Avatar (film)/Headscratchers/Technology: Difference between revisions
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== If technology has progressed THAT FAR by the 2150's or so... ==
Cloned half-human-half-Na'vi bodies. In fully no-glitches-anywhere-ly mind-mapped linkups, 24-7, for as long as you don't need to unplug and feed your human body. So why the hell is Jake PARALYZED IN A WHEELCHAIR?
* Because [[Humans Are
** Because apparently, one cannot get medical services without universal health-care [/sarcasm]. Simple fact is that the economic cost of medical treatments falls rapidly after their introduction, mainstreaming and continual refinement. Same applies with any technology in an environment of competition. But of course, that simple empirical fact gets in the way of the anvils that James Cameron is intent on dropping on the readers head, so to hell with economic reality!
**** No one is mentioning the real reason. The cost to create an avatar, in fluff, is stated to be 5 billion dollars. If we assume Obamacare was completely devoted to this, every ten years 200 people could be rebodied. The author has made it absurdly expensive. The lack of spine repair might be a challenge to the lack of universal healthcare, although soldiers do have universal healthcare, so it would be a stupid point if he was making it.
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*** Is the fabrication plant an [[Nano Factory]]? If so, there is no reason why they can't have the state of the art stuff, if the elements are available. If not, why not - it's certainly simpler than creating a sustainable method of transportation between star systems.
*** Because their are hard limits to what it can manufacture. It can make fairly simple things, but advanced computer chips and so forth need to be imported from earth.
** Why not have the guns use caseless ammunition? Considering it featured in ''[[Alien
*** Same reason caseless ammunition weapons aren't used today. The ammo tends to be volatile and may even cook off after prolonged firing. There's also a bunch of other flaws with caseless ammo that tends to be not safe for the user, so it's worth it to spend a few bucks more for extra metal ore for the bullet cases so your guy doesn't kill himself/someone else by accident.
*** I'm just saying it's strange that more 'science ficton-y' weaponry appeared in the older movie and not the newer one.
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*** It's the latter, and it has a highly complicated structure. Your logic is on par with "oil can't be economically synthesised, so it shouldn't exist".
*** And if it is the former, synthesizing it in Sol system is only possible if it is not much heavier than the heaviest actinides. Otherwise, the lack of sufficiently stable precursor atoms will make synthesis impossible. In fact, that is the major barrier to the discovery of so-called super-heavy elements.
** See objection for how long we've been mashing our collective head against
*** Considering the Earth has a population of 20 billion, I don't think the intrinsic moral value of a human matters much anymore to deem a high death rate as a deterrant from exploiting Pandora. Unobtanium had uses besides making interstellar travel a lot simpler and is worth a ton back on Earth because of this, which is why the RDA were so motivated to mine all of it.
** It would have worked better if they setup a self-sustaining colony in Pandora's system and built the expensive suff in system so they didn't need to ship it. They could have done it in less time and for less money than the film's approach. In this scenario Pandora would be the hub of interstellar travel and Earth would be the capital and scientific/cutural center of the human space empire. Of course that implies humans plan on taking over Pandora's system entirely, which means the Navi are dead no matter what happens. But if we did things logically then Cameron couldn't have his aseops.
*** Kind of hate to jump on the [[All There in the Manual]] bandwagon but [https://web.archive.org/web/20100920230956/http://www.pandorapedia.com/doku.php/isv_venture_star pandorapedia] states that Pandora bound cargo includes a type of manufacturing plant, ''each trip'', so humans are trying to get there it just hasn't happened yet.
*** Those auto-factories produce the basic equipement with lithography. I was talking about the parts for the dragon gunship and shuttles that have to be imported. They should have set up space habitats around pandora so and encouraged the employees to settle in the system. That way the have a permanent population base to draw from and they can develope more industrial production. The have antimatter geneating particial accelerators in the system to fuel their ships so they must have at least a few hundred perminent space employees.
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== "Unobtanium" is a really silly name ==
I just had to say that.
* From the backstory in the various wikis, 'unobtainium' was the name given to a theoretical high-temperature superconductor material as a label for researchers blue-skying ideas they had no solution for
** Just to add, [[Unobtanium|we have it too]].
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*** There's no external source fuel for the grenade to detonate, so besides it being an exhaust vent, the damage would have hardly been different elsewhere on the shuttle.
*** And finally, the scene where Jake grabs a sidewinder missile from the side of the Dragon, and tosses it into a nearby propeller. Yeah. Whirring knives can cause explosions now.
**** Yes, because missiles ''never'' carry combustible fuel or explosive warheads. And while the burning fuel and warhead may create an impressive fireball, the little quirks of the material may cause unexpected
*** The detonators on the pallets were shown being activated before the shuttle fall down go boom. It's entirely possible something jarred one of the two in the right way to make it go off which would have taken the other with it in a sympathetic explosion as close as they were shown, with only a thin layer of squished marine between them. And it's not implausible that the grenades damaged the hydraulic systems working the engines' mounts so they couldn't recover as the pressure sprays out... or they were surprised and didn't have time to recover it, or the huge, flat, square object that wasn't moving fast enough for aerodynamic lift really, really needed all four engines working to keep it from going flop-blam. Even if the explosives themselves didn't do much damage, ''birds'' which are much squishier than what the grenade casings were likely made out of have been known to wreck jet engines. And while it's not really likely the missile's explosives went off, what would have happened if whatever fuel it used didn't like being smacked around? You can sit in the middle of a puddle of nitromethane with a birthday cake and sing till you get bored, but if you were to hit the puddle with a hammer it'd blow your arm off. (according to a show on the dragsters that use it for fuel, a long time ago.)
*** I always thought the explosives on the pallets used a detonator with a timer, which was activated by one of the marines in the loading bay. That would be logical, because mining explosives rarely use impact detonators.
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== So, Why no Attempt at Unobtanium Synthesis? ==
Humans have the demonstrable ability to manufacture antimater in sufficient quantities to decelerate ships from near the speed of light on a fairly regular basis. As previously mentioned on this page, the sheer amount of energy required to do so massively exceeds that currently used by the sum of every civilization on earth in a day. Vis, humanity has the ability to produce massive amounts of energy relatively trivially. What's stopping them from simply analyzing the chemical structure of Unobtanium and then using their vast, quasi-unlimited power resources to ''make some?'' Cost shouldn't be an
* [[All There in the Manual]]: "Unlike the fragile crystals of human-created superconducting compounds, the substance found on Pandora was a stable quasi-crystal with its atoms arranged in a never-repeating but orderly pattern with fivefold symmetry. This structure is not only mechanically rugged but also has microscopic voids in the quasicrystalline structure that contains magnetic flux lines." Also, "Researchers theorize that billions of years ago, when the planets and satellites were condensing from the primordial stellar nebula, a Mars-sized planetesimal may have crashed into the still-molten Pandora. The moon's nickel-iron core was disrupted. The high temperatures and pressures produced in the collision '''''far exceeded anything wrought by human technology'''''. These forces interacted with Polyphemus's intense magnetic field and created conditions suitable for the production of this unique substance."
** I also think the word '''[[Unobtanium]]''' might be a ''clue'' that it can't be synthesized.
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Since surface damage isn't a concern when you are mining,multiple strikes would have taken care of Tree of Life and any stragglers left w/o causing RDA to have to expend any manpower.
4) Umm...since they have access to spacecraft,why wouldn't they have used sub-orbital (or even orbital) bombing or missile strikes? Hell...use the shuttle on auto-pilot to strike area at a high rate of speed. That way you don't have to use explosives and you can still do the job.
* 1) Assuming Hell's Gate is completely inhabited with robots and nothing else, what happens when a single robot malfunctions or is destroyed by Na'vi aggression? Other robots depending on that single robot's actions are consequentially screwed, and everything will fall apart.
2) Already said on this page: Saying we have X tech in the future but not Y tech is a toss-up. We don't know what directions the development of technology will take in the future.
3) Missiles that the humans wouldn't have. Hell's Gate is a mining outpost, not a military forward operations base.
** I did try to show the arguments still outstanding only and skip everything else already covered (sidenote - requiring sensible answers to questions does not mean I like space marines or found this movie challenging to my worldview - I honestly thought [[Battle for Terra]] was better), but I may have missed a few. My apologies, my intent was less to strawman and more to bring the issue back to basics and away from details - without retyping every aspect of an already long-winded discussion. If the point(s) missed are still important to the question, please repeat them and I'll make sure to address them properly. That said, thank you, I consider this a more plausible reason. No iron available on the planet seems unusual (unless it was changed into unobtanium by the planet-collision, which would actually be [[Fridge Brilliance]]), but it would explain a whole lot about the human-issues on the planet; at very least it's harder to set up an off-world mine on an asteroid. The idea that they were planning on things but hadn't got to that point yet is a fair explanation of why automation and other devices aren't currently in place, certainly if they were essentially expecting to pay the Na'vi in shiny beads in the interim period. Seriously though - why the heck do they get away with flamethrowers (banned by international treaty) and not Alien Pepper spray (given to Na'vi over the age of 70)? "Because not using non-lethal force fits the [[Humans Are Bastards]] theme of the movie and makes for a better antagonist"?▼
4) Same point as above. The RDA is a business, not a military force. Any company doesn't just casually get WMDs and use them. And then there's a treaty they had with the UN and ICA that bans all substantial military force/weaponry for a perpetual monopoly on Pandora.
* To summarise the issue after long discussions concerning viability, practicality and economic considerations:
1: Why no robots? Automation is incredibly common and important in hostile environments, and pretty much necessary to lower long term costs.
2: Why aren't there more advanced weapons? Or weapons that actually do their job?
They're using guns that are out of date, badly suited to the tasks at hand, and failing to use weapons that would work better that are equally cheap and far more effective. Even if advanced mag-gun technology cannot be used, existing tech that would work better (but look less cool), and offer non-lethal alternatives of native suppression.
3 & 4: Why were no missiles (of any variant, long discussions concerning the viability and practicality aside, they had time to make them and motive to use them regardless of PR concerns), or orbital bombardment? I assume "just didn't think of it" still applies.
5: Why no advanced manufacturing methods? Again, necessary to cut long term costs.
Conclusion: Humanity's technological advancements weren't demonstrated in a convincing, consistent manner, were shown in ways that didn't place full consideration on the ramifications of available technology and were consistently ignored.
** I'm pretty certain your 'overall explanations' delved into [[The War On Straw|strawman arguments]] at some point, since some of your "argument against" statements didn't actually address what I posted earlier. Can't speak for the other guy though.
There is no mention of iron or hematite being present on Pandora. The mine and the refinery in Hell's Gate were solely designed for acquiring/processing unobtanium. What other potentially 'useful' metals that Pandora had to offer besides unobtanium has never been stated. The first interstellar expedition to Pandora happened in 2129 - that's 25 years before the events of the film. Considering the long travel times to and from Pandora, These 25 years would still be in the "HOLY SHIT WE DISCOVERED A NEW PLANET WHAT DO WE DO!?" phase, so a lot of planning would for short-term comparatively (no longer than a century). Automation ''does'' exist in Pandora (see: those bulldozers that tore apart the Tree of Voices), but is likely to be limited to vehicles like that.
When the RDA first got their hands on the monopoly, they were planning for an extremely cost-effective method of mining - recruit the natives for the operation, and use avatars to be their supervisors. After all, the natives thrived in an environment extremely toxic/deadly to humans and you wouldn't have to dole out wads of cash to send disposable humans or construction materials. You'd still need to send people to manage other areas of the base, but that's beside the point. I'm not certain about the RDA's train of thought when they created this plan, since it hinged pretty heavily on the natives cooperating, but it's likely hubris played a part ("lol, we'll just give 'em some of our cool stuff to show we're more awesome and they need to comply"), considering company already outranked most of the world's nations in influence and power. Of course, the natives refused to comply and they didn't accept negotiations.
The RDA was now in a tough spot: they're missing the cheap and effective workforce they had been hoping for. So what now? Nothing else to do but to continue with the mining. Yeah, they're probably losing a ton of money due to worker mortality rates and destroyed equipment, but it's all they have until they figure out how to re-purpose every single employee on the base (or send a large chunk of them home without having to build a new ISV with extra cargo space) and create a system that requires less money. Who knows, automation might have been primary on the base given another decade or two.
The issue with public relations is bigger than you imagine. There are ''constantly'' thousands (if not millions) of protesters seriously pissed off at the company for their actions on Pandora. Almost all of them would be saying something along the lines of "You wanna make ''that'' planet look like our piece of crap?!", considering the constant attention the media pays to the planet. The RDA was already walking on thin ice, and any serious screwup (may it be attacking the native population or clear-cutting taken to serious levels) would have caused riots. It's not as simple as "oh, the RDA will get negative press if they use a space-laser on the Tree of Souls", it's that they already have bad press and any more would take things over the top. Hell, the Avatar Program was changed into a PR stunt, so the RDA was willing to risk $5 billion assets just to make people on Earth shut up.
▲** I did try to show the arguments still outstanding only and skip everything else already covered (sidenote - requiring sensible answers to questions does not mean I like space marines or found this movie challenging to my worldview - I honestly thought [[Battle for Terra]] was better), but I may have missed a few. My apologies, my intent was less to strawman and more to bring the issue back to basics and away from details - without retyping every aspect of an already long-winded discussion. If the point(s) missed are still important to the question, please repeat them and I'll make sure to address them properly. That said, thank you, I consider this a more plausible reason. No iron available on the planet seems unusual (unless it was changed into unobtanium by the planet-collision, which would actually be [[Fridge Brilliance]]), but it would explain a whole lot about the human-issues on the planet; at very least it's harder to set up an off-world mine on an asteroid. The idea that they were planning on things but hadn't got to that point yet is a fair explanation of why automation and other devices aren't currently in place, certainly if they were essentially expecting to pay the Na'vi in shiny beads in the interim period. Seriously though - why the heck do they get away with flamethrowers (banned by international treaty) and not Alien Pepper spray (given to Na'vi over the age of 70)? "Because not using non-lethal force fits the [[Humans Are
** The usage of flamethrowers is a much more legit JBM for your part. Supplementary canon material states that it's used for "clearing flora and terrorizing Na'vi warriors", but I'm not sure how an uncontrolled forest fire have any benefit for clearing out areas, unless the RDA really stopped caring about collateral damage halfway during their stay on the planet when they realized just how hostile the environment was. The flamethrower serves more as a deterrent than an actual offensive weapon, due to its lack of range. As for the "Na'vi pepper spray", they did use tear gas (or some sort of gas) prior to firing incendiaries on Hometree. Normal, hand-held canisters of pepper spray would probably lack the range to reach the face of a Na'vi, not to mention the Na'vi themselves specialize in guerrilla warfare and ambushes - they won't be charging at you on a direhorse, they'll be putting two arrows through your chest from 70 feet away without a sound.
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*** In fact, Quaritch doesn't just say he wants to send Jake out on "the next shuttle," he explicitly says Jake is leaving ''tomorrow'', so yes, they had one ready to go.
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