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******* as far as the minbari were concerned the humans could see the minbari's weapons and that they weren't aiming. so it's like putting your hidden gun out on the table, without bullets. you show that you aren't trying to hide anything.
******* Yes, thats what the Minbari saw it but the humans having no idea that the guns wherent locked on them and that they wherent armed to fire due to the Minbari also blocking their scans the scans. To the Humans it was more like showing you had a gun but never indicating the safety was on or even if you werent pointing your gun at them from under the table.
****** Minbari ships mount guns on the bow. They were pointing their ships directly at the human fleet. Ergo, their guns were aimed at the human fleet. This isn't difficult to understand.<br /><br />For that matter, the naval tradition you describe is ''itself'' a stupid and irresponsible tradition. It only makes sense among cultures who already know about this absurd practice. The only reason it never resulted in a tragic misunderstanding with an unfamiliar culture is pure blind luck. Bottom line: Greeting a completely unknown ship from a completely unknown civilization by ''POINTING GUNS AT THEM'' is a ''pants-on-head retarded idea''. The fact that it resulted in a near-genocide is all the evidence necessary to prove that it's a stupid idea. Hell, Ducat even tried to order the gunports closed at the last minute because he ''knew'' that it was a stupid tradition that would lead to a misunderstanding.
 
** Huh. You know, the Centauri are very found of [[Xanatos Gambit|Xanatos Gambits]]. Maybe they were hoping this would happen, and not only did they not tell them about the gunports, but warned them that the Minbari were unpredictable and warlike. And recommended an especially trigger-happy captain for [[First Contact]], etc. All part of a plan to get rid of a powerful leader and divert the Minbari's attention so they could empire-build.▼
For that matter, the naval tradition you describe is ''itself'' a stupid and irresponsible tradition. It only makes sense among cultures who already know about this absurd practice. The only reason it never resulted in a tragic misunderstanding with an unfamiliar culture is pure blind luck. Bottom line: Greeting a completely unknown ship from a completely unknown civilization by ''POINTING GUNS AT THEM'' is a ''pants-on-head retarded idea''. The fact that it resulted in a near-genocide is all the evidence necessary to prove that it's a stupid idea. Hell, Ducat even tried to order the gunports closed at the last minute because he ''knew'' that it was a stupid tradition that would lead to a misunderstanding.
▲** Huh. You know, the Centauri are very found of [[Xanatos Gambit|Xanatos Gambits]]s. Maybe they were hoping this would happen, and not only did they not tell them about the gunports, but warned them that the Minbari were unpredictable and warlike. And recommended an especially trigger-happy captain for [[First Contact]], etc. All part of a plan to get rid of a powerful leader and divert the Minbari's attention so they could empire-build.
** The Commander of the Earthforce expedition panicked when he was told that the Minbari ship had its gunports open. There is also the likelyhood that no one mentioned it to him or he just didn't read whatever briefing they gave thouroughly enough.
*** It is even simpler than all this. The Centauri never thought that it would be a problem. Why? It was only a problem for the humans because of the interference the Minbari scanners caused with the human systems. It was sheer bad luck that anything came of it, we have no reason to assume that Centari vessels would not be able to detect the weapon status like the humans did.
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*** But military metaphors lean toward the retro. Humans had ten thousand years or more experience fighting on Earth and only about two hundred years fighting in space.
*** If the Narn didn't have it, then how come their ships had no revolving portions? They clearly had gravity in them. It's a quite perplexing question, considering that during the war it would have given them the much-needed cash...
**** A crew onboard a spacecraft will experience gravity whenever the ship's engines are firing -- thefiring—the gravity just happens to be directed toward the back of the ship. (Incidentally, one episode showed two humans in a cargo hold of a spacecraft experiencing Zero Gee, ''while'' the engines were on. JMS got some flak for that from the fans.)
**** They made their ships to look more advanced then they were on purpose... but they're all shown strapped in during the show (just like the crews of the human ships that didn't have rotating parts).
**** [[Word of God]] is that the Narns did not have artificial gravity, which is why anyone you see in a Narn ship is strapped into their seat.
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* In the episode "Believers" why weren't the parents immediately arrested for murdering their child on Babylon 5? I could understand them waiting until they got home (or even onto the transport ship), but I would think that Commander Sinclair would have a dim view of people killing other people for religious views on his station. This is also after the episode has made a big deal about how it is required for Stephen to respect the wishes and religious views of the parents and not operate on their son. Are the parents exempt from respecting the rules and laws of Babylon 5?
** Diplomacy. The Earth Alliance is not the United States--inStates—in fact, they're definitely in the lower half of the galactic pecking order, and recently came out of a war that would have led to their extinction had {{spoiler|Sinclair not been [[the Messiah]] to the Minbari}}. They don't want to start a massive international incident.
*** They weren't even from a League world, half the episode was the parents trying to get someone to throw some diplomatic weight behind them.
** Didn't you know? Religous freedom always trumps the law. Its tradition, after all, and that makes it ok!
*** Without actually knowing ''what'' the rules of the Babylon station say on the matter (and they never say clearly), anything we speculate here is just guesswork. The fact is, they were not arrested, and there must have been a reason for that, but since it was unstated, the viewers are limited to [[WMG|WMGing]]ing about it.
**** If I remember correctly, the [[Word of God]] was that each race follows their own laws in internal affairs, and in this particular case, the parents had the full right to do the deed under their own law. If they had killed a human child, for example, the station's justice system would have been less lenient.
***** Confirmed in the [http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/010.html Lurker's Guide] page for the episode.
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*** It's perfectly possible to be both soulmates and a [[Perfectly Arranged Marriage]] with Sheridan. Delenn never flirted with Neroon; they met, made a political conspiracy, and courteously called each other [[Worthy Opponent]] s . As for Lennier, I didn't get to season 5 but in season 1-4 she was perfectly proper with him. She was in an incredible bind; for she knew she owed him a lot but the one thing he wanted(without him admitting it) was the one thing she couldn't give. Perhaps she should have dismissed him but she couldn't bear to break his heart, and it would likely dishonor Lennier, certainly if the reason became known. The whole thing was was just a very sad tragedy.
*** Aren't you being just a wee bit hard on Sheridan? That was simply the way every lover that sees their beloved off to war is supposed to act in stories. It is a simple replay of the [[Duty First, Love Second]] trope.
** The most obnoxious thing about Delenn is that we're supposed to forgive her for her role in the E-M war despite ''never'' seeing any character work to justify that she's worthy of forgiveness--andforgiveness—and, in fact, a lot of stuff (such as her handling of the Drakh first contact) which suggests she hasn't learned much from her mistake. If we're supposed to forgive her, then we should have seen some indication that she's troubled by what she did. Even one line to Lennier in Atonement -- imagineAtonement—imagine i.e. "this is what I am remembering when I wake up at night screaming" -- would—would have gone along way to show that she's actually repentant and therefore worthy of consideration for forgiveness.
*** She was a stateswoman and had to keep such feelings bottled up. On some occasions every decision a powerful figure makes will cause someone to die. If a decision turns out to be a mistake thats even worse. That doesn't mean she wasn't troubled-in fact she certainly did seem troubled to me, it meant she simply wasn't rendered incapable of functioning. As for "repenting" the only ones she could "repent" to are humans, whatever she considers her equivalent of God to be, and to herself. She can't apologize to humans without the orders of the Minbari government which certainly would never be given as she was a diplomat and not an ordinary person. And the other forms of repentance are private matters, especially to an honor culture like the Minbari. It would not have helped make everything all better if she had ruined herself with grief when people depended on her. I'm sure [[Winston Churchill]] didn't feel dandy about the bombing campaign after the war either but he kept that to himself.
*** Remember when Delenn cringed when the reporter was interviewing her. That makes it pretty obvious that she regretted it.
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*** With all the warships shooting at each other and the jamming that must have been going on, Sheridan in his spacesuit with a piddling suitcase nuke must have been the least threatening energy signature around. That would have let him sneak around the artifact. He was going to splat ineffectually against the shields, so there was no need for the bad guys to waste time swatting him, and he was heading for the bad guys so no reason for the good guys to shoot him.
 
** S & D are very difficult characters to get a grasp on. You're certainly not alone in finding S & D to be extremely obnoxious. Much of the B5 fanbase adores them; even some people who find them obnoxious still adore them. Neither Sheridan or Delenn are particularly likable yet they--andthey—and especially Delenn--comeDelenn—come off as extremely sympathetic characters. Delenn is a bitch who has risen to a level of power far above her capabilities, but it's very hard for anyone who has seen much of the character to turn against her, or realize that she's done enough despicable things to be considered an ''antagonist'' in most universes. Likewise, it's hard to hate Sheridan even though he's an arrogant idiot of dubious competence. Consider it a bad case of [[Informed Ability]].
*** She helped formed an alliance of almost every known race including her own race's former enemy. I think Deleen gets a pass on diplomatic competence.
** I think a big part of the magic that was B5 is that everything in the series meshes well enough that the viewer doesn't look at things hard enough to see the plot holes or realize that all of characters deserve to be fired out the nearest airlock post haste.
** Building off the above thought regarding how most of the main characters deserve to be spaced...
*** Delenn is a textbook [[Love Freak]] - who bears a huge responsiblity for nearly wiping out another species (The Humans) purely out spite. She dragged her race into intergalactic war twice - once out of misguided rage following the death of her mentor and once again because of her Messiah complex, her belief in prophecy and her belief that anything she does to bring about the prophecy is justified... even if she has to become a [[Manipulative Bitch]] and use multiple [[Xanatos Gambit|Xanatos Gambits]]s in order to manipulate Jeffery Sinclair, John Sheridan and everyone in the Warrior and Religious caste of her own people into doing what she thinks is best.
**** What kind of person would you want to inspire an intersteller war against demonic monsters? What qualities would you expect her to have? Deleen was the perfect choice as a symbol and unfortunately she had the weaknesses that would be most likely to go with the strengths that gave people courage. Her faults proves that epic heroes and heroines are dangerous(not a bad lesson), but her virtues were just what was needed.
**** And be fair, Delenn gets [[What the Hell, Hero?|called out]] on her dubious motives and actions. Several times, in fact, by several different characters.
*** G'Kar starts out as a [[Lawful Evil]] semi-[[Noble Bigot]] who considers any act that improves the position of the Narn regime to be justified because [[Humans Are Bastardsthe Real Monsters]] and Centauri Are Even Bigger Bastards. G'Kar himself is also a womanizer and a [[Magnificent Bastard]], who earned his own lofty position through blackmail and character assassination. Though he becomes somewhat more sympathetic as early as the end of season 1, he neverthless only starts his [[Redemption Quest]] much later, after initiating a [[Mind Rape]] on his sworn enemy and being manipulated with a vision of his dead father.
*** Londo starts as a [[Chaotic Neutral]] hedonist who winds up making a [[Deal with the Devil]] in a bid for more money, power and respect. He does eventually realize the depth of his mistakes but is slow in acting to correct the consequences of those mistakesand it winds up taking him the better part of two seasons to start his own [[Redemption Quest]] - by assassinating his partner in crime and his emperor.
***** Anyone who thinks all B5's characters need spacing because they actually have *gasp* CHARACTER FLAWS, has been watching too much Star Trek. An awesome bunch of actors made them pretty much all likeable, warts and all.
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* The biggest issue with the B5 arc is that there was no plot work establishing why the Shadows and Vorlons meekly packed their bags at Corianna 6. Over the course of minutes, the Shadows and Vorlons went from using planet killers to walking away peacefully despite having no established reason to stand down. There was no more of a reason for the belligerents to put aside their 10,000+ year feud because Sheridan asked them to grow up than there would have been a reason for the Americans and Soviets to end the cold war during the Cuban Missile Crisis if the Dominican Republic had asked the superpowers to please kindly not have a nuclear war on their doorstep. Sheridan had hardly any more tools to influence the Shadows and Vorlons than the Dominican Republic would have had to influence the USSR and USA. When Corianna 6 happened, the Shadows and Vorlons would have been as committed to the war as the USSR and USA were committed in 1962.
** Both Shadows and Vorlons consider themselves guardians and teachers of the younger races. Sheridan argues that if they go on with their little war, they will eventually have no one left to guard and teach at the end. No matter who would have won their war, ''both'' would have failed their mission as guardians and teachers. I think it's a somewhat convincing argument.
* There was no reason for the Shadows and Vorlons to stand down rather than pulverize--orpulverize—or even ''ignore''--the—the combined fleet. It is absurd to think that the Shadows suddenly developed a conscience against killing the entire fleet after spending months decimating populated planets.
** They didn't develop a conscience, this wasn't a real war to them. The Shadows were turning the other races against each other, driving them into conflict and upping the ante whenever things started to cool down, that was their goal to provide conflict and help the younger races grow from it. They brought out the planet killers because the Vorlons did and the Vorlons did it to wipe out their influence, not the Shadows themselves, to amke the Vorlon way of doing thinsg the dominant way. The war ended and they left because the younger races flat out refused to accept either of their methods or follow them anymore. The Shadows and Vorlons stayed behind with the younger races to guide and teach them so they'd grow into First ones themselves, if the younger races would not listen to them any longer there was no longer any point to the conflict or remaining there any longer, so they left. The war wasn't about territory or rescources or power, it was a debate between the two First Ones over who had the better method, and the debate was cancelled before conclusion because the audience got up and left.
* JMS should have left some foreshadowing to suggest that the Shadows and Vorlons were open to a non-violent final settlement or reached far enough into the deus ex machina pit to make 'get the hell out of our galaxy' an order backed by credible force.
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** It doesn't explain the Vorlon position nor does it pass the smell test given the Shadows' collective intelligence and the depth of their commitment to the war. A mature and committed (political) actor would not make a 180 degree about face within minutes of someone pointing out the obvious. They would have either realized the problem (mass genocide == nobody alive to mindfuck) in advance and backed away from going on a rampage or have been too committed (killing the Vorlons is more important than having anyone alive to mindfuck) to reverse course. Falling over that quickly would be a bit like the United States, circa 2002, deciding not to invade Iraq just because some child reminded Dick Cheney that wars kill people.
** It's possible I'm holding JMS to too high a standard by using international relations concepts and basic game theory to take apart a script that was almost certainly written in a few days by someone who doesn't have a background in IR.... :-)
*** That is a severe case of [[Completely Missing the Point]]. Neither the Shadows nor the Vorlons are fighting for dominance, territory or because they like killing people. Sheridan actually says it the best: This whole conflict is like two parents fighting in front of their children, forcing them to decide who is right. The whole genocide thing was largly incidental: The whole premise of the Shadows' philosophy is "You can't make an omlett without breaking some eggs" but they are not [[Omnicidal Maniac|Omnicidal Maniacs]]s and the Vorlons joined in on the fun to erradicate the Shadows' influence on the YR, not the Shadows themselves ("You don't want to kill the messenger, you only want to kill the message. Make it harder for them to get to us.") They always avoided a straight on confrontation with each other, forcing the issue was the whole point of Sheridan's Gambit. Furthermore, they didn't relent because Sheridan pointed out the imorality of their actions. Lorien broadcated the [[We Can Rule Together]] speeches between Sheridan and the Vorlons / Delenn and the Shadows to every other ship in the fleet ("You let them see! You let them know!") so suddenly everyone knew what this conflict was all about. They figured Sheridan is the central nexus keeping the other races opposed to them but learned otherwise when they tried to kill him. Their "children" collectively had rebelled against them, rejected their ideals and refused to accept them. Even without the realization that what they did was wrong, their mission to sheppard the younger races had ultimately failed, unsalvageable. They had the choice to either continue the war until there was no one left - thus increasing the magnitude of their failure, stay in the galaxy isolated from the other races that rejected them and end up alone or rejoin their old buddies beyond the rim. Obviously, they picked the latter option.
** Another major factor was that they got so wrapped up defending their philosophies that they actually forgot what they were. They had become caricatures of themselves even in their own eyes. When asked their own questions, "who are you?", "what do you want?", neither side had an answer. It's like if the child instead asked Cheney WHY the US should invade Iraq and he suddenly realized he had no idea.
** I think that the point has been missed: neither the Shadows, nor the Vorlons were fighting for territory or dominance. They were fighting, in a very real sense for the younger races. If the younger races walked away from them, what's the point? There is no longer anyone to influence. The original purpose of the Shadows and Vorlons was to educate, and bring forth the younger races. Killing, or driving them away from your ideology counts as failure.
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** I would not be surprised if President Delenn leaned on EF to get rid of it for her own reasons. She would have motives to get rid of the station, both so it wouldn't serve to remind her of Sheridan and so it wouldn't serve as reminder to her of the hell she went through (tortured, held hostage, stabbed, nearly killed by Kosh, threatened with rape) when she lived there.
* Why did JMS need to make bitchy little digs at ''Star Trek'' in interviews and even on the show? Didn't he think B5 could sell itself without trying to drum up some ridiculous feud? Thankfully, Trek's writers didn't take the bait.
** It wasn't "bitchy" at all -- itall—it was good-natured. ''Babylon 5'' and ''Star Trek'' even shared several writers (David Gerrold, DC Fontana, Peter David) and cast members (Walter Koenig [being the most obvious example). All ''Babylon 5'' and ''Star Trek'' ever really had was a friendly rivalry. It was the [[Fan Dumb]] on ''both'' sides who wanted to push things into "feud" territory.
*** "This isn't some deep-space franchise, this station is about something!" Sounds catty to me. JMS also compiled a list of supposed similarities between the shows--heshows—he mentioned that both shows have commanding officers whose initials are "J.S." ''Deep Space Nine'''s captain was named Benjamin Sisko.
*** And even then, it's not like he wasn't entitled to a few "bitchy little digs" at Trek. JMS originally tried to sell ''Babylon 5'' to Paramount as early as 1989 and they turned him down. Then lo and behold, just after Warner Bros. announced that they would be producing B5 instead, Paramount announced the development of a stunningly similar series known as ''Star Trek: Deep Space Nine'' and that it would be airing mere weeks before the debut of ''Babylon 5''. Even the most irrational man could be forgiven for thinking that Paramount had plagiarized JMS' original concept.
** That line was actually written by Peter David, too. He didn't seriously think they'd use it.
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