Avatar (film)/Headscratchers/RDA: Difference between revisions
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A ''Note for Tropers:'' For the sake of keeping this page halfway concise, please read other people's posts before adding your own. We only need the one post about wiping out the Na'vi, people. Thank you.
[[Avatar (
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== So why do the RDA go through the GIANT FRICKING BLACKOUT FIELD that allows only LoS firing? ==
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* but the flux has to have a vertical limit to it's effect, It's not a planetary effect. and they have multiple computers for calculating reentry and landing vectors, while a [[WW 2]] bomb sight is a downward facing optical lens. you have a base full of computers, pilots, and materials and NO ONE can calculate the drop angle of a cube? or how about a dive from outside the flux field, reaching the tree valley in seconds, giving you time to "unload" before the banshees can react to your arrival? or does the flux affect altimeters and gyroscopes 'somehow'. The mountains have to be relatively stationary or they'd fall once the moved from the magnetic field, so you know where they'd be and could plot around them.
** Considering the fact that it's a moon's magnetic field, the vertical height would go above the maximum height of the helicopters. If you think [[WW 2]] bomb sights were accurate (or that shuttles carry them) then you are honestly being intentionally obtuse. A dive 'in seconds' would turn the shuttle into burning debris not to mention the simple fact that it is not an atmospheric aircraft. It is not designed to make dives, it has no provision for doing anything within one (I doubt someone like you would realise, but in a dive, an aircraft is generally pitched downwards), and if it was attempted, its engine configuration would make one completely unrecoverable.
** No doubt the techies at Hell's Gate crunched the numbers on drop times with some basic physics, but the bomb dropping mechanism is ''two guys pushing a large crate off a ramp''. There's no mechanical precision. And when you consider that, lower altitudes is better since the window of opportunity is much longer in proportion. Additionally, having the Valkyrie do a steep dive and then have those two guys push said crate out of the cargo bay as the craft starts breaking upwards is just wishful thinking.
** Watch the entry the shuttle does from the ISV, a steep decent that slows the craft and ends in a hover above the base. Take that same maneuver and plot it so it ends hovering over the tree. they already break the laws of physics by having the shuttle hold enough fuel to do slow hovering flight 'somehow' given how horribly inefficient vtol aircraft are at that.
*** An atmospheric entry versus a low altitude dive? [[You Fail Physics Forever]]. The transition from orbital flight to hover happens over ''SEVERAL MILES'' at low speed in a clear area. Indeed, the fact that the hover is only at low altitudes perfectly proves your own point, that VTOL is an inefficient mode of travel, being far more effective closer to the ground, and therefore you have completely disproved your own point.
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*** Also incorrect.
*** According to the movie's wiki, it is some sort of room-temperature super-conductor. So, given that the planet-tree-brain-thing was already compared to a computer network, it... sort of makes sense that unobtainium might be involved in some way? Either it's an ingredient in those biological wires that connect everything (or at least the ones in the main "nodes"), or maybe it's the remains of previously dead bio-wires, from long-gone trees...
**** I like to think that the network of interconnected flora is somehow [[Nausicaa of the Valley of
***** It was created in the conditions during the formation of the solar system - the presence of it under one specific Hometree is coincidental. There IS a plant that [http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Anemonid removes metals from the soil], which is being investigated for use on Earth in polluted areas, but it is unrelated to the network specifically.
* My question is more, why didn't they make a deal to dig under the land, but not bother the surface at all? I.E. go "we'll make a facility here, with an entrance to a long tunnel leading under the ground to the deposit we want. We mine underneath, are careful to avoid the roots, and get the minerals we want without bothering you. You can even help us out a bit, if you want and we can figure out a way to pay you.". Sure it might be a little more expensive, but they won't have to deal with kicking out the natives.
** The humans don't have anything that is needed in the first place.
** Shaft mining isn't as pragmatic as strip mining. Especially when your mining equipment comes from a source that is a few light-years away and transportation costs several billion dollars for each piece of equipment.
== The humans leaving. ==
* I was surprised the Na'vi could even feel hopeful at all when the humans left, let alone feel they had won. It's not like there isn't tonnes of unobtanium on the planet any more - so there's nothing stopping the humans returning. And that's just more people from the mining company. When earth gets news of Colonel Miles Quaritch's [[Last Stand]] against [[The Savage Indian|thousands of vicious blue aliens]] led by [[The Mole]], I don't think they'll be happy. So now it won't be a PR problem when they [[Kill It
** Hell's Gate is controlled by Na'vi and scientists now. You send the REAL story back to Earth (plenty of proof), it arrives ahead of the ~0.7C ISV, the RDA don't know to suppress it in time, the real story gets out. Also, for that matter, the scientists therefore control the only safe landing zone, in addition to a large amount of anti-aircraft weaponry. Not to mention the fact that the RDA broke the terms of their contract in numerous ways and may even be in danger of losing it as a result. Not to mention the astronomical cost of travel to Pandora, returning empty-handed (and with all the marines dead and massive equipment losses, at that) is likely to cost them an extreme amount both in money and reputation.
** Because the movie is a huge wish-fulfillment fantasy, because it takes long time and massive resources to even travel to Pandora and because the company broke a large number of international treaties in the process of waging a private war against the Na'vi, and is probably up to its ears in legal trouble and debts.
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* $20m/kilo? I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Let's face it, that's what's going to happen. Tell you what, we'll flatten ''this'' half for our Unobtanium, and you can have ''that'' half for your miracle cures, especially since without our half, you won't be able to get here for your half. I really doubt any Earth government is really going to care about some blue catgirls billions of miles away if that's what it takes to keep the world running. Humans will return, and this time, they won't bother landing until everything is dead.
** [[Idiot Ball|Congratulations, you just destroyed the unobtainium]]. Anyway, as mentioned above, the RDA are limited in what weapons they HAVE and can use.
** Yeah, except they were already blowing countless billions on the Avatar program to avoid precisely that issue. PR issues are preventing them from doing that in the first place, and I don't think a PR problem that's so severe that it requires that kind of expenditure on a world that far away to mollify is going to go away so easily. If the RDA is spending that much money on a program that far away in an effort to keep the morality hounds back on Earth at bay, just imagine how far up their asses the objectors have to be. I'm imagining some horrific fusion of Greenpeace and [[Warhammer
*** Yeah, they spent billions of dollars on the Avatar program, and it failed utterly. With that in mind, they would certainly come back and obliterate the Na'vi from orbit. And, seeing as how they would then be to soul custodians of a multi-multi-multi-multi trillion dollar planet that is located 7 years away from any witnesses and that they would control the soul means of traveling to that planet, they'd more than likely get away Scott-free.
**** Again, hampered by the fact that they physically can't. Why do you think they were trying to maintain good relation wit ht the Na'vi? Becasue they weren't able to use any stronger weapons.
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* And now to something completely different. How many humans actually left at the end of the movie and how many remained? The official pedia says each ship can carry only 200 people, since it doesn't have cryo pods for more. We have no clue how many soldiers there were in Hell's Gate how many of them survived. Also did all soldiers left or did some remain in order to protect the base from aggressive wildlife? What happens to the mining workers?
** The defences are mostly automated. 200 people would be enough once all/most of the marines died (you can see two going into the shuttle), especially when you consider that all/most of the scientists and avatars stayed.
* All the infrastructure is destroyed or in enemy hands. Meaning the have to start from scratch. But since their equipment including their military equipment is manufactured on Pandora, they are vulnerable after the landing until they build fortifications and heavy weapons. Because the Navi are air mobile, they can communicate information about the humans to all other Navi. Therefore all the Navi should know about the Humans and should know to attack as soon as possible, before they can entrench themselves. (This was not known to the Navi after the first landing) Therefore the second landing has to be as large as possible in order to survive. They need to collect all their spaceships. The ships in transit cant turn around. They have to go to Pandora collect fuel and return to earth. That takes maybe 16.4 years form the end of the movie (4.4 years to learn about the event and stop sending ships plus 2 times 6 years for the transit.). Transporting the new garrison takes 6 years. You would not want to take no mining equipment, because that means you have less military stuff. Therefore another 12 years before any miners show up on Pandora. And another 6 years to return the first ore to earth. That are 40.4 years from the end of the film to make any new profit simply due to travel time. And I did not calculate any delays in orbit. Add some point RDA is going to go bankrupt, there will be government hearings and protesting environmentalist delaying the whole thing further. At any point during all this some guy in a shed might develop an alternative to Unobtainium or the Navi might manage to overrun the garrison. This would mean I would lose my investment. Personally I rather Invest in superconductor research.
** Also, each ISV has two shuttles and cargo capacity similar to maybe an An-225. That means that even if you somehow took fully assembled equipment from Earth, you'd have maybe 12-14 ampsuits OR 2 scorpions, with two shuttles to bring them down (and assemble them on the ground) - if they somehow safely land somewhere with no cover, no protection, no equipment. Going near Hell's Gate will get them blown out of the air even before the Na'vi could destroy the shuttle, and the scientists can starve the [[IS Vs]] of the fuel they need to return if they want.
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* Read my rant under "Human Actions Bug Me". We clearly haven't learn anything since we're still doing that kind of things
* Seemed to me like they ''did'' learn from history. At some point someone probably sat down and talked things out:
{{quote|
* The humans should have tried turning this around before they even started mining; give the Na'vi a human history book, tell them a few bedtime stories about the Native Americans, Australian Aborigines, and Western Imperialism in general, and let them know how tenacious humans can be when they NEED (or even simply WANT) something. Consider two pearls of historic wisdom that would make the Na'vi think twice before saying no:
{{quote|
'''Mark Twain:''' History teaches us that whenever a weak and ignorant people possess a thing which a strong and enlightened people want, it must be yielded up peaceably. }}
** Good luck teaching the Na'vi how to read English when they don't have a written language of their own.
*** Telling them orally could be effective enough...or even showing a few good movies on such subjects (dubbed in Na'vi of course). If humans follow historical precedent (provided by the Boxer Rebellion and the Zulu Wars), they WILL be back, they WILL come in force, and they WON'T ask nicely this time. This is a [[James Cameron]] film we're talking about, after all, so [[Sequel Escalation|that could be exactly what he has in mind]] (Illustrated rather humorously [https://web.archive.org/web/20100209075906/http://akreon.deviantart.com/art/Avatar-anti-Na-vi-stamp-152767345 here]). How else could they top the first one?
**** I have faith in Cameron that he'll deliver a good movie without stretching the "''They're back, but BETTER!''" theme too far. He did mention something about undersea exploration anyways.
*** I doubt the Na'vi would even listen to the humans since the conflict is already going. And besides that, they always have [[Gaia's Vengeance]] on their side, so the Na'vi will win in almost all situations. I don't think the ISV has enough cargo/passenger space to hold enough people and equipment for a proper strike force that would overcome the superfauna bum-rush.
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**** Point taken, but still, it looks better than what actually happened in the movie. In any case, how much mining was RDA actually doing before the attack? Didn't see that many miners around.
**** There's that one brief shot during the Valkyrie's descent to Hell's Gate where you see a massive strip mine, complete with monstrous loaders and the biggest Bucket Wheel Excavator I've seen. So there's obviously been some progress over the years.
* I got a scenario for you: there's this Company, this big powerful Company; they found this place with important deposits of a very valuable mineral, but there's a forest with an impressive variety of animal and plant life on top of the mineral as well as a settlement of natives there. Now in order to acquire the mineral the Company has to destroy the forest and run the natives out of their homes; will it endanger their health or even lives? Yes. Will it leave ANY benefit to the natives? No. Does the Company goes trough with it? Of course! Why should the Company care about these people? They're not their people. Now what
** It should be remembered that we Humans have done some pretty nasty things [[wikipedia:United Fruit Company#History in Central America|for Bananas.]]
Now, if this is happening in Latin America '''NOW''', what makes you think that they wouldn't do the same to Aliens in the Future?
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*** The dialoged indicates that they thought of the tree as a religious sight; they just decided to bomb it anyway because of the massing army
*** Q seemed to assume that the attack on Hometree would end hostilities (in so far as they'd loose the will to fight and go somewhere else). This didn't happen and he's now instigated a war (Jake starts uniting tribes). Q needs to stop this before it becomes an army he can't handle so he attacks the only other target of opportunity he knows about that would possibly cause demoralization (Tree of Souls). He can't attack the army because while he knows where they are, they can move faster than his forces can with less limitation (gas for starters, and magic mountains). To be fair, attacking a core religious site is still a silly idea since it's as likely to increase hostilities as it is to defuse them.
**** True, it ''is'' a coin flip, but 50% odds of working is still 50% better than zero... which are the odds Quaritch is facing if he tries to either attack the entire Na'vi army, or if he just sits and waits for them to start besieging him.
== Why are there no representatives from other countries aboard this mission? ==
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** Or American cultural dominance succeded beyond anyone's wildest fears/expectations/hopes.
* All this can be inferred from the few people with actual speaking parts?
** Its not just that there are no asian appearing people nor anyone who is clearly of any ethnicity other than a few tokens.
*** Based on the few non-main characters that actually DO appear? Not to mention that they are the ones employed by an AMERICAN company.
** We don't know that for sure. However, seeing as how in the Avatar-verse most of Earth's nations are bankrupt and run by mega-corporations like the RDA, and that the US historically has been a leader in commerce and space exploration, it's likely that most of the humans on Pandora could have been American.
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**** Wow. Hilarious post, 1st Reply. First you go from "Humans aren't allowed on Pandora unless the Na'Vi allow them," which rings distinctly of the git-'r-done xenophobia that one would think you'd oppose, and then you outright say "You're probably American, and thus are a thieving, genocidal monster." Trying to have your cake and eat it, are we? Besides, could you show me where, for instance, ''all'' the Marines are shown to be the [[Sociopathic Soldier]] stereotype you claim them to be?
***** Nobody said humans weren't allowed on Pandora, just that if they are there, then they have to abide by conditions the Na'vi give them, the same as anywhere on Earth within humans (you're not the first marine fan with that double standard). I already said that I stereotyped you there (but for the record, you certainly project the stereotypical image). As for all the marines, even today then if someone is ordered to commit a war crime, they are supposed to refuse (but often don't).
** Seeing how those aliens weren't humans I fail to see where they committed any war crimes since I haven't heard anything about alien being included in the Geneva convention.
*** Which would be a prime example of obeying the letter and utterly ignoring the intent of the convention.
*** I'm pretty sure that the Geneva convention wasn't built to translate to conflict with aliens. There's a reason it had to be signed by various world nations. Signing it was an indicator that you were going to follow it, and that you would in turn be treated by its standards. Doing the latter when your foe is decidedly not doing the former is entirely up to the discrepancy of the faction in question.
**** Considering that everyone does abide by it, then an extension to sentient beings in general is highly plausible, and indeed, yet again you ignore the entire contract that allows the RDA to be there in the first place - there are international agreements against space military even today. Again, not only is it ignoring the entire purpose, but they are on someone else's home, so they are bound by whatever conditions they want to set on them.
* Death is death, doesn't really matter how you die. Also, those same human soldiers were involved in killing Na'vi and destroying their home.
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** [[Evil Is Cool]], dude...
* [[Face Palm]]. ''The movie does not have a [[Science Is Bad]]'' aesop. Science and technology A) are at the heart of the movie itself and are what facilitate Jake's interaction with the Na'vi, and B) the Na'vi get their ''asses'' kicked by a smaller force of troops equipped with more technologically advanced weaponry! The movie's hamhanded, inyourface anvil-dropping aesopy-aesop is to respect the environment and don't misuse technology.
** Without Pandora's [[Unobtainium]] mines interstellar travel isn't economically viable or even ''physically possible'', meaning '''there will be no more interstellar travel in that universe''' because all the unobtainium on Pandora is part of Pandora's [[Gaia's Vengeance|planetary brain]]. '''''Aesop- Humans no go space because we just hurt teh Space Indians nd teh Space Gaia.''''' Screw Science Judas Cameron, I want a [[John Ringo]] movie - preferably ''[[
*** Wow, no. If interstellar travel was ''only'' physically possible with Pandora's unobtainium, then ''how the hell did they get to Pandora in the first place''? Unobtainium just makes it easier and cheaper. It's still perfectly possible or else they never would have made it there to find the stuff.
**** It's a high temperature superconductor. We have more fragile, more expensive low temperature superconductors already. Superconductors are used to contain matter antimatter reactions, which power the spaceships.
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** One of the serious issues that the RDA has to deal with is not only simply defending their perimeter, but the fact that they're out there for a reason: to mine the unobtanium. If they pull everyone back, circle the wagons, and go into full-on siege mode, they're going to be faced with the fact that they're not bringing in any more ore, which means dramatically reduced profit margins and increased costs. They won't be able to make a profit and the entire mining operation falls apart once the investors realize they can't secure their mining convoys. If the Na'vi place Hell's Gate under siege, then it's game over, even if they don't set a single step within the firing range of the RDA's guns.
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