Zork Nemesis/Headscratchers

When in the timeline does the hookah cutscene take place, and who are they talking about? We're supposed to think at first that they're talking about the Nemesis, [[spoiler:but since the Nemesis wasn't created until after the alchemists were killed, that can't be it. They might be talking about Lucien, but telling him their secret wouldn't guarantee their survival, it would only have made him more determined to stop them, which makes that unlikely. Kaine is absent from the scene, so the three might be referring to him, before they decided to recruit him; what they say about "this nemesis" is very in-character for Kaine, but then there's Sophia, Kaine's lover and the one who suggested recruiting him, arguing against letting him in on their secrets. Apparently a novelization has the scene be referring to Lucien, when he was actively stalking the alchemists, but that still doesn't completely make sense.