User talk:Jlaw

... please make sure you get the name right. The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes was not written by "Susan Collins", it was written by "Suzanne Collins". Your mistake lead to the creation of a category for Susan Collins, which I've fixed.

Ooops, thank you for letting me know and for fixing the mistake. I will be more careful in the future.

After an off-the-wiki discussion, the admins have decided to grant you autopatrolled and automoderated status. As one of us said, "Good faith editor, willing to learn and act maturely, good contributions, what's not to like?"

This means your edits will no longer be subject to admin oversight and will be applied directly to the wiki as soon as you make them. I'll also take a moment to note that this is the fastest we've ever approved a new troper for automoderated status since we started using Moderation. Usually it's a process of months.

Congratulations. TV Tropes' loss is our gain.

-- Looney Toons, admin

cc: @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak

Congratulations from me, as well. It's a privilege that you've well-earned.

Keep up the good work, and you might even beat my record of fastest time to be offered a moderator position... 😀

As the one who made the comment LT cited, you've proven a fine editor and worked hard to conform to the rules while acting in better faith than we expected since day one. Congratulations, we hope you stick around and provide more of your fine contributions.

Aww, thank you all so much! I appreciate that you gave me a second chance when I goofed with my first page a few times in a row.

I will definitely do my best to contribute meaningful pages, and entries. It is my pleasure to assist where I can.

However, your proposed new page, Tuca And Bertie, has been rejected for the following reasons:

• The page name is in the wrong form: The show's name is Tuca & Bertie (with an ampersand, not "and").
• There is no description of the program; the entire page is just a list of tropes.
• Other than bullet points and links, the page is missing every last bit of markup it needs, as well as any categories that apply to it.

This last is the primary reason it was rejected. As you may have noticed, pages here on All The Tropes have a common and consistent style, which we implement with page templates that incorporate all the basic markup needed to make them look good and integrate with the rest of the wiki. Your proposed page was lacking pretty much all of this.

We strongly suggest that you re-create your new work page -- with a proper description! -- by using the ATT Page Creator, which you can reach either through the link I just inserted there, or as the very first item under "Troping Utilities" on the menu that lives on the left edge of every page. Go to the last input box, enter "Tuca & Bertie" there, and click the blue button that will light up. This will put you in an editor already populated with the skeleton of a work page containing all the basic markup needed, along with some helpful instructions to help you with stuff that may be confusing or unobvious. Insert your content into the page skeleton where indicated, and follow any instructions that you find useful.

We strongly recommend you read these help pages before you get started:

• New User Introduction
• So You're a TV Tropes Refugee
• Style Guide

Finally we also recommend that you read How We Do Bans Around Here. This isn't a threat -- this is the wiki policy strictly controlling how and when user bans can be applied by an Admin. We want you to be aware that unlike TVT, we do not ban users on whims or because we're cranky -- and that you know what we do ban people for, and what it takes, so you can avoid future problems.

Once again, thank you for registering and contributing to the wiki! We look forward to enjoying what you have to share with us!

-- Looney Toons, admin

@Jlaw @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak

Hello, Thank you so much! I appreciate getting the feedback because I'm new here; former TV Tropes user. Was struggling to format the page, and was unsure where to go to create the page exactly. I was trolling the site but the user guide that appears when you edit was broken so I was experimenting. Hoping to receive more feedback in the future. Thank you again! Best, Priya

I'm sorry, but we had to reject your new proposal again. It was still lacking all the mandatory markup required to integrate the page into the wiki -- the reason I noted above was the primary reason it was rejected the first time. And really, it was almost the easiest thing to correct, as I gave you step-by-step instructions, even.

Please use the page creator and build your page around the work page template it provides. Until you do that, your page will not pass moderation.

-- Looney Toons, admin

Thanks so much for being patient with me. Is there a way to use the Sandbox to create a tentative draft until I get it right? I don't mind that I was rejected, but I definitely want to figure out how to get it right so as to make less work for you and the other moderators. Trying to figure out what I did wrong: I did go to ATT Page Creator, and looked at the options. Was it that I entered in the first page and not the last? Or was I overthinking? Because I was looking at boilerplate templates and trying to enter things in correctly. Best, Priya

If you look closely, the four prompts identify themselves. The first is a generic "make a page" which opens an editor with a combobox allowing you to pick a page type boilerplate -- it's mainly for use creating subpages if you don't want to use the "Create New" button on an existing page. You can create a works page here -- you just select "Works Page" from the dropdown and click the "load" button, and that will populate the editor with the page skeleton.

However it's a bit less trouble to just use the fourth prompt:

which will do the same thing with less effort on your part. (We should probably reorganize that page to put works and tropes at the top rather than the bottom.)

If you want to create the page in your sandbox first, no problem. The first time you open the empty page, you should have the "Select boilerplate" option at the top. Again, pick "Works Page" from the combobox and click "Load".

You can read about how this is supposed to work here. If for some reason you're not given the prompt to choose a boilerplate, you can use the link to the works page boilerplate found at the bottom of that page to open it up directly -- then you can copy its source into your new page (although it's got some specialized markup at the bottom that will need to be changed/deleted if you do).

I hope this helps.

I think that's what I did wrong. What happened was I clicked Make A Page and was confused when no template showed up, so I tried to copy-paste one in and manually add it. That explains why I was struggling for a few hours, and I feel silly that the answer was right in front of me. Hoping to relearn how to use code and avoid this from happening in the uture. Right now I have loaded the correct template, for Works, and added a summary with the title italicized and bolded for the description, but obviously I don't want to make more work for you. Should I stand by and put it in the Sandbox, or save it and hope I understood it this time?

Well, I see you went ahead and put it in your sandbox. Since the Moderation system doesn't distinguish between the Main namespace and user sandboxes, I had to approve your sandbox entry, which I've just done. The quick glimpse I took at the page in the process looks promising, but I can tell you right off the bat that you can delete the part in Courier telling you to describe the page -- that's just a placeholder.

Oh, and here's a page that might help you with fleshing it out: Works Page Guidelines. You don't need to do every single thing on that page, but it could give you ideas of things to add, as well as things you should do that you haven't.

Remember that Works Pages Are a Free Launch and whenever you're satisfied with it you can just put it in the Main namespace. That's done with the "Move" function, which you can find in the "More" dropdown menu at the top of the page, next to the search box. When you select that, you'll see a page with a two-part prompt:

I'm repurposing some screen shots I took for someone else some months ago here. Where this says "Trope Workshop", you'll see "User", and the box next to it will read "Jlaw/sandbox". Open the dropdown and change "User" to "(Main)":

And put the proper name for the page -- "Tuca & Bertie" -- where it says "Jlaw/sandbox". Make sure "leave a redirect behind" is unchecked, and put a note in the edit reason along the lines of "releasing new work page". Then hit "move page" and you're golden.

if you don't see a "Move" option on the "More" menu, your current level of permissions might not allow you to move pages. In that case just drop me or another mod a note and we'll move it for you.

Have fun!

EDIT: Oh, and while it's perfectly feasible, don't resort to the TVT method of page moving -- copying the contents of one page to another. The Move function preserves the entire page history across name changes -- something that's kind of necessary for the legalities of our licensing.

Ahh thank you so much! I deleted those descriptions: kept them in initially to confirm that I had gotten the right template. Not adding an image for the moment since the ones that are licensable would require some resizing per the guidelines. Going to add a spoiler warning and some tags since I see what the proper tag is. Totally reviewing the checklist and making sure I minimize future mistakes. For Sandboz, would you prefer if in general I waited or marked the page as being in-progress? I want to make sure that I'm following the rules. Best, Priya

Also I am trying to find the "Move" option in the Sandbox but the only one coming up is "Purge". Should I just leave it?

Yeah, looks like you don't have that permission -- which makes sense; the initial privileges new contributors get are somewhat limited because we've had problems with vandals and spammers. if you think it's ready for primetime now, I can move it for you.

Honestly, as long as you hit the high points, you're fine. If you leave the {{workstub}} template on it, you don't need to mark it as "in progress" or anything like that.

And honestly, although this whole thing has been kind of involved and our help pages are long and detailed, we're not martinets. If you're making a good-faith effort, hew reasonably close to the style guide and content guidelines, and generally are playing nice with everyone, you're okay. It's just that we get so many Drive-By Updaters who don't give a damn we're a little strict with anyone who throws a malformed page at us as their first try. 95 times out of 100 they're copyright violations stolen from TV Tropes and/or the contributor can't be bothered to do anything more than drop his mess into the moderation queue and walk away.

And then there are the ones who get arrogant and obnoxious about it... <sigh> As you might guess, we get a little frustrated with them.

You can't imagine how much of a delight it is to have someone who wants to get things right and is willing to take the advice and instruction we're always happy to provide.

Okay, I'll re I've got both edits on the page for attempt three not saved, but if moving the Sandbox is easier, I'm game. I have a habit of backing up my tropes entries because they help with word counts. Didn't even know there was a term for that! Going to remember that. I can cite which of the pages I created on TV Tropes, mainly YA and MG novel entries, though I blocked the site on my laptop for the reasons stated below. Well yes, of course I want to learn. For a long time, about five years at least I was contributing to TV Tropes. Since Turning Red and Encanto came out, however, the atmosphere has changed over the past few months. They deleted Adult Fear, my favorite trope, and claimed they had discussed it in the fall but I didn't see anything about the discussion threads until this spring. I don't think most users know how to talk about generational trauma, and I was getting into more arguments as a result. (Woman of color here, generational trauma from Indian-Asian mom, being the black sheep, the whole shebang.) Last Wednesday I got suspended and I suspect it's that I added back an entry pointing out how Luisa's song represents realistic fears but it could have also been "not adding character traits character pages" on Bridgerton, while the line blurry about if say Reasonable Authority Figure or Soapboz Sadie is a story trope. While I could apologize, I realized I wasn't sorry and it would be a lie, especially since I don't know what specifically I did wrong. Moderators on there dismissed my citations that Ming was emotionally abusive in Turning Red, and it feels like a space that I could no longer call home. It's why I'm exploring other sites and even considering starting a small doc for the writingwithcolor Tumblr, to deal with that saddening realization because I love tropes and tropespeak. Experience has taught me to do what I can to respect Internet spaces, both the ones I join or maintain. It's why I want to follow the rules. Coding isn't my strong suit, which is why I think I've been struggling, but I will strive to keep improving. Best, Priya

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with TVT, but not at all surprised. At the time I left TVT in 2012, I was the single oldest contributor outside of the admin staff -- I joined the wiki just a couple months after they were founded, created their anime coverage singlehandedly, wrote some 600 pages, helped set policies, was even described at one point as an "elder statesman" among tropers -- and was dismissed as a "troublemaker" by johnny-come-latelies like Fighteer for talking about TVT's original values. All TVT does now is protect its precious revenue stream, any way it can. And if that means getting rid of anything or anyone who might upset J. Random Visitor to the site, so be it.

Trust me, in you're in the best of company. <grin>

Anyway, you'll find the coding will get easier. It's about 50% the same as TVT, the rest is surprisingly easy to get a handle on. There's a good cheat sheet here that covers most of the most common stuff. We also have a lot of custom-coded templates to make things easier on everyone.

And finally, I'll move your page right now, since it wounds like you want it.

And done. I've also created its category, and created a YMMV page for it with material I saw on Heartbreaking in Hindsight.

Wow, you are a badass! I'm so sorry they dismissed you. That sounds really unfair and unjust. I created an archnemesis list of anal-retentive moderators that keep deleting my stuff. Mainly I'd just remember not to trust them, especially if they were rude in comments.

I definitely will keep practicing with the coding. It is also helping me remember what I learned for HTML, and how to adapt that. Watching season 2 of Tuca & Bertie and totally want to go deep into that.

There are so many pages I want to recreate, without plagiarizing, and add new ones. Squid Game, The Owl House, and Cat Burglar are some examples; I want to create a better page for it than what TV Tropes has, albeit while acknowledging it would need the roots first. The same goes for a new David Levithan MG novel about censorship that I'm debating how triggering it will be, and any new Junji Ito manga that comes out since the man is a genius. For now, though, will only focus on Tuca & Bertie and adding heartwarming moments to works pages.

I think for now it's best I give you a heads up about what I want to create before putting it in the Sandbox until I get the hang of the coding, unless you think otherwise? Mainly I don't want to cause trouble or extra work.

Best,

Priya

We already have a page for The Owl House, but nothing says you can't have at it and revise it to your liking.

And you don't have to warn us about your sandbox -- or honestly, anything else. As long as you follow the Content Guidelines and the Terms of Service you're going to be safe. (And when you see how short those pages are, you'll know how easy that is. Hell, the Policy for Wiki Staff is about twice as long as the Terms of Service -- we apply more and stricter rules to the moderators and admins than we do to the users.)

Oh, and they didn't dismiss me -- I walked voluntarily once they started embracing censorship after the Second Google Incident. They did do their best to make me an unperson afterward -- my troper page, which I had rewritten to express my reasons for leaving, was blanked and locked, the page for my fanfic Drunkard's Walk was locked, and my account was banned -- but I was so prolific and influential in the early years that short of vaporizing literally thousands of pages they could not completely erase me from the wiki.

If you're curious, we maintain a "History" page that lays a lot of TVT and ATT's mileposts out on a timeline, including my departure.

Noted about The Owl House, my apologies. I definitely will add some edits since typing up notes for recaps and analyses that I post to Medium.

Okay; I'll be sure to read the Content Guidelines and terms of service. I've been editing a few pages here and there, and leaving notes on the edits to clarify what they are.

I've been reading through the history. This all sounds very unfair. I don't know why they have to be so petty, the mods that remained. We're all here in a community to work together and create a reliable database for fandom tropes.

Best,

Priya

Hi LT,

I hope this isn't too presumptuous so feel free to tell me if it is. Generally, after a new user edits a page, how much time does it take for entries on different work or trope pages to get approved? Is a week normal?

Since there isn't a BoJack Horseman page, I was considering starting there with a new page, to go with T&B. Unsure if I should wait until my other edits are approved since as mentioned, I want to make sure not to create too much work for the mods.

Best,

Priya

We try to have a 24 to 48-hour turnaround on the moderation queue, with all the admins theoretically checking it on a regular basis. I personally have been busy with family matters since midday Friday and this is my first time on the wiki since then -- and this will be brief, as my wife and I are in the middle of cooking Easter dinner for my inlaws. If you have stuff in the queue that's been waiting longer than that, I'll see what I can do in the time I have and kick the other moderators in case someone is less busy than I.

Ah thanks so much and my apologies for interrupting Easter dinner prep. (My family doesn't celebrate but I have friends who do.) There is no rush, I was just curious. Totally willing to wait for much longer <3.

Have a good Easter dinner!

Best,

Priya

Oh, we did, thank you, although it got served about an hour later than we'd planned, thanks to a last-minute addition to the menu. (Oh, and you didn't interrupt it -- I had 15 minutes between cooking tasks and decided to see if there was anything that needed my attention here while getting off my feet at the same time.)

Rob let me know that he went through at least some of your edits yesterday; I'll try to get to more today at some point.

You can go ahead and create your new page -- there's no requirement in any way that you have to wait until your backlogged edits have passed through moderation (sorry for missing that query yesterday). I know that your experience with TV Tropes has left its scars, but we're not TVT. There's nothing you can do here in good faith that is going to get you banned or even minorly in trouble. For nearly a decade and a half TVT has been a commercial concern earning money for its owners, and protecting that revenue stream drives everything the mod staff does -- well, that and personal power trips. We have no profit motive and no revenue stream to protect, and we don't do the power trip thing here -- that's why the Policy for Wiki Staff so strictly limits what we're allowed to do. We're about the tropes, the works that use them, how writers use them to create stories, and the insights our users can give on any of those topics. Unless you're a spammer or vandal you're never going to get banned or otherwise punished for content creation. Please, don't be so afraid of us.

Please be aware that you can go to anyone on the mod staff -- we're all friendly and we don't bite. Don't feel like because you've been dealing exclusively with me for the last week, that means I'm the only one you can ever deal with. We're all online at different times, so you may get faster responses if you post a generic query to everyone and add the "admins" template to your message to automatically ping them. Just add this to the end of your message: {{admins}}. It does this:

@Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak

Did somebody call me?

Jlaw, I offer my apologies for not looking through the moderation queue sooner. All I can plead here is that I'm busy at work (caught in the middle of a staff reorganization) so I can't devote as much time to troping as I'd prefer.

Hi LT, everyone,

You are all very sweet. Thank you so much for the clarification!

It's not so much scars as rejection sensitivity, and wanting to make a good first impression. I feel so silly for botching my first page submission and am aiming to not do that again LOL. My experience has been it feels like there are more power plays than usual on TVT, and so I'm trying to remind myself to trust again in a new space.

I'll ping generic queries for future ones then, and work to improve at my coding. Thank you all for being patient with me!

Best,

Priya