Alternative Character Interpretation/Tabletop Games: Difference between revisions

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* This happened a lot in the ''[[Old World of Darkness (Tabletop Game)|Old World of Darkness]]'':
* This happened a lot in the ''[[Old World of Darkness (Tabletop Game)|Old World of Darkness]]'':
** Nowhere did it stand out more than in ''[[Mage: The Ascension (Tabletop Game)|Mage: The Ascension]]''. When the games began, the mystically oriented Traditions were the good guys fighting a war of ideology against the all-powerful Technocracy, who tried to "smooth out" the bumps in reality through extermination of all supernatural creatures. As the game went through multiple revisions, however, the flaws and in-fighting of the Traditions began to come to the fore, and it became possible for the player characters to be a group of young, idealistic Technocrats trying to reform a corrupt monolith from the inside.<br /><br />The later sourcebooks (and the old stuff if you look hard enough) make it more and more easy to believe that the Technocracy, even with its flaws, really is doing the right thing by trying to save humanity from all the supernatural things that want to eat them, enslave them, or remake the world in their own image. A world ruled by the Technocracy might be bleak, but imagine a world dominated by the philosophical paradigm of, say, [[The Magocracy|The Order of Hermes]], or the [[Gaias Vengeance|Verbena]]...<br /><br />To put a point on it: depending on who you ask, the Technocracy is a genocidal [[Big Brother Is Watching|Thought Police]] bent on creating a stagnant world they have absolute control over, a bunch of [[Well Intentioned Extremist|Well-Intentioned Extremists]] for whom [[Utopia Justifies the Means]], or [[Designated Villain|Designated Villains]] who are the absolutely justified in their belief that supernatural influence over the Human Race is a quantifiable bad thing. By that same token, the Council of Nine either represents the last best hope for creativity, nobility and the realization of personal potential, or a bunch of selfish children who refuse to acknowledge the true implication of their abilities against the Greater Good. It's all heavily dependent on where on the [[Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism]] the World of Darkness lies. Unfortunately for the Traditions, this is the [[Exactly What It Says On the Tin|World of Darkness.]]
** Nowhere did it stand out more than in ''[[Mage: The Ascension (Tabletop Game)|Mage: The Ascension]]''. When the games began, the mystically oriented Traditions were the good guys fighting a war of ideology against the all-powerful Technocracy, who tried to "smooth out" the bumps in reality through extermination of all supernatural creatures. As the game went through multiple revisions, however, the flaws and in-fighting of the Traditions began to come to the fore, and it became possible for the player characters to be a group of young, idealistic Technocrats trying to reform a corrupt monolith from the inside.<br /><br />The later sourcebooks (and the old stuff if you look hard enough) make it more and more easy to believe that the Technocracy, even with its flaws, really is doing the right thing by trying to save humanity from all the supernatural things that want to eat them, enslave them, or remake the world in their own image. A world ruled by the Technocracy might be bleak, but imagine a world dominated by the philosophical paradigm of, say, [[The Magocracy|The Order of Hermes]], or the [[Gaias Vengeance|Verbena]]...<br /><br />To put a point on it: depending on who you ask, the Technocracy is a genocidal [[Big Brother Is Watching|Thought Police]] bent on creating a stagnant world they have absolute control over, a bunch of [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|Well-Intentioned Extremists]] for whom [[Utopia Justifies the Means]], or [[Designated Villain|Designated Villains]] who are the absolutely justified in their belief that supernatural influence over the Human Race is a quantifiable bad thing. By that same token, the Council of Nine either represents the last best hope for creativity, nobility and the realization of personal potential, or a bunch of selfish children who refuse to acknowledge the true implication of their abilities against the Greater Good. It's all heavily dependent on where on the [[Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism]] the World of Darkness lies. Unfortunately for the Traditions, this is the [[Exactly What It Says On the Tin|World of Darkness.]]
** The central idea of ''[[Demon: The Fallen (Tabletop Game)|Demon: The Fallen]]'' is the alternate interpretation that Lucifer rebelled [[Satan Is Good|in order to save humanity]] from being condemned to ignorance by an uncaring God. But even that interpretation is subject to a decent amount of doubt. Was it for love? Or was Lucifer simply ambitious? Or did he do it because God ''told'' him to?<br /><br />And there's the ever continuing problem of getting the players to not just be [[Always Chaotic Evil]] since they are called demons. Some go for [[Blood Knight]] types, some go for manipulative Al-Pachino-From-Devils-Advocate types, and almost all of them miss the point of the game. The expanded power sets (Lore of Violation anyone?) doesn't really help with this.
** The central idea of ''[[Demon: The Fallen (Tabletop Game)|Demon: The Fallen]]'' is the alternate interpretation that Lucifer rebelled [[Satan Is Good|in order to save humanity]] from being condemned to ignorance by an uncaring God. But even that interpretation is subject to a decent amount of doubt. Was it for love? Or was Lucifer simply ambitious? Or did he do it because God ''told'' him to?<br /><br />And there's the ever continuing problem of getting the players to not just be [[Always Chaotic Evil]] since they are called demons. Some go for [[Blood Knight]] types, some go for manipulative Al-Pachino-From-Devils-Advocate types, and almost all of them miss the point of the game. The expanded power sets (Lore of Violation anyone?) doesn't really help with this.
* It happens a lot in ''[[Exalted (Tabletop Game)|Exalted]]''.
* It happens a lot in ''[[Exalted (Tabletop Game)|Exalted]]''.
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** Everyone ''always'' ignores the Lunars. Most of the world sees them as raving, flea-bitten beastmen who squander their lives fighting each other over territory, mates, and bragging rights, when they aren't attempting to burn and destroy civilization to usher in total chaos. This is actually a deliberate ruse to appear less of a threat, so that the Dragonblooded and Sidereals don't try seriously hunting them down like they did the Solars. While many Lunars might fit the stereotypes if you squint real hard (and some even if you don't), for the most part they're a band of misunderstood heroes honestly trying to protect the world from itself and actually fighting to prevent Chaos. There are various factions devoted to protecting the world in the way they think most important, either by preserving (and improving) ancient knowledge, defending nature (and thus the Mother Earth Goddess) from ruination, patrolling the borders of the world to keep Chaos at bay, seeking to reinstate the Solar Exalted as kings of the world (a highly controversial idea among Lunars), or experimenting with isolated human civilizations in an attempt to come up with a viable alternative to the Realm's corrupt brand of civilization. In general, yes, the Lunar Exalted think the current order is corrupt and needs to go -- but they're not so stupid as to do that unless they've got something better to replace it, and they've given a lot of thought about ''how'' to do the replacing without destroying the world in the attempt.<br /><br />In the first edition Lunars book, "raving, flea-bitten beastmen who squander their lives fighting each other over territory, mates, and bragging rights, when they aren't attempting to burn and destroy civilization to usher in total chaos" was exactly correct. It wasn't until the second edition that White Wolf fixed that.<br /><br />In ''Exalted 2.0'', the whole Lunar "let's figure out a way to create a better society" thing is executed in practice by having individual Lunars go out and ''create test societies'' -- which frequently fail to produce positive results. Rather than try to fix the problems that they have caused through their social engineering (such as now-ancient grudges, entire societies on the brink of being press-ganged into demonic armies, and other such [[Doomy Dooms of Doom|dooms]]), Lunars often ''abandon'' said projects, for better or worse.
** Everyone ''always'' ignores the Lunars. Most of the world sees them as raving, flea-bitten beastmen who squander their lives fighting each other over territory, mates, and bragging rights, when they aren't attempting to burn and destroy civilization to usher in total chaos. This is actually a deliberate ruse to appear less of a threat, so that the Dragonblooded and Sidereals don't try seriously hunting them down like they did the Solars. While many Lunars might fit the stereotypes if you squint real hard (and some even if you don't), for the most part they're a band of misunderstood heroes honestly trying to protect the world from itself and actually fighting to prevent Chaos. There are various factions devoted to protecting the world in the way they think most important, either by preserving (and improving) ancient knowledge, defending nature (and thus the Mother Earth Goddess) from ruination, patrolling the borders of the world to keep Chaos at bay, seeking to reinstate the Solar Exalted as kings of the world (a highly controversial idea among Lunars), or experimenting with isolated human civilizations in an attempt to come up with a viable alternative to the Realm's corrupt brand of civilization. In general, yes, the Lunar Exalted think the current order is corrupt and needs to go -- but they're not so stupid as to do that unless they've got something better to replace it, and they've given a lot of thought about ''how'' to do the replacing without destroying the world in the attempt.<br /><br />In the first edition Lunars book, "raving, flea-bitten beastmen who squander their lives fighting each other over territory, mates, and bragging rights, when they aren't attempting to burn and destroy civilization to usher in total chaos" was exactly correct. It wasn't until the second edition that White Wolf fixed that.<br /><br />In ''Exalted 2.0'', the whole Lunar "let's figure out a way to create a better society" thing is executed in practice by having individual Lunars go out and ''create test societies'' -- which frequently fail to produce positive results. Rather than try to fix the problems that they have caused through their social engineering (such as now-ancient grudges, entire societies on the brink of being press-ganged into demonic armies, and other such [[Doomy Dooms of Doom|dooms]]), Lunars often ''abandon'' said projects, for better or worse.
** The [[Our Titans Are Different|Primordials]]: Callous and vindictive psychopaths who treated their minions like dirt and the world and their creations like playthings they would occasionally break for fun? Or the victims of divine usurpers who painted them as far more malicious than they ever were, and now are so angry by this betrayal that they embrace this persona, and arranged it so that history repeats itself?<br /><br />Right now, the answer looks like "It depends on the Primordial." Some were really that awful. Kimbery turns out not to have changed much by becoming a Yozi, and was just as much of a mood-swinging psychotic [[My Beloved Smother]] who alternated between loving the Lintha and her other creations and showering them with her favor and hating them for real or imagined slights against her and tormenting them back when she was a Primordial. The Dragon's Shadow was a treacherous [[Manipulative Bastard]] who is strongly implied to have intentionally orchestrated the Primordial War and whose primary change upon becoming the Ebon Dragon was actually being ''better off than he was as a Primordial'' -- he now embodies the dragon he was once the mere shadow of, and is one of the most powerful and influential of the Yozis. She Who Lives In Her Name destroyed 90% of Creation [[Ret Gone|at the conceptual level]] in what amounted to a temper tantrum upon being defeated and imprisoned, and was against the existence of free will from the start -- The Dragon's Shadow convinced the Divine Tyrant (now Malfeas) that free will was necessary, and he convinced She Who Lives In Her Name to allow its existence.
** The [[Our Titans Are Different|Primordials]]: Callous and vindictive psychopaths who treated their minions like dirt and the world and their creations like playthings they would occasionally break for fun? Or the victims of divine usurpers who painted them as far more malicious than they ever were, and now are so angry by this betrayal that they embrace this persona, and arranged it so that history repeats itself?<br /><br />Right now, the answer looks like "It depends on the Primordial." Some were really that awful. Kimbery turns out not to have changed much by becoming a Yozi, and was just as much of a mood-swinging psychotic [[My Beloved Smother]] who alternated between loving the Lintha and her other creations and showering them with her favor and hating them for real or imagined slights against her and tormenting them back when she was a Primordial. The Dragon's Shadow was a treacherous [[Manipulative Bastard]] who is strongly implied to have intentionally orchestrated the Primordial War and whose primary change upon becoming the Ebon Dragon was actually being ''better off than he was as a Primordial'' -- he now embodies the dragon he was once the mere shadow of, and is one of the most powerful and influential of the Yozis. She Who Lives In Her Name destroyed 90% of Creation [[Ret Gone|at the conceptual level]] in what amounted to a temper tantrum upon being defeated and imprisoned, and was against the existence of free will from the start -- The Dragon's Shadow convinced the Divine Tyrant (now Malfeas) that free will was necessary, and he convinced She Who Lives In Her Name to allow its existence.
** The Neverborn: A bunch of sore losers [[Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum|trying to end an ancient war in a draw]]? Or a bunch of [[Woobie|Woobies]] [[And I Must Scream|trying to end their eternal torment]] [[Woobie Destroyer of Worlds|the only way they know how]]? Or [[Jerkass Woobie|Jerkass Woobies]] combining both?
** The Neverborn: A bunch of sore losers [[Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum|trying to end an ancient war in a draw]]? Or a bunch of [[Woobie|Woobies]] [[And I Must Scream|trying to end their eternal torment]] [[Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds|the only way they know how]]? Or [[Jerkass Woobie|Jerkass Woobies]] combining both?
** Autochthon: Noble champion of the little guy? Or the supergod equivalent of those Columbine kids, murdering his peers because they picked on him?
** Autochthon: Noble champion of the little guy? Or the supergod equivalent of those Columbine kids, murdering his peers because they picked on him?
** [[The Fair Folk]]: Twisted, horrific, soul-sucking monsters from beyond, out to sunder Creation and lay waste to reality? Or angry, displaced natives trying to get back their homelands?
** [[The Fair Folk]]: Twisted, horrific, soul-sucking monsters from beyond, out to sunder Creation and lay waste to reality? Or angry, displaced natives trying to get back their homelands?
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** All of them? [[Grey and Gray Morality|All of the above.]]
** All of them? [[Grey and Gray Morality|All of the above.]]
* ''[[Warhammer 40000]]'' is ''made'' for this, and has room for all possible interpretations of ''every'' side, from the Imperium to Chaos.
* ''[[Warhammer 40000]]'' is ''made'' for this, and has room for all possible interpretations of ''every'' side, from the Imperium to Chaos.
** The Imperium of Man: Are they a [[The Empire|vast, monolithic entity]] of [[Humans Are Bastards|xenophobic]] [[Church Militant|fundamentalists]], or simply a race that has been forced to [[Well Intentioned Extremist|resort to extreme measures]] in order to ensure their very survival in the [[Crapsack World|Grim and Dark]] future?
** The Imperium of Man: Are they a [[The Empire|vast, monolithic entity]] of [[Humans Are Bastards|xenophobic]] [[Church Militant|fundamentalists]], or simply a race that has been forced to [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|resort to extreme measures]] in order to ensure their very survival in the [[Crapsack World|Grim and Dark]] future?
*** The Inquisition: are they, as Ciaphas Cain ('''Hero of the IMPERIUM!''') once calls them, "the Emperor's pet psychopaths" or are they heroic individuals shouldering an impossibly weighty burden and forced to make the cruelest decisions imaginable? Canon is that they can be one or the other; some are evil, some are good.
*** The Inquisition: are they, as Ciaphas Cain ('''Hero of the IMPERIUM!''') once calls them, "the Emperor's pet psychopaths" or are they heroic individuals shouldering an impossibly weighty burden and forced to make the cruelest decisions imaginable? Canon is that they can be one or the other; some are evil, some are good.
*** The Space Marines: psychotic butchers driven solely by hatred for everything nonhuman (and yet barely human themselves), or noble paladins of the Emperor and defenders of all humanity's goodness? Depends upon the chapter.<br />Within chapters: [[Night Lords]]? Psychopath butchers, or self-sacrificing heroes who enforced the Imperium and were rewarded by [[Malicious Slander]]? The Dark Angels? Covering up their primarch's decision to sit out the [[Horus Heresy]] or shamed, attempting to atone for the treachery of their members?
*** The Space Marines: psychotic butchers driven solely by hatred for everything nonhuman (and yet barely human themselves), or noble paladins of the Emperor and defenders of all humanity's goodness? Depends upon the chapter.<br />Within chapters: [[Night Lords]]? Psychopath butchers, or self-sacrificing heroes who enforced the Imperium and were rewarded by [[Malicious Slander]]? The Dark Angels? Covering up their primarch's decision to sit out the [[Horus Heresy]] or shamed, attempting to atone for the treachery of their members?
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** Possibly one of the biggest ones in the whole of 40k is the Emperor. Is he... the guiding light of humanity in the darkness, a weakling corpse barely a shadow of his former self, or simply planning a comeback? Was he an idealistic crusader who wanted to establish an era of hope and strength for humanity, or a mass-murdering tyrant who ruthlessly crushed all opposition and was willing to exterminate entire non-human species in order to establish his own rule? Did he genuinely desire the destruction of religion in an effort to impose his will upon the free thoughts of man, or was it only in order to guide a newly psychic humanity to a future free of chaos? We may never know...
** Possibly one of the biggest ones in the whole of 40k is the Emperor. Is he... the guiding light of humanity in the darkness, a weakling corpse barely a shadow of his former self, or simply planning a comeback? Was he an idealistic crusader who wanted to establish an era of hope and strength for humanity, or a mass-murdering tyrant who ruthlessly crushed all opposition and was willing to exterminate entire non-human species in order to establish his own rule? Did he genuinely desire the destruction of religion in an effort to impose his will upon the free thoughts of man, or was it only in order to guide a newly psychic humanity to a future free of chaos? We may never know...
*** It's unlikely that anyone will get a clear answer. GW uses the Emperor (as a character) very sparingly, and so very little about him is known. Suffice to say, a massive amount of 40k depends on exactly how much the Emperor knew...did he deliberately scatter the Primarchs or was he the victim of a terrible accident? Did he deliberately choose to die at Terra or was it an accident too?...
*** It's unlikely that anyone will get a clear answer. GW uses the Emperor (as a character) very sparingly, and so very little about him is known. Suffice to say, a massive amount of 40k depends on exactly how much the Emperor knew...did he deliberately scatter the Primarchs or was he the victim of a terrible accident? Did he deliberately choose to die at Terra or was it an accident too?...
* Yawgmoth from ''[[Magic the Gathering]]''. A [[Well Intentioned Extremist]] [[Badass Normal]] [[Omnidisciplinary Scientist]] [[Utopia Justifies the Means|who made use of some innovative methods to grant his fellows a better life]] only to be [[Love Makes You Evil|betrayed by the woman he loved]] [[Sealed Evil in A Can|and exiled into a void plane for nine millennia]], thus making his [[Roaring Rampage of Revenge]] [[Woobie Destroyer of Worlds|more than justified]]? Or perhaps an [[Affably Evil]] [[Deadly Doctor]] with [[Munchausen Syndrome|Munchausen by proxy]], [[Machine Worship|who lost his mind]] [[Mechanical Lifeforms|worshipping machines]] and became an [[Evilutionary Biologist]] ([[Anvilicious|remember]], [[Science Is Bad]])?
* Yawgmoth from ''[[Magic the Gathering]]''. A [[Well-Intentioned Extremist]] [[Badass Normal]] [[Omnidisciplinary Scientist]] [[Utopia Justifies the Means|who made use of some innovative methods to grant his fellows a better life]] only to be [[Love Makes You Evil|betrayed by the woman he loved]] [[Sealed Evil in A Can|and exiled into a void plane for nine millennia]], thus making his [[Roaring Rampage of Revenge]] [[Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds|more than justified]]? Or perhaps an [[Affably Evil]] [[Deadly Doctor]] with [[Munchausen Syndrome|Munchausen by proxy]], [[Machine Worship|who lost his mind]] [[Mechanical Lifeforms|worshipping machines]] and became an [[Evilutionary Biologist]] ([[Anvilicious|remember]], [[Science Is Bad]])?
* ''[[Warhammer]]'' isn't immune either.
* ''[[Warhammer]]'' isn't immune either.
** [[The Empire]]: The most advanced, powerful and well-intentioned human society in the world, and the best hope for humanity's survival? Or, well, [[The Empire]]?
** [[The Empire]]: The most advanced, powerful and well-intentioned human society in the world, and the best hope for humanity's survival? Or, well, [[The Empire]]?
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** The problem is, almost none of the villains trapped in Ravenloft are actually major (only Vecna/Kaz and Lord Soth, all long gone from Ravenloft, were bigshots before going there). Dark Powers pick people whom they can make to suffer beautifully, not those really dangerous or really heinous. Snatching a guy who murdered his brother to steal his fiancée out of love, when ''[[Dungeons and Dragons]]'' is chock-full of people whose job description amounts to killing and torturing innocents [[For the Evulz]]? On the other hand, core domains of Ravenloft often are relatively safe places to live, compared to what is normal to DnD-land. Commonly encountering monsters are weak enough to remain in hiding, instead of rampaging and assaulting openly, and there is a comparative shortage of insanely powerful psychopaths on the loose. To be fair, it's not like TSR and later [[Wot C]] could denude their other campaign settings of all their good villains. Also, the Dark Powers may just not have the power to take all the really major villains from all over the multiverse; it's not like the Dark Powers have ever been portrayed as omnipotent, even within Ravenloft. Maybe they're just doing the best they can. Also, the fact that Ravenloft is in some ways ''safer'' for the average person than the typical campaign setting, what with the lack of lots of randomly rampaging monsters, may be further support for the idea that the Dark Powers are good.
** The problem is, almost none of the villains trapped in Ravenloft are actually major (only Vecna/Kaz and Lord Soth, all long gone from Ravenloft, were bigshots before going there). Dark Powers pick people whom they can make to suffer beautifully, not those really dangerous or really heinous. Snatching a guy who murdered his brother to steal his fiancée out of love, when ''[[Dungeons and Dragons]]'' is chock-full of people whose job description amounts to killing and torturing innocents [[For the Evulz]]? On the other hand, core domains of Ravenloft often are relatively safe places to live, compared to what is normal to DnD-land. Commonly encountering monsters are weak enough to remain in hiding, instead of rampaging and assaulting openly, and there is a comparative shortage of insanely powerful psychopaths on the loose. To be fair, it's not like TSR and later [[Wot C]] could denude their other campaign settings of all their good villains. Also, the Dark Powers may just not have the power to take all the really major villains from all over the multiverse; it's not like the Dark Powers have ever been portrayed as omnipotent, even within Ravenloft. Maybe they're just doing the best they can. Also, the fact that Ravenloft is in some ways ''safer'' for the average person than the typical campaign setting, what with the lack of lots of randomly rampaging monsters, may be further support for the idea that the Dark Powers are good.
* [[Battle Tech]] as a whole (At least up until the Jihad) seems to have been an exercise in creating [[AC Is]], all depending on what faction you decide to side with. Except for a few unambiguous [[Kick the Dog|puppy-punters]] like [[The Caligula|Romano Liao]] or [[Royal Brat|Katherine ]][[Evil Prince|Steiner-Davion]], most characters can have several Interpretations.
* [[Battle Tech]] as a whole (At least up until the Jihad) seems to have been an exercise in creating [[AC Is]], all depending on what faction you decide to side with. Except for a few unambiguous [[Kick the Dog|puppy-punters]] like [[The Caligula|Romano Liao]] or [[Royal Brat|Katherine ]][[Evil Prince|Steiner-Davion]], most characters can have several Interpretations.
** Hanse Davion: [[Magnificent Bastard]] who [[Incredibly Lame Pun|outfoxed]] his hidebound or deranged opponents, or [[Mary Sue]] who only got by on [[Creators Pet|writer's fiat]]? His son, Victor: [[The Napoleon|Midget who can't possibly live up to his father's legacy]] or skilled warrior hobbled by politics and the above-mentioned evil sister?
** Hanse Davion: [[Magnificent Bastard]] who [[Incredibly Lame Pun|outfoxed]] his hidebound or deranged opponents, or [[Mary Sue]] who only got by on [[Creator's Pet|writer's fiat]]? His son, Victor: [[The Napoleon|Midget who can't possibly live up to his father's legacy]] or skilled warrior hobbled by politics and the above-mentioned evil sister?
** The Clans: [[Proud Warrior Race Guy|Proud Warrior Race Guys]] who deserve to lead Humanity, or [[Lawful Stupid]] [[Mary Sue|Mary Sues]] with [[The Munchkin|way too much power]]?
** The Clans: [[Proud Warrior Race Guy|Proud Warrior Race Guys]] who deserve to lead Humanity, or [[Lawful Stupid]] [[Mary Sue|Mary Sues]] with [[The Munchkin|way too much power]]?
** Sun-Tzu Liao: [[Magnificent Bastard]] who is trying to restore a fallen nation or [[Manipulative Bastard]] who only got by on the same kind of fiat that decriers attributed to Hanse Davion?
** Sun-Tzu Liao: [[Magnificent Bastard]] who is trying to restore a fallen nation or [[Manipulative Bastard]] who only got by on the same kind of fiat that decriers attributed to Hanse Davion?
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