User talk:NoxiousSludge

I've given you a one-day block for deleting an entry from Steven Universe/YMMV. We say it at the top of the edit box for every YMMV page: "Deleting YMMV entries because you disagree with them will result in a temporary ban at the least."

The examples on these pages are somebody's opinion - you might agree or disagree with them, but unless you can show that they've been contradicted by canon, these opinions are just as valid as your opinions are.

If you want to delete something from a YMMV page, please get consensus first.

Fuck you and your heavy handed moderation. This site is even worse than TV Tropes at this point.

Really? Being told that you have to cooperate with other people is worse than being permabanned? Really?

Chill, NS.

If this were TV Tropes,you'd be permabanned already, but because were are not, I'm going to ignore your most recent burst of foolishness and overlook it.

But that's it.

Piss on my leniency, and even I won't go to bat for you anymore.

Returning a year later, I can't help but laugh at the whole "piss on my leniency" bit. Uh oh, I'm so scared of the guy who runs a wiki for free. Better not talk bad about him or else he'll chain my feet to cinder blocks and throw me in the Hudson.

Ah well, that's all I wanted to say on the matter. Best wishes to those who still do stuff around here.

redacted

Very well. I hope you will eventually reconsider, but if not, farewell.

Never gonna happen. I was here from the beginning and as of 2015 or so the site just lost it's long-term appeal. All the unnecessary changes and TV Tropes-tier moderation basically ruined it, so I'm not going to lose any sleep over being banned from a site that I practically have to force myself to browse these days.

Do you think pages can be made for those two games as well? Or should the latter share the Sun and Moon page the same way the third versions of the Gens 1 through 4 games share those games' pages?

I think 2dgirlfan said it best: USUM probably should just have its stuff tacked on alongside S&M while X and Y are definitely deserving of their own pages. Making X and Y pages, updating the character pages for the series in general, and fleshing out the Sun and Moon pages are on my to-do list. I'm just a seriously busy guy. ^^;

X and Y yes, Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon no.

Yeah, I figure USUM can share the SM page for info, since it's really just a revised version of the same games.

I saw that yesterday a Lusamine write-up went up on the Pokemon CM page only to get almost immediately taken down, and both were done by you. I don't understand what was going on there but I'm sure you know full well that not only was Lusamine not discussed prior to the write-up, but she's on the "Examples That Should NOT Be Seen Here" entry of the page's Discussion page. And while TV Tropes' standards and criteria differ from ours in some areas, they also almost unanimously voted her down regardless of how anyone might personally feel about her and her crimes.

There were a few inaccuracies to the write-up as well. Lusamine was called "most depraved, vile antagonist in the series to date", but this might seem like an opinionated statement since the bar has gone very high ever since Gen 4 (though Cyrus is looking better and better now that three Big Bads after him have been directly homicidal to the good guys whereas he was not). The "have them destroy the world" part left out some context for why she'd wanted that - she believed that Nihlego wanted to have an open wormhole between worlds to roam freely into the world just as she wanted it so that she could live in Ultra Space, with the whole "reality destruction" part being collateral damage. In typical Lusamine fashion, she believed she was acting "loving" towards the UBs and easing their pain and confusion when she would be in fact only causing them more pain and confusion by stranding them outside of Ultra Space. The "And even after being defeated in battle, she attempts to murder Lillie in a fit of rage" part is misleading because, IIRC, she'd vowed to murder Lillie prior to being defeated in battle - when she went down for good, a part of her snapped awake from her intoxicated state and recognized that her child was beautiful on the inside and outside even without being dressed to resemble Nihilego, which had become her gold standard for perfect beauty and worthiness of affection. That along with what we hear about her having wanted to go to your Champion luau celebration at the end of the game suggests she's recovering and decreases, if not outright kills, her qualifying for CM. And last, the "it's an inhibition nullifier that caused her to act on existing urges" part was misinterpreted, as the "existing urges" that Lusamine acted on were the urges to love and give affection to what and who she saw as beautiful and in need of loving, while casting out anything not so (anything "ugly" and "undesirable"). In her normal state of mind with her inhibitions raised and properly functioning, Lusamine, while flawed and a bit shallow and conceited, was a loving parent, wife, and caretaker of Pokemon, having inherited a great love of needy Pokemon from her father who'd founded the company and being so dedicated to finding the lost love of her live (her husband Mohn, having been lost to a wormhole) and providing for her family that she continued the research and experiments on UBs, Ultra energy, and wormholes to begin with. But when intoxicated by Nihilego's Neurotoxins (which happens when Nihilego latches onto a host and pretty much possesses it, as Guzma detailed after his encounters with Nihilego in Ultra Space), her inhibitions and thus her moral compass are nullified and all of her natural feelings, thoughts, and actions are made to be directed towards and revolve around Nihilego, as is explained in Nihilego's Dex Entry about it's "protective measure." The postgame further elaborates on Lusamine's Start of Darkness and on the effects of UB Toxin, particularly Nihilego's, and establishes that while not in her right mind, Lusamine is a horrible monster, when she was in her right mind, she was fairly decent and caring despite any of her faults. Therefore, Lusamine's moral and mental agency was severely impaired even if it wasn't actual Brainwashing, which rules her out of counting as a CM. (Also, calling Type: Null a "chimera-abomination Pokemon" was rather on the cruel side seeing as, like other man-made Pokemon, it's shown to have positive qualities and existential value beyond the circumstances of it's birth.)

Please don't feel bad or go down on yourself for any misunderstandings here. This was an honest mistake that just needed some clearing up.

Yeah, I'm real sorry about that. I actually didn't know that Lusamine had been added to the do not add page (I've barely been here the past few months, been busy with a lot of other games and a Steven Universe fanfic that I've kinda sorta been penning up due to absolutely HATING how the show handled a favorite character of mine, but that's neither here nor there, hee hee). I really should have looked there instead of wasting my time spending a few months debating on whether I should or should not post her. Because geez, she is to me what Ghetsis is to you. ._.

But I'm not gonna be like a certain ban evader and her alt account- er, sister and beat a dead horse: I'll let sleeping dogs lie. And hey, I honestly took down her entry after immediately regretting it since I knew that it wasn't gonna fly (As loathsome, unlikable, and honestly, incredibly unsympathetic as I find her, you really can't ignore her final moment on screen). And as for getting the detail regarding the circumstances of her trying to kill Lillie wrong, chalk that up to me posting without refreshing my memory. I totally thought that was what happened. :p

But I dunno, I honestly just can't bring myself to really feel sorry for her. Even with Nihelego's venom taken into account, I still don't feel that it makes her sympathetic in the slightest since even if she were fanatically devoted to looking out for her parasite's well-being, things like her awful behavior towards her children and the way she callously hurt other Pokemon can't really be explained with "The big bad Ultra Beast made her do it, she's just a poor innocent victim!"

But I dunno, in general I just couldn't stand her character, which is funny because I think Gen 7 was really strong characterization-wise. Mainly it's because she ran afoul of probably the queen mother of "tropes" that rub me the wrong way: forcing you to feel sorry for a villain who doesn't warrant any sympathy, or commits actions too horrible to balance out their more sympathetic qualities (And on top of that they gave her a half-assed redemption. She's right up there with Hilda and Sasuke in regards to unsympathetic "tragic" villains who got off way too easy). But also, the Aether Foundation just... weren't really good villains. Just about everyone saw the "Aether Foundation are evil" twist coming from a mile away, and I can't help but feel that unlike Team Skull, they weren't fleshed out enough. Their only real saving graces to me are the fact that the female grunts and Wicke are adorable.

But hey, I'm not gonna rant and go nuts. Like I said, I'll concede and let it be since while I heavily disagree with the notion, she doesn't count. And on an unrelated note, it looks like I'm gonna have to delete a CM entry I made for Yellow Diamond on Steven Universe's YMMV page since barring a plot twist revealing that she's faking it, Yellow seems to have a genuine redeeming quality going for her as of the most recent episode (And on that note, I'm also worried that she'll fall victim to "Clumsily handled "Sympathetic" villain syndrome since the show's writing has been less-than-steller lately). Talk about jumping the gun, heh heh.

(What SU character in question due you think the show mishandled?) Well, Lusamine is a character who not only easily could have been a CM were not for the mitigating factors, but easily could be one in another adaptation if that incarnation removes the mitigating factors and makes her someone who knew damn well what intoxicating herself so much would do to her and what consequences her kids might suffer, but didn't care because she just came to see her obsession with all things Ultra Beast as worth more than the family she used to love and view as beautiful but now writes off as having grown ugly and worth discarding with no remorse at all.

But I can actually understand and appreciate why the game mitigated her villainy with the whole Drunk on the Dark Side angle and made her more tragic and potentially redeemable in the end, since otherwise she'd basically be Ghetsis' Distaff Counterpart and that would be pretty unoriginal. It's more interesting that contrast to Ghetsis, who acted solely for the love of himself and had either apathy or outright contempt for everyone else, Lusamine acted on what she believed was pure (albeit conditional) love for others that she found beautiful and worthy of her love, but it was truly out of a selfishness and madness in herself that she could no longer comprehend, and instead saw everyone who reacted understandably to how she hurt them as being the ungrateful, selfish, hateful ones - it's like morality was flipped on it's head for her intoxicated understanding of a situation versus the situations' actual reality. As for how much I feel for her, it's kind of in the middle - on one hand she's someone who'd never have said or done any of the things she did were she in her right state of mind, but on the other hand her intoxication is a direct result of her own carelessness and obsession with the work she did out of love. We see Guzma get possessed/intoxicated by Nihilego once and after that single occurrence of it, he backed the fuck off and never wanted to go through that again. But Lusamine, being bolder and more ambitious in her research, chose to keep doing it to herself. She wouldn't have become the abusive monster she became had she only recognized what should not be messed with and thought of the consequences. She's a Tragic Villain but not an innocent victim. Like Cyrus and Lsyandre before her, she's the architect of her own self-destruction.

YMMV because, as I said, I did feel sorry for her when everything about her became cleared up, and while her insanity in no way excuses her actions she committed while under the influence of the insanity-stimulation, it does give even her worst Moral Event Horizon moments a more understandable driving force aside from just "because she's evil." (Not sure about "got off way too easy" since she very nearly died from her merger with Nihilego and we have no idea what comes after her recovery - it's very likely she still has to serve time for her crimes against the Alola region and not have any custody of her kids anymore). I also liked the Aether Foundation as villains, but I prefer Team Skull as well. Doesn't everyone? XD

As for Yellow Diamond, I actually think the pain she feels in regards to Pink Diamond might go deeper than it does with Jasper or Blue Diamond, since I theorize that Yellow's probably directly responsible for what happened and why Rose had to shatter Pink. Which would show that for all her rage at Rose and atrocities against other Gems and Earth, there's a guilt factor at play too, which would also be something to disqualify her as an example. I do wonder about White Diamond, though - they could be saving her to be the final enemy and it's possible that she'll turn out to be the only antagonist who is just a flat out evil asshole ala Fire Lord Ozai. We'll just have to wait and see. (Disagree on the show's writing - I think it's still going pretty strong.)

Alright, my crappy tablet's browser tends to crash pretty easily, so I'll make this quick:

Steven Universe I feel has gone downhill simply because I feel that it deals with too much unnecessary angst. I see no reason why Steven should feel that Rose did something horrible by shattering Pink Diamond when she was a heartless, facsist tyrant who upheld an empire that strip-mines planets into oblivion and opresses its subjects, and personally kidnapped humans for her own sick amusement. Similarly, I thought that Jasper was a sadistic monster who got what she deserved and that the show's attempt to force you to feel sorry for her after what she's done was pathetic (As far as I'm concerned, her treatment of Amethyst put her past the point of no return).

There are lots of other reasons, but they'd take too long to list (Short version: I hate how Lapis and Peridot have been written, the plot moves at a glacial pace, and in general the show lost its magical delightful feel after season 2).

Anyway, my fanfic is actually a "WHat if?" story starring Lapis Lazuli, and basically it follows a route where instead of staying at the barn, Lapis decided to talk things over with Steven, and leave Earth and head for a star system that Homeworld tried and failed to conquer in the past. And in that star system, Lapis tries to find her place in the universe by combating space pirates with the help of a small band of adventurers, all the while trying to combat anti-Gem sentiment as well as her feelings of self-loathing, depression, and anxiety.

This probably sounds super dumb (And angsty: I genuinely want it to be a comedic adventure with the occasional bits of heavy themes here and there), but I'm having a lot of fun writing it. I totally must sound arrogant for this, but I just wanted to write something fun for a character who I feel had the ball dropped with her writing.

So basically you don't like the shades of gray getting darker? I really don't think that's fair since it's missing a rather large point of the show - how complicated life is and how everyone is someone who has problems that they deal with in different ways, so things are rarely so simple as being cases of pure good or pure evil. Have we ever seen Pink Diamond in a flashback yet and seen what she was like? If not, then how can we call her a heartless tyrant, and know for certain that the human zoo was for "her own sick amusement?" I thought the implication was that she loved Earth and humanity, and the zoo was done out of that love - the sentiment was innocent but the expression of it (kidnapping and imprisoning) was twisted. I theorize that Pink Diamond and Rose Quartz might have actually bonded over their feelings towards Earth and Rose might have rehabilitated Pink had circumstances not taken a turn for the worse and forced Rose's sword against Pink Diamond (which, again, I suspect is Yellow Diamond's fault and she harbors secret guilt over it). We're already seeing some of that with Blue Diamond, who we never knew personally outside of Ruby and Sapphire's POV in their backstory, but now see that she's not at all what we might have pre-conceived her to be. In fact, that seems to be a big thing with the show's villains - it shows you the results of their actions first so that you get a perception of what they must be like, then challenge that perception when you get to see and learn more about them personally. Nothing changes that what they've done is wrong, bur the idea that their deeds invalidate their worth as living, sentient beings is not supported within the narrative. That's why it's unlikely for the show to have a CM aside from potentially White Diamond.

And Jasper? Jasper pretty much had no life and no personal connections - war and violence was literally all she knew, which is why she couldn't handle something deeper like fusion with other gems. Pink Diamond was pretty much the only person she ever cared about, so when Rose shattered her she was left with nothing and joined Yellow Diamond in order to "feel like less of a failure." That is valid reason to feel sorry for her, even if she wasn't redeemed or redeemable. Sure Jasper absolutely brought her fate on herself and got what she deserved, but at the same time there's reason to pity her and feel bad that her life had to even come to such a downfall. (And hypothetically I could say that I feel Amethysts' treatment of Greg when she pretended to be Rose for petty and sick reasons put her past the point of no return, so should that mean I shouldn't feel sad for her after Jasper put her down?) The way I see it, feeling bad for Jasper after her defeat despite all that she'd done isn't any different from, say, feeling bad for Princess Azula after her defeat despite all that she'd done. It's Cry for the Devil in effect.

I also have not minded how Peridot and Lapis have been written at all - I actually find them to be some of the most entertaining characters on the show as of late.

I've got nothing against complex struggles, but it'd rather be over something that really warrants them. I still don't get why Steven or Rose should feel guilty over Pink Diamond's shattering. Maybe she cared for humanity in a selfish manner. I dunno. But at the end of the day, she was still one of the ringleaders of a quartet of Space Hitlers and her shattering was a good thing.

Quite honestly, I guess this show isn't really for me if they expect us to feel bad for the evil galactic conquerors AFTER we've seen horrifying, awful things like the Cluster and the Corruption Nuke. I personally think that, going back to an earlier point I made, if you want to make a sympathetic villain, actually make them sympathetic.Like Jasper for instance: they could have given her something, anything that resembled a redeeming or sympathetic quality. Instead of having her act like a pushy asshole towards Peridot, why not have her act somewhat standoffish, yet polite towards her and have her show concern over her welfare? Why not actually explore her feelings of self-loathing that the (hack) writers talked about in an interview instead of vaguely allude to it in a brief "Blink and you'll miss it" moment? Why not show her as angry and vengeful towards the Crystal Gems for shattering good Gems who fought by her side? I mean, you mentioned Azula, and I actually did feel bad for her. Mainly because as awful as she was, her more pitiable and sympathetic qualities were properly shown and explored quite a few times. Jasper... had nothing until they shoved in any and all sympathetic qualities into her last few seconds in order to force you to feel bad for her.

I honestly do apologize if I come off as standoffish or inflammatory, I just really hate how it feels to watch a show you really liked at first fall prey to a lot of writing pet peeves you can't stand. I don't think any less of you for liking it, I just want to vent and really put my issues with the show into words.

Shattering Pink Diamond was a bad thing for the same reason Bismuth's plans for Home World were a bad thing - it's a horrific form of Gem murder, and Steven had always believed that Rose was far above taking lives in order to solve problems. But not only did Rose take a life, but sure enough it did not solve anything and in fact has only made things worse since all the major villains now (Jasper, Yellow Diamond, Blue Diamond, even that Mook Squad of Rubies) took Pink Diamond's death as motivation for their horrible actions in the name of vengeance for her and spite towards Rose. That's the issue Steven takes with this whole Pink Diamond thing. Taking the life of another living sentient being is bad by sheer principle unless it is in self defense or absolutely warranted, and so far nothing has convinced Steven that the situation with Pink Diamond made murder necessary.

Well if you don't like being challenged that way, sure. I personally think it's clever writing to show us horrible things done by these individuals who make up "the enemy" that make us perceive them as "evil galactic conquerors" and nothing more, but then throw a curve ball at us by showing that they're, for lack of a better term, human too and have reasons for their actions that we might not have ever considered before, all while not trying to make us think that their actions are in any way okay and they don't need to be stopped - they aren't and they do, no question. They're still the bad guys, but not everything about them is 100% bad just like far from everything about Rose Quartz was 100% good.

As for Jasper, she did have two Even Evil Has Standards moments - expressing disgust that Rose would hide herself in a human child, and calling Lapis a "monster" for being far more brutal in her violence towards her than she'd been towards her when they were inside the Malachite fusion - and everything about her character was written as a hardened, embittered warrior Gem whose life was war and nothing else, with all her talk about the battles she'd been in before and how she didn't understand the point of fusion beyond being "a cheap trick to make weak Gems stronger". In fact, once she finally experienced fusion herself, she had virtually no handle on it because it requires an actual working relationship rather than just fighting and thus her only takeaway from it was how much stronger the abusive dynamic with Lapis made her, which made her whole "take me back, Lapis!" pleading in Lost At Sea extra pitiful. She wasn't trying to manipulate Lapis - she legitimately felt that way about their Malachie fusion and was blind to what about it was so wrong and unhealthy. (Which actually does show her feelings of self-loathing since she so easily got so discouraged in her own strength that she became reliant on something or someone else to power her up). The last of her sympathetic qualities couldn't be revealed 'til the end because it'd spoil the Pink Diamond reveal, but I think Jasper was painted as a Tragic Monster successfully. If she'd been redeemed in that last episode it'd be another matter, but she wasn't - she couldn't be saved from her own self-destruction and got the Alas, Poor Villain treatment instead.

I can understand your position, but I just don't agree with it. It's pretty clear to me that a lot of what's going on in the show now was planned from the start - Steven Universe was never meant to be a show with a simplified "Heroes fighting in the name of Big Good Rose Quartz VS completely, utterly evil Big Bad Diamond Authority" conflict. The truth was always to be more complicated, and while the crimes committed by the enemy do not cease to be heinous, the enemy themselves aren't simply cartoonish evildoers - they're people with a different point of view in which Rose Quartz is their story's Big Bad and are dealing with their problems in entirely wrong ways. It's not a perfect show, but I don't think it's become a poorly written one. I honestly have more issues with the writing on the later seasons of Adventure Time than I do the later seasons of Steven Universe.

On the Syndrome re-discussion that recently occurred on the CM thread on TV Tropes, 17 votes went in favor of adding Syndrome, with 3 others leaning towards yes despite abstaining, and just 10 voting him down.

Yes for Syndrome: zcooper95, Ravok, Very Melon, Camberf, doineedaname, Austin DR, Phil Sat, Demon Duckof Doom, Fried Warthog, Irene, rosewood47, Clown-Face, MovieFan2000, AquaRegia, bobg, MGD107, and username2627 ( plus AnewMan, Karxrida, and Scraggle leaning towards yes)

No for Syndrome: Fighteer, Lightysnake, Morgenthaler, Awesomekid 42, emperors, nrjxll, MiraiYuji, LargoQuagmire, Nithael, HamburgerTime

And yet Fighteer invoked his mod powers to stop the discussion and insist that nothing new was brought to the table and that Syndrome will not go up as an example, even though he clearly won the majority vote here. I wish I was kidding...

Back in the day Fast Eddie just flat out deleted discussions about his stupid renames. I think it was the one to "Little Miss Snarker" which was renamed by script (that didn't leave edit history and left the alphabetical order broken) after it had just been manually renamed to Deadpan Loli from "The Ruri" with all references changed manually.

At least things aren't on that level of corruption any more. XD

I'll admit, I'm content to live and let live: they have their own criteria, we have ours, and thus I usually don't mind if they disagree with us.

But yeah, that was some downright blatant bullshit on his part. I still don't know what was worse about that situation: saying that Syndrome couldn't qualify due to a quick gag involving a supervillain trying to launch a missile (Who is both shown for a few seconds, AND the missile's capacity for destruction not being that clear) meaning that he's not as bad as he could be, or Fighteer essentially flipping over the game board and storming off like a kid throwing a tantrum.

But still, as 2dgirldfan said, this has been kind of a site-wide problem in general, so I can't say I'm surprised.

I have that policy too - I just find it odd, kind of funny and kind of frustrating that Syndrome ended up counting by their policy of voting up examples and yet didn't go up.

They should just be honest at this point and edit his entry on the Never Again List to "Syndrome- Doesn't count because I say so."

It seems all of the "insufficiently heinous" examples (Syndrome, Turbo, Ghetsis, Tirek) are code for "don't count because we don't want them to." At least examples like Hopper or Yakone have legit reasons to not be on, even if I don't agree with them.

I deleted the Nintendo Wars and Xenoblade CM pages due to lack of enough content or poor wording, and I now determine that all remaining CM pages are fine as they are. :)

Hooray! :D

Yeah, I know! :)

I thought it might be better to keep them on the DC Comics Monster page but give Batman it's own section like X-Men has in Marvel. That way we don't have to worry about a page for Batman examples from all over a bunch of different media aside from the Arkham games. Unless you'd really like one...

I did just because I thought it would free up some space, unclutter some pages, that stuff. I'm really, really sorry. :(

Don't worry, it wasn't a bad thing - it's just that another way of sorting those comicverse examples out was possible, so I opted for that instead.

While the Anime/Manga and Western Animation Complete Monster pages, plus all the subfolders in all the categories, seem to be just fine, I've decided to I'm going to compare the Fan Works, Films, Live Action TV, and Webcomics pages directly with TV Tropes', see what examples we might be missing, and add writeups for them. Is it possible that you could do the same for Comics, Literature, Video Games, and Web Original, since those seem to be areas you're familiar with?

(Also, do you think it's fair that I blocked Lady Satsuki/Honorshipper? I felt like her/their approach to this trope was getting greatly detrimental to it and she/they refused to listen to the regulations that I repeatedly laid out.)

I could definitely look through those sections you mentioned, comics in particular seems to be the easiest for now. However, I may be a bit slow to add some video game examples if they're from a work I intend to play in the future and don't want to be spoiled (For example, I'm not adding anyone from the recently released Fallout 4 until I play the game myself).

Oh boy, I really, really wanted to stay out of this whole debacle if I could. But it looks like I really have no choice in the matter, huh? Honestly, given that she (I'm not entirely convinced that they're different people and not one with several alts) kept screwing around and has a history with stirring shit and causing lots of trouble on other sites and the like, I suppose her ban is justified, especially due to her instance that just about every rapey character under the sun counts despite there being multiple factors that prevent said candidates from counting (Redeeming qualities, being played for laughs, being outclassed by other candidates).

(And as an aside, I don't know if I agree on Chester counting or not. I don't really have a horse in that race as I have no desire to watch the movie series that he's from, but refusing to do so means that I'm missing context to his actions and the like.)

Anything from Fallout 4 would go on the Fallout page rather than the Video Game one, right?

LOL, I can see why you'd feel like staying out of it. (I'm also suspicious of the whole "sisters" thing not being truthful). But yes, she's had many offenses now - asking about cutting examples that sufficiently align with the criteria for qualifying does nothing to progress the trope and only sets us back, it's one thing to propose an example and then add it once there's been a verdict or compromise on the matter but another to add a new example out of the blue and yet another to cut an example while putting up a new one in place of the one you cut, not letting go of Single Issue Wonks, and adding examples based upon personal opinion, feelings, and ethics (essentially Audience Reaction) rather than the actual criteria, with yes, the usual candidates being rape-y. I can understand standards against rape (everyone should have those) but man is she taking it to ridiculous extremes in the proposal of candidates guilty of so much as just threatening rape rather than doing it (Jan F**king Valentine, anyone?)

From the clips I've seen and info I've read up on, he seems like just a nasty cartoon villain who's extreme for his setting and work, but not sufficiently heinous or horrific enough to pass for this trope. That's another thing she's yet to learn - that not every super nasty Outright Villain is necessarily a CM. By proposing candidates like Chester, Lord Farquaad, Drake, Queen Victoria, Mrs. Tweedy, Zelda, Nurse Claiborne, Red Claw, Tony Zucco (Animated Series version), the Torturer from Berserk, Bishop Mozgus, Teru Mikami, Nnoitora, Jan Valentine, Ardos, Grumm, Mirloc, Zira, the Nome King, and freaking Governor Ratcliffe, she is risking setting the trope back to the days where any villain or character who crossed the MEH and was found even the slightest bit despicable by audience members could qualify, including Mr. Krabs, Eric Cartman, Peter Griffin, Chris Mclean, and Discord, which is the last thing (other than the opposite extreme that TV Tropes champions) that we want the trope to become on this wiki.

If I might recommend something concerning FO4 (and other works we don't have pages for): We need to have basic pages for them established with the bare minimum of what the work is about and the setting/circumstances so we can use that as a base for more properly evaluating CM status. Context would help keep the definition from being diluted as indicated above, and having details about the context on hand can only help.

I've actually thought about making pages for works that I like with no pages yet... but that's a lot of work. @_@ Still, I don't want to make excuses or anything.

I still don't know how new pages are made. :(

Creating new pages is easy. There are several ways to do it.

Probably the quickest and easiest is to click an existing redlink -- like, say, your handle in your signature. (If you need a redlink to click, you can just code a link in a page you want to connect to your new page -- I'm pretty sure you know how to do that by now.) Anyway, clicking a redlink will immediately open an editing window where you can create the new page. At the top of that window is a dropdown where you can select from a couple dozen page types to insert a "skeleton" of an empty page (called a "boilerplate") of the appropriate type into the edit window. Then all you need to do is add the text.

Another way is to just go up into the address bar of your browser and type the URL for a non-existent page, like

https://allthetropes.miraheze.org/wiki/Nonexistent Page for Example

(Protip: You don't need to put underscores between the words -- but you'd better make sure things are capitalized and punctuated the way you want them.)

Hit enter, and the wiki will present you with a page that says, basically, "there's nothing here -- do you want to do a search or edit this page?" Chose "edit this page" and you're at the editing window I mentioned above.

The last way is to search for the page you want to create. You'll get a page of results which leads off with a note that reads "Create the page "Nonexistent Page for Example" on this wiki!", with the pagename redlinked. Click the redlink and once again you're at that handy-dandy edit page with the boilerplate dropdown.

Note that if you want to create a trope, you need to create the page in the Trope Workshop -- but right now the automated stuff for the Workshop isn't working.

Works pages, and subpages for existing works, creators, tropes and other stuff, are free -- you can just make them without having to get a consensus first.

Hope that helps!

Alright then. I noticed that some works on CM pages were a bit overdosed and deserved their own folders, so I'll be creating those pages now.

Good idea, Doc. In fact, I heavily encourage that practice. :)

Now I need to ask...how do I add Categories to the pages?

See https://allthetropes.miraheze.org/wiki/Help:Categories

And please go back over the pages you created and add the Complete Monster category to them.

Why do you think I was asking? :P

I'm also wondering if The Godfather warrants it's own page, especially since only the first example is fully detailed and valid, the second is arguable, and the third is pretty bad. Should I delete that one? (I'm thinking of lastly adding pages for Highlander, The X-Files, and "Other" like TV Tropes has.)

A candidate we discussed once and deemed potentially too YMMV, Sigma from the Mega Man X reboot, looks to be getting upvoted on TV Tropes. Ready for a writeup on him?

Not quite yet, I'm paranoid that one of the more known posters will downvote him and thus getothers to follow suit. Unlike a certain poster who shall not be named I refuse to outright lie or omit info, yet at the same time I'm paranoid that I forgot a key disqualifying factor or that someone disagreeing will lead others to retract their votes. I'm aware it's a stupid thing to worry about, but still. @_@

And yeah, I proposed him, mainly because there was a detail that I missed and thought it was worth bringing up there: the berserk mechanaloids were hacked under Sigma's orders by a group of criminals he hired. However, he murdered them all soon after the Mechanaloids were hacked as a way to cover his tracks, showing blatant Bad Boss tendencies.

You were referring to Klavice there, weren't you? Admit it. :P

I'm not going to comment further, because it seems kinda scummy to do so when said poster isn't here to defend themselves.

But then again, I'm being a hypocrite since I bought them up to begin with. Oh well.

I personally feel there's such a thing as an Acceptable Target but yeah, let's drop that matter.

Alright, change of subject then!

You know, on our Marvel films subpage I don't really have any issues with its candidates.. except for Norman Osborn. I know we discussed him pretty in-depth a while back, but in spite of all his bad traits, his love for Harry later on in the film strikes me as being a little too genuine, especially since his final words were him begging Peter not to tell Harry about him being the Goblin and doing all those awful things. I know it ultimately complicated matters and led to Harry wanting to get revenge on Spider-Man, but I don't see that as his intention so much as him not wanting to hurt him.

It just seems to me that this Norman is a lot closer to pre-90's Norman from the comics where he was still sympathetic and genuinely cared for his son. I feel that by my standards, a Complete Monster incarnation of Norman would hurt, attempt to murder, or otherwise do other awful things to Harry like he did later on in the comics and in The Spectacular Spider-Man.

But eh, ultimately I might just be missing some bigger piece of the picture, and you'll probably discuss it in the upcoming "Keepers" topic on that page.

What a coincidence - I just got done with the discussion.

If you want to get technical, Norman's love for Harry is often always pretty genuine in any incarnation of the character - it's just that he doesn't really like his son personally unless he's what he wants him to be, and his affection is completely twisted and conditional, meaning that he's still an abusive father even when showing his version of "love" to his son. The "don't tell Harry" line was very vague but I never saw it as sympathetic - if it was Norman sincerely asking it, it comes off as more "don't let Harry have a bad image of me as a person", and if he's still in full Goblin mode, he might have hoped Harry would take up his cause to avenge him against Spider-Man and thus carry on his spirit.

Even in the comics Norman chose to act against Spider-Man out of anger at Harry's death and in The Spectacular Spider-Man he often gave encouragement to Harry and rationalized his actions towards him, even twisting his ankle and framing him, as being for his sake to "make a man out of him", and expressing pride in him moments before his final defeat. It's a twisted form of fatherly love but it doesn't truly mitigate Norman's monstrosity as a thoroughly, irredeemably terrible human being.

That's a pretty valid way to look at his character. In the end, he's probably one of the most complex examples I can think of from media I've consumed in that he has plenty of humanizing qualities and is even kind of tragic, but he's still ultimately a horrible person who goes beyond redemption.

And another thing, I think you're best off with handling the rest of the Keeper lists (Though I'll still do the Fallout and Elder Scrolls ones since I take it that you're not familiar with them like me). I'm not trying to suck up, but you're a lot better at writing: my writing tends to be really rough around the edges and you're always having to tidy it up after me. I'm not trying to feel down on myself, but I think I'll back off on what feels more like your territory.

Exactly, and he's been that way in various stories past his resurrection in the nineties, though others write him as simply pure evil and thoroughly inhumane in a revolting and largely generic way. The "Death In The Family" story by Paul Jenkins as a good example of one that actually manages to make you feel a touch of pity for the guy but still write him as ultimately being too far gone to be anything but a Complete Monster in the end.

Thanks and you're welcome. I take it that means I gotta tackle the Mario page?

If you want. I feel I can justify Grubba and Terrormisu's presence just fine, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what to write about the Shadow Queen for some reason. I agree that she counts, I'm just drawing up blanks.

Alright, I'll handle Mario, One Piece, and other pages tomorrow. ^^

Maybe I'm just being a paranoid loon, but I'm officially dropping any and all discussion on Sigma on the main site and letting his discussion just kind of die down. I realized too late that I misunderstood parts of his character and thus led people on with false info. Not wanting to become you-know-who 2.0 and damage my credibility, I'm just going to pretend that I never proposed him.

Wait, what got misunderstood?

His motivation. I got it mixed up with his in Mega Man X where he explicitly wanted a world without humans while in Maverick Hunter X it was to unleash X's full potential and use that as a basis for all Reploids.

And what did he intend for the Reploids to do?

Evolve, basically.

But what would that gain?

I don't know, Sigma just keeps talking about speeding along the evolution of Reploid kind.

That's strange. There's a chance he might still qualify, though. Darwinist villains have counted before - just look at Mr. Sinister.

I guess. I suppose it helps that he regularly endangers tons of Reploids without feeling remorseful or regretful about it. Like I said, he seems like he cares only for satisfying his own curiosity regarding X's potential.

I'm not sure how it'll turn out, but we'll wait to see if he either comes up again on the thread or is just forgotten about.

Yeah, that's what I want to do. I'm sorry for fretting over such stupid things like this and Lorithia a month ago, I've just had a nasty habit of letting dumb fears consume me lately.

I'm thinking of at least writing Sigma up here though. Would you support that notion?

If you feel up to it, then by all means.

Once again, I'm so sorry that this whole thing has been completely, totally stupid. I just need to stop fretting over things that aren't such a big deal.

If you have even the tiniest concerns, just let someone who will listen (like me) know.

You probably know this already, but I completely agree with you about Turbo being a CM, and I was genuinely shocked when I first found out TV Tropes don't consider him one. Did you that I used to be on that site and actually tried to get the verdict overturned repeatedly?

What do you mean by that, exactly?