Trope Workshop talk:Power Systems

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I'm not convinced this isn't People Sit on Chairs.

25
Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

As far as I'm concerned, it seems to boil down to "A setting has a special term for super powers that means 'super powers'". While yes, it's undeniably true, how does it matter? How does a different choice of terminology impact a story? Would My Hero Academia have a different plot if it used "metatalents" instead of "quirks"? If the answer is "no", then what we have is a bit of trivia about vocabulary, not a trope that affects the setting or story. And I think the answer is pretty clearly "no".

Nominating for deletion as Not a Trope.

Pinging the Usual Suspects: @Agiletek @GentlemensDame883 @Goo Monster @HeneryVII @HornyLikeIAmA14YearOldGirl @Lequinni‎ @RivetVermin @Umbire the Phantom @Utini501 @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak

Kuma (talkcontribs)
Kuma (talkcontribs)

Sorry, I meant to write: 'but to counter what Looney Toons has stated, I left this link to a document containing it because it would be too large to post:'

HeneryVII (talkcontribs)
Kuma (talkcontribs)

Okay,@HeneryVII I am curious how in anyway is it Too Rare to Trope when there are lots of examples on the page.

HeneryVII (talkcontribs)

Mmm, maybe it's salvageable, but it seems more like a labeling.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Sorry, I meant to write: 'but to counter what Looney Toons has stated, I left this link to a document containing it because it would be too large to post:' I can't post due to how it saying 'timeout' for some reason.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

I'm going to play devil advocate for Kuma because I read through the examples and noted something interesting.

The title of the superpower does fit the People Sit On Chairs criteria on its own, but the examples often note how the name is indicative of specific limits of the powers, though some have non-indicative names. The trope could possibly be reworked to highlight these distinctions in naming the powers in question and if the name has special meaning as a plot element.

RivetVermin (talkcontribs)

I second GethN7, along similar lines. A number of these powers all come from the same force, or have some close connection to one another, which can affect, as Geth mentioned, their limits (Deadman Wonderland having all powers requiring the users own blood as a cost being an obvious one), but also affects how those with and without powers would react to one another (see how X-men "mutants" are treated differently than standard superheroes). It would require a retooling of the description and some pruning of examples, but I think it IS a trope.

GentlemensDame883 (talkcontribs)

I don't get the impression of this being a trope so much as a piece of terminology that gets a mention in the work description

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Thanks to GethN7 and RivetVermin, I wonder if I have been concentrating on the wrong parts of the trope. First, I would want to change the title to Power Systems. The next is where it should be about the Power Systems and what roles they play in the settings. The next is how when it comes to why the Power Systems are unique to every character. The common examples at least I have picked up on is how unique they come from personality, genetics, or luck is the cause. The other trait is how most of them have their rules, limits, restrictions, etc., which makes them more distinct. An interesting example from Jojo's is how Stands can affect other Stands. People with Stands attract each other where conflict will always arise. Another factor is how they affect the story. If it's a commonplace, a secret a few know about the power, or they act as a catalyst that has or can change the world forever. I can say that Power Systems from popular media has their own wiki pages on Fandoms. They are extensive enough that they could go beyond trivia and show world-building for the setting, along with how they affect the characters. I guess I shouldn't focus on the name part that much, but it is interesting to think about RivetVermin's statement. What other ways can expand it more away from People Sit On Chairs? On a side note, what are People Sit On Chairs, anyway?

RivetVermin (talkcontribs)

Okay, if the plan is to shift the focus of this trope, we'll probably have to come up with a new name, then rewrite the description. Do you want to make a first stab at it, or should one of us have a go?

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Sorry for not replying sooner, I would like to suggest Power Systems if that sounds good.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

@Example People Sit On Chairs is a trope for something so common it's absurd to trope it. All humans breathe air to live, so a trope about humans breathing oxygen would be a rejected trope since that is so common troping it is absurd.


I do like your idea for reworking the trope, it would take it away from the issues mentioned.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Alright, thanks for telling me about People Sit on Chairs, I am not familiar with tropes like that. I would also like to know what idea do you have for reworking it?

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

If the whole focus of the trope was on the sources of powers, and the commonalities between the powers granted, then initially casting this as about the naming was just about the most unintuitive approach possible. You had me convinced until the last three messages that this entirely about naming conventions and nothing more.

I'm looking forward to the rewrite. And knowing what this is really supposed to be about, I have more examples to contribute when it's ready.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Well, I would like to post about a possible rewrite. The rewrite can be about superpowers that are unique to every character. One factor about their uniqueness would come from different factors such as personality, genetics, or just plain luck. It can also describe other traits about them, like if they have rules, limitations, advantages, etc., which influence how they are used by characters and even the setting. There is also how they may impact the setting where they are a well-kept secret in The Masquerade. Another example is a society where they are incorporated into everyday life to the point that they can use in employment. Next want to talk about sources of superpowers that varies in media. I would say that these sources may be a trait connected to these superpowers. While they are crucial, I would say that they should be a part of the trope rather than a focus. I am willing to discuss perspectives on why the focus could be on about source of powers if anyone wants to. Also, is there a trope or category for the source of superpowers called Power Source?

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Also, is there a trope or category for the source of superpowers called Power Source?

Yes, as you could tell almost instantly two different ways -- first, from the fact that your link there wasn't a redlink, or by using the search prompt on every page to search for it.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Okay, so you agree that the trope should focus on unique powers rather than the sources of powers but making it a part of the trope since there is already a trope for sources of superpowers?

RivetVermin (talkcontribs)

I've been trying to come up with a snappy name for this, and am coming up blank. Best one I have is "Shared Rules of Power" which I guess gets the point across and is reasonably short, but I feel it can be bettered.

Seeing as it deals with many heroes having similarly obtained abilities, Mass Super-Empowering Event would be a good page to compare and contrast (although of course, many examples don't have the singular "event")

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Alright, I suggested Power Systems earlier so how about Unique Systematic Powers or Special Systematic Powers? I'd also like to suggest Power Grids, Power Structures, and Superpower Singularities.

RivetVermin (talkcontribs)

Okay, I've rewritten the description in line with what we've been discussing, though I'm sure there's room for improvement. If we're going to go ahead with this interpretation, some examples may need pruning, which we can do once the description is agreed?

Kuma (talkcontribs)

I guess it's alright; it's just a bit different from how I would describe the trope, but it works. Looney Toons also made his own changes, which works as well. I am curious about what examples would need to be pruned and why?

GentlemensDame883 (talkcontribs)

In what ways is it different from what you had in mind? It would help us all if you could please elaborate.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Well, I made the trope focusing on superpowers that are usually unique to individuals and the common traits that they share such as their limitations, being categorized, and other characteristics that they may share. The description is nice but I was thinking of having a bit more about the powers in the description.

Confused about Ruby's Petal Burst

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Kuma (talkcontribs)

I am confused about how Ruby's Petal Burst is teleportation, as referenced by Looney Toons. I remember Penny's exposition from 'Strings' where she can disassemble herself and others in a close range on a molecular level and then accelerate these molecules. Simply put, she can turn herself and others into petals that she can move at high speed while manipulating their shape. Teleportations involve the transfer of matter from one location to another without physically occupying the space in between to traverse the physical space. Petal Burst needs a clear path, or Ruby will crash into an obstacle. Am I missing something?

Robkelk (talkcontribs)
Kuma (talkcontribs)

I guess that fits; its just that whenever I think of teleportation, I think more along the lines of poofing one place to another instantly.

I think the Naruto example does not apply

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HornyLikeIAmA14YearOldGirl (talkcontribs)

I think the Naruto example does not apply, not as it is written. Ninjutsu, Tai and Nen are ways of using chakra. Chakra itself is the power which all the ninjas have. Kekkei genkais fit the definition since those are special abilities only certain people can use, unlike most other jutsus which anybody can in theory learn, limitations aside.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Okay, I say that Jutsus still fits because of how they work and how ninjas use them. Ninjas can use any Jutsu from the main types and subcategories, but they often specialize. There is also the factor of chakra affinity to one of the basic elements. Ninjas have an easier time learning to use ninjutsu of their affinity compared to others, but it is possible to train more than one. There are also cases where ninjas may not be able to use other forms of Jutsu like Rock Lee. Interestingly, most Kekkei Genkais use chakra, where two or three elements are combined to make new elemental nature with its unique effects. This power system can also be compared to others, such as Nen, which anyone can use, but different factors cause the user to use it in unique ways. Another is PSI from Psyren where Psychiers all have access to telepathy(Trance), superhuman physicality(Rise), and a special ability(Burst). Burst is a special power personal to Psychiers, but they can use other psychic powers. Haki from One Piece can be used by everyone, but certain people born with one type of Haki can use all three. There is also how people have an affinity with one of the types. Jutsu fits the trope from what I can tell, along with other similar examples to Naruto's. If there is something that I missed, then I am willing to read it.

Is this Trope Workshop page launchable?

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Kuma (talkcontribs)

Okay, writing this post took a lot for me to do, and I am asking if this trope is ready to be launched or not. If there are no problems, I would love to hear from anyone, and you can reply when you can. Also, if there are any problems with the page, I ask for a response that can specify the issues if you can identify them for discussion if possible. Thank you for reading this message, and have a nice day.@Labster@Looney Toons@Robkelk@Robkelk@QuestionableSanity@Derivative@SelfCloak

I've been thinking about this...

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Looney Toons (talkcontribs)
TBeholder (talkcontribs)
Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Perhaps the description could be tightened up a bit?

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Well, I originally just wanted it to focus on superpowers that can be identified but then other people put in example that does resemble it but it does give a term for the power. If whatever examples that does detail powers that goes by a common term then I it would help to remove them. There are setting where powers are help without given the people a term to described these powered individuals such as Quirks, Stands, and Nen. There are example that do have powers that goes by terms while also making them Differently-Powered Individuals such as Abnormalities for Abnormals, Branch of Sin for Deadmen, Gates for Gate Keepers, PSI for Psychiers, and Graces for Graclings. The difference between how these examples that do involve Differently Powered Individuals have a term for their powers while also giving one for a person that could have such a power. The point of it is how the tropes focuses on the superpower and yes it crosses with it but only when there is a term to identify the superpower. If it helps I could get rid of the examples that may not fit well such as the one from Darker than Black. Would that help?

Is the description clear enough?

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Kuma (talkcontribs)

I am curious if the description on the page is clear enough due to how Robklek mentioned it was confusing. From what I can read it seems to state it clearly. I feel like I am missing something and if that's true I need to make sure to have anything confusion notified so that it can be resolved. So can anyone help me with this?

TBeholder (talkcontribs)

Not well structured. It goes generally in the right direction, but somewhat meandering.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Okay, so then what would you say is need for it to be more focused. Does it need more details in the description about the trope?

Are Thee Houses crests really an example?

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2dgirlfan (talkcontribs)

The crests pass through bloodline and everyone who inherited them at the same potency uses them the same way. For most of the cast they're the only one shown to have them on screen, but aren't in the wider world according to the lore as I understand it.

TBeholder (talkcontribs)

As in, not restricted to one specific individual, but restricted to a bloodline?

Hmm. Doesn't look like we have it already defined. And it's a Missing Supertrope to a few things. Maybe have it included with an explicit mention, then split?

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

What house crests are we talking about here? Arthur, Lancelot, Galahad, Mordred, Gawain, and the others around the Round Table? Gryffindor, Slytherin, Huffelpuff, and Ravenclaw? Something else entirely?

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Robkelk, they are talking about Fire Emblem Three Houses. Well the crests do follow into a bloodline but the people descend in the family who inherit them do use them. Each person could be born with a Major or Minor Crest while also each Crest gives their own powers. So each person within a certain family could carry a Crest which would mean a specific people from specific families would use it. An example would be how would be how Edlegard has a Minor Crest of Seiros which give her more Might when using a combat art. Claude has the crest of Riegan which restores 30% of HP when using combat arts. Dimitri inherited the Crest of Blaiddyd which doubles Attack and weapons use when using combat arts. There is also how according to the lore of the game that Crests are said to be power incarnate which means that if we think as some sort powers then they can increase physical strength, regenerative abilities, and defense against attacks.So each Crest depending on the family can give a person a certain divine ability.

TBeholder (talkcontribs)

Ah, so the bloodline itself only allows to use it. This seems close to Sword in The Stone. Perhaps it needs its own page… if you can figure out how to name it. I remember a few Forgotten Realms examples of magic items tied to specific bloodlines, one even used by an unlikely heir to prove royal descent. And wasn't that sort of thing used in Stargate? That's 3 entries already.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Well they are inherited within a bloodline but not everyone within it has a crest. Those who inherited a crest are given prestige within the society and some sort of power compared to other people within the setting. There is also how there is also different crest with different powers.

Expanding the trope

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128.163.237.10 (talkcontribs)

TBeholder had added an interesting example to the page which makes me wonder if it could cover more. I have noticed the trope that I am trying to implement with has been used in Anime and Manga which has taken the blunt of the page. The concept of people with unique powers can be found in such media but sometimes they do not give them details or seems to follow the Differently Powered individuals. The example with Darker Than Black's Contractor but the power are not given a term by the character. This doesn't mean that the trope is exclusive from Differently Powered individuals, there are examples such as Abnormals with Abnormalities and Needless with Fragments. If it does seem to break the example with the Darker than Black example but then could it work if the description is changed in some way? I have noticed other examples such A Certain Magical Index and Tiger and Bunny. The one the resembles the trope I would say is A Certain Magical Index as the Espers in the series have their own special abilities and they even name their powers. There is also another example from Phantom Brave where there are people in the world with a power but they don't seem to have term for them. Examples from the game is Chartreuse Gale that can confine Phantoms to a physical form,Psycho Burgundy which is some form of fire or energy attack, Dark Eboreus that can take life force to gain more power, and then there are others like Cobalt Blues, Viridian Copper,and Heliotrope Blade.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

I'm still not sure what this trope is supposed to be - the description is worded so oddly that everything you've mentioned might already qualify, or it might not.

This is still in the Trope Workshop, so go ahead and add them in. The worst that can happen is that you get outvoted.

Oh, and since this sort of thing is popping up, could somebody re-write the description to be clearer, please?

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

By my reading of the trope definition as it currently stands, I'd say all of those already qualify.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Well I will try to make it simple but I am having trouble conveying it in a description. I have notice in most anime and manga where there are characters that have some unique power but they are grouped together in someway and form that ironically make them common. It seems to be in the different forms, such as magic, psychic powers, supernatural martial arts, or some form of unique power to the setting. They often do this in the Shonen demographic and I thought it could be a trope. One the mirror it had a different title called Differently Individualistic Powers and I named it that to compare it to Differently Powered Individual except with powers. The different between the two is how instead of having to called the superpower character a certain name like Mutant, Metahuman, Next, Bang babies, or Esper but with powers like with Quirks, Stands, and Nen. There is however Differetnly Power Individuals who may have powers that goes by a term like Abnormal have Abnormalities, Needless have Fragments, and Psychicers has PSI. Not only do they have powers in each setting but their sources are different. Nen for example is a supernatural martial art that uses one aura to different applications especially when it comes to Hatsu. PSI is psychic powers that comes into three categories and can be used by Psychicers in different ways depending on their affinity and skill in Trance, Rise, and Burst. Quirks are superpowers people are biologically born with and gain when they are born or as they grow up along with usually inherited from both their parents. I couldn't use it as Looneytunes said that it was copying the trope and how I tried to implement it but was logged on to discuss what I was going for until now with this one. For me, I don't know where to begin writing a simpler description or one that is more understandable but I can try. I wouldn't mind some help with the description if there is a confusion with it.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

I was thinking that the trope's name may need some work. I have though about 'Labeled Powers', 'Grouped Powers', 'Organized Powers', or 'Unique Powers'. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

I dunno, my brain just crashed and I'm just going by description (Bare in mind I haven't given it much thought), so I am thinking that it should be called something other than "Quirk" or "Nen", if the trope needs a name change.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

That's okay, I was just curious if the current name fits the description like most other tropes.

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

My crashed brain was all "Let's make this into a 'Trope Namer'", instead of being practical.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

I guess but the current title seems to works from what I can tell. Do you agree?

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Agree.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Thank you

Can anyone think any other examples

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Kuma (talkcontribs)

Can anyone help with adding example or help with the summary of the tropes?

RabidTanker (talkcontribs)

X-Men has a certain gene that turns people into mutants. I think it's the "X-Gene" or something.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

I am a bit iffy on that since the X-Gene is what makes them mutant. Mutations might what the trope describes but have people consider mutations are the term for a mutant's superpowers?

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