Batman Begins/Headscratchers: Difference between revisions

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*** The reason all of those tricks are used are because they're meant to play into Batman's tactics: ''appear'' as if you're doing something physically impossible and you scare the crap out of someone watching you do it. Theatricality and misdirection, as Ra's might say.

* So is Henri Ducard a false identity all along? Or did he just inherit the position after the original Ra's (as played by Ken Watanabe) died? The movie itself doesn't seem to point definitely to either option.

** The clear implication--or so it seems to me--is that in keeping with Nolan's semi-realistic depiction of the Batmanverse, there are no Lazarus pits or anything and "Ra's al-Ghul" is nothing in the first place but a centuries-long Scooby Doo hoax. If there ever was a real, original Ra's, he died a very long time ago. But the League keeps the legend of his immortality, power, and continued leadership going, always having a new guy, looking the same as the previous ones and the same age, posing as the same leader from the beginning, while [[The Dragon]] is always the [[Dragon in Chief|real leader]], and in that sense insofar as there is a real Ra's al-Ghul it is him. And this generation that secret leader was Henri Ducard.

** The clear implication--or so it seems to me--is that in keeping with Nolan's semi-realistic depiction of the Batmanverse, there are no Lazarus pits or anything and "Ra's al-Ghul" is nothing in the first place but a centuries-long Scooby Doo hoax. If there ever was a real, original Ra's, he died a very long time ago. But the League keeps the legend of his immortality, power, and continued leadership going, always having a new guy, looking the same as the previous ones and the same age, posing as the same leader from the beginning, while [[The Dragon]] is always the [[Dragon-in-Chief|real leader]], and in that sense insofar as there is a real Ra's al-Ghul it is him. And this generation that secret leader was Henri Ducard.

*** But to answer your question, yes, it's implied that "Henri Ducard" was the real Ra's al-Ghul all along.

* One thing that bugged me about Crane was his outfit. The mask is [[Nightmare Fuel|damn creepy,]] but when the rest of your outfit consists of a suit and tie, [[Nightmare Retardant|it really doesn't work that well.]] I understand that he couldn't just change in the middle of a battle, but if he was anticipating using the mask and he wasn't in the hospital, like when he was burning down that apartment, he could have dressed in something that would fit.

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*** Plus you get a nice [[Badass in A Nice Suit]] thing going on. Makes him quirkier, I guess.

*** On top of that, Crane is a psychiatrist and his toxin causes a form of fear-related insanity. So it makes some sense that his outfit (scarecrow mask plus business suit) is weird and irrational.

* How is it that Bruce could receive all the training he did from the League of Shadows and hear absolutely nothing about their true intentions? Seems like part of his training would at the very least involve a ''bit'' of indoctrination in their philosophy. (To be fair, Ducard ''did'' mention the farmer he tried to have Bruce execute would face "justice" in a casual manner just reeking of "eye for an eye," and this also leads to [[Fridge Brilliance]] as to the [[They Changed It Now It Sucks|renaming]] of the League of Assassins. Still, though, what he was being asked to do really shouldn't have come as such a surprise to Bruce.)

* How is it that Bruce could receive all the training he did from the League of Shadows and hear absolutely nothing about their true intentions? Seems like part of his training would at the very least involve a ''bit'' of indoctrination in their philosophy. (To be fair, Ducard ''did'' mention the farmer he tried to have Bruce execute would face "justice" in a casual manner just reeking of "eye for an eye," and this also leads to [[Fridge Brilliance]] as to the [[They Changed It, Now It Sucks|renaming]] of the League of Assassins. Still, though, what he was being asked to do really shouldn't have come as such a surprise to Bruce.)

** As for your question, I wonder myself. But as to the name of the league, I'm pretty sure that in the comics the League of Assassains is a ''division'' of the League of Shadows.

** Bruce is being indoctrinated into their beliefs, he just didn't realize how much they diverged from his own until they asked him to execute the criminal (and destroy Gotham, for that matter). Perhaps he may have even been willing to kill until he was confronted with the opportunity and realized it wasn't his way.

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*** Also, Batman is probably willing to give Falcone a few burns, so long as they're not fatal. He is a crime lord, after all.

* Why is it that the "Complete Monster" entry for Ra's al Ghul keeps getting deleted?

** Because Ra's is arguably a [[Well Intentioned Extremist]], though I think of him more along the lines of [[Knight Templar]]; in any case, he's given a [[Freudian Excuse]], (granted, arguably insufficient one) and he does try to justify what he does, if not genuinely believe it to be the right thing.

** Because Ra's is arguably a [[Well-Intentioned Extremist]], though I think of him more along the lines of [[Knight Templar]]; in any case, he's given a [[Freudian Excuse]], (granted, arguably insufficient one) and he does try to justify what he does, if not genuinely believe it to be the right thing.

** To contrast with the character tropes in the point above, a Complete Monster will kill\torture people because it feels good, or for direct personal gain, whereas Ra's is trying to improve the world and doesn't even seem to be particularly lustful for power (again, at least not the kind used for direct personal gain). He'll kill innocent children, but at least he'll treat them as collateral damage without actively trying to kill them.

** I think the better question would be "Why does someone keep calling him a Complete Monster?"

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** And it's arguably better that Batman names himself, rather than being named by one of his lesser-known villains.

* Why would a vial of the antidote be useful for mass production? (As opposed to a chemical/amino acid structure or even better, detailed instructions for synthesis). Solving the structure of a compound isn't exactly trivial and neither is developing a synthesis from scratch. The only way a vial of something could be useful is if it were a starter culture of bacteria (or other cells) that would product the protein, but that would similarly require a purification method (again not trivial especially when one doesn't know what the antitoxin is. Plus, it's unlikely that cells would have survived in good condition for that long).

** Yeah...I'm chalking this one up to [[Viewers ~~Are~~ Morons]]. Procedural cop shows like CSI have tricked lots of people into thinking that you can take one tiny sample of something, run it through a spectro-whatcha-machine in a lab somewhere, and fart out a complete chemical analysis. That said, I don't think Batman expected a mass produced antidote overnight. There probably would be a long stretch of time when Batman has to work to keep the Narrows from exploding into violent chaos while the antidote is being manufactured. And the end of the movie implies there's been a timeskip.

** Yeah...I'm chalking this one up to [[Viewers are Morons]]. Procedural cop shows like CSI have tricked lots of people into thinking that you can take one tiny sample of something, run it through a spectro-whatcha-machine in a lab somewhere, and fart out a complete chemical analysis. That said, I don't think Batman expected a mass produced antidote overnight. There probably would be a long stretch of time when Batman has to work to keep the Narrows from exploding into violent chaos while the antidote is being manufactured. And the end of the movie implies there's been a timeskip.

** Doesn't Lucius state he did the legwork in making the antidote? Bruce also asks him to make more of it, after Lucius explains part of the process in making the antidote after Bruce is gassed by Crane. From that angle, Fox already understands what makes up the League/Crane's drug, and just has to make more antidote, which comes in conveniently handy at the film's end.

** I may be wrong, but I thought Lucius made the antidote from SCRATCH once Bruce had been gassed. Based on the substances in his blood. For all we know it just limits the violent reaction to the toxins while it runs its course.

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* During the car chase, when the Tumbler goes into stealth mode, how did the police lose it so easily? You can literally see the Tumbler slow down to get out of the spotlight, but the spotlight never sweeps back.

** The implication from the "test drive" is that the Tumbler's very maneuverable, which would include sudden speed drops. And possibly the police were relying on FLIR or something like it to track the vehicle, which one presumes the Tumbler's built to defeat when it goes to stealth.

* Relating to the earlier discussion above about why Ra's al Ghul can't be considered a [[Complete Monster]], consider this [[Fridge Logic]]? Ducard confesses that they originally planned to destroy Gotham through "economics," the implication being that it was actually doing quite well beforehand and that they ''caused the depression'' that turned Gotham into a craphole. ''[[What the Hell Hero|What the hell anti-heroes?]]'' It almost seems like they were inventing an excuse to cause another mass murder, thus putting their non [[Complete Monster]] status into question.

* Relating to the earlier discussion above about why Ra's al Ghul can't be considered a [[Complete Monster]], consider this [[Fridge Logic]]? Ducard confesses that they originally planned to destroy Gotham through "economics," the implication being that it was actually doing quite well beforehand and that they ''caused the depression'' that turned Gotham into a craphole. ''[[What the Hell, Hero?|What the hell anti-heroes?]]'' It almost seems like they were inventing an excuse to cause another mass murder, thus putting their non [[Complete Monster]] status into question.

** I don't think anybody denies that they're ''evil''. The movie certainly portrays them as such. But the [[Lo S]] at least believe that they are doing good, and (assuming Ra's/Ducard was telling the truth) their leader has a definite [[Freudian Excuse]]. That disqualifies them from being ''pure'' evil "devoid of altruistic qualities", which is what [[Complete Monster]] mandates. Evil =/= [[Complete Monster]].

** I think you're misunderstanding. Ducard isn't saying that Gotham was a nice, well-mannered place, then they caused the depression that made it a hellhole. He's saying that Gotham was already turning into a hellhole, and the League turned up the crank on the crappy economy to turn it into so much ''more'' of a hellhole that it would self-destruct.