Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards: Difference between revisions

 

== Literature ==

* Drizzt Do'Urden, R.A. Salvatore's famous character, both subverts this and falls victim to it. Frequently, he or one of his companions completely thrashes a powerful but unprepared wizard, but there are rare occasions where Drizzt is nearly dispatched by wizards who have, as yet, posed no threat to him, exemplified by his being duped into stumbling into a realm populated entirely by demon lords by a Quadratic Wizard in ''The Pirate King''.

** On of the best is when Artemis Entreri, Drizzt's [[Evil Counterpart]] and one of the deadliest assassins in the world, is put up against a battle wizard he doesn't manage to catch off guard. Said wizard proceeds to utterly school him without using a spell above fourth level. The ''Advanced Dungeons & Dragons'' versions of Stoneskin (have to be hit a certain number of times before you take damage) and Flame Shield (when you hit someone, the attack [[Attack Reflector|hits you]]) is pretty hard to beat.

* Also subverted in Stephen Brusts's ''[[Dragaera|Jhereg]]'' series with some degree of regularity, as demonstrated by the signature quote: "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style."

* ''[[The Dresden Files]]'': [[Averted]]. Magic is portrayed as a tool, and in some cases, a weapon. And the more magic you have at your disposal, the [[Walking Techbane|less likely any modern technology is to work]] while you're around. With enough time and effort, more magical energy can be built up for more powerful spells, but no human can really do anything more impressive than technology already can unless they have the help of a supernatural being, and the most effective way to kill a wizard is with a [[Muggles Do It Better|long range rifle]].

 

 

* ''[[Dungeons and Dragons|Dungeons & Dragons]]'' The actual point at which wizards overtake fighters is somewhere between level one (when they get "Color Spray") and level five (when they get "[[Fireballs]]" and "Haste"), depending on who you ask. Either way, at low levels attack spells are both too weak and too few, the main advantages are in buff, incapacitation, area denial or utility magic. It also depends on the type of encounter -- one strong opponent or many weaklings.

** Another problem is that as primary casters gain levels, they gain access to spells that allow them to do pretty much anything. A Wizard, Cleric, or Druid with access to the huge list of spells published for them can fill almost any party role -- often better than the classes designed for that role -- while a fighter gains variations and slight improvements on "hit enemy with stick". So it's even more than "square", since casters have growing effects themselves (usually in more than one variable, too), number of times these can be used ''and'' flexibility.

** Fighting Men progressed at a faster rate than Magic Users. The difference in XP progression was later (3.0+) deemed ineffective, largely due to when game designers learned basic math and common sense. They realized that given the same amount of EXP the wizard was at best one level behind the fighter, and later actually progressed faster. Getting rid of this also fixed broken multiclasses.

** ''AD&D'' has rules about followers, so a high-level warrior can easily attract a small army. Sadly, it was often ignored, especially since it required the character to own a keep. Warriors also got [[Hit Points]] from high Constitution while wizards didn't. AD&D2 class XP awards, quite sensibly, altered class balance depending on the game style: in relatively peaceful ones, utility spellcasting allows wizards and priests a little XP all the time, in war/dungeon warriors get XP bonus for each defeated opponent.

** [[Geist: The Sin Eaters|Sin-Eaters]] in are also very literally quadratic. Each Key opens up new ways to use all of your existing Manifestations. (Also, Keys are ''cheap'' and have linear XP cost, unlike all other splats' power boosts.)

* Played straight in ''[[Dark Heresy]]'', as generally until 4th level a Psyker gets spells such as Cheat at Poker and Summon Local Vermin. Once a Psyker gets to Psychic level 3 (available at 4th level) such as Punch Through a Tank with Your Bare Hands, Warp Reality So That You Can Ricochet Your Bullet Off of a Random Frying Pan and Kill the Enemy General from 5 km Away and Telekinetically Pull the Pins Out of Other People's Grenades While Still Attached to Them. Only subverted in that in casting those spells you have a greater chance of getting you soul eaten by daemons and killing the rest of your party because you got turned into a daemonhost.

*** Death is actually the lesser evil here, as it only damns the psyker himself. On the other hand, demonic possession means dropping an unbound daemonhost (a monster from the top shelf of the bestiary, with more magic power than humans can possibly attain) in the middle of the party. This is not only a near guaranteed [[Total Party Kill]] but a potential planet-level threat, well capable of undoing the achievements of a whole campaign.

* Played slightly less straight in ''[[Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay]]''. Wizards get quite a lot of useful utility spells, but none that can break campaigns, and you need a very high-level wizard indeed to get the ability to reliably deal more damage with spells than the party warrior. Becoming a high-level wizard basically ''requires'' DM intervention due to the steep trappings costs (required possessions before you can become one) and the required roleplaying aspects. In addition, wizards in ''[[Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay]]'' suffer from pretty much the exact same problems as psykers in ''[[Dark Heresy]]'', to say nothing of the fact that all the filthy peasants the party interacts with hates you because the Empire's official religion teaches that [[Burn the Witch|wizards must be burned on bonfires]], and most of them are illiterate and can't read your 'please do not burn by order of the Emperor' papers.

* In ''[[Do DT]]'', a tabletop RPG from Sweden, mages can become unimaginably powerful later into the game, once they've spent a large amount of experience points in magic. The way magic works, they have few direct damage spells, but the effects and usefulness of the spells more than makes up for it. That warrior who specced enough to one-hit a smaller dragon is giving you trouble? Mind-flay him to death, scare him to madness or maybe turn him into a plant and then set it on fire? Easily done.

** In fact, since the amount of magic is determined by a dice-roll with a set chance for an extra roll, you can in theory have a mage with an arbitrary amount of magic (this troper had a mage with double the "average" amount, with all special stuff added he could have an effective magic amount of about 233, whilst normal is 50-ish).

* ''[[Exalted]]'', depending on your [[Your Mileage May Vary|mileage]], is at least an aversion, but could arguably count as an inversion - the three levels of Sorcery are largely capped, in terms of sheer power, at the level of Essence at which they become available (3, 4 and 5, respectively), and one cannot learn Sorcery more advanced than your type of Exaltation <ref> Barring a one-of-a-kind artefact from the first age or making a literal deal with the devil(s) and become an Akuma.</ref>. You can however learn martial arts more powerful than your own Exaltation, and martial artists become exponentially more powerful as they combine more styles. Not to mention that high-end martial art styles are ridiculous in and of themselves - creating and curing spiritual diseases, becoming a proto-Primordial, dragging your enemies into your own mind where you literally ''cannot lose''... As described in the Scroll of the Monk;

{{quote|"A mundane martial arts master can split a brick and jump over a hedge.

** Ironically, Baldur's Gate 2 has certain features that allow a fighter/barbarian character to actually become devastating, even when solo, without violating game mechanics. One can use Imoen, a thief, and buy a master thief potion, then pick pocket the Kangaxx character, pre-lich transformation, and gain the Ring of Gaxx, a powerful ring of regeneration. Then gain the ring a second time after the defeat post-lich, and wear two of them simultaneously, for a very powerful regeneration effect. Combined with the boots of haste and the spell-rebounding cloak and a powerful armor, the figher/barbarian becomes an unstoppable juggernaut otherwise soloing through the game, even on the hardest difficulty.

* ''[[Might and Magic]] 6'' & ''7'' plays with this trope. Warriors tend to be better in the beginning until the mages get access to their stronger spells and enough mana to be able to use it reliable, at which point magic users outshines them. However at the end game you gain access to blasters which make both equals in damage dealing but the warriors come out on top again. Clerics and Sorcerers still have a fair few [[Game Breaker|Game Breakers]], however.

* In the ''[[Kingdom Hearts]]'' series:

** In the first half of ''[[Kingdom Hearts (video game)|Kingdom Hearts]]'', [[Donald Duck]], the party mage, is all but useless because of his [[Squishy Wizard|squishiness]] and the relative weakness of his spells (except Heal, everyone loves Heal), while Goofy, the party bruiser, is great at bashing stuff from the get go. Because of this, many players will just switch the duck out in favor of the [[Guest Star Party Member]] of whatever world you're on. Later in the game, though, because of [[Leaked Experience]] and the new spells you acquire, Donald becomes a force to be reckoned with, and becomes the preferred party member to keep on while Goofy winds up dying a ''lot''. (But he still ''does'' have MP Gift).

** Played relatively straight in ''[[Kingdom Hearts II]]''. Picking the Magic-based build during the introduction segments will be a disadvantage early on (especially since you start with absolutely no spells), but sticking with it will make your magic noticeably more powerful toward the end of the game. Conversely, choosing the offense or defense builds don't make a huge difference in the damage you give/take in the long run. If you DO pick Magic as your main focus, you'll be able to shave off multiple health bars from endgame Nobodies in a magic combo, your Explosion finisher (which bases damage on Magic) becomes even ''more'' of a [[Game Breaker]] than it is with a physical build, and [[Beehive Barrier|Reflega]] [[More Dakka|turns anything foolish enough to challenge you into Swiss cheese in a single cast]]. Should you use Magic while in Final form with a Magic build, [[Kill'Em All|you'll see this trope at it's prime]].

** And in ''[[Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep|Birth by Sleep]]'', it's played straight, but not in the way that you would expect. [[Mighty Glacier|Terra]], [[Fragile Speedster|Ventus]], and [[Squishy Wizard|Aqua]] are arguably equally powerful given [[Dishing Out Dirt|their]] [[Blow You Away|unique]] [[Making a Splash|skills]]. The characters differ not just in power levels but in leveling up and learning curve. Terra is the easiest to learn due to having higher HP quicker and being more melee oriented, something that most people familiar with the ''[[Kingdom Hearts]]'' series would know. Ventus meanwhile is also primarily a melee, but is faster and has a steeper learning curve than Terra, but not by much. Aqua meanwhile is primarily ranged fighting (something people who aren't magic enthusiasts or fans of Xigbar in ''Days'' probably aren't used to) and has a steeper learning curve, but she levels up faster than Terra and Ventus do at parts of their respective campaigns. So not only has [[Tetsuya Nomura]] [[Word of God|stated his recommendation]] to play through with the Terra -> Ventus -> Aqua order will make sense story-wise, but also, gameplay wise. Some fans have said that Terra is easy mode, Ventus is standard, and Aqua is Proud/Hard mode (however, there is a [[Harder Than Hard|critical mode]] being added into the international release).

* The ''[[Fire Emblem]]'' series averts this, because ''everyone's'' growth is technically linear. Because magic works almost identically to the way weapons work, the variety that any particular class has partially depends on what weapons it's allowed to use (along with stat caps, movement, and class skills). The advantage of Mages is they're versatile in that they can attack from close-up or at range. However, most are standard [[Glass Cannon|Glass Cannons]], especially females (as males are more often the [[Jack of All Stats]]). This is even more notable on later games where both enemies and allies get decent resistance. For example...

** ''Radiant Dawn'', and to a extent the previous game, averts this. Most enemies, even ''[[Mighty Glacier|Knights]]'', have decent resistance and mages have been further [[Nerf|nerfed]] from their already weak ''Path of Radiance'' selves by losing their good speed. The extra damage they deal to [[Kemonomimi|Laguz]] becomes a borderline [[Useless Item]] as they rarely face any. To top it off, they retain their downsides, such as weapons with low Might and having less Movement that regular physical classes. Even worse, few enemies are mages, making their high resistance worthless. (For what little it matters, several physical units on your team have good resistance but nothing to use it against.)

** Building on its predecessor, ''[[Dragon Quest IX]]'' inverts this trope hard. Low level attack spells don’t do considerably more damage than any properly equipped physical class, and it only gets worse from there -- by the end of the game, a gladiator with an axe can do more damage to a single target ''or'' a group ''at no MP cost'' than an equivalent caster using expensive spells. The best strategy for most bosses looks like an episode of [[Dragon Ball|Dragon Ball Z]]<ref>And since the artwork is all by Akira Toriyama, it really does look ''exactly'' like Dragon Ball Z...</ref>, with physical characters boosting Tension for several turns then unleashing hell. (Oddly enough, the game gives your main character an exclusive skill that boosts another character’s Tension, meaning the best possible support character is you.) Multi-target attack spells can soften up multiple enemies, but that generally only saves you a turn or two, and your physical characters can get multi-hit weapons that do roughly the same amount of damage, though they better spend their time dropping one enemy per round each. The single-target support spells rarely do enough good to spend a turn casting them. Most support classes only get party-wide buffs that increase agility and different types of defense, and those matter in very few battles. When you beat the story boss and start facing the real challenges, you don’t even bother with most support spells as bosses frequently Disrupt all positive status effects off you, and their bigger nukes will bypass defense/resistance/reflect buffs anyway. You only care about healing and resurrection.

** ''[[Dragon Quest Monsters]] Caravan Heart'' plays this straight, as the early spells (Blaze, Fireball) can be inferior to a monster's raw attacking power, and you only have six spell slots per monster. However, those six spells carry over for every reformation, including being powered up, so once a monster has Thordain or Explodet (which hits all enemies), Heal All, and Revive, they're set.

* ''[[Phantasy Star Online]]'' plays this straight overall, but it's a long road getting there. Forces start by being barely able to kill a room full of enemies before needing to go recharge their mana, while physical types have a far easier time of it. The Forces quickly outgrow their Hunter and Ranger counterparts, playing the trope straight, but hit a brick wall in Ultimate difficulty where the enemies' magic resistance gets a huge boost, subverting the trope. However, if you keep playing that Force and level up their high level area magic, you can easily clear an entire room in seconds without suffering a single attack, while a Hunter or Ranger would be swamped by the sheer number of foes. Even better, a Force with high level Jellen and Deband can raise their defense so high and the reduce enemies' attack so low that even a Force, weak armor and all, is in no real danger.

** Definitely subverted in ''[[Phantasy Star]] III''. Most characters have techniques; the handful who don't, including Rhys, your PC in the first generation, start out as competent warriors but by mid-generation are dishing out the most damage, hands-down. Only healing techniques tend to be useful; combat techniques are far outclassed by standard attacks.

* Varies throughout the ''[[Final Fantasy]]'' series:

** A preface to this: In many games in the series (''[[Final Fantasy V]]'', ''[[Final Fantasy Tactics]]'', and ''[[Final Fantasy X]]'', to name three), any character can get more or less any ability, and the most powerful characters can [[Min-Maxing|cherry-pick a build from combat ''and'' magical skills]].

** Oddly enough, reversed in the original ''[[Final Fantasy I]]''. Black Mages are indeed capable of casting high-level magic to quickly wipe out the non-boss enemies, but Fighters, Black Belts, and Thieves can hit single enemies much harder in the late/end-game. In addition, because most bosses (read: Fiends and the [[Big Bad]] Chaos) have very high magic defense, Black Mages are generally reduced to casting Haste and Temper on the physical damage dealers, and then standing back while they have at it. White Mages don't even factor in here, except in, you know, keeping everyone else alive.

*** White Mages are actually better tanks than fighters. They have the Ruse spell, which raises evade by 80. Cast it a couple of times and almost no enemy can hit you. With careful leveling, they can do damage comparable to fighters.

*** Played more or less straight in the [[Enhanced Remake|GBA remake]], though. Unless you get the [[Infinity+1 Sword|Ultima Weapon]], at which point Warriors become gods.

**** Even more reversed in the PSP and Iphone Remake, where Warriors get Barbarian Swords...which is ALWAYS even MORE powerful then the Ultima Weapon, while the best the Black Mage gets is...a shiny new dagger. However, the lack of new effective offense spells makes Mages incredibly useless as anything besides support, especially since endgame Red Mages can do anything the Black Mage can, and more.

*** Oddly enough though, one of the most powerful classes mid-game (at least in the DS version) is actually a Geomancer... Despite how they were often a little unpredictable and worthless in most games, and frequently tossed aside as either a joke character or only used for a few semi-decent abilities, then ignored. Despite that they attack with, of all things, [[Improbable Weapon User|BELLS]], they actually can deal nice physical damage when being dual-wielded (mostly due to the fact that Dual-Wielding is utterly ''broken'' in that game) and their special attack (which literally ''has absolutely NO limits'' to how much you can use it) may be somewhat unpredictable, but they actually deal consistent magic damage and bypass magic defenses, along with not getting as much [[Useless Useful Spell|worthless status-inducing effects]]. It may actually not be that uncommon for a Geomancer to get lucky and be the first person to hit for damage [[Dragonball Z|in the Vegeta Level]].

** ''[[Final Fantasy V]]'' plays this straight. Mage-type characters will eventually be able to turn the party immune to physical attacks, give everyone reflect, reset the battle, take double turns, double cast, and so on. Physically oriented characters get maybe four abilities that don't suck, and to rub it in, one of them (dual wield + sword magic + x hit) depends on use of magic.

*** As things go, by endgame the three active physical skills that don't suck (RapidFire, Finisher, and Jump) pretty much become your bread and butter due to the sheer damage you can do with them, especially since you can only use two skills at a time anyways (unless you're a mime).

** ''[[Final Fantasy VI]]'' both averts and plays this straight at the end of the game. Magic is amazingly powerful, but the vast number of ways [[Game Breaker|to break the game]] still makes fighter characters very useful. A favorite is the Genji Glove + Offering combo, which allows characters to attack eight times a turn while wielding such high-damage weapons as the Atma Weapon, the Valiant Knife, and Setzer's dice. The best way to deal damage, however, remains Magic Box + Quick + Ultima.

** For example: most classes must rely on what they find, buy, salvage or wish for in order to proceed for success. Wizards can take random junk, put it in piles, and zap it with a polymorph spell until it turns into something they need. Other classes will likely have to use limited-charge wands of polymorph to do this reliably.

* Because of it takes a good deal of inspiration from Nethack, [[Ancient Domains of Mystery|ADOM]] is just as bad. A good mage will be able to fire elemental blasts of all kinds, death rays, summmon minions (which you can eat, meaning infinite food), teleport at will, carry hundreds of thousands of pounds, replicate any number of rare tools at will, and so on. ''And'' because they're pretty much guaranteed to become a [[Magic Knight]] anyway, they're great at melee also.

* ''[[Star Ocean]]'', at least the first two games (and the PSP [[Enhanced Remake|Enhanced Remakes]], which are based off of the PSX version of Second Evolution), averts this because the melee characters are able to surround a boss and stun-lock them, killing them faster than the mages can fire off most of their spells. A powerful party would often consist of three melees and one healbot, or two melees, one healbot, and one ranged fighter. Despite this, offensive-mage-type characters have their uses...they can ''initiate'' a stun-lock sequence since the spells cause an enemy to stagger. Plenty of time to surround a tough boss and just beat them up.

** Also, the Healbot can be ordered to just use a one-hit weak-spell that does nothing but hit once and causes a stagger.

* The ''[[Heroes of Might and Magic]]'' series embraces this trope. Might-oriented heroes are good in short games or as scouts or garrison leaders, but heroes with a lot of Spell Power throwing level 5 spells tend to dominate the late game. This is reflected in the different types of town: Those associated with Mighty heroes like the Barbarian build up fast, but those associated with extreme magic users tend to take longer to build up but get the most powerful creatures like Titans or Black Dragons.

** But at an even later stage, the balance shifts again: despite mage being able to wipe out a small army with one spell, it will be merely a drop in a bucket for the endgame legions, while Might heroes empower each and every creature on their side. Though of course, buffing them with ''spells'' is quite viable too.

** ''Morrowind'' has the infamous alchemy/enchanting bugs, where a player with a good level of competence in one of those skills could make potions or enchantments to make them better at making potions and enchantments. Recursion ensued and pretty soon one was more powerful than the Daedra lords themselves (literally, in the case of Bloodmoon). Meanwhile, one could only get a fraction of the power if they went purely-melee, depending on loot items.

*** It's worth noting, however, that alchemy and enchantments are far better at serving melee characters than magical ones. Offensive magic is serviceable in the original game and high-level buffs can make you all but invincible, but by the expansions you're doing too little damage too slowly to enemies who have a very large chance of resisting, absorbing, or even reflecting your spells, while you have a very small mana pool that doesn't recharge naturally. By Tribunal most spells are completely useless, though enchanting and alchemy remain powerful throughout the three games.

*** [http://lesswrong.com/lw/14h/the_hero_with_a_thousand_chances/zza?c=1&context=1#comments “I like to call this a 'Morrowind Singularity.'"]

*** Of course, in Morrowind it was possible to create spells. It wasn't difficult to make a fireball extra potent or give it an insanely large blast radius...

** Played straighter in ''Daggerfall'' where spells could be learned or created that would scale up with level. In later games, spells created within the limits of an early mage's magicka supply would become obsolete later, and clutter the spell list while more powerful versions would have to be sought out. But in all games, weapon skills are generally more efficient means of damaging, and buffing a more efficient use of magicka.

** Played somewhat straight with ''Skyrim'', mostly due to the way the system works; Mages can summon something to take the brunt of damage for them (two, with a Master Conjuration Perk), have alteration to act as their armor if necessary, and master level destruction spells can wipe out areas once you deal with the issue of having low health (usually dealing with the issue takes the place of summoning). NPCs are all shown to be weaker in comparison to a high level PC regardless of class, but a Mage power leveling Destruction will find himself at a top tier (relative to the low level he would have) rather quickly, allowing him to level support magic skills at leisure, whereas a warrior power leveling their weapon will find themselves being a squishy warrior, unable to properly defend against the enemies they fight unless they go back to an easy part and power level an armor skill.

 

== Web Comics ==

** Note that Vaarsuvius contributed more to the battle than the entire rest of the order together (except Belkar, who got ahold of an at-will fireball attack), and V only fled after the battle was already lost and invisibility was the only spell s/he had left.

** In the commentaries to one of the books, Rich admits that Vaarsuvius is, by this point (the party is around level 13 or 14) pretty much a living god, capable of single-handedly affecting the outcome of the battle. Having him/her get knocked off the wall and be unable to rejoin the others was an intentional plot to limit V's impact.

** In another of the books, the Order (who are based on D&D 3.5e) meet and fight their 4e counterparts. When V realised that mages had been largely nerfed to try and balance out the classes, s/he was of the opinion that wizardry would quickly die out in the 4e world, as nobody would spend years or decades studying the arcane arts when they could become just as powerful by bumming around in a bad neighbourhood.

** And during the second battle against the Linear Guild, the [[Fan Nickname|CoDzilla]] idea of overpowered clerics and druids was explored when the gnome druid was able to take on half the Order, and only the cleric Durkon was able to match him in both physical and magical combat.

{{reflist}}

[[Category:Red Fish Blue Fish]]

[[Category:Power At a Price]]

[[Category:Laws and Formulas]]

[[Category:Wizards and Witches]]

[[Category:Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards]]