Hellboy (2004 film)/Headscratchers: Difference between revisions
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* The ancient war between Humanity and all the supernatural races. It's a bit of a head-scratcher that in those days of yore the humans could almost beat the Elves and their allies in open warfare, all while in present day humans with modern tech and weapons are still woefully overwhelmed whenever fighting supernatural threats (IE: The whole reason for having people like Abe and Hellboy around).
** Elves are just one type of threat. The fact that they were secret, naturally, would limit the BPRD's desire to openly deal with threats, especially since a lot of the threats may have evolved too.
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*** Um...what? He's not "all like, 'Oh kill me, I can't stop you...etc'". He's ''ordering the guards to have Nuada executed'' for wanting to use the army. He's trying his damnedest to ''stop'' Nuada before he can put his plan into motion.
* I don't know why, but for some reason I was expecting Hellboy to shoot the chain when Mr Wink got caught in the grinders.
** So I wasn't the only one! Somehow it just seemed kind of dick to give Mr Wink lines (sort of) right before he gets offed. [[What Measure Is a Non
*** We totally need a [[Fix Fic]] for this...
*** Not to mention what a [[Nightmare Fuel]] death it was. Would the heroes have stood by and let a more humanlike character die so horribly?
*** They did in the first movie, so yes.
*** I thought it was entirely within character. The character of Hellboy being kind of a dick. Wink is still a serious threat even ''with'' one arm.
**** Indeed, and Wink was also partially responsible for the deaths of several BPRD agents (who were probably Hellboy's friends). If some popcorn had been handy Hellboy probably would have munched it as the gears made Wink tartar, and I wouldn't blame him.
* In TGA, why does Nuada not kill Hellboy when he's focused on the plant and right above him?
** Nuada's still hoping for the 'Join me and together we can rule the galaxy' thing at that moment. He doesn't abandon that until the ''end'' of this particular scene.
* Why does the movie BPRD send [[Red Shirt
** Given the way director Manning [[What the Hell, Hero?|calls Hellboy out]] for indirectly causing the death of three agents via his poor leadership skills, I would assume that BPRD death rates weren't that bad prior to the first movie.
*** I assume that the BRPD can handle ''most'' of the problems they come up against; but against serious Elder Gods/black-market mojo, they're still only human. Hey, the resident demonspawn has a hard time handling those threats!
*** Yeah, they didn't really seem to be too hard pressed about wrestling down the angry troll-ish monster and giant octopus monster in the background near the beginning of TGA while the metahumans were otherwise occupied. Sure they were kinda being tossed around by the latter, but Manning and Abe didn't really seem to be too concerned while they walked past.
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** And Nuada's a genocidal fanatic. One of the greatest flaws of the movie is that both sides suck. Who do we root for?
*** You root for the sexy elf with the bitchin' fight scenes, that's who you root for.
*** Well, to be fair, only the fantasy creatures remembered the treaty - [[Humans Are
*** It seems that the majority of the magical creature also seem to operate under the assumption that they've had a good run and it may be time for them to just fade from the scene and go out gracefully.
**** The fantasy creatures didn't do much to enforce that treaty really, just falling back further and further and hiding. They weren't all lining up behind Nuada to follow him either.
**** I thought it was kind of weird, just the absolute about-face that the humans do after the elemental dies. I mean, ''what?'' I know the movie was making a point, but in all honesty both sides kind of sucked. I cheered for the humans, though, because [[Humans Are
***** This troper can tell you that it's not that much of a stretch.
**** It seems that the fantasy creatures had a bad case of [[Honor Before Reason]], honoring their side of the deal despite the humans blatantly breaking theirs.
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*** Pretty much everything you say is true: however, Nuada's avowed solution to the above problem was not "make war on humanity until they surrender", it was "make war on humanity ''until humanity ceases to exist''". Thus, 'genocidal'. As for 'fanatic', even Nuada wouldn't argue that point.
**** Did he ever actually say that? Certainly he intended to control humans, but when did he say he wanted to destroy the entire human race?
**** The humans had already been seriously killed off by the Golden Army the first time. Remember what happened after that. [[Humans Are
** You're not supposed to root for the humans or the fair folk. You're supposed to root for Hellboy.
** What you have is a condition called "sociopathy", for which you should seek psychiatric counseling.
* I don't get this argument at all. HUMANITY DOESN'T EVEN KNOW THE TREATY EXISTS ANYMORE, how exactly can we be expected to keep treaty we don't know exists, to preserve mythical creatures we dont know exists, under the threat of a war we didn't even know had occurred!
** On that note, how DID we forget? Yeah all right, human-kind wasn't the best at preserving history back in the day, but you'd think something like that would stick.
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** On the subject of Liz destroying the Crown, I assumed that it was only possible for the person who technically owned the thing to destroy it, or authorise its destruction (that being Hellboy at the time).
*** Nuala didn't trust the BPRD enough to hand the crown piece over, so Liz never had the opportunity to destroy it.
* Rasputin wanted Hellboy to open the gate to the Void. He must have needed Hellboy alive, otherwise he would have killed Hellboy while he was unconscious (following Liz's flameout). Why then did
** Given what Hellboy is, and what we see him survive, its likely that the spikes would merely have disabled him.
** While not made clear in the movie, it is said repeatedly in the comics that only the hand is needed to free the Ogru Jahad as {{spoiler|it is the hand of the creature who sealed them away.}}
*** It's also said in "Box Full of Evil" that, if one wanted to cut off the Right Hand of Doom and use it, they have to do it while Hellboy is still alive.
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* In the beginning of the movie, the king ordered Nuada's execution knowing that it would also kill Nuala. Nuada even asks Nuala "You too, sister?", and she nods. So, since Nuala had already accepted that stopping Nuada was worth her own life ''as far back as the beginning of the movie'', why didn't she just cut her own throat before Nuada could finish killing her father? Or his royal guards?
** Because she's an [[Can't Argue
** Because there is a huge difference between simply letting someone kill you and actually sticking a knife into your own heart.
*** Given that sticking a knife in her own heart is exactly how she chooses to end the movie, its a legitimate question to ask why she didn't do it while it would still have been in time to ''save'' Nuada's victims (especially her ''own father''), as opposed to merely ''avenging'' them.
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** Having watched the movie last night, I seem to remember him just telling the heroes that he demands the crown piece if they "ever want to see her again." Presumably, he could've kept her locked up somewhere for life.
*** I'm fairly sure this is it. Also, as a troper above mentioned, Nuada was probably betting on the general chaos preventing Our Heroes from thinking clearly.
** You've struck upon the question that sets the Nuada's [[Draco in Leather Pants|leather pants]] on fire. Nuada threatens his sister because he knows that Hellboy and the others are kinder, better, less murderous people than he is. He's betting on them wanting to keep Nuala alive more than they want him dead.
* Why didn't Nuala warn Hellboy & co that she is linked with Nuada earlier, rather than just "Oh, Abe. Bytheway Nuada will find this place 'cause of me. Tough luck."? Or Abe could tell the rest when he found out, rather than telling Hellboy right before fighting Nuada.
*** You can't blame her for being cautious, particularly when you've seen that the people who took you in are divided about it; they may decide to just kill you and get it over with. I'm not sure why Abe decided not to tell the others, but presumably he 1) didn't want to get her in trouble and 2) was also busy mooning over her.
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** Only the army was said to be indestructible, not the crown.
** It's also possible that the crown only becomes vulnerable when it's rightful owner agrees to destroy it. By the time Liz burns it, it belongs to Hellboy and he doesn't protest too much when she melts it.
** This. Also, Liz can burn anything. ANYTHING. Her fire was (in the comics) almost enough to free the Ogdru Jahad. She's not just [[Playing
* Right after he said he needed it, Abe's breathing ''thing'' disappeared for the rest of the movie.
** He replaced it with those contact lens things.
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** Maybe it's more of a comfort issue, he doesn't ''need'' it but prefers it at times because it's easier only deciding until later to stop using it in order to "toughen up" so to speak.
* The fact the elves were such wimps bugs the hell out of me. "Oh well, maybe we should fade away." WTF?! I can understand not taking the guy up on his anti-human crusade to kill everything, but resigning yourself to extinction is just stupid. Why are they keeping the [[Masquerade]] in the first place anyway?
** I think the point is that all beings are created with strengths and weaknesses; the humans have that whole never-gonna-be-satisfied thing, the elves are destined to fade away [[The Lord of the Rings]] style. The whole reason Nuada could actually try to change things is that he was obviously off his rocker.
** Thinking of the troll market, it seemed they still had a vibrant community, so at least ''some'' fae didn't seem destined to just fade away. What this debate needed was someone to [[Take a Third Option]] and remind humanity about the ancient treaty and push back a little. Drop the masquerade even. It would at ''least'' insure they are remembered even if they're destined to disappear.
* What the heck were Liz's travel clothes made of? Or did her Fire Resistance have an Aura Of Invincibility extended to her clothing when either she had (slightly) better control over her powers, or [[Plot Armor|when the plot didn't require]] [[Clothing Damage]]? (If there's a trope for the Aura Of Costume Invincibility, I couldn't find it. Do we even have this one?)
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** Same here...
** And me.
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** It doesn't help that its corpse is probably the most beautiful thing that city's seen in a long while. Or that Nuada basically [[Moral Event Horizon|sacrificed the forest gods to extinction just to get under HB's skin]].
* Was I the only person who was kind of disappointed by The Golden Army? This isn't a case of [[Complaining About Shows You Don't Like]]; I thought the first ''Hellboy'' was an interesting little movie, and was expecting Mr. del Toro to really hit the second one out of the park. Now it looked spectacular, no argument there. The Elemental fight alone probably justified the cost of my ticket. But the characters, who were so well-defined in the first one, seemed . . . off. Manning, who seemed to have mellowed a little bit by the end of the last one, was back to being an obstructive jerk. Hellboy, after more or less accepting Myers, has him transferred to a frozen wasteland. Krauss looked awesome, and I wish they'd given him any sort of vaguely plausible reason for his sudden change of heart at the end of the film. I realize I'm a minority here, but The Golden Army was a very frustrating film for me.
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*** Heck, he's not the only one. Abe and Liz had no problem picking off those little buggers one by one as they flew around in a veritable cloud around them (thank goodness that Plot Armor prevented them from completely swarming Abe like they did to the Muggles), and Liz at least once shot one as it was flying directly into Abe's face from point blank range while standing directly in front of him. The [[Red Shirt]] was doing pretty well too.
* The [[Always Save the Girl]] moments in the sequel bug me, even when the one being saved is a guy. As noted in the main article, Liz choosing Hellboy over 'the world' ''kinda'' makes sense because Hellboy has a proven record of [[Screw Destiny|avoiding his destiny.]] But then a few moments later Abe gives Nuada the means to ''commit genocide against the entire human race'' so he can get back the princess (not so he can save her life, mind, so ''he personally'' can have her back, given that the Prince obviously can't harm the Princess without hurting himself.) [[Always Save the Girl]] usually results in a little questionable morality; in this case it's taken to an extreme and Abe comes across as a full-blown selfish moron ready to sacrifice everyone and everything for the sake of getting his potential girlfriend back. Seriously, Abe, screw you.
** In all fairness, the Golden Army was kinda underwhelming. They're much stronger than a human and can self-repair to some degree, but they didn't seem too fast or agile and one wonders how their ability to pull themselves back together would hold up to being melted into seventy times seventy golden puddles from a hail of
*** That would be another [[Just Bugs Me]]; I'm guessing that Golden Army was pretty impressive when the opposition was using spears and shields. In a modern context? Not so much. The Prince's plan was pretty hopeless. But that's beside the point; ''in story'', it's treated like a terrible threat to human survival, and yet Abe Sapien potentially screws everybody over for the sake of getting back a woman he barely knows. That's less romantic and more sociopathic.
**** Neither; it's desperate, pure and simple. Love makes you stupid, after all, or at least prone to incredibly bad decisions.
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* Why on earth did Johann even need a gym locker?
** Del Toro says he was removing a polishing kit.
* Did the movie ever explain that destroying the crown would disable the Golden Army, because if not there should have been a little thought put into what would happen if the [[Nigh Invulnerable]] [[Mecha
** The Golden Army only even move if someone is actively commanding them to. They're not just "leaderless," they're totally inert unless they're being given direct commands.
* When Nuada is fighting his father's guards and one of them manages to pop him in the face, making he and Nuala bleed from the nose, the blood is red. Any time Nuada and/or Nuala get cut for the rest of the movie their blood is golden, like tree sap. Do they just bleed two different colors?
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*** Buy them time to do what, exactly?
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