Dragon Age II/YMMV: Difference between revisions

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* [[Alas, Poor Scrappy]]:

** {{spoiler|And much more contentious, Anders, if you choose to execute him. Regardless of fan reception, it was clearly designed to give his death drama.}}

* [[Alas, Poor Villain]]: {{spoiler|Bartrand}}, and {{spoiler|Meredith}} by game's end. Neither were sweethearts prior to obtaining {{spoiler|the lyrium idol}} but they got really bad afterwards.

* [[Alternative Character Interpretation]]: This game is made of this trope. Almost every character can be interpreted in multiple, valid ways. Because it is [[Low Fantasy|lower fantasy than its predecessor]], the game forces the player to reevaluate preconceptions built up by playing as the Warden, such as the fate of mages, the rightness of the Chantry, etc. Hawke having an apostate sister, or being one him/herself, gives the player a distinctly different starting perspective than, say, the Human Noble Warden.

** Anders. Is he a tragic hero, a hypocritical asshole, or some combination of the two? {{spoiler|At best, he's a revolutionary fighting against injustice. At worst, he's a terrorist.}}

** Grand Cleric Elthina. Was she the only thing keeping the mage/templar conflict stable, or did her refusal to take a side make things worse? A question also applicable to the Chantry/Qunari conflict in Act 2. Either the appearance of violent zealots was an inevitable consequence of the sustained Qunari presence in the city, or the deterioration of so many members of her church is an indication that she is dangerously out-of-touch with the rest of Kirkwall.

** {{spoiler|Orsino}} is either a good man who did horrible things out of desperation, or an [[Bitch in Sheep's Clothing|Asshole In Sheep's Clothing]]. Further complicated by him acting differently depending on which ending you take.

** Meredith can either be a crazed [[Knight Templar]], a [[Well-Intentioned Extremist]], or a [[Properly Paranoid]] woman who was right all along.

** Sebastian: A [[Royals Who Actually Do Something|Royal Who Actually Does Something]] or a spoiled prince who'll try to get others to do his dirty work more often than not?

** People are debating whether or not Anders is the most compelling character in the game and is a tragic figure that's developed from his previous incarnation, or a complete asshole. Or both.

** Carver's [[Sibling Rivalry]] with Hawke either gave him depth that Bethany lacked, or made him an annoying whiner.

** Similarly, Bethany is either completely generic and flat as a character, or a refreshingly well-adjusted [[Only Sane Man|Only Sane Gal]] in a cast of ridiculously dysfunctional people. As with Carver, it depends on how much the player enjoys a [[Dysfunction Junction]].

* [[Complete Monster]]: Quentin. Also, Ser Alrik.

* [[Contested Sequel]]: Is it a worthy entry into the DA franchise, an okay but obviously rushed game, or the herald of the beginning of the end for all of Bioware? [[Flame War|There but for the grace of God go you, gentle troper.]]

* [[Crowning Music of Awesome]]: The song that plays in the ''Destiny'' trailer. That chorus. ''Oh good Lord, that chorus.''

* [[Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy]]: Some people who played the game complained that the {{spoiler|[[Evil Versus Evil|conflict between the mages and templars]]}} resulted in this, making many a player utter the [[Eight Deadly Words]].

** Enemy assassins had disproportionately large hitpoint bars and vanish off-screen during battle, reappearing only to backstab the member of your team with the lowest armor or health value for massive damage only to return to stealth immediately after. This means that, at best, the player has a seconds-long window to whittle down a large amount of health while dealing with whatever other backup they brought with them and places frail members at exceptional risk.

** Enemy mages, while not as versatile as before, are still a large pain with dangerous area of effect attacks that can easily wipe out a party in seconds if they do not move out of their substantial range. The mages themselves are still relatively [[Squishy Wizard|frail]] compared to warriors, but get around this by either covering themselves in an impenetrable shield for ten seconds at a time (at least they can't do anything while in that shield), or seemingly teleporting themselves to a random point on the battlefield to evade. Of special note are Blood Mages, Serebaas, and Arcane Horrors; three foes that you'll have to eliminate as soon as possible if you hope to win a battle.

** Revenants are just as deadly in this game as they were in ''Origins''. Worse, they often appear alongside Arcane Horrors and have a nasty tendency of pulling you away from them giving the Horrors time to cast their party killing spells.

** More literally, poison spiders on nightmare. That damned stun poison attack lets them wipe out anyone in 1v1 combat unless you can stop that. And the biggest problem is that they always spawn at least 2, usually 3, at a time. Definitely a contender for the toughest non-boss enemy in the game, at least on nightmare.

*** Genlocks return as apelike berserkers. Not so bad on their own. Their Alpha cousins, on the other hand, are large menacing creatures that carry spiked shields that almost completely nullify head-on damage. Getting behind them is easier said than done as they have surprisingly quick charge attacks that do massive damage and send most characters flying. To make it worse, the areas where they're found are full of identical spiked shields as background pieces that allow them to ambush the player.

*** Hurlock Alphas return as hideous, three meter tall giants with massive axes capable of easily sending an entire party flying in one sweep. Worse, they actually seem to buff and coordinate other darkspawn into a much more dangerous force.

** Oddly enough, the in-game description casts the first two decisions in a more negative light than they appear in the first game. Alistair [[Rage Quit|leaves the party in disgust]] if Loghain is spared, and if Alistair is in exile, it's because the Warden intervened to stop his execution. Loghain also insists on being the one to slay the Archdemon so that he [[The Atoner|can atone]] [[Redemption Equals Death|for his wrongdoing]]. An argument can be made for him being a [[Designated Villain|Designated Anti-Hero]]

** And if you look more closely at the other two choices of import, they aren't so clean and shiny either. The Cousland option, at least, is the one where the werewolves survived (as werewolves) - obviously meaning that Cousland massacred the Dalish clan.

** Snarky Hawke gets this treatment if s/he opts to joke while {{spoiler|Viscount Dumar is holding Saemus' corpse.}} Aveline will [[What the Hell, Hero?|call Hawke on this]].

* [[Ensemble Darkhorse]]: The (very) minor character Lilley from the Inside Job sidequest (who has about 10 lines of dialogue and {{spoiler|gets killed off half-way through the quest}}) has somehow endeared herself to a lot of fans, some of whom go as far as to suggest she should have been made a permanent party member. This is probably all thanks to her surprisingly powerful voice acting, though her being a good-looking [[Action Girl]] likely helped a lot, too.

** Ketojan. He really gave the feeling that he was going to be a party member, which meant his fate left a lot of players very disappointed.

* [[Fan Nickname]]: "Diplomatic" and "Aggressive" are more commonly referred to as [[Mass Effect|"Paragon" and "Renegade."]]

* [[Foe Yay Shipping]]: Aveline and Isabela, ohsoverymuch. Somebody is writing perverted [[Femme Slash]] between them at this very moment. Probably Varric. Or Isabela herself.

** Merrill/Fenris is also surpisingly prevalent in the fandom, for similar reasons.

* [[Funny Aneurysm Moment]]: If Varric is in the party when Dougal offers to front you the cash to get in on the Deep Roads expedition, when you mention that Bartrand won't like it if Dougal is involved Varric will say, quote, "He'd lose his mind. Not that it wouldn't be funny to watch." Yeah...not so funny to someone who's already done a playthrough and knows what happens to Bartrand after the Deep Roads...

** One of the "Bone Pit" sidequests has Hawke convincing the miners to go back to work. One of the miners doesn't want to go back after the dragon attack. He drunkenly says "What if something else comes, like uh...''bigger'' dragons?" [[It Got Worse|Cue Act III...]]

** The Gravitic spell is fun to abuse. It will cause all foes within its wide range to move at a snail's pace, allowing you and your companions to pile blow after blow on them without fear of serious retaliation. Foes at the epicenter of the spell are so slow that they might as well be paralyzed. The spell turns almost any boss fight into a [[Curb Stomp Battle]]. For extra fun, you can clump all your foes at the centre of Gravitic using Pull of the Abyss, and take advantage of their inability to spread out from one another by finishing them all off with an area of effect attack, like Firestorm or Cone of Cold.

** Do you want to be a more defensive mage instead of an offensive one? Just take Spirit Healer. Enable Aura, then slap on Arcane Shield and Rock Armor and have fun tanking ''anything'' as you are dealt nothing but instantly healed scratch damage. Yes, this includes ''the final boss''.

** Dual Weapon Rogue -> Assassin specialization -> Assassinate -> Overkill -> amped-up Cunning = one-shot just about anything that isn't a full-fledged boss. The Assassin specialization also gets Pinpoint Strikes, which turns ''every attack'' into a critical hit, and a passive ability that doubles the critical bonus granted by Cunning. Anything that survives Assassinate can be cut down by Pinpoint Strikes in seconds. And then you can have Anders or Bethany cast Haste, and Hawke will be hitting enemies so fast that their health bar will be glowing white from all the criticals.

** Adding to the above is the Duelist specialization, which works to essentially make Hawke nearly untouchable in combat and able to tear down single opponents in seconds. Specc'd properly, a Dual Weapon Rogue Hawke with Assassin and Duelist specializations can tank ''and'' inflict horrific amounts of damage by him/herself, becoming an almost literal [[One-Man Army]].

* [[Game Breaking Bug]]: Your entire party is dead, but it goes to a cutscene straight from combat (eg the Ancient Rock Wraith)? Yeah....At best you'll be starting over from your last save as the game freezes up on a pseudo loading/party screen, at worst the file becomes corrupted and is [[Lost Forever]].

** Quite a few bugs crop up that can render quests unable to be finished, most of which can be tripped simply by looting things in the wrong order. Normally, these can be fixed by loading up a saved game (or the console on the PC), but if you don't save very often, you may lose hours of gameplay. Especially grating because some such quests must be completed before moving on with the story.

* [[Good Bad Bugs]]:

*** This can actually cause a glitch with the post game autosave. If the boss isn't allowed to complete it's stun-cycle at least once the autosave may be saved incorrectly and when you load you will be stuck in a wall listening to the final battle dialog until the game crashes.

* [[Harsher in Hindsight]]: {{spoiler|Anders' destruction of the Chantry}} feels less comfortable given the 2011 Norway attacks, one perpetrator {{spoiler|also being named Anders}}. They look quite similar as well.

* [[Incest Yay Shipping]]: Hawke and Bethany. Owners of the computer version can even mod Merrill to have Bethany's appearance.

* [[Internet Backdraft]]: Opinions about the game's quality are highly varied. In addition, debating whether or not the {{spoiler|Rite of Annulment was justified and the fates of any surviving mages}} will get heated very quickly.

* [[Jerkass]]: A lot of characters come of this way in your dealings with them, but of all people Hawke ([[Dude, Not Funny|especially]] [[Deadpan Snarker|a Snarky]] [[Snark Knight|Hawke]]) sometimes seems to act like a [[Heroic Sociopath|sociopathic schadenfreude]]. Of particular note is after sleeping with Anders and he [[Anguished Declaration of Love|pours his heart out to you]] and asks to move in, a Snarky Hawke's response (complete with [[Cheshire Cat Grin|dirty smirk]]) is as follows, if Anders gets rejected.

'''Hawke:''' Sorry. You just weren't that good. }}

* [[Jerkass Woobie]]: Carver, if he lives so long. The more terrible things happen to him, the more Jerkass he becomes. Fenris even moreso.

** Anders and Justice are this too, individually or combined. Though Anders still genuinely seems like a selfless, caring person (even on occasion to Merrill), it's often undermined by his more callous/cruel remarks to people with differing opinions about mages. Of particular note is his taunting Aveline about her dead husband, and being delighted if you choose to hand Fenris {{spoiler|over to Danarius.}} Then there's Bethany. It's far less noticeable if she's forced to join the Circle, but even then she's cold and sharp towards Hawke in later Acts. Warden Bethany, however is even more bitter and cold towards not just Hawke, but almost all the former party members. This is more noticeable during the DLC, in which she provides some scathing remarks, which she then frustratedly retracts. It's a cruel counterpoint to Act 1's sweet, kind and gentle Bethany.

** "Goddamnit Anders" is also a frequent one.

** "Press a button and something awesome happens" (one of the devs used the line in a preview in summary of the new combat system) is popular among detractors of the game, Bioware as a whole and "dumbing down".

* [[Moral Event Horizon]]: So far, some fans reactions to {{spoiler|Anders ''nuking'' Kirkwall's Chantry in order to start a war between mages and templars have been disgust and horror. Meredith using the event as an excuse to invoke the Rite of Annulment is often met with similar revulsion.}}

** The game has this in spades in general, with the quest All That Remains, in which you scour a serial killing blood mage's incredibly creepy lair looking for {{spoiler|your mother}}, being a particular standout. And in the endgame, {{spoiler|First Enchanter Orsino's}} transformation into a gruesome Harvester.

** When investigating the disappearances of templar recruits early in the game, Hawke interrogates prostitute Idunna. She asks him/her how s/he found out about her. No matter what option you pick, she forces Hawke to answer her question and then tells him/her to slit his/her own throat. While Hawke makes it out, it is still very creepy when you watch your own character's actions controlled by someone else.

** {{spoiler|Anders blowing up the Chantry. Especially if you are in a romance with him.}}

** {{spoiler|If you help Merrill with all her quests with the mirror you end up having to kill the possessed Keeper. And unless you choose the counter-intuitive 'I assume responsibility' dialogue option when confronting the clan, you also have to slaughter ''the entire clan''. Including people like the mother of the boy you saved previously from the Fade, a friendly story teller, a proud craftsman who had previously explained his work. It's especially horrifying if you played as a Dalish Warden in Origins.}}

** Carver, as of ''Legacy''.

* [[Shoot the Shaggy Dog]]: Supporting the mages at the end. {{spoiler|Orsino flips out and has to be terminated. And in the finally, your life in the city that you've struggled the whole game to establish and improve ends in empty-handed exile. The upside is only whether you cared at all about the mage rebellion on the global scale.}}

** The Templar ending isn't much better. {{spoiler|After helping her annul the Circle, Meredith suspects you of conspiring with the mages, and...has to be terminated. Hawke implicitly becomes the Viscount of Kirkwall in the aftermath...and the continent-wide mage rebellion still happens and Hawke and company disappear.}}

* [[Straw Man Has a Point]]: Despite what you may feel about Meredith's methods, {{spoiler|she was in fact correct that a great deal of the Circle Mages were indeed practicing blood magic. This includes First Enchanter Orsino, who turns himself into an abomination and attacks Hawke, even if you choose to protect him.}}

** Since it still wasn't all of the circle mages this goes both ways. Orsino was not off-base when he told Meredith;

** If you read [http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Enigma_of_Kirkwall the Enigma of Kirkwall entries] you'll discover that the Tevinter magi specifically built Kirkwall as a giant amplifier for blood magic through use of the city's architecture and secretly sacrificing thousands of slaves. {{spoiler|The ritual sacrifice probably contributed to the weak Veil in Kirkwall (as stated in the codex), making communication with Fade demons a lot easier. No wonder so many Circle mages turned to blood magic; they're practically compelled to do so.}}

*** This point is expanded on with a Codex entry you find for ''Legacy'' which explicitly states that is why Kirkwall suffers a great deal of abominations/possessions.

* [[That One Boss]]: The Rock Wraith and the {{spoiler|duel with the Arishok}} provide the most frustrations for players.

** {{spoiler|Corypheus}} of ''Legacy'' proves to be much more of an annoyance than either of the others.

** The Sky Horror in ''Mark of the Assassin''. It's even tougher than {{spoiler|Duke Prosper and Leopold}}.

** The second game makes changes to the dialogue wheel, predefined character with a voice, combat, and many other mechanics. This crops up as a complaint due to that. This is reflected in the reviews for the game, which range from "best RPG combat ever" and "refreshingly original narrative" to "dull and unnecessary gameplay changes" or "unfocused and inferior story." Most reviews seem to strike somewhere between the middle, though this still puts the game lower than ''[[Dragon Age Origins]]''.

** The DA:O rogue was something of a [[Skill Gate]] character, but complaints from players who couldn't get the hang of them were numerous enough to remake them into another flavor of fighter. It didn't help that the [[Artificial Stupidity|AI didn't provide a good example of how to use them]]. As a YMMV, the changes could be as much an improvement, as the rogue can now be played as another flavor of fighter, and lockpicking/traps cost no additional skill investment.

** Also noticeable to tragic degree on Bethany if you take her to the Deep Roads. Makes you wonder why no one realised she was tainted sooner though. Oddly enough, the visual effects of the taint are not present on Carver if he becomes infected.

** Any fire you see is very nicely done, particularly considering how hard it is to make CGI fire look good.

'''Carver:''' I don't hate you because you're a mage. I hate you because you won't ''shut up'' about it. }}

** Similarly, Fenris can't seem to go longer than half of a conversation without mentioning slavery/evil mages/Tevinter. Not that it isn't somewhat justified, given [[Dark and Troubled Past|his background]], but some of his lines about it go a bit over the top.

** In-universe, this is the main reason that Carver isn't overly popular in the party, as he comes off as rather whiny for reasons that are much more small-scale and even downright petty compared to the rest of the group and their problems. He mostly gets over it later in the game though.

* [[What an Idiot!]]: Pol, oh Pol. {{spoiler|Apparently a few bits of gossip about meek, gentle Merrill is enough to get you to run away from her and right into the jaws of a Varterral that killed three of his fellows.}}

** Hawke him/herself may be the crowner. Just try going through the game without wanting to give him/her a hug at some point. {{spoiler|The best case scenario involves one sibling dead, his/er mother dead, him/herself vanishing from his/her new home at Kirkwall, and his/her other sibling as well as all his/her companions save his/her love interest driven from his/her side. The ''best case scenario.''}}

** Anders. Went from snarky comic relief to a paranoid and angsty nutcase. Life has not been good to him. His rudeness to various people, particularly Merrill, gradually edges him towards [[Jerkass Woobie]] before {{spoiler|diving straight into [[Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds]] with his little [[Earthshattering Kaboom|stunt]] at the Chantry.}}

** Merrill. When you consider how the Dalish treat their entire tribe like family, the way they ostracize her seems exceedingly harsh. Her reaction to {{spoiler|Pol's death}} was heart-wrenching, and her next personal quest includes a [[Player Punch]]. Fenris and Anders also say some ''incredibly'' cruel things to her from time to time.

** ''Bethany'', good God, Bethany. {{spoiler|For one, she is an apostate, so the entirety of her childhood was spent constantly on the lookout for Templars. Then, either she or her twin brother dies at the hands of an ogre. If she survives, and is taken to the Deep Roads, she is infected by the taint. Unless Anders is there, she dies. If he is there, then she undergoes the Joining. It is a harsh life and totally destroys any innocence she has left. Now, if you left her with Leandra, she is discovered by Cullen and is forced into the Circle, otherwise her family suffers reprisals for harboring an apostate. Either way, you don't see her again until the endgame. It gets a little better if you are pro-Mage and she joins the Circle. You get to free her from her bondage to the Circle and she isn't guaranteed a miserable life and a miserable death before she hits fifty.}}

** Leandra Hawke. One of her children gets killed in the beginning of the game, her brother {{spoiler|stole her inheritance, one of her children either gets sent to the Circle, the Templars, or the Grey Wardens and is never seen again or they die, and to top it all off, she is kidnapped by a serial killer and put through an [[And I Must Scream]] moment.}}

*** Even Gamlen has some Woobie qualities. Though he's to blame for gambling the family fortune away, you have to feel bad for him when you hear about how he nursed his ill parents in their dying days, only to have their last words be of Leandra, and leave all their money to her. He resents his sister due to this for quite a while (as a mirror to Carver/Hawke), before becoming utterly distraught and miserable when {{spoiler|she is murdered}}. The one high point of his story is that you can {{spoiler|unite him with a daughter he never knew he had.}}

 

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[[Category:YMMV]]