Trope Workshop talk:Gambling Game

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Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

It has hit the bare minimum of 5 and it's been a over a month since the newest example. Maybe it would be better served if we launch it and add the trope to the examples section of works pages.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

I'd like to see more of a description than just two-three sentences before I agree to launch.

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

Well, there are already 4. But perhaps that is bad grammar with some of them needing to be fused together.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

<shrug> I didn't actually count. My point is that it feels way too short.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

The description is still a stub. It's only one line long (on a 1920x1200 pixel desktop screen), hinting that there's still something that could be said about the trope. Also, there's no "compare with" and "contrast with" paragraph showing how this trope works with other tropes.

My opinion is that this is not ready for prime time, yet.

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

Some tropes there isn't much to say about. The description can easily be clearly stated in super concise terms and anything extra is just filler. This is Edible Smelling Salts all over again.

As for the compare and contrast, if there was anything close enough for compare or contrast paragraphs to be appropriate, those are missing. I believe I already looked through the gambling trope index and failed to find anything appropriate. Maybe we can assume/hope that wiki magic would solve that.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

You know, That Other Wiki is right there if you're struggling to find words to build a foundation from. It's typically what I do if I can't spin up my own descriptions wholesale, and tends to be a good resource for info regardless.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

As for the compare and contrast, if there was anything close enough for compare or contrast paragraphs to be appropriate, those are missing.

Just off the top of my head, I can think of The Bet and Side Bet as related tropes.

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

Those are just gambling tropes. Considering we have a gambling index (which for some reason is also the games of chance index), I don't think those are close enough. That said, I will add Side Bet to the gambling index right now.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

"Those are just gambling tropes."

As in, they are thus related to gambling games.

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

The point of the index is to gather gambling tropes together. We don't need to have all gambling tropes on every trope page about gambling. I think the index tag at the bottom is enough. I think see alsos, compares, and contrasts should be reserved for things that either have a closer relationship or lack a shared index.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

...do you not think tropes about gambling would share a close relationship with games built around gambling?

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

I've already stated my opinion: things that share an index should have a stronger relationship requirement to get a see also/compare/contrast than things that don't share an index.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

This also sounds arbitrary to the point of inanity.

If a clear relationship can be observed between two tropes, a trope and a type of work, etc., then it should be noted as such, and this should not require any prescriptivism to some set of indexes - after all, it is those observations that serve as the basis for the indexes, and not the other way around, as that would make no sense.

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

Had computer or website issues so I posted the same comment twice 😩

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Already incorporated the former in the description.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

I wasn't aware this was a trope candidate - can probably work a lot of magic, I got time today.

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

"These Gambling Games date back to the Paleolithic period, before written history; the earliest six-sided dice date to about 3000 BC in Mesopotamia" I don't see how we can know this. Monopoly uses dice and that game lacks any intrinsic gambling of property that is customarily for keep. How do we know that the dice were used for gambling!?

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

Also even if the paleolithic dice were used for gambling, how do we know that gambling was intrinsically required to play these games (like poker) instead of just being customary (like black jack)?

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)
Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Furthermore, any of these games can be played without actual gambling involved, which makes the distinction of "must require gambling" sound completely inane and arbitrary - how else does one describe poker meeting the criteria where blackjack somehow doesn't?

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

I can see a distinction there. Blackjack can be played without wagering anything; at its root, it's a contest of who knows probability math well enough to come closest to a score of 21 without going over. Poker, on the other hand, has an element of psychology (the bluff or lack thereof) in addition to the probability math needed to get a decent hand, and it's that psychology that leads to the gambling - even if all that's being risked is one's reputation as a good player. Stud and hold'em versions of poker don't even have the probability math - they're all luck and bluffing.

Nothing in the trope description as it read when I posted this requires the gambling stakes to be tangible.

EDIT: Unless I'm off-base with that quick analysis, that might be worth adding to the trope description.

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

the important thing about poker for this trope is how you put up money in the game and you continue to put in money until you win (match/call... or raise), give up and cut your losses (fold), or lose. In order to play poker without gambling you have to either cut out a huge part of the game or do something like temporarily give everyone monopoly money for the night that they don't get to take home.

I don't think the fact psychology, math, or luck are parts of poker matters for qualifying.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

...they all have direct relations to the gambling aspect, what are you talking about?

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

What I'm saying is there might be gambling games that don't have psychology, math, and luck. I could have misinterpreted what Robkelk was saying.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

There might be, but I can't think of any examples. Can you?

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

If we are keeping all the current examples (and I'm not saying we should), Russian Roulette is all luck.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Hm, that's a much better explanation, thank you - probably worth adding to the description.

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