Grey and Gray Morality: Difference between revisions
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Contrast with [[Black and White Morality]]. Compare [[Both Sides Have a Point]], [[Black and Grey Morality]], [[White and Grey Morality]], [[Black and Black Morality]], [[Full Spectrum Morality]], [[Order Versus Chaos]], and [[A Lighter Shade of Grey]]. [[Feuding Families]] and [[Cycle of Revenge]] stories tend to fall under this, as do many depictions of historical wars. A [[Mob War]] may be this, or may fall under [[Black and Grey Morality]].
Any betrayals within a [[Grey and Grey Morality]] Universe will, by their very nature, be [[Hazy Feel Turn
{{examples}}
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* In ''[[Princess Mononoke]]'' both Eboshi and the animal spirits only want to protect their people, but both sides are more than willing to kill lots of innocents for that. Even the one character who is closest to being a real villain [[Affably Evil|is a very nice and likable guy]].
** The monkeys are really creepy, but their situation makes it kind of understandable why they would resolve to [[I'm a Humanitarian|such drastic measures]].
* ''[[Dorohedoro]]''. With all the [[Villain Episode]], you can't help but realize that the setting is filled with [[Punch Clock Villain
* The third season of ''[[Slayers]]''. Slayers TRY, falls under this, especially compared to the other seasons and most media, although it shows shades of [[A Lighter Shade of Gray]] at times. This particular plot calls out the [[God|Shinzoku]] as cowards, and the [[Big Bad]] and the [[Sealed Evil in a Can|greater being posessing him]] seek to rebuild the world by destroying it first, which affects the [[Exclusively Evil|Mazoku]] and what they desire.
** To a lesser extent, the ambitions of the [[Big Bad]] in the obscure video game ''Slayers Wonderful'' can be interpreted as this, as {{spoiler|the scientist Viola (the antagonist) wishes to seal magic in order to stop the warring between humans and those above them.}} Once again, though, it shows [[A Lighter Shade of Gray]].
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** It would be a stretch to call the Straw Hats "freedom fighters". Luffy himself has said that [[I'm Not a Hero, I'm X|he's not a hero]] and made it clear that he doesn't really care about the government. The crew is mainly motivated by self-interest rather than doing good in any abstract way. Their conflicts with the World Government usually come down to the government [[It's Personal|doing something to threaten them or their allies]].
* ''[[Steamboy]]'' explores the relationship between mankind and science, and aside from the O'Hara Foundation proper, none of the sides (Eddie Steam, Lloyd Steam, Scarlett O'Hara and Robert Stephenson) are shown to be entirely right or wrong.
* ''[[Vinland Saga]]'' is about [[Horny Vikings|vikings]]. The main character could generously be called a [[Heroic Sociopath]] and doesn't actually care what side he's on. The sides in question change, merge, and are destroyed through various slaughters and assassinations. It isn't so much
* In ''[[Elfen Lied]]'' the cruel and inhuman treatment of the [[Cute Monster Girl|diclonii]] makes it easy to root for them and see the scientist who capture and experiment on them as the villains. But given [[Kill All Humans|the natural instincts of the mutants]] and their [[Gorn|heartless brutality]] it's not that easy to say who are the [[Complete Monster|complete monsters]].
** The exceptions on both sides are Kurama and Nana who would rather avoid any more pain and death, but they are about the two most messed up characters in a story where every single person has serious problems with their mental health (and of course, [[There Are No Therapists]]).
* ''[[Heroic Age]]'': at first glance appears to have [[Black and White Morality]] between the human protagonists and alien antagonists warring against them, but it eventually goes on to show some of the humans [[Kick the Dog]] a few times while some of the aliens are portrayed sympathetically and others afraid that humans will kill THEM if they don't [[Destroy All Humans!]] first, while both races appear to suffer from [[Blue and Orange Morality]]. Eventually, this trope is lampshaded and taken to its logical conclusion {{spoiler|when both sides call a truce and eventually end the war.}}
* In ''[[Neon Genesis Evangelion]]'', opponents NERV/SEELE and the Angels have a common goal: destroy the opponent and initiate Third Impact for their own ends. Eventually, NERV and SEELE oppose each other as well, since they have one slight difference in how they want their [[Assimilation Plot|orange juice]] served.
* Although ''[[Nabari no Ou]]'' initially appears to be a case of [[Black and White Morality]], it's actually one of the rare cases where both sides are portrayed as more or less ''equally good''
* ''[[Naruto]]'', anyone? There are five major Ninja Villages (and a slew of smaller ones), each calling their sides to be the righteous, superior one, only allying when there's a bigger threat. Don't mind the fact that each and every one of them [[Tyke Bomb|train children]] [[Child Soldiers|into ninjas]] [[Person of Mass Destruction|with techniques capable of leveling cities]]. Don't mind the fact that the Leaf Village mistreats Naruto out of mindless fear, the villains are Orochimaru (If you Wild Guess, you may think of him as a victim. If the village mistreats Naruto for protecting them, why not the snake-looking kid too?), {{spoiler|Pain/Nagato, whose parents, best friend and [[And Your Little Dog, Too|DOG]] were killed by Leaf ninjas}}, Sasuke who isn't wrong for wanting to murder his last family member, {{spoiler|(and the Leaf Village elders who ordered him)}} who massacred his entire clan. And there's [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|Danzo]], who is somewhat a prick, willing to destroy all other villages if necessary, even killing any Leaf ninjas whom he sees as defiant. He only does so to try and catch up to his former comrade Sarutobi, and protect the Hidden Leaf to the end. Since everyone is fighting for their own point of view, Good and Evil are pretty much useless.
** On the other hand, very few will disagree that {{spoiler|Tobi}} is an [[Complete Monster|irredeemable asshole.]] Even then, his master plan can be viewed as an attempt to {{spoiler|end all conflict in the world by using his Sharingan on everyone at once.}}
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* ''[[Mushishi]]'' is often built around [[Grey and Grey Morality]]: it's irrational to blame an animal for doing what nature made it to do, even if 'what it does' is [[Body Horror|eating eyes, parasitically living in people's ears or devouring fetuses and taking their place]]. The mushi are bizarre and sometimes frightful, but mindlessly innocent, and the Mushishi who handle them can come off as [[Knight Templar]] or [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|Well Intentioned Extremists]] for exterminating them.
* ''[[Desert Punk (manga)|Desert Punk]]'' definitely fits this. Initially, it's a case of Punk fighting against people who are not much worse than him (and occasionally are somewhat better), but the ultimate plot about a rebellion falls squarely into this too. The Oasis Government presides over a horribly inequitable system (which is partly [[Inherent in the System]] because of the wasteland setting) and is involved in various conspiracies to control [[Lost Technology]] and silence those who find out about it. The rebels initially seem to be [[A Lighter Shade of Gray]], especially since sympathetic and idealistic government officials join them, but are made morally ambiguous because of a [[Utopia Justifies the Means]] attitude, which includes hiring unpleasant, even villainous characters to help their cause, one of whom has the outlook of an [[Omnicidal Maniac]] and is just manipulating them to advance his own goals.
* Given [[Real Life]] history, the Nations of ''[[Axis Powers Hetalia]]'' are definitely this. As everyone's shown to be good-at-heart in their own ways, not one of them is portrayed as utterly evil, including Ivan/Russia. This doesn't stop [[Dark Fic]] writers from making [[
* ''[[Magic Knight Rayearth]]'' has each side (or country, in season 2) fighting for what they believe is right. All of them meant well. None of them wanted to deliberately do evil. Yet each one had goals that would have eventually hurt others- even though it may have benefited somebody in the end.
* [[Getter Robo]] villains are at best [[Anti-Villain|Anti Villains]], at worst [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|Well Intentioned Extremists]]. The only villains that crossed the [[Complete Monster]] line are [[Human Are Bastards|human]], and really, its hard too see how the villains are "evil" especialy in the manga when most of them consist of the villain fighting for the happiness of their people, or trying to SAVE the world, complete with several [[Heroic Sacrifice]] to save the world. The only explanation for their status as villains are the fact that they are not human.
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* ''[[Tiberium Wars]]'' portrays both the Global Defense Initiative ''and'' the Brotherhood of Nod in sympathetic light, with Nod being presented as desperate and angry and vengeful for the wrongs GDI has perpetuated on them, and GDI being presented as [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|Well Intentioned Extremists]] who nonetheless are trying to protect the world and defend themselves against Nod aggression.
* It should come as no surprise, but the crossover fanfic ''[[Renegade (fanfic)|Renegade]]'' by the same author does the same thing, with the same factions. In fact, both factions are presented as protagonists, with the Brotherhood of Nod intervening in the slaver raid on Elysium and with {{spoiler|Kane himself}} attempting to negotiate a compromise between GDI and the Citadel. Of course, {{spoiler|Nod apparently stole the Tacitus on Eden Prime}}, which ''caused'' said conflict between GDI and the Citadel and allowed {{spoiler|Kane}} to score points by negotiating said compromise, so it might have [[The Plan|been part of the plan....]]
* Fittingly, considering the canon series'
== Film ==
* ''[[The Matrix]]'' sequels and supplementary materials [[
* By the end of ''[[The Prestige]]'', both lead characters have innocent blood on their hands, whether due to obsession with revenge, or due to single-minded pursuit of their Greatest Magic Trick Ever.
* Arguably the two leads in the film ''Changing Lanes''.
** Ditto for the [[Gender Flip]] counterpart film ''Last Exit''.
* While the [[Star Wars|Clone Wars]] saw the Separatists being led by a bunch of [[Corrupt Corporate Executive|corrupt corporate executives]] and Sith Lords and a homicidal cyborg, a lot of the worlds joining them were only doing so to oppose what they with some justification saw as a corrupt Republic. To grey out the other side further, as Anakin Skywalker observed, even the Jedi Council was feeling compelled to move into a more pragmatic and less moral direction. Ultimately, though, Anakin's protestations about
** The Separatists are still on the darker end, though. Yes, the Republic ended up becoming the Empire, but the conduct of clone troopers before Order 66 was much better than the droids. Also, contrast the Jedi Generals with General Grievous, and consider the fact that many Republic generals and statesmen later became rebels. Furthermore, that corruption in the Republic? It largely originated from those same [[Corrupt Corporate Executive
** The trope is invoked in the opening of ''[[Revenge of the Sith]]'', where the blurb briefly mentions that "there are heroes on both sides." In the films proper, however, there aren't any good Separatists shown on-screen. The ''[[Star Wars: The Clone Wars]]'' series attempted to rectify this, by actually showcasing some of those heroic Separatists.
* In the 2007 Chinese film, ''[[Film/Warlords|Warlords]]'', the three main characters are all grey, and so are pretty much all the characters. There are no heroes or outright monsters. This is a film that challenges the viewer to decide which is the more moral choice. Sometimes the moral thing to do results in greater harm or loss of life than the socially reprehensible thing to do.
* ''[[King Kong]]'', especially the [[Peter Jackson]] remake. Kong, an aggressive animal who kidnaps a human but wants to protect her as well, fights first a film
* The film version of ''[[Let the Right One In]]'' - the two main characters are a murderous vampire and a kid who has strong and violent revenge fantasies. None of the other characters are more sympathetic than they are.
* The Chinese/Korean coproduction ''[[Musa The Warrior]]'' shows both sides of the conflict (exiled Korean soldiers and defeated Mongol horsemen) to be somewhat sympathetic but deeply flawed people bound by both grim necessity and inflexible ethical codes to slaughter each other in a series of running battles [[What a Senseless Waste of Human Life|which ultimately achieve little but tragic attrition]].
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* In [[Chung Kuo]], there is no really good side; both the Han rulers and the European rebels commit atrocities as the story progresses
* The War between Manticore and Haven in ''[[Honor Harrington]]'', with the second Haven revolution in the series resulting in a government led by good people, has become this. Indeed, as this carries on it's lost even much of that, becoming more of a [[Let's You and Him Fight]] between good guys.
* Featured very prominently from the second series onward in ''[[Warrior Cats]]''. The authors have even gone back to write sympathetic backstories for most of the villains, the most notable being Scourge. Tigerstar and Hawkfrost are also noteworthy because, although they wanted power and did horrible things to get it, they only wanted power because they believed they could do a better job of running the Clans and help keep the forest peaceful (Although Tigerstar's vision for running the Clans was [[Politically-Incorrect Villain|very racist]]). The villains of the fourth series also consist almost entirely of cats that have been wronged or forgotten and are rising up for revenge. Then for the heroes, we have Brambleclaw, who had the exact same goals as Hawkfrost, and leaned dangerously close to [[The Dark Side]], making Hawkfrost's status as a [[Manipulative Bastard]] pretty much the only difference between them. We also have Leafpool and Squirrelflight with their
** And then there's ''Sunrise''. [[Broken Base|You could argue all you want over]] who was most responsible for the angst-filled mess that is the ending, but the most reasonable explanation (and the one that causes [[Mind Screw|the least headaches]]) is that ''everyone'' was in the wrong to a certain degree.
** {{spoiler|Hollyleaf also eventually [[Face Heel Turn|goes insane]] and possibly may show up in the fourth series as a [[Knight Templar|self-righteous villain]].}}
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* ''[[Animorphs]]'' falls under this tropes in the later books. At first it's a pretty clear cut case of the bad guys (the Yeerks, taking over the planet parasitically) and the good guys (the Animorphs, and by extension the Andalites, who also hate the Yeerks). As time wears on, however, it's revealed that the Andalites response to the Yeerks infesting the Hork-Bajir homeworld was to release a deadly virus into the atmosphere of the planet, killing nearly all Hork-Bajir on their homeworld. If the Animorphs fail to stop the Yeerk invasion, the Andalites have plans to do exactly the same thing to Earth. As well as that, some of the Yeerks start to be portrayed as actual characters, with individual motivations and emotions, instead of just a pack of slugs. Even the Taxxons, giant centipede-like creatures get some of this; they're revealed to be total slaves to their own hunger, literally unable to stop eating as long as there is food around. And then there are the Animorphs themselves; over the course of the books they morph from idealistic kids doing the best they can to a hardened guerilla force with no qualms about sacrificing the new bunch of idealistic kids in the name of winning the war. This seems to have been [[Moral of the Story|the point of the series]].
* Steven Erikson's ''[[Malazan Book of the Fallen]]'' has this part of the time, such as in the Malazan/Darujhistan conflict and the Letherii/Tiste Edur Conflict. At other times the series veers into [[Black and Gray Morality]] (the Crippled God vs. everyone else) and even [[Black and White Morality]] ({{spoiler|Anomander Rake vs. Chaos}} in ''Toll the Hounds'').
* [[Philip Pullman]], who wrote the ''[[His Dark Materials]]'' series, is the master of this trope. The story revolves around a mysterious thing called Dust. One side, the adults, believe it is evil and corrupting the innocent children; whereas the children themselves know basically nothing about it but dislike what the adults are doing, so they decide that it's really good. This gets less ambiguous, but it is still possible to read it as the Dust is a [[Necessary Evil]], or an Ultimate Good; and even individual characters are like this. Lyra's mother, for example, is one massive, manipulative bitch who {{spoiler|cuts childrens' daemons away from them (which is like splitting your soul in half}} but, on the other hand, she eventually {{spoiler|sacrifices herself with Lord Asriel, Lyra's father, to take down Metatron and "make the world safe for Lyra."}} Who the ''ultimate''
** The first book contains the best example of grey and gray morality. Lord Asriel, who is supposed to be an antithesis to the clearly evil Mrs. Coulter who works for the Church, {{spoiler|kills Lyra's friend in order to power his machine}}. This is seemingly ignored in the next two books and Asriel, with his crusade against God, becomes a strictly heroic character.
*** Hardly. Lyra, who is pretty much the author mouthpiece, continues to distrust and dislike Asriel and his methods for the entire series after what happened above. Asriel is depicted as [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|a man who has noble goals, but uses highly questionable methods to reach them]], while Mrs. Coultier is a dangerous sociopath with one redeeming quality, namely love for Lyra. They manage to combine their better qualities in a mutual [[Heroic Sacrifice]]. The books pretty much revolve around the issue that all people are flawed, and seemingly good people can do very bad things and vice versa.
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** ''Doctor Who and the Silurians'' is a textbook example as both the humans and the Silurians are shown to be equally aggressive and honourable, with even the Brigadier commiting attrocities to win.
** ''The Caves of Androzani'' depicts a brutal war between the military forces run by a well meaning but ruthless General whose willing to execute civilans when ordered even if he belives they're incocent, and [[Jerkass Woobie]] Sharaz Jek, a lechy drug runner whose been driven mad by the treachery of his former partner Morgus and helps the Doctor in the end.
* {{spoiler|The Vorlons and the Shadows}} in ''[[Babylon 5]]''
** JMS pointed out in first season commentary that he was proud to have pulled this off when the Vorlons were just as prone to blow stuff up with no real justification.
** JMS also stated that the actors who played Londo and G'Kar were asked to flip a coin to see who would be the "good" one. He was immediately asked: "Who won?"
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** ''Marquesas'' is perhaps one of the ''best'' examples of this trope; Neleh admittedly didn't start playing the game until Day 24 and glided through on other peoples' shoulders, while Vecepia flip-flopped enough times to make everyone question where she stood, and won because everyone was mad at Neleh.
** ''Thailand'' - Brian was a cold emotional sociopath who barely even spoke to the other tribe, and was accused of sexism and backstabbing among all things, while Clay was accused of racism and generally being a lech. Brian won only because he had enough people who respected him on the jury.
** ''Samoa'' is another more recent example of
** ''South Pacific'' - [[Number Two|Albert]] was seen as a sleaze and someone who nobody liked or respected, [[Ice Queen|Sophie]] was seen as a pretentious and condescending brat, and [[My Greatest Second Chance|Coach]] was accused of using religious hypocrisy and breaking his word several times over despite claiming to play with "honour" and "integrity". Ozzy laid it out in his opening jury speech - the jury did not want to vote for any of them.
* In ''[[Lost]]'', the issues are so complex and the characters so murky that ''no one'' seems to be pure good or evil, although there are definite shades of gray (Even Ben is getting into this point). In fact, the only people who are considered [[Complete Monster|pure evil]] are [[Con Man|Anthony Cooper]] and [[Psycho for Hire|Martin Keamy]].
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* During its first three series, ''[[The 4400]]'' featured several distinct factions (NTAC, the 4400 Centre, the people from the future, the Nova Group, Jordan Collier and his followers, {{spoiler|Dennis Ryland}}'s company), all of which are shown as in some way sympathetic, with good intentions. It's not until series four that we finally see some unambiguously bad guys ({{spoiler|The Marked, who want to stop the 4400 and bring about the apocalypse just to make sure they stay on top of the pile}}).
* While ''[[Fringe]]'' often presents wholly evil villains of the week, [[Myth Arc|the war between parallel universes]] has oodles of this trope. The person most directly responsible for starting the conflict is Walter, our loveable [[Mad Scientist]] good guy, who ''kidnapped his [[Alternate Universe]] counterpart's child'': the subsequent actions of Walter, William Bell, Walternate and both Fringe Divisions are attempts to defend their home universes from the other side's "attacks". Neither universe is depicted as "evil" or malicious. Walternate's ruthless, but he's faced with a world that's collapsing due to Walter's actions and believes it's the result of a deliberate attack by "our" universe. Also, Walter conducted experiments on children, a line Walternate was unwilling to cross.
* ''[[La Femme Nikita]]''
* ''[[Star Trek: Deep Space Nine]]'' flirts with this at some points. In a fifth-season episode, ''The Darkness and the Light,'' someone is targeting members of Kira's [[La Résistance|former resistance cell]]. She finally identifies the killer {{spoiler|a Cardassian servant disfigured in one of their bombings}}. He claims, persuasively, that she killed innocent people whereas he never did, such as a bomb she set taking out not only a brutal Cardassian war criminal, but ''his entire family'' too, along with anyone in the immediate vicinity, whereas he goes out of his way only to target them, and even spare the life of the unborn child she's carrying. Kira retorts that ''every'' Cardassian on Bajor, even if they just ''folded shirts'' as a servant shouldn't have been there and were guilty legitimate targets. True, she's talking with a calculating, cold-blooded killer, but it drives home that, yes, Kira ''was'' a terrorist, and from his point of view he is the [[Title Drop|"light" to her "darkness"]]. Kira's only real reply is the old idea that the one cannot exist without the other, or as she says "the light is brightest in the dark."
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* ''[[Brink]]'': The developers said they wanted to avert both [[La Résistance]] vs [[The Empire]], and [[Hero Cops]] vs. [[Evil Terrorists]]. And Mon Dieu did they do it well! To illustrate, Chen (Resisty leader.) and Mokoena (Security leader.) are both decent people in their own way and dicks in their own way. They both have noble goals: Chen wants to send a scouting party to find land and have equal resources and rights for Guests and Founders, and Mokoena doesn't want the Ark to descend into anarchy and wants them all to work together, and is just trying to keep the ark safe. And its also made clear that the Resistance and Security have their fair share of the "I'm doing what I have to" and "total bastard" mentalities.
* ''[[STALKER]]'': The conflict between Freedom and Duty is this, combined with [[Order Versus Chaos]]. Duty are a faction of grizzled ex-military types who believe [[Eldritch Location|The Zone]] is an abomination that threatens the world and should be destroyed. Freedom are a group of anarchists and thrill-seekers that believe The Zone is a miracle that provides beneficial eldritch artifacts and therefore should be freely accessed by the public. Neither is especially nicer than the other, and they both have their share of [[Jerkass|dicks]] and [[Nice Guy|nice guys]].
* The [[Succession Crisis]] in ''[[Dragon Age]]''. The Dwarf origin stories give you some pretty clear reasons for supporting each. Commoners would want to support Bhelen because he fights to end the oppressive caste system and wants to open the country more to the outside. Nobles would want to support Harrowmont because it's their father's wishes and he's more "Traditional". You also have a personal reason for doing so, Harrowmont is a ''very'' nice guy and a [[Reasonable Authority Figure]], as he fights ''hard'' to make sure the dwarf noble is given a fair trial. Bhelen meanwhile fights hard to get to the throne...to near sociopathic levels, as he's {{spoiler|rightfully}} suspected of killing his older brother and getting his other sibling blamed for it.
* Just about all of ''[[Dragon Age II]]'' which [[Up to Eleven|manages to be even grayer than its predecessor.]] The mages, chantry, and qunari are ready to tear each other apart and all of them have good people and bad people or [[Blue and Orange Morality|have different morals all together]]. All have good reasons to be pissed at the others and all have their own major flaws. It gets very difficult to see anybody as a major villain because there is really no white or black. Though all sides are closer to the black on the gray scale.
* Daein and Crimea engage in this for most of ''[[Fire Emblem]]: Radiant Dawn'' (taking it so far that you, the player, actually control a party from each country at different points, even when those two parties fight each other) before finally banding together against the unequivocally black morality of Begnion's corrupt senate.
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* ''[[Battle for Wesnoth]]'' has this in the campaign Descent into Darkness. You control a young mage apprentice who takes up dark magic (read: animating corpses) to defend his town, and is exiled. His sister, the town guard, holy knights who show up for no reason but to piss you off in the hardest mission of the campaign all wish to have him killed. He takes revenge on them. In the end, it's mostly black versus black or black versus grey (with you playing the part of a very borderline black) but until they drop an anvil on you and have you fight endlessly repeating (and rather easy) battles against random commanders, you never genuinely know who to root for.
* This is the theme of the ''[[Tales (series)]]'' series. Ever since ''[[Tales of Phantasia|Phantasia]]'', the seemingly vilest of antagonists has at minimum a lofty goal in mind, and the most noble of protagonists is either hiding something, misguided, or aiding and abetting someone who is either hiding something or misguided.
** ''[[Tales of Phantasia|Phantasia]]'': Dhaos [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|only wanted to revive his dying world of Derris-Kharlan]] using the mana seed of Aselia, but his brutal methods and refusal to explain his side until it was too late is the only thing keeping Cless and his allies from becoming [[Villain Protagonist
** ''[[Tales of Symphonia|Symphonia]]'': {{spoiler|Mithos}} simply wanted to save the world [[Knight Templar|from its own racist self]] by holding back progress and running "human ranches", and everything else he does is either for this for for {{spoiler|[[Dead Little Sister|Martel's sake]]}}. [[Idiot Hero|Lloyd's]] actions lead to much death and destruction as he changes the system, and {{spoiler|Mithos}}'s fears of technological abuse [[And Man Grew Proud|is proven right]], as the next 4000 years between ''Symphonia'' and ''Phantasia'' can attest to.
** ''[[Tales of the Abyss|Abyss]]'': {{spoiler|Van}} only wanted to [[Screw Destiny]] and destroy the Score, the near-mindless obedience of which has caused the destruction of his native Hod. {{spoiler|Mohs}} is determined to follow the Score to the letter, believing it to be the Auldrant's ''only'' path to progress. On the heroes' side, [[Spoiled Brat|Luke]] is a [[Jerkass]] extraordinaire, [[Mysterious Waif|Tear]] keeps to herself all the time, [[The Lancer|Guy]] trusts {{spoiler|Van}}, [[Hot Scientist|Jade]] was once a morally-ambiguous scientist, [[Gold Digger|Anise]] is a gold-digger {{spoiler|with good reason}}, and [[Royals Who Actually Do Something|Natalia]] is {{spoiler|revealed to be an adopted commoner}}. The only thing that kept Luke and company with [[A Lighter Shade of Gray]] is their [[Character Development]] (especially Luke's {{spoiler|traumatic}} transformation from spoiled brat to a more reasonable guy).
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** Also in ''[[Fallout: New Vegas]]'' the conflict between the New California Republic, Caesar's Legion and Mr.House is promised to be this. The NCR is supposed to be [[The Federation]] which is expanding too fast and can't properly feed or protects its country or its inhabitants, Caesar's Legion is a ruthless, but effective organization that provides absolute safety, limiting true freedom to only strong human males, and business tycoon Mr. House fell JUST short of completely protecting the Vegas area before the bombs fell and wants to protect and rebuild Vegas to its former glory, but idealizes a sterile vision of the Old World and demands large amounts of payment. To make it even more grey and gray karma will not be the main change that occurs due to your interactions between the three factions, instead it will be your reputation. [[Dark Horse Victory|Of course, there's also the option of siding with none of the groups...]]
* The ''[[Suikoden]]'' series, most notably ''[[Suikoden II]]'' is praised for this trope, presenting the characters as humans in a compromising situation, instead of personifications of good or evil. It is very rare to find a hero who is completely morally sound (except possibly the main characters), yet it is also rare to find a villain who is purely and irredeemably evil (...except [[Complete Monster|Luca Blight]]). While this keeps the stories from becoming too simple or cliche, it also gives an interesting human perspective to the bizarre and often supernatural happenings that occur.
* In ''[[Yggdra Union]]'', every major army is neither perfectly good or perfectly
* ''[[Sigma Star Saga]]'' has this in spades: you, the heroic human character, are ordered to do some pretty horrible things by your superior, while the Krill, supposedly aliens hell-bent on Earth's destruction, are actually pretty decent people (with a few glaring exceptions) who harbor no particular ill will towards Earth at all. {{spoiler|Turns out that there's a couple of [[Government Conspiracy|Government Conspiracies]] on ''both'' sides of the conflict who are the truly evil ones, and the vast majority of both humans and Krill are good.}}
* ''[[Ar tonelico]] II: Melody of Metafalica'' is a great example. Despite the fact that almost every character holds the same moral stance from beginning to end, pretty much every antagonist in the game will be considered a valuable ally at some point and nearly every ally gets a respectable stint as an antagonist. Even [[The Hero]] is arguably a [[Well-Intentioned Extremist]], and the closest character to true evil is a foreigner trying to save his homeland.
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** The [[The Revolution Will Not Be Civilized|Insurrectionists]] had legitimate grievances with the UNSC's aforementioned heavy-handedness, but extremist elements pushed them towards terrorism.
** The [[Scary Dogmatic Aliens|Covenant]]'s ruling caste is highly corrupt (and in some cases, possibly borderline insane), and the [[Killer Space Monkey|Brutes]] are [[Blood Knight|aggressive and violent by nature]], but the rest are either [[Corrupt Church|misguided by religious fervor]], [[Cannon Fodder|expendable slaves for all intents and purposes]], otherwise coerced into serving the Covenant, or simply [[Punch Clock Villain|mercenaries with no real grudge against humans]].
** The [[Neglectful Precursors|Forerunners]] genuinely wished to protect the galaxy and its inhabitants, but they grew complacent because of their extremely advanced technology, and when [[The Virus|the Flood]] came knocking, they could only fulfill their duty as Guardians of the younger species of the galaxy by taking the Flood with themselves in a desperate last resort
** The [[Zombie Apocalypse|Flood]] had killed and infected trillions of people, but their leading hive mind, [[Eldritch Abomination|Gravemind]], sincerely believes that he simply [[Utopia Justifies the Means|bring peace and prosperity]] to a galaxy which simply doesn't understand the Flood due to ignorance and fear.
* ''Der Langrisser'' definitely falls into this trope. No matter what side you choose you'll end up fighting for peace while doing awful things in the way. There's no possible path that spares you the dramatic scene and the guilt of killing someone decent. You kill {{spoiler|Vargas, who's just had a little daughter, and get to watch Leon tell his wife the sad news}} in the Light path, and you slaughter {{spoiler|Scott and his father, in a rather cruel fashion}} in all others.
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* In ''[[Samurai Warriors]]'', especially the second title, the focus is about the battle of Sekigahara. Those who side with Ishida Mitsunari will probably see him as a [[Jerkass]] who snarks a lot and is being redeemed with the values of friendship and honor; and see Tokugawa Ieyasu as a [[Fat Bastard]] who is stealing the throne of Japan while it rightfully belongs to Toyotomi Hideyori. However, those who sides with the Tokugawa know that Ieyasu is instead a 'Fat Gentleman', and he puts a lot of care to his fellow officers and people, condemning the West (especially Mitsunari's ally Kanetsugu) of using pretty words like 'honor and justice' to do underhanded things and robbing the freedom of the people. In fact, ''[[Samurai Warriors]]'' is much grayer than ''[[Dynasty Warriors]]'', the closest we can get of [[Obviously Evil]] is Fuuma Kotarou, and even he's ''still'' grayer than Dong Zhuo.
* ''[[Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater]]'' uses this as its main theme. Naked Snake is fighting in Soviet territory and nobody is really on the side they seem to be on. Betrayals, double-crossing etc. are rife. The Boss explains to Snake that there is no such thing as an absolute enemy. Wars simply happen because of circumstance as leaders and situations change: soldiers are just pawns to this. {{spoiler|Then of course Naked Snake becomes Big Boss and forms the La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo and eventually Outer Heaven. His support team, who seem kindly allies end up crooked, with the loquacious Dr. Clark performing sick experiments on Gray Fox and the tea-drinking Brit Major Zero becoming the mastermind of the La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo.}}
** [[Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots|MGS4]] further drives the point home when one realizes that the [[Amazon Brigade|Beauty & Beast Corps]] are war-scarred women outfitted with advanced nanotechnology and [[Big Bad|Liquid Ocelot]] is {{spoiler|1=[[Good All Along]] (relatively), is actually ''the'' Ocelot from MGS3 pretending to have assimilated Liquid Snake's personality, and is stopping the Patriots' plans.}} On the good guys' side, Roy Campbell's marriage to Raiden's wife Rosemary {{spoiler|was a facade meant to protect her and their supposedly-miscarried son Little John from the Patriots while Raiden is out fighting}}, and Rat Patrol 01 {{spoiler|1=is the Patriots' [[Unwitting Pawn
* Ditto for the ''[[Legacy of Kain]]'' series. By the time Defiance rolls around, you're never really sure who's supposed to be the good guy and who the bad guy.
** The Hylden have a single redeeming feature? Or are we just talking about freakish abominations not imprisoned in another universe?
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* In ''[[Rift]]'', you've got the [[Knight Templar|oh-so-devout]] Guardians versus the [[Mad Scientist|innovative and self-reliant]] Defiants, [[The Usual Adversaries|trying to thwart each other at every turn]]. Both sides have skeletons in their closets, both sides are ostensibly trying to hold off [[The End of the World as We Know It]], and it's even difficult to point out either side as [[A Lighter Shade of Grey|the darker or lighter gray]].
* ''[[Wings (video game)|Wings]]'' portrays the Allied perspective on [[World War One|WW1]] if you play as them, or the German perspective if you play as them, but doesn't seem to take sides overall.
* None of the three main factions in ''[[Sins of a Solar Empire]]'' can be considered truly good or bad. The Trade Emergency Coalition appear to be just [[Technical Pacifist
** All three sides engage in a total war against their enemies, nuking planets from orbit until everyone is dead.
* All of the major organizations in ''[[Lusternia]]''. Despite their underlying themes, they are only as good or evil as the individual characters that dwell there. The city with all the trappings of a [[Lawful Good]] [[The Federation|federation]] has [[Witch Hunt|zealot]] [[Knight Templar]]s galore: the city with all the trappings of a [[Lawful Evil]] [[The Empire|empire]] has [[The Corruption|mutated, undead]] family men and pacifists among their [[Putting on the Reich|Nazi-inspired]] troopers.
* [[Might and Magic]] VIII is full of this: it features a [[Big Bad]] whose only reason for being that is that he ''can't'' stop once he has started (no matter how much he wants to),<ref>He was programmed that way as a security measure, to keep the Kreegans from subverting him</ref>
* In ''[[Avadon]]'', both {{spoiler|Redbeard}} and {{spoiler|the Duke}} have both positive and negative traits that can make it hard to decide who to side with.
* In ''[[Dark Souls]]'', the central conflict in the game is extremely lacking in details, but what details we do know ultimately make it an example of this.
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== Web Original ==
* The online book [[Imperial Dawn]] is centered around a war between those who support democracy, and those who are moving towards an arguably better new government system. Neither side is presented as wholly good nor bad.
* ''[[There Will Be Brawl]]'': There is no good or evil. The 'good guys' are drug dealers, strippers, or [[Fallen Hero
** There's also [[Pokémon Red and Blue|Red]], the only character who is truely good. Which makes it all the more sad (and fitting) when {{spoiler|he dies by Pikmin bomb}}
* ''[[Red vs. Blue]]''. The default characterization seems to be 'incompetent jerk', with variations lying mostly in the type and degree of incompetence and/or [[
* [[Dark Dream Chronicle]]. One side has [[Cute but Psycho|the Laughing Clown]] and [[Would Hurt a Child|Darkness]] as two of its primary members. The other is trying to warp humanity for their [[Utopia Justifies the Means|Cause]] and are more than willing to use violence to get there. Oh, and it's led by the [[The Slender Man Mythos|Slender]] [[Humanoid Abomination|Man]].
* "Champions of Meridell" in ''[[Neopets]]'' is the first war between Meridell and the Darigan Citadel, after the greedy king Skarl stole the orb of prosperity from the originally [[Perfect Pacifist People]] of Darigan for his own glory and power, causing them much misery and pain and mutating them into vengeful monsters who try to destroy Meridell. There are both good and evil in both sides, with the heroic Jeran serving the villainous Skarl, and the anti-villain Darigan seeking to return the orb to his people.
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