and appreciate why the game mitigated her villainy with the whole Drunk on the Dark Side angle and made her more tragic and potentially redeemable in the end, since otherwise she'd basically be Ghetsis' Distaff Counterpart and that would be pretty unoriginal. It's more interesting that contrast to Ghetsis, who acted solely for the love of himself and had either apathy or outright contempt for everyone else, Lusamine acted on what she believed was pure (albeit conditional) love for others that she found beautiful and worthy of her love, but it was truly out of a selfishness and madness in herself that she could no longer comprehend, and instead saw everyone who reacted understandably to how she hurt them as being the ungrateful, selfish, hateful ones - it's like morality was flipped on it's head for her intoxicated understanding of a situation versus the situations' actual reality. As for how much I feel for her, it's kind of in the middle - on one hand she's someone who'd never have said or done any of the things she did were she in her right state of mind, but on the other hand her intoxication is a direct result of her own carelessness and obsession with the work she did out of love. We see Guzma get possessed/intoxicated by Nihilego once and after that single occurrence of it, he backed the fuck off and never wanted to go through that again. But Lusamine, being bolder and more ambitious in her research, chose to keep doing it to herself. She wouldn't have become the abusive monster she became had she only recognized what should not be messed with and thought of the consequences. She's a Tragic Villain but not an innocent victim. Like Cyrus and Lsyandre before her, she's the architect of her own self-destruction.

YMMV because, as I said, I did feel sorry for her when everything about her became cleared up, and while her insanity in no way excuses her actions she committed while under the influence of the insanity-stimulation, it does give even her worst Moral Event Horizon moments a more understandable driving force aside from just "because she's evil." (Not sure about "got off way too easy" since she very nearly died from her merger with Nihilego and we have no idea what comes after her recovery - it's very likely she still has to serve time for her crimes against the Alola region and not have any custody of her kids anymore). I also liked the Aether Foundation as villains, but I prefer Team Skull as well. Doesn't everyone? XD

As for Yellow Diamond, I actually think the pain she feels in regards to Pink Diamond might go deeper than it does with Jasper or Blue Diamond, since I theorize that Yellow's probably directly responsible for what happened and why Rose had to shatter Pink. Which would show that for all her rage at Rose and atrocities against other Gems and Earth, there's a guilt factor at play too, which would also be something to disqualify her as an example. I do wonder about White Diamond, though - they could be saving her to be the final enemy and it's possible that she'll turn out to be the only antagonist who is just a flat out evil asshole ala Fire Lord Ozai. We'll just have to wait and see. (Disagree on the show's writing - I think it's still going pretty strong.)

NoxiousSludge (talkcontribs)

Alright, my crappy tablet's browser tends to crash pretty easily, so I'll make this quick:

Steven Universe I feel has gone downhill simply because I feel that it deals with too much unnecessary angst. I see no reason why Steven should feel that Rose did something horrible by shattering Pink Diamond when she was a heartless, facsist tyrant who upheld an empire that strip-mines planets into oblivion and opresses its subjects, and personally kidnapped humans for her own sick amusement. Similarly, I thought that Jasper was a sadistic monster who got what she deserved and that the show's attempt to force you to feel sorry for her after what she's done was pathetic (As far as I'm concerned, her treatment of Amethyst put her past the point of no return).

There are lots of other reasons, but they'd take too long to list (Short version: I hate how Lapis and Peridot have been written, the plot moves at a glacial pace, and in general the show lost its magical delightful feel after season 2).

Anyway, my fanfic is actually a "WHat if?" story starring Lapis Lazuli, and basically it follows a route where instead of staying at the barn, Lapis decided to talk things over with Steven, and leave Earth and head for a star system that Homeworld tried and failed to conquer in the past. And in that star system, Lapis tries to find her place in the universe by combating space pirates with the help of a small band of adventurers, all the while trying to combat anti-Gem sentiment as well as her feelings of self-loathing, depression, and anxiety.

This probably sounds super dumb (And angsty: I genuinely want it to be a comedic adventure with the occasional bits of heavy themes here and there), but I'm having a lot of fun writing it. I totally must sound arrogant for this, but I just wanted to write something fun for a character who I feel had the ball dropped with her writing.

DocColress (talkcontribs)

So basically you don't like the shades of gray getting darker? I really don't think that's fair since it's missing a rather large point of the show - how complicated life is and how everyone is someone who has problems that they deal with in different ways, so things are rarely so simple as being cases of pure good or pure evil. Have we ever seen Pink Diamond in a flashback yet and seen what she was like? If not, then how can we call her a heartless tyrant, and know for certain that the human zoo was for "her own sick amusement?" I thought the implication was that she loved Earth and humanity, and the zoo was done out of that love - the sentiment was innocent but the expression of it (kidnapping and imprisoning) was twisted. I theorize that Pink Diamond and Rose Quartz might have actually bonded over their feelings towards Earth and Rose might have rehabilitated Pink had circumstances not taken a turn for the worse and forced Rose's sword against Pink Diamond (which, again, I suspect is Yellow Diamond's fault and she harbors secret guilt over it). We're already seeing some of that with Blue Diamond, who we never knew personally outside of Ruby and Sapphire's POV in their backstory, but now see that she's not at all what we might have pre-conceived her to be. In fact, that seems to be a big thing with the show's villains - it shows you the results of their actions first so that you get a perception of what they must be like, then challenge that perception when you get to see and learn more about them personally. Nothing changes that what they've done is wrong, bur the idea that their deeds invalidate their worth as living, sentient beings is not supported within the narrative. That's why it's unlikely for the show to have a CM aside from potentially White Diamond.

And Jasper? Jasper pretty much had no life and no personal connections - war and violence was literally all she knew, which is why she couldn't handle something deeper like fusion with other gems. Pink Diamond was pretty much the only person she ever cared about, so when Rose shattered her she was left with nothing and joined Yellow Diamond in order to "feel like less of a failure." That is valid reason to feel sorry for her, even if she wasn't redeemed or redeemable. Sure Jasper absolutely brought her fate on herself and got what she deserved, but at the same time there's reason to pity her and feel bad that her life had to even come to such a downfall. (And hypothetically I could say that I feel Amethysts' treatment of Greg when she pretended to be Rose for petty and sick reasons put her past the point of no return, so should that mean I shouldn't feel sad for her after Jasper put her down?) The way I see it, feeling bad for Jasper after her defeat despite all that she'd done isn't any different from, say, feeling bad for Princess Azula after her defeat despite all that she'd done. It's Cry for the Devil in effect.

I also have not minded how Peridot and Lapis have been written at all - I actually find them to be some of the most entertaining characters on the show as of late.

NoxiousSludge (talkcontribs)

I've got nothing against complex struggles, but it'd rather be over something that really warrants them. I still don't get why Steven or Rose should feel guilty over Pink Diamond's shattering. Maybe she cared for humanity in a selfish manner. I dunno. But at the end of the day, she was still one of the ringleaders of a quartet of Space Hitlers and her shattering was a good thing.

Quite honestly, I guess this show isn't really for me if they expect us to feel bad for the evil galactic conquerors AFTER we've seen horrifying, awful things like the Cluster and the Corruption Nuke. I personally think that, going back to an earlier point I made, if you want to make a sympathetic villain, actually make them sympathetic.Like Jasper for instance: they could have given her something, anything that resembled a redeeming or sympathetic quality. Instead of having her act like a pushy asshole towards Peridot, why not have her act somewhat standoffish, yet polite towards her and have her show concern over her welfare? Why not actually explore her feelings of self-loathing that the (hack) writers talked about in an interview instead of vaguely allude to it in a brief "Blink and you'll miss it" moment? Why not show her as angry and vengeful towards the Crystal Gems for shattering good Gems who fought by her side? I mean, you mentioned Azula, and I actually did feel bad for her. Mainly because as awful as she was, her more pitiable and sympathetic qualities were properly shown and explored quite a few times. Jasper... had nothing until they shoved in any and all sympathetic qualities into her last few seconds in order to force you to feel bad for her.

I honestly do apologize if I come off as standoffish or inflammatory, I just really hate how it feels to watch a show you really liked at first fall prey to a lot of writing pet peeves you can't stand. I don't think any less of you for liking it, I just want to vent and really put my issues with the show into words.

DocColress (talkcontribs)

Shattering Pink Diamond was a bad thing for the same reason Bismuth's plans for Home World were a bad thing - it's a horrific form of Gem murder, and Steven had always believed that Rose was far above taking lives in order to solve problems. But not only did Rose take a life, but sure enough it did not solve anything and in fact has only made things worse since all the major villains now (Jasper, Yellow Diamond, Blue Diamond, even that Mook Squad of Rubies) took Pink Diamond's death as motivation for their horrible actions in the name of vengeance for her and spite towards Rose. That's the issue Steven takes with this whole Pink Diamond thing. Taking the life of another living sentient being is bad by sheer principle unless it is in self defense or absolutely warranted, and so far nothing has convinced Steven that the situation with Pink Diamond made murder necessary.

Well if you don't like being challenged that way, sure. I personally think it's clever writing to show us horrible things done by these individuals who make up "the enemy" that make us perceive them as "evil galactic conquerors" and nothing more, but then throw a curve ball at us by showing that they're, for lack of a better term, human too and have reasons for their actions that we might not have ever considered before, all while not trying to make us think that their actions are in any way okay and they don't need to be stopped - they aren't and they do, no question. They're still the bad guys, but not everything about them is 100% bad just like far from everything about Rose Quartz was 100% good.

As for Jasper, she did have two Even Evil Has Standards moments - expressing disgust that Rose would hide herself in a human child, and calling Lapis a "monster" for being far more brutal in her violence towards her than she'd been towards her when they were inside the Malachite fusion - and everything about her character was written as a hardened, embittered warrior Gem whose life was war and nothing else, with all her talk about the battles she'd been in before and how she didn't understand the point of fusion beyond being "a cheap trick to make weak Gems stronger". In fact, once she finally experienced fusion herself, she had virtually no handle on it because it requires an actual working relationship rather than just fighting and thus her only takeaway from it was how much stronger the abusive dynamic with Lapis made her, which made her whole "take me back, Lapis!" pleading in Lost At Sea extra pitiful. She wasn't trying to manipulate Lapis - she legitimately felt that way about their Malachie fusion and was blind to what about it was so wrong and unhealthy. (Which actually does show her feelings of self-loathing since she so easily got so discouraged in her own strength that she became reliant on something or someone else to power her up). The last of her sympathetic qualities couldn't be revealed 'til the end because it'd spoil the Pink Diamond reveal, but I think Jasper was painted as a Tragic Monster successfully. If she'd been redeemed in that last episode it'd be another matter, but she wasn't - she couldn't be saved from her own self-destruction and got the Alas, Poor Villain treatment instead.

I can understand your position, but I just don't agree with it. It's pretty clear to me that a lot of what's going on in the show now was planned from the start - Steven Universe was never meant to be a show with a simplified "Heroes fighting in the name of Big Good Rose Quartz VS completely, utterly evil Big Bad Diamond Authority" conflict. The truth was always to be more complicated, and while the crimes committed by the enemy do not cease to be heinous, the enemy themselves aren't simply cartoonish evildoers - they're people with a different point of view in which Rose Quartz is their story's Big Bad and are dealing with their problems in entirely wrong ways. It's not a perfect show, but I don't think it's become a poorly written one. I honestly have more issues with the writing on the later seasons of Adventure Time than I do the later seasons of Steven Universe.