Trope Workshop talk:Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse

Jump to navigation Jump to search

About this board

Not editable

It's been a week...

7
Robkelk (talkcontribs)

... have we decided what we're doing with this?

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Per Umbire in the Vote thread below, "a revote in a week or two". It's a week. Revote.

Me? A conditional no. The conditional bit is that I will change it to yes if we get at least five examples where there is an in-universe repudiation of the villain's Freudian Excuse. (We currently have one-and-a-half such examples: Dead Rising is the full example, Chess is the half-example because it's dependent upon the version of the show and its staging.) Everything else currently listed is the troper's reaction to the villain's excuse. If we can't get five full examples in a week or two, then this is Too Rare to Trope.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Okay, re-voting has been open for 8 days.

Current tally: NO - 1 YES - 0.

In the last 8 days, there has been exactly one edit, to add an example that just barely qualifies, even though it doesn't have an explicit repudiation of a Freudian Excuse in it.

We're past the "week" and heading to the "two" of "a week or two", and my resolution stands -- five real examples by 10 February, or the candidate is deleted.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Changing my vote to NUKE THIS PAGE ASAP

The original description comes close to matching Complete Monster/Criteria#Freudian Excuse Standard.

Even if this wasn't a backdoor attempt to circumvent the community vote for "no examples of Complete Monster", it can be used as such.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Oh, nice catch.

On those grounds, then, I'm going to give it a couple hours for the chance for anyone to argue against, and then if those arguments aren't compelling I'll pull the trigger.

Labster (talkcontribs)

I’m still on the idea that this is not a trope. I get that it could be a reaction trope like the Shut Up Hannibal, but I’m still not seeing it. Excuses are things that by their nature are accepted or not; if the reaction is interesting it falls under the other tropes, or Complete Monster. Or it just gets a better description on Freudian Excuse.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Welp. That's three admins against, including an argument that it's an end-run around a community decision, and no votes for. Nuking but leaving the thread for others to find.

VOTE: Is this a real trope, worth continuing work on?

12
Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Labster has noted in the thread "This isn't a trope.":

Still doesn’t feel like a trope to me. It feels like a combination of two other tropes, where the combination is not particularly interesting. I’m not even sure this merits a subtype on the Freudian Excuse page.

I've felt that way from the start. So I'm putting this up for a vote -- even with the work recently put in to turn it from what TVGarbage dumped in the main space into something actually worth reading, does "Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse" really qualify as a full and separate trope meriting its own page? Please post "Yes" or "No" below. We'll tally the numbers up at some point on Monday 1/20 to give everyone time to make their opinion known.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

My vote: NO.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)
Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

My vote: YES.

I feel like it works as a deconstruction of a specific type of Freudian Excuse that's employed as a (often poor) justification for horrendous behavior if not outright atrocities. (Something something "two wrongs", etc.) Hence why, in discussing the sparseness of the description on the Trope Workshop talk page, I specified that it should refer to an in-universe description - the narrative and/or characters have to explicitly "comment" on and dismiss it, regardless of any audience reaction.

This trope would be a rebuke more in the vein of a direct counterargument/refutation, as opposed to the "Shut Up X" tropes, which strike me as being more inclusive/inclined toward general denials and, well, trying to shut them up. Heck, it need not even be verbal - a clock in the face'll get the gesture across as nicely. "Shut Up X" also aren't necessarily specific to Freudian Excuses, but apply overall to any of the numerous contexts justification for villainous action, at least in my opinion.

Lequinni (talkcontribs)

I prefer to abstain my vote until we define if we want to rework this into an Audience Reaction defined as a backslash against years of Draco in Leather Pants within fanspaces (so the examples should be actual reactions of fans towards Villainesque Freudian Excuse reveals, whenever in media or with meta posts extracted from Fanlore, not personal opinions of tropers) , or if we want it to be an in-universe trope and subset of Shut Up, X following Umbire specifications above, on the line of the memetic quote from Brooklyn 99 "Cool motive; still murder".

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

"Cool motive, still murder" is basically as close to a good four-word summary of the trope as I see it, so no complaints here. We could discuss its employment in fan circles as a response to the DiLP trope within the article too, it's not like it's mutually exclusive - sure it's technically an audience reaction in that context, but fans are part of audiences and a trend becoming more prevalent in fan works in response to another trend is valid for analysis.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Good points. Just because this might not be a trope doesn't mean it can't serve as the base of a Useful Note - and it would take some development work to turn what we have here into a decent analysis.

Lequinni (talkcontribs)

So let's do the difference.

  • Shut UP, Hannibal: The villain exposes a justification for his actions (whenever legitimate or not) but is shut down by the heroes. The focus in this trope is in that the villain is shut down on his justifications, whenever his reasons are legitimate or not.
  • Freudian Excuse Is Not Excuse: The Villain has an actual, legitimate reason for his actions, but when discussed in universe or when exposed to the heroes, the reaction is "still not a reason for doing evil acts". Adding the "discussed in universe" because IMO is not necessary a "Shut UP, X!" type of confrontation for this trope to apply; the heroes going with "yes, the villain suffered and we understand his pain, but he is still in the wrong and must be stopped ASAP" is still a version of the trope. Point that fans use the term out of universe to complain on the excessive use of cheap Freudian Excuses (on Rape is the New Dead Parents level of cheap) by creators to create "complicated" leatherpants type of villains, but that we prefer in-universe examples or, fanworks that contain the trope instead of fan reactions or troper opinions.
Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Basically what I'm shooting for, yes - the explanation regarding fandom trends and tropes can get a bullet point under the trope's Fan Works section.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Okay, final tally was one yes, one no, two abstentions before the thread veered off-topic. <sigh>

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

I was kinda hoping we would get more contributors that would steer it back on topic, but it just didn't happen. Re-vote in a week or two and continue discussion until then?

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Sure, why not?

This isn't a trope.

16
Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

It's a commentary on a villain's motivations. At most it's an Audience Reaction -- it's certainly not an element or pattern in forming a story.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

It's more of a specific form of Shut Up, Hannibal! specifically against Freudian Excuses, though I'm aware you primarily mean that the description doesn't communicate that in the slightest.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

I'll see about fleshing out the description sometime today, so it's much more clear this is about character reactions (specifically explicit rejections of the Freudian Excuse that are intended to be the core of this trope) as opposed to the (arguably intended) audience reaction that any average viewer could have (especially considering it'd basically just be a list of responses to the Freudian Excuse article otherwise).

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Thank you.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Yes, thank you.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Description's salvaged, now about those examples...

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Perhaps @TVGarbage ought to do a bit more work on his trope candidate, to show he cares at all about it...

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

I see that that troper edited other pages after I put the "will delete if not cleaned up" notice on the unsorted examples, so he or she has definitely had an opportunity to see the notice.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

So what should we do about TVGarbage leaving half-assed trope examples behind and being unwilling to clean up his own messes? Because honestly, now that people who gave a crap have actually worked on the page, it's almost usable (no thanks to him). I would rather not delete it, given how much work everyone but TVGarbage put in.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

... Although, it occurs to me that deleting it and letting someone else recreate it with the same text would take it out of Garbage Can's contribution history and give credit to someone who actually deserves it.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

It's honestly not worth that level of pettiness, not to mention categorical abuse of mod powers. I do suggest, however, that we leave the work of adding and improving examples to him for a while.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Yeah, it's petty. Sorry 'bout that. I'm just in a bad mood from other recent contributors of outstandingly poor quality and equally outstanding arrogance.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Well, I said that I'd delete the remaining crud this weekend, which should help. As for credit, he did come up with the base idea, even if the execution was ... less than stellar.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Three days later... I see the proponent made a big handful of edits to various Rugrats pages in the last 12 hours, but didn't bother to touch this page. Tossing the "examples" that don't say which works they're from.

Labster (talkcontribs)

Still doesn’t feel like a trope to me. It feels like a combination of two other tropes, where the combination is not particularly interesting. I’m not even sure this merits a subtype on the Freudian Excuse page.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Valid point. As my first message in this thread notes, I didn't think it really counted as a trope either from the start, which -- combined with how he shat it out in the main space just to put it on a work page as a trope entry -- is why I've been so hostile to it.

Maybe before we put any more work on it we just check that we actually want it. I'll start a separate thread for a vote on it, just to separate it from the commentary here.

There are no older topics