Topic on Talk:Artifact Title

Article needs a different title

44
Summary by Looney Toons

Random schmuck wanders in off the street and demands we change the page name because his favorite dictionary leaves out the definition for "artifact" on which it is based. When staff and users attempt to reason with him, he resorts to insults and name-calling. He is pointed three times at the procedure for changing a page name but refuses to actually follow it, preferring vitriol in this thread to any other approach. He earns himself a couple temp-bans in the process, and does not return from the last of them.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

An "artifact" is anything that is artificial, i.e., made by people. It does not mean old or out of date. When something is out of date but needs to be kept around anyway for backward-compatibility reasons, the term most commonly used is "legacy".

HeneryVII (talkcontribs)

How about "Antiquated Title"?

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

No, it's a proper usage. Definition 1c from Merriam-Webster:

something or someone arising from or associated with an earlier time especially when regarded as no longer appropriate, relevant, or important
// … that over-simplified but eloquent quality that keeps Jefferson alive for us while Washington and Adams, his superiors in so many other respects, are artifacts of a quaint and lost world.
— Jack Rakove

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

Is that definition from before or after Webster's started drinking the descriptivist Kool-Aid?

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Kindly keep the rules for the French language out of conversations about the English language. English-language dictionaries (unlike their French counterparts) have always been descriptive, not prescriptive.

Bringing other languages' rules into English is how we got stuck with the whole "never end a sentence with a preposition" nonsense (from Latin). Let's not add another error, please.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

Actually, descriptivism in English dictionaries is a modern phenomenon, from Webster's New International Third onward. Webster's New International Second and earlier were prescriptivist, as is the American Heritage Dictionary, which was created as a rebuttal of sorts to W3.

I only learned this recently so I don't blame you for not knowing it.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

"blame"???

GethN7 has already warned you about using that sort of language here.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

It is a proper use of the word dating back decades if not longer. Leave your Small Reference Pools at the door, please.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

I just checked my physical copy of the American Heritage Dictionary, New College Edition, and it confirms I'm right and you're wrong.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

If you're so confident, do what the wiki guidelines say: Start a thread either on this discussion page or in the forums where you propose the name change, and convince a majority of the wiki users that the name change is a) appropriate and b) necessary. We don't change article titles just because someone drifts in, stamps his foot and says "do it my way!"

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

"someone drifts in, stamps his foot and says 'do it my way!'" - Not what happened, AT ALL.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

This thread is not titled "Should this article have a different title?". The "do it my way" mentality shows from the very start of the thread.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

The "do it my way" mentality exists in your imagination and nowhere else.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Of course this needs a different name - the Yanks never learned how to spell "artefact" correctly. :)

HLIAA14YOG (talkcontribs)

Please, refrain from xenophobia. Artifact can mean something ancient, generally something man-made and ancient. The title here for his trope is a pun, an way of saying the title is what remains of the initial premise that the work has lost because of some plot advancement inside the work or of the franchise itself. It's a word from latin.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Please learn to tell the difference between humour and xenophobia. The smiley at the end of the post is a big clue.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Actually, Horny, it's not a pun but a perfectly proper usage of a secondary meaning of the word, as noted in the Merriam-Webster definition I quoted above.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

@WDStudios Consider this a warning: Keep your comments constructive. Being a snippy, patronizing douche is not constructive. If you have evidence for your position, just present it, without undue sarcasm. If your argument is sound, it can stand on it's own. Otherwise, refrain from commenting if you cannot be bothered to be the slightest bit polite about it.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

I DID present evidence without sarcasm. Are you sure you tagged the right person?

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Geth called you on being snippy and patronizing, presumably in this post. He did not call you on being sarcastic. He instructed you to refrain from undue sarcasm.

While I cannot speak for the other wiki moderators (who, unlike me, used to have TVT accounts back in the day and thus have a better understanding of how you might feel about troping), I can speak for myself; your attempt to rules-lawyer out of a moderator warning (not for the first time) has cost you the remaining goodwill that I had for you.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

@WDStudios Rob is correct. That said, it's not enough to dismiss anyone as I'm right and you're wrong. That is called being arrogant and uncalled for. You could have left that off your comment and simply recommended your source for your assertion. Basically, you were asked to be polite, which, considering everyone else here is trying to be the same, is not, in our view, an unreasonable request of yourself.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

I've been far more polite than the person who called me a "snippy, patronizing douche".

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Are we here to discuss changing this page's name, or to provide examples of the Tu quoque logical fallacy? My participation or lack thereof depends upon the answer.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

It's not Tu quoque when I haven't insulted anyone.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Your attempt to redefine the term "Tu quoque" has been noted.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

GethN7 called you specifically on your insults to others.

Since you are refusing to recognize that your behaviour is causing problems even when specifically called on it, I'm out. I have work to elsewhere on this wiki.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

Wrong again. Read Geth's comments. Read mine. I never insulted anyone and Geth never "called me out" for insulting anyone. All Geth did was insult me.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

And that work is now done, eleven days later.

In this thread alone, you insulted others here and here.

EDIT: And you used another Tu quoque here. Claiming that you are not doing something in the very thread where you are doing those things is poorly-thought-out at best.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

NONE of those are insults or Tu quoques. Perhaps you should look up "insult" in the dictionary.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Perhaps you should look up "insult" in the dictionary.

A classic Ad Hominem. (Not to be confused with an Ad Hominem Attack.)

If you return from your second tempban, please address the debate, not the debaters.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

And once again, let me point you to our procedure for How to Get a Page Name Changed. You don't get a page name changed by convincing the admins, you get it changed by convincing all the other users. Oh, and by having an actual new name in mind, which you've shown no evidence of actually having, since you seem far more focused on proving you're right than anything else.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

"by having an actual new name in mind, which you've shown no evidence of actually having" - Wrong again. I provided a replacement word in my original post: Legacy.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

You cited a synonym, you did not propose a trope name.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

"Legacy Title" was the very obviously implied new name.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Quoting from the wiki policy page that you have already been referred to:

Be polite (or at least calm), even if — especially if — the discussion isn't going your way. Getting snarky or insulting because you're not finding the support you want is not going to win you points with anyone.

I suggest that you start a new thread without using an entitled tone, and the mods lock this thread on the grounds of it having devolved into name-calling in violation of core wiki policy.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

I haven't used an entitled tone. But you're right about one thing: this DID devolve into name-calling, and it did so without my help.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

If you really want to see the trope name changed, WDStudios, you should follow the guidelines in the linked policy page. Otherwise nothing is going to change because you're refusing the follow the procedures for getting the very change you want to make.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

I'm not refusing to do anything.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Names:

  • "Artifact Title" is used only on troping wikis, including this one.
  • "Legacy Title" is a collection of real-estate "title and escrow" service companies that operate in the USA. I see no reason to take a real-world name and give it a different meaning here. (Disclaimer: I'm the person who proposed we give "Power Trio" back its real-world meaning.) Also, for whatever reason, on this wiki the term "Legacy" refers to Legacy Characters. It appears to me that this name would introduce confusion into a wiki that is intended to be a reference site for writers and writing.
  • "Antiquated Title" is not used anywhere. Using this name appears to me to be change for the sake of change.

I see no reason to change the trope name at this time. While "Artifact Title" might not be perfect, it's as good as or better than any alternative presented so far.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

ATT and Tropedia inherited an inaccurate name from TVT, therefore we shouldn't fix it? "Legacy Title" has other meanings that nobody would ever know about without a search engine, therefore it can't be used as a trope page name? Those are pretty weak arguments.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Okay, @WDStudios, we've been very patient with you, but you're demonstrably well over the line into a gross violation of item one of our Terms of Service:

You promise not to be a huge jerk on our site. This includes page vandalism, link spamming, abusive behavior, illegal acts (in the United States or the Netherlands), or trying to drown out others' opinions.

(Emphasis mine.) You have been told three times how to begin the process of a trope name change -- something that you have every right to do, which the mods won't block or prevent, and which just might result in the change you insist must happen -- but instead of going and doing that, you instead choose to pursue a futile argument in this thread. (In case it's not obvious, the only way to change a trope name is to follow the trope name change process. Attempting to browbeat everyone you talk to is not making a case that the name change is needed or appropriate.)

From our point of view, it appears that you are not only "being a huge jerk on our site", you are deliberately chosing to do so instead of actually trying to get the change you want made. So, we're giving you a timeout, and maybe when you get back you will have cooled down enough to actually work with the wiki community instead of trying to impose your will upon it. Two weeks tempban.

WDStudios (talkcontribs)

Three people here are definitely engaging in abusive behavior, trying to drown out opinions, and generally being huge jerks but none of them are me.

Nice response BTW. Lying and insulting me weren't working, so you had to resort to censorship. What reason does ANYONE reading this discussion have to believe you're any different from the assholes who run TVT?

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

You come back from a tempban, and the very first thing you do is use the insult "assholes" to describe somebody on a different website.

It is obvious that you have no intent to change your behaviour.

As per All The Tropes:How We Do Bans Around Here, one-month tempban for repeating an action that previously warranted a tempban.

EDIT: Also, since we are not a government, we by dictionary definition cannot engage in censorship.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Oh, but don't forget, the only "proper" dictionary always defines words to mean what he wants them to mean, regardless of the way the rest of the English-speaking world uses them.