Topic on User talk:Derivative

Topic left open but deprecated for sake of continuing CM situation.

You've shown here that you were uncertain that the proposal being made by Robkelk was the right call since there were other options we could visit in order to help amend the troubles with this trope. You also said "it's sad that we aren't able to get the users who care about CM so much, to also contribute elsewhere to ATT." I do care about CM a lot, and I have zero intention of seeing it's contents nuked.

So if you could, please give a firm "Nay" vote to the proposal? There are ways we can work things out for the trope without opting to take the most extreme solution (Or as Geth put it "burning down an entire wheat field just because of a few recurrent tares in the wheat.")

When I mentioned the users who care about CM, I'm talking about all of your CM "friends" who seem to be equally as passionate as you, and who seem to be in a constant state of conflict with you on various wikis over the years. Both these IPs and registered users unfortunately don't seem to want to contribute elsewhere, which is saddening personally. Single-issue editors are a thing as rob did correctly point out, but I would have preferred that they contribute more than just edit wars with you. I also have stated before that the CM issue for reasons both in and out of your control, took up nearly all of your ATT time, which didn't help you establish and maintain relations with other users, particular certain admins, which you know who they are.

I think my responses on Example Sectionary state clearly I want my original subpage proposal implemented preferably (especially since it somehow was not after consensus was reached to do it) at least on a trial basis to see if that helps clean up some of the issues, but if consensus decides/changes to that the deletion of CM is the only cause forward; I've got bigger battles to fight.

TL;DR: Subpage or bust. I think that's your last hope, especially since Rob stated that the problems would "go away" if it was implemented, at least to my interpretation.

Also fuck 503's.

I don't really have any such "friends" on this site, though. I went it alone for a long while and now suddenly there's this idea being put fourth that the trope as it is now and has been maintained as for a while now isn't good enough, which, I won't lie, does hurt me quite a bit. I do hope I can make things right with Rob and get him to understand my position. I really want us to be united in maintaining the trope as it is now, with perfectly good and "not overly strict and objective but just strict and objective enough" criteria in place for what characters can and cannot qualify as examples, as opposed to being divided over whether or not all edits should be irrevocable and near lawlessness with a trope like this ought to be encouraged by the precedents set by the users who aren't me.

Rob held off on implementing that because he felt it would be kicking me whilst I was down and had no power to add any input on it. And personally, I still don't agree with it. There is literally nothing wrong with the set-up of the trope, it's examples, and it's subpages as it is right now - the problem is that some users are having trouble grasping that this isn't a purely subjective opinion-based trope, but a subjective trope that's nonetheless ruled by objectively defined criteria that must be adhered to when making new entries (if a character too notably fails to align with the criteria, they have no business being put down as examples.)

And no, the problems would not "go away" if that was implemented. People like that ban evader will always be trying to apply messy edits in order to have things their preferred way.

Friends was my sarcastic way of saying that CM and your previous stewardship has attracted a lot of users who engage in heavy drama with you over it, it wasn't a serious suggestion that they were genuinely your friends.

The status quo doesn't work because it got us to this point, hence why the entire moderation staff are repeating the same shit that we debated last month, only this time some want the entire problem removed like a tumour, I'm merely arguing chemotherapy.

He held off also because he had other wiki priorities to attend to first. Not just to let the dust settle, which seems to have been re-surfaced now.

The problem going away is also the current problem that you have of CM being deleted, if my subpage idea goes through CM stays, if it doesn't; it seems like it is bound to be deleted.

I don't care about how the result goes stay/delete wise, currently CM is a mess that never ends, if the subpage idea doesn't work, i'm happy for it to go; i'm only arguing that we give it one last shot in a different format, like YMMV.

I'm not a hard CM deletion advocate, but I'm not someone who cares about it staying either; I'm giving you a chance at saving it in a way that doesn't get it removed; because it's obvious that Rob and LT are not going to keep CM in the status quo. That's your choice how you deal with it.

Ah, okay. XD

No, what got us to this point was someone's flimsy grasp on how the "rules" for this trope worked and how, despite being subjective, examples are determined only if they objectively fit with the given criteria for being an example of the trope ('cause otherwise people could throw in any old villain, including ones with clear redeeming qualities or sympathetic factors), and that same person unknowingly taking the side of a serial ban evader when said ban evader made wild, personally motivated edits (which included adding and DELETING existing examples as she saw fit) and it was rightfully deemed vandalism by Mark and Geth, which got the ban evader blocked on all three of her sock accounts.

Which is why I will accept your subpage idea over flat out deletion if it does come to that, even if I don't agree with the idea either. It's the lesser of two evils in my book.

You have to understand that your creation of Examples NOT to go here etc etc and almost immediate reverting of examples you deemed wrong has been lasting years on this wiki, and I don't think it made the right impression on other admins; especially when those admins don't know who is right or wrong. Your problem with the Tales of Berseria situation and the need to use the term veto, was what set this all off initially, they don't like the concept of one admin have control over an entire trope/subpage.

I'd be willing to work that out with the other admins were they only to approach me about it. I only did those things to keep the trope from backsliding into the mess of chaos it was when it was first ported, where examples like Peter Griffin, Mr. Krabs, Eric Cartman, you name it were still seen listed as examples even when they do not match up with the criteria. Believe me, I don't WANT to have control over the entire trope. I want us to all start managing it better and recognizing that what controls which characters do and do not get listed as examples is THE CRITERIA. I cannot stress enough how it important it is to weigh things by that rather than by personal taste and opinion like your average subjective trope.

I am opposed to nuking the page and deleting all examples as well. It would only anger people who come here expecting something different from TvTropes. I just think we should have a set of rules determining how a character does (or does not) qualify as a Complete Monster, so that we know how to proceed.

Who said anything about nuking the page?

Either somebody is confused, or somebody is spreading misinformation.

Anyway.

The discussion is being held here where everybody can see it, not on a random mod's Talk page out of sight of other users.

The "nuke" talk has been going around based on your proposal. Looney Toons and Mark D. Gordon seemed to be confused on that too.

I'm not at all confused. You and other other obsessed Complete Monster wonks have turned it into something so toxic that I'd rather see the whole thing burnt to the ground than have it poison the rest of the wiki, and good riddance to it.

That's a little extreme and overly harsh, don't you think?

Not at all. It's approaching Fetish Fuel levels of toxic, in fact, and I would rather amputate the limb than have the wiki die from the gangrene.

The wiki is not going to die because one trope attracted one ban evader. Otherwise, the trope will only be toxic if we choose to make it toxic rather than compromise on how to manage it best. Which I thought we did before that ban evader's accounts getting blocked and her edits getting reversed triggered Robkelk into wanting to raze the whole garden just to get rid of some weeds.

Rob isn't wanting to raze the garden -- he wants to apply carefully distributed herbicide. Me? After getting my attention pulled unwillingly into this whole clusterfsck, I want to raze the garden -- pull Complete Monster out of the wiki stem and root, lock away anything that looks like it, and evict the autistic wonks who use it as a dick-measuring-by-proxy contest ("My villain's biggest!" "No! Mine is!"). I've not formally suggested this, but the longer this goes on, the closer I get to doing so.

And given my history with TV Tropes and All The Tropes, consider what it has to have taken to bring me to that point.

OK, you need to take some time off from this site. You are clearly very emotionally distraught, hyperbolic, and confrontational about what has gone down in regards to this trope. And talking about evicting people and using autism as an insult is absolutely out of line. Please, for your sake and all of ours, back away from this site and calm down.

Responding to LT in that way isn't going to calm him down, if anything the opposite.

If you're going to have a spat, please do it off my talk page so I don't get an email notif every time.

Sorry, LK, I lost track of the fact that this thread was on your talk page.

There's god knows how many different threads about this at this point, a decent few were started by Doc.

Also you might want to note he's talking about you on Geth's talk page.

This thread is pretty much dead now, if that helps.

I'm done attempting to reason with LT. I can only hope he takes my advice.

I'm sure some people could say the same in your direction. Swings and roundabouts.

Also if using autism as an insult was banned here, we're all fucked.

Some people want the problem to go away permanently. I guess we will have to wait until the vote either way.

You can consider this talk resolved now. We've no further use to keep it around or keep.it going.

I appreciate the gesture, but I would prefer the flow extension resolving of topics on my talk page to be left to me on principle. Just a personal space thing, nothing deeper.

Fair enough.

The thing is...we DO have that set of rules. Right here: https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Complete_Monster/Criteria

The problem we're facing now is that some users have confused how other users dealt with three user accounts that turned out to be sock accounts for a single serial ban evader who was legitimately messing up subpages by adding and removing examples to their heart's content without regard to the criteria for being unfairness in regards to edits that can or cannot be made by regular tropers.

Lily might want to introduce herself, being a very new visitor here.

I recall her from TV Tropes and other websites. Thankfully she's not that ban evader, and her input can be welcomed and trusted.

I would really prefer if she introduced herself and to the rest of the ATT staff. How do we know she is not that ban evader and she is to be trusted?

Again, I've seen her activity and even interacted with her on other websites. And yeah, we'll have to wait for her to introduce herself properly.

That's all well and good if she is even that user she is claiming to be, and not impersonating Lily.

I think an IP check would have to be done to confirm that.