Per consensus vote, trope candidate has been deleted.
At least two mods think that this is a case of People Sit on Chairs -- every power has a power source.
Calling for a vote: delete?
@Agiletek @GentlemensDame883 @Haggishunter @HeneryVII @Ilikecomputers @Jlaw @Kuma @Lequinni @RivetVermin @Umbire the Phantom @Utini501 @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak
I want to vote against deletion because it can be salvaged in a way. I didn't think that trying to put a trope on the workshop like this would cause this much trouble. I wanted to post a trope on the Trope Workshop and workshop it till it becomes a candidate. My communication skills aren't the best, and my being autistic has made it challenging. What I am saying is my autism is a reason, not an excuse, for how I convey things, but I do want to improve. This can still be reworked into something different with Chaos Entity. I have an idea, and to get started, I want to rename it Power Source Crutch. The trope is about how a society within a setting uses a Power Source. Their civilization can even be seen as ideal and utopic. However, in other settings, it can be dystopic due to the power source. The problem comes with how there is more to the Power Source in question where it causes more trouble rather than less. There are some examples on the page already. Dimension W has its society power by the titular dimension. Nevertheless, due to how illegal Coils called the Numbers are scattered around the world, it can cause interdimensional instability that can spread to other Coils around them, leading to chaos. Final Fantasy VII has Mako, an energy extracted from the Lifestream of Gaia through Shinra's Mako Reactors for electricity. The extraction of Mako would lead the planet to die. Xenogears has Ether, which comes from the Zohar and allows for limitless energy, but it's used by Deus to enforce an oppressive society while enforced by the Gears mecha. There is also how the Zohar also keeps the Wave Existence trapped from going to their home dimension. If this doesn't convince you that this workshop page can be salvaged, you can delete it. If you plan to delete it, I want to hear the reason but lay it down on easy for me. My mindset is not the best right now, and I am doing my best to keep it together. Also, suppose anyone knows about any ATT tropes describing how a skill or ability on a power source is manipulated if anyone knows.
Vote in favor of deletion.
Kuma, if it isn't in the candidate, it's not part of the trope. Long explanations here do not do anything but make people's eyes glaze over.
Okay, that is my bad and I will work on that. There is something that confuses me and if you can give me an explanation then I promise I will change my vote to have this page deleted. You and Robkelk state "Every power has a power source" but one part of the description on the page states "They can power technology that is integral to society for the Status Quo." So then, how does the use of a power source in a setting for technology also count as a superpower?
I didn't say "superpower". I said "power".
As for how technology counts as a power, remember Clarke's Third Law -- technology as powers is mentioned there as example of Applied Phlebotinum.
Not to rain on your parade but the quote actually states "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." There is a difference between magic and superpowers especially when it comes to their power sources. My trope was about how the setting uses the power source and what the power source is along with its use affecting the society or the setting as a whole one way or another. Also, try to re-phrase "every power has a power source" as that led to my misconception since it looks like you are saying 'every superpower has a power source' rather than 'power sources give power like electricity thus it is power.' Just want to give my last thoughts before I find closure. A promise is a promise and so I vote to delete it.
Rob and I are both quite aware of the exact wording of Clarke's Third Law, being writers in the SF/F genre with close to a century's experience between us. Don't try to lecture us. And again, don't explain here what your attempt at a trope candidate is about. Make the candidate say it, instead of forcing people to guess.
This is a consistent issue with your trope candidates, Kuma. They are initially all but incomprehensible and it often requires months of nudging and reminding you to turn them into something that explains itself adequately to anyone but you -- and sometimes in doing so you turn them into something completely other than what you started off claiming they were. It's aggravating, and it extends the candidate approval process outrageously and unnecessarily. By now you ought to know what we look for in a candidate -- but you don't give it to us. And honestly? We're getting a little tired of having to hand-hold you through the entire process again and again.
First, I want to apologize if this is too long; I wanted to discuss the misunderstanding caused by my post with @Robkelk and how I want to move forward into the future. I apologize to you and thank you for opening your response. I didn't mean to lecture any of you; I just got hyper-fixated and passionate, especially regarding lore involving Sci-Fi and Fantasy genres, which led me to thinking that they were different, but from your words, there seem to be similarities, at least from your response (though I am a bit confused). I can get obsessed over lore, world-building, and any information I can consume (Heck, one of the things I love is just reading swathes after swathes of information and I thought people like doing that too, but now I see that some people may hate that). I was trying to show my perspective and understand yours from my last post, but I may have failed with my attempt, though I learned something. My intention was to show how much I wanted to be a part of the process of deleting the page while trying to use your logic to justify the deletion. I want to correct what I have done wrong, especially since you are discussing the candidates with me, which feels rare. I am okay with being lectured about improving and going in-depth about what I have done that caused strife. I took the concept of workshopping, which I thought meant that I could post a possible candidate a trope and then work with others to bring it into something that flourishes. I am sorry for troubling you with my past posts on any Talk pages from previous discussions. I should've realized that while I can get wrapped up in proving I am right, I must also consider the possibility of getting something wrong. I always had fun figuring out more about what I have gotten right or wrong with a trope as it made sense but unintentionally caused ire to you. I have had other Trope Workshops as there have been pages like Chosen Family, Kori Kombat, and Mon Machine that have an easy time being understood and launched with little discussion on what it means. However, I'll admit that the others I have posted have problems here and there. I have had little problem with Blessing and Be A Mon, but if there are any issues, I am okay discussing them on their Talk pages. One problem that I have identified is how I might have misinterpreted Tropes Are Flexible, so from now on, I'll make sure that they are straightforward rather than making them have a wide range.
I don't believe we can have a discussion. You constantly use English in a non-standard way, and you misinterpret my words when I use English in a standard way. We cannot communicate.
Well, we can. People can grow and understand each other if they take the time and effort to communicate. My communication skills need work, and I won't deny that. There is potential for growth, and comprehension feels possible since I have been able to talk with others online, albeit with some issues. Though, there have been improvements as I went on. Also, when trying to discuss the trope, I kept doing it late at night due to a lack of sleep and exhaustion from work. It felt like I couldn't properly engage with you if I didn't reply sooner. I'll post when I am rested and coherent in the future.
There's flexible, and then there's silly putty. Tropes are not silly putty.
Voting to delete, though the page image and general description does make me wonder if there would be merit in a potential "Fantastic Power Plant" trope that focuses on locations where divine/magical/alien/eldritch powers are refined and utilized as an energy source. I feel like this trope was trying to go for something similar to that, and if it's worth pursuing I'd be happy to take this idea to the Workshop.
That sounds like a beautiful idea,@Utini501! I could help gather examples with you to help make a Trope Workshop page.
Voting to delete. If there was a nugget of value in the original, it needed a lot more work to unearth than was done as is.
I'm going to have to go with delete too. The subject seems like it's addressed better by other tropes with a more discrete set of criteria.
After three days, five votes to delete, only one vote to not delete. We have a consensus. The candidate gets deleted.
Candidate deleted per consensus vote, thus no need for an illustration, animated or not.
Once again, the trope proposer has used an animated GIF where there's no need for one. This time, it's dangerously close to cycling at a rate that's seizure-invoking. And the animation doesn't add to the trope.
Power Source doesn't have an animated GIF.
Can we please have a static image on this page instead of an animation?
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I would recommend, if we do use a similar image, it should be non animated and be made a two part "before and after" image to illustrate the meaning without needing an animation.
Okay, I changed the image of the GIF. I wanted to add something animated due to being a fan of animation and how it can help maybe make the page more engaging by showing something that has fluid movement and action. Also, All The Tropes showing GIFs is something the TvTropes doesn't have on their page which can help make the site more unique in it own way.If you think the current GIF is too much then does the other image work on the Image Links works: https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Trope_Workshop:Source_Control/Image_Links#Tabletop_Games?
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I wanted to add something animated |
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Please, don't. And (speaking as a troper, not a mod) we should replace the other animated images as well. Or, at a bare minimum and if it's possible, set up the wiki so that they don't autoplay.
Meanwhile, given the incredible vagueness of the candidate's description, none of the three images you have uploaded so far, Kuma, actually say anything to me that clarifies or typifies what the trope is about.
I apologize for how I first made the trope, where I focused more on how it can be connected to powers and magic. I wanted to make the trope about how a Power Source helps power an essential part of the setting. I am posting after I changed the description and the image so that it can help describe it better. Still, if the changes I have made today don't come to snuff, they can be discussed further and workshopped if necessary. I also want to use the Tropes Are Flexible so that the trope can help add to the world-building that the trope can help describe. Also, Robkelk, why did you only focus on one part of my last post on the discussion rather than the whole?
I apologize for how I first made the trope, where I focused more on how it can be connected to powers and magic. I wanted to make the trope about how a Power Source helps power an essential part of the setting. I am posting after I changed the description and the image so that it can help describe it better. Still, if the changes I have made today don't come to snuff, they can be discussed further and workshopped if necessary. I also want to use the Tropes Are Flexible so that the trope can help add to the world-building that the trope can help describe. Also, Robkelk, why did you only focus on one part of my last post on the discussion rather than the whole?
EDIT for Robkelk's question: I wanted to add about magic and powers while discussing the power sources that Robkelk brought up. From what I can tell, magic always has a source in media, which is, more often than not, mana. However, how magic is used along with mana or any similar source can differ. Magic in Harry Potter is different from magic in Negima, where they are both magic but have differences from how wizards in Harry Potter can cast spells by using a compatible wand with the right words. In contrast, Negima has mana, knowledge, and affinity to use it. When it comes to superpowers, it becomes more complex. An example of a superpower with a power source would be Aura and Semblances from RWBY. Aura is a power that can be projected in different ways, and Semblances stem from Aura while also being empowered by it. If users run out of Aura, they can't use it along with their Semblance. Another example is Fragments from NEEDLESS that are the source of a Needless' unique power and their passive abilities. One final example of powers with a power source would be Justu from Naruto, powered by a user's chakra, which depends on how well the ninja can control their charka to use Jutsu efficiently. Now then, with power that is vague regarding a source. My point is that while there are power sources and powers connected to them, each can be unique and bring a different form of world-building compared to one another rather than just thinking it's the same thing.
Resolved by deleting trope candidate.
"Source Control" has a very specific meaning -- it's a particular type of software used by developers and programmers. For instance, see the page "What is Source Control?" at Amazon Web Services. Anyone seeing this name is going to think it's a page on this kind of software, not superpowers, and be either confused or disappointed.
-- Looney Toons, admin
Pinging the Usual Suspects: @Agiletek @GentlemensDame883 @HeneryVII @HLIAA14YOG @Lequinni @RivetVermin @Umbire the Phantom @Utini501 @Jlaw @Bauerbach @HelljmprRookie @Tad Cipher @Dominicmgm @The23rdCamper @Just a 1itt1e bit further @TheEric132 @Xemylixa @H-Games~Documentation @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak
Agreed. we are not TV Tropes, we do not use Real Life terms to mean something other than what the rest of the world means.
Since the description states that this is the manipulation of a Power Source, I propose Power Manipulation as the new name. I like names that are Exactly What It Says on the Tin.
I agree to renaming away from "Source Control", but not to "Power Manipulation". Power Manipulation to me sounds like a meta-power about, well, manipulating powers, an encompassment and supertrope of things like granting powers, De-Power, Discard and Draw, changing the functions and parameters of powers, Power Copying, Power Nullifier, that sort of thing. I've no idea what to rename to, though.
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Power Manipulation to me sounds like a meta-power about, well, manipulating powers, |
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Isn't that what this trope is, though? (The description isn't very clear, but that's the feeling that I'm getting from what's written.)
Or do we have to make a distinction between "Power Manipulation" and "Powers Manipulation"?
What the description seems to be saying to me is that it's about abilities that operate through controlling and manipulating a source of energy. Not about manipulating and altering a superpower.
Tagging @Kuma because this is his proposal and pagemaker should be the one to explain what he's getting at.
Thank you, GentlemensDame883, for mentioning me. The trope is supposed to be about a Power Source used in a setting. The most common I have found is where they are used for powers and magic. Some are used to power technology, like Xenogears. That said, I suggest it be renamed 'Power Source Control' as that would help it become less confusing with the real-life terms or how it makes it sound like a trope about powers that can manipulate other powers.
The phrase "Source Control" is the issue here. It has a Real Life meaning that has nothing to do with this trope. Using it here would be like using one particular person's sobriquet as the name of the trope Sobriquet... which we fixed years ago. Let's not need to fix something new.
EDIT: And don't all powers have a power source? Is this a case of People Sit on Chairs?
I'm inclined to agree with you, Rob. I reread the description, such as it is, and unless there is something critical which Kuma has left out (as he has done in previous trope candidates) the trope boils down to "using a power, somehow". The description is so unspecific and vague that it doesn't seem to be about anything other than having a power and using it.
I think before we can rename this trope, we actually have to find out what the hell Kuma actually means, and I don't want to have to wait a couple years before Kuma once again explains that what he wrote isn't what the trope is really about and somehow implies we're all idiots for not realizing that when he wrote "orange" he obviously meant "earthquake".
Meanwhile, I'm going to make this clear -- I will do everything in my power to block this candidate until it has a) an actual description that makes sense to the average reader and describes a clear and unique pattern in story-telling, and b) has a name, be it clever or straightforward, that actually corresponds to the page content.
I will repeat it from my post about the other discussion about the trope: I focused too much on one aspect of what I wanted to show, but now I have come to what I needed to become understandable. I changed it so that there is a focus on how a power source affects the setting, making sure that there is a focus on world-building, along with changes to the examples. I have already made changes today. I also suggest a name that could help describe the trope, 'Power Source Function,' to help describe how a power source is used in the setting.
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I changed it so that there is a focus on how a power source affects the setting, |
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I would never have guessed that this was the intended meaning of the trope. In fact, as long as the word "Control" is in the trope name, I would have guessed the exact opposite.
@Kuma, you really need to learn how to express yourself in the English language before submitting any more trope candidates.
Agreed. You have a bad habit of writing trope candidates that don't actually describe what you think you're writing about.
That said, I still think this candidate is People Sit on Chairs, because it boils down to "There is an energy. It's used to power things." And the (new) main text is more of a list than a description.
No, not impressed.