Strawman Has a Point: Difference between revisions

This may be caused by [[Creator Provincialism]], [[Did Not Do the Research|Not Doing the Research]], or just plain bad writing. It has also been known to result from [[Values Dissonance]], in the case of works written in a culture/era different from that of the audience (e.g. "strawman" arguments against things like racism), or from the audience and the work falling at very different places on the [[Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism]] (see example from which the Ebert page quote was drawn, but also almost any instance where a work promotes [[Straw Vulcan|love, faith, emotion, etc. over logic]] and depicts the logicians as "the bad guys").

 

 

 

And sometimes the author [[Shown Their Work|did in fact do their work on their opponent's position]] and presented the opposite viewpoint in a favorable light... then failed to present a similar argument for the side they supported, usually because they thought that their position was a priori right and/or didn't need much explaining. [[Springtime for Hitler|This has the side effect of creating a reverse strawman]] (ironman?). [[Death of the Author]] or [[Word of God]] on what the moral was supposed to be usually reveals this. Machiavelli's ''The Prince'' is the textbook example of this, though he might have just been penning satire.

In rare cases this can be a deliberate choice and the author might [[Word of God|confirm after the fact]] that the audience was indeed meant to see the words of the straw man as having a grain of truth. When applied to old works, it can at times be the result of viewers [[Flanderization|Flanderizing]] a character in retrospect due to [[Values Dissonance]].

 

 

If the Strawman's points are taken up by fans, while conveniently ignoring canonical evidence and arguments against it, there is much potential for [[Draco in Leather Pants]].

 

'''[[No Real Life Examples Please]]'''

 

== Advertising ==

** The [[Memetic Badass|Raikage]] is painted as a stubborn-headed git for refusing to forgive and rescind the 'kill on sight' order of Sasuke for the suspected murder of his brother. The manga tries to make it so that the Raikage's desire for revenge is clouding his personal judgment to the point where he's willing to start a [[Cycle of Revenge]], but the fact remains that A) Sasuke is still at large, working for a terrorist organization, B) Raikage's brother and other such targets hold the equivalent of a WMD, C) Raikage isn't the only person who wants Sasuke's head.

** The whole argument of a [[Cycle of Revenge]] as consequence falls apart when considering that Sasuke just started it by making an ''unprovoked attack'' on the Cloud Village. The Raikage even makes the perfectly valid point to Naruto of: "I'm going to kill Sasuke, it will be up to you that it ends there!"

* In ''[[Yu Yu Hakusho]]'', the Koorime are made to appear to us as heartless bitches who would willingly condemn a child to death just because his mother [[Human Mom Nonhuman Dad|made him with someone]] [[Fantastic Racism|from a different race]] (albeit a demon) and he looks "a little" [[Creepy Child|creepy]] at birth. Even his sister, by far the purest creature from the series, thinks their whole kind deserves to be killed for what they did to her, her mother, and her brother. The problem is, their point is completely valid. All the male offspring so far have killed many Koorime, who can only reproduce at intervals of over a century. And Hiei was only [[Retired Monster|saved]] from ''staying'' a [[Complete Monster]] by [[The Power of Friendship]].

* In ''[[Black Cat (Manga)|Black Cat]]'', [[Ax Crazy|Baldor]]'s desire to murder [[Pyromaniac|Kyoko]] after her [[Heel Face Turn]] is supposed to be a sign of how demented he is, which will make us root all the more when [[The Hero|Train]] fights him and his partner, [[Handicapped Badass|Kranz]], to save her. Problem is, Kyoko, pre [[Heel Face Turn]], was not only a member of a group determined to plunge the world into chaos, but a [[Psycho for Hire]] who enjoyed burning people alive from the inside out, while ''[[Interplay of Sex and Violence|kissing them]]''. On top of that, her switching sides is motivated, not by the realization that what she's doing is wrong, but from fear of [[Big Bad]] [[Bad Boss|Creed]], and a crush on Train. End result, Baldor comes off looking ''far'' more reasonable than he ever should when he recommends they just kill her. Happens again when one of the heroes tells him that just murdering your enemies is wrong. Cue one of the enemies she'd [[Ungrateful Bastard|just spared]] blowing himself up to try and kill her. Baldor's maniacal laughter ends up being less [[Kick the Dog]], and more "told ya."

* In ''[[Bleach]]'''s Bount arc, Kariya recruits the denizens of Soul Society from outside the Seireitei to help him enter. This was a trick, of course, but the terms he used to convince them had a point; namely that the Seireitei treats them like crap and they should dismantle the system. So it's more like Villain Has A Point.

* In ''[[Freezing]]'', Scarlett Oohara is portrayed as being wrong for wanting to turn ordinary girls into artificial [[Super Soldier|Pandoras]] to fight the [[Eldritch Abomination|Novas]] which plague humanity. The argument is that there is no point making civilians fight the battles when they're supposed to be the ones being protected, and that humans shouldn't try to reach for more than they have. Never mind that natural Pandoras are getting killed off faster than they can be born and that the current system is plenty cruel enough in that if you're born with the potential to become a Pandora, you have no other choice but to be one. Giving one a choice would be a huge benefit. Not to mention that Dr. Aoi Gendo, Oohara's main opposition, is okay with the Limiter system, which sends plenty of willing, once-civilian ''[[Men Are the Expendable Gender|boys]]'' into the battlefield. Scarlett's point is then undermined {{spoiler|since the E-Pandora project was never really meant to succeed in the first place. It was merely a publicity stunt to buy time for the Type Maria project. The girls who suffered and died because of the E-Pandora project did so for nothing.}}

 

** It was supposed to be a nuanced exploration of whether or not [[Super Registration Act|compulsory registration for superheroes]] was necessary to curb catastrophic mistakes and potential abuses of power. ''Both sides'' were supposed to have valid points (but supposedly supporting the Pro-Registration overall). Unfortunately, due to insufficient coordination between the writing teams of different books (as well as a ''serious'' difference in the skills of the writing teams - the anti-reg side got '''[[J Michael Straczynski]]'''), [[Mark Millar]] failed at making readers sympathize with the pro-registration side and both sides ended up looking like straw men, with the pro-registration side looking particularly monstrous. For starters, the SHRA criminalized the act of apprehending a criminal when you yourself are an average citizen, as well as SHIELD trying to arrest [[Captain America]] for refusing to join the pro-reg side, ''before'' it was actually signed into law. To make matters worse, the actual specifics of registration [[Depending On the Writer|varied from book to book]]:

** In pro-reg books, registration was treated as a prerequisite to a superhero being a crime=fighter. Supers were given the option of not using their powers, getting trained in using them properly and to establish that they were not a threat to themselves or others, and going to prison. If they did not want to fight crime after they were finished being trained, then they didn't have to, and there was no indication that they would be forced. It was just shown that a lot of people chose to fight crime because they had made friends with their fellow trainees and they felt like they should use their powers for good. However, the pro-registration side was still not sympathetic because Tony Stark and Mr. Fantastic were portrayed as being jerks, who felt like [[Omniscient Morality License|they knew what was best]], as well as committing some blatant war crimes. But they were making excellent points throughout and [[Take Our Word for It|if Mr. Fantastic's math can be believed]], it was the lesser of a few evils.

* The first comic appearance of Alejandro Montoya/El Aguila (Marvel) has the hero returning to his [[Toros Y Flamenco|home village]] and being attacked by random villain El Conquistador for being "the shame of Spain". Consider El Aguila has just mysteriously returned from (fled?) New York after living there for decades and constantly wears a rather ridiculous bright red and black [[Spexico|Zorro-esque]] suit. Well...

* Rorschach from ''[[Watchmen]]'' is pretty much built on this. The reader first sides with him, as in a grim and gritty world where crime is unstoppable, isn't evil stark black and good shining white? Next to Rorschach's absolute refusal to compromise, and his cathartic attacks on criminals, the rest of the morally conflicted Watchmen pale in comparison. But while certainly memorable and fun to read about, he's still a violent, ineffectual, anti-intellectual, homophobic, hypocritically mooching, misogynistic, self-righteous hobo. He basically self-destructs because he can't deal with moral complexity above the level of a small child: compare his childhood essay on why bombing Hiroshima was a good thing with his reaction to {{spoiler|Adrian Veidt's use of a similar act of mass destruction to ensure world peace}} -- he can't see in shades of gray, which makes him into a hypocrite when he has to deal with real human suffering and the complexity of actions on the global scale. Even those who see him to an extent as Moore intended can favor his belief in telling people the truth, rather than manipulating them and leaving them ignorant. Strawman Kind Of Has A Point (even if on the whole he's not a character to "root for").

* In ''[[Green Lantern]]: Rebirth'', the fact that [[Batman]] immediately doesn't believe in Hal Jordan (for reference, the story retcons Hal's [[Face Heel Turn]] into the villain "Parallax" as being the result of an alien fear entity named "Parallax" [[Grand Theft Me|possessing him]]) and won't let him lead the charge against Parallax is supposed to be indicative of his mistrustfulness and paranoia. The reader is supposed to cheer when Hal [[One Hit KO|punches him out]]. But if you think about how in his former time as an [[Omnicidal Maniac]], Hal!Parallax showed no signs of being anything other than Hal Jordan-turned-evil, it seemed very reasonable of him to not put so much faith in him, especially given that there was no proof that Hal's intentions were benevolent except his own word.

* From the [[Silver Age]]: [[Action Comics]] #176 ''Muscles For Money'', where [[Superman]] decides to start charging money to save people. While it's certainly true that Superman was doing some reprehensible things (charging insane amounts, forcing people to sign contracts before he'll save their lives, etc) the primary argument seems to be that Superman doesn't deserve ''any'' sort of reward for the good he does. The worst part is when Superman politely requests the $10,000 reward for two criminals he brought in only to have everyone declare him a money-grubber for it, despite the fact that this is a reward the police themselves had offered and which anyone else besides Superman would have been given happily.

* ''[[Batman]]'''s Jason Todd (the second Robin, who was murdered by the Joker), following his revival, goes on a violent crusade on crime and becomes convinced that the only true way to defeat crime is by controlling it and killing any villain instead of simply arresting them. While his methods are definitely brutal, he still raises a good point on the naivety behind the idea that someone like [[Joker Immunity|Joker can continue to walk the earth]] even though he'll continue to kill countless people. While he is a typical strawman in the sense that any hero willing to kill is portrayed as a total psychopath, his comments about the Joker are portrayed fairly. Jason challenges Batman, asking him how he could have any justifiable reason for letting the Joker live. In a significant variation to how most writers approach the issue, Batman tells him that it's not a matter of it being too hard; rather, he won't kill him because it'd be too easy. He really wants to kill Joker, but he's scared that he won't be able to stop with just him. Jason points out the slippery slope nature of that argument, asking why heroes always say "there's no going back". He's not asking him to kill regular criminals, or even any other supervillains. He just wants him to kill the Joker, an unrepentant mass murderer who's far beyond redemption and [[Death Is Cheap|personally killed Jason himself]]. Batman can give no other answer than a solemn apology.

 

== Film -- Live Action ==

* ''[[Patch Adams]]'':

** While [http://bventertainment.go.com/tv/buenavista/atm/reviews.html?sec=6&subsec=patch+adams reviewing], Ebert and Siskel agreed with the film's [[The War On Straw|strawman villains]]. Yes, they were shown insisting on being professional at all times, which apparently includes things such as [[Brutal Honesty|flatly telling someone they had a few weeks to live]] and then heading off to complete your rounds without another word, Ebert and Siskel said they would run if they got a wacky doctor like [[Robin Williams]]' character. [[Take a Third Option|The option of having a reasonable amount of bedside manner without going overboard is never offered.]] This is a bit of [[Viewers Are Geniuses]] - on their face, the traditional doctors seem reasonable.

** Kitz does agree to give Arroway more money for research. Furthermore, in the film Kitz loses his temper at the congressional interview. That is not a sign of a person willing to consider dissent.

** On the ''other'' other hand, Arroway herself is a [[Straw Man Has a Point|Strawman With A Point]] (strangely, considering author [[Carl Sagan]]'s point of view on the subject), as her arguments on the qualifications for the pilot of the machine are perfectly reasonable and is subsequently dismissed because of her anti-religion views.

* The Mexican film ''Un Mundo Maravilloso'' (which was made as a leftist [[Take That]] to the liberal and free market economic policies of recent Mexican governments), has the Minister of Economy as the antagonist, and he is portrayed as an ignorant, insensitive and greedy dick who lives comfortably on a mansion while the protagonist (a homeless, jobless hobo) is shown sleeping in the streets; however, at one point of the film the minister is shown having a conversation with the protagonist, and he mentions that sometimes he would like to be "Just as free as you are". This is portrayed as another ignorant blather from his part, but when you consider that he, being the Minister of Economy, in reality has the tremendous responsibility of keeping the economy of an ''entire'' country smooth and running, and the fact that the hobo has practically ''zero'' responsibilities and commitments, it becomes hard to argue against that. In this case, the point is not that the minister had it worse than the hobo, but the notion that success always comes with responsibilities and commitment, the film doesn't dwell on that and even portrays the middle class (a more inspiring example) as the [[Butt Monkey]].

* The closest thing that ''[[Twenty Twelve]]'' has to a villain is Oliver Platt's heartless presidential adviser, who's an obvious [[Take That]] to [[George W Bush]] and Dick Cheney. However, after the fifth or sixth argument where his level-headed pragmatism is contrasted with the [[Honor Before Reason]] [[Chronic Hero Syndrome|Save Everyone]] bleeding-heart attitude of the rest of the cast, you kind of have to wonder if maybe the writers didn't secretly agree with him. Some examples:

* In the made-for-TV movie ''[[Zenon]]: The [[Incredibly Lame Pun|Zequel]]'', General Hammond (not [[Stargate SG-1|that one]]) arrives to decommission the station, which was still suffering the after-effects of the sabotage in the previous film. His actions are seen by the main characters as evil. Here's what he really does: decommission an unstable space station before it falls to Earth, doing untold damage, attempt to apprehend a girl who thinks it's ok to smuggle aboard a shuttle, chase after spaceship thieves, and other actions perfectly in line with what any good soldier or policeman would do.

* [[Lex Luthor]] in ''[[Superman Returns]]'' accuses [[Superman]] of [[Reed Richards Is Useless|selfishly withholding the advanced alien technology]] he inherited from his dad, so that the planet is forced to [[Holding Out for A Hero|stay dependent on Superman]]. While he's probably wrong about Superman's motives, he has a point. Sharing, say, what Kryptonian science knows about medicine or space travel or producing food would probably save a lot more lives than individually putting out fires with super breath. Ultimately, however, Superman withholds the tech because he doesn't want it to be exploited by power-hungry despots like Luthor.

* Dean Wormer's point of view in ''[[Animal House]]'' is understandable -- no sane college administration would want the Deltas around, and the rest of the student body might well have been good and tired of their endless pranks, hell-raising and rule-breaking. The Deltas may have been [[Affably Evil]], but evil they were nonetheless... a lot of the stunts they pulled would get people who tried them in [[Real Life]] tossed straight into jail. The fact that Wormer goes overboard ultimately justifies him being the villain.

* In ''[[Indiana Jones and The Kingdom of The Crystal Skull (Film)|Indiana Jones and The Kingdom of The Crystal Skull]]'', two government agents angrily interrogate Indy after Russian spies kidnap him and an old partner of his, murder several American soldiers at a top secret test facility and make off with an alien corpse. Considering what just happened and that Indy's old partner was working with the Russians, the interrogation doesn't seem that unnecessary.

* In ''[[Accepted]]'', a high school senior rejected by every college ends up inventing one out of thin air. The thing spins out of control and becomes an actual, factual school set out of an old mental institution. The [[Dean Bitterman]] at the nearby traditional college wages an accreditation jihad against the upstart. The guy's a [[Jerkass]], and the new school (with its emphasis on the students) is presented as a brave bastion of new educational methods. But as Dean Dick points out, the new place doesn't have a health center, more than one faculty member, or even a ''library.'' One doesn't have to be a crusty old academic to argue that a college should at least have a freaking library.

* ''[[Other Peoples Money]]'':

** One of the rare deliberate examples. In it, we see a ruthless corporate shark played by Danny DeVito (no stranger to playing ruthless and underhanded business types) who launches a hostile takeover bid for a failing 'mom-and-pop' wire-and-cable company run by an idealistic, noble-hearted businessman (played by Gregory Peck, of all people), so that it can be broken apart and sold. The battle lines would seem to be clearly drawn in favour of 'ruthless corporate guy = bad', 'idealistic fatherly small businessman = good', and indeed Peck's character makes a stirring, idealistic speech to this effect towards the end. All well and good -- until DeVito's character stands up a moment later and makes a similarly convincing, if more ruthless, practical, and greedy, speech about how the company is dead in the water with or without him and should [[Know When to Fold Em]].

** Then again, the belief that starting a family is a bad thing --even if it's what one ''chooses'' to do-- and a waste of one's talent is absolutely ''brimming'' with [[Unfortunate Implications]].

* ''[[Enemy of the State]]'' has a retroactive example in the [[Big Bad]], an NSA official who believes the government should have the power to secretly wiretap American citizens due to the threat of terrorism (the full scope of which most Americans, particularly those opposing the bill, were unaware of). He's shown to be willing to frame or kill off anyone who opposes him, furthering the message that the government shouldn't have the right to surveille unsuspecting Americans. The film [[Harsher in Hindsight|predates 9/11 by ~3 years]], while [[Shown Their Work|staying faithful to the NSA's full communications capabilities]], but in light of the fact that a devastating terrorist attack ([[Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement|whatever you belive its origins to be]]) in the real world prompted the government to give the NSA explicit authorization expand its warrantless wiretapping authority to American citizens, it makes the issue of whether or not the government should have this authority<ref> although the program is not constitutionally sound in theory, a court of review found that the program was constitutional and there are a lot of conflicting opinions as to its legality.</ref> much less black and white than when the film first came out.

* In ''[[La Haine]]'', the more one observes the main characters and their tendency to escalate every small issue into violence, the more one feels the police are absolutely right to treat them with suspicion and loathing at every turn, including the use of force. Though it is no doubt a [[Grey and Grey Morality]] tale, it is not that hard to be [[Rooting for The Empire]].

* In the 1976 stinker ''Rattlers,'' at one point the female lead goes off on the sexism in the professional world; it's treated dismissively by everyone in the film (including the male lead) but really, she's got a good point about how men at the time systematically denied deserved recognition in all professions to women of high accomplishment. Doesn't help that the movie's godawful.

* ''[[Teaching Mrs. Tingle]]'': the title character is a high school [[Sadist Teacher]] who has it in for the lead character, who is just trying to become valedictorian. At the start of the film, Mrs. Tingle gives a C grade to a project she worked 6 months on, a historical recreation of the diary of a girl [[Burn the Witch|accused of being a witch]] during the time of the Salem Witch Trials. Except that [[Did Not Do the Research|the diary describes witch-burnings]], when the accused witches at Salem were all hanged, meaning the teacher was well within her rights to mark the assignment down.

* ''[[Extreme Measures]]'' features Dr. Myrick, who violates just about every single ethical tenant of being a doctor while researching traumatic spinal cord injuries and how to repair them. He argues that all the red tape is getting in the way of science and that lead researchers on several medical fields are being hampered by them, and they're not getting any younger. The film had him experimenting in humans back in 1996; in [[Real Life]], it was not till 2010 that researchers were finally successful regenerating spinal cords in ''mice''.

* In the film of [[Silent Hill]], Sean Bean's character, Chris De Silva, is openly against Rose, his wife and the heroine, taking their daughter to the town of Silent Hill in an attempt to cure her mental illness. We're obviously supposed to side with Rose and her maternal instinct to help her daughter, and thus think of Chris as a jerk for being against it and having her credit cards cut when she tries it, but the problem is that her plan is almost suicidally stupid. In-universe it is public knowledge that Silent Hill is a ''very'' dangerous place due to a coal fire making the area uninhabitable, something she should know about especially since she apparently extensively researched the town. Not only that, she also didn't seek assistance from people who are familiar with the area to help navigate the town (something that Chris does as soon as he reaches it as well, mind you), and is thus risking both her own life and her daughters. To top it all off, she's doing this under the ''incredibly'' vague assumption that going to the town will somehow cure her illness, and not simply make it worse. It should also be noted that Rose is essentially ''kidnapping'' Sharon, and thus Chris is completely in the right to try to stop her.

 

** [[Alternative Character Interpretation|Arguably]], the "heroes" are supposed to be callous to the suffering at this point, as they haven't been "saved" and are still unrepentant sinners. The problem is, even after they are saved and supposedly become model Christians, they are [[Ignored Epiphany|still obnoxious jackasses who consider others' suffering an inconvenience]]. The only notes of genuine regret or contrition come from the supposedly un-saved.

** The overall premise of the entire series is this. God is set up as the good guy and Nicolae Carpathia (the antichrist) is the bad guy. Although Carpathia is definitely a murderous tyrant, his actions pale in comparison to the billions actively killed by God.

* In the ''[[Fateofthe Jedi]]'' series, Galactic Alliance Chief of State Natasi Daala enacts various policies to reign in what she see as the unchecked power that the Jedi have within the Galactic Alliance. Coming off a major galactic civil war started by a corrupted Jedi who enacted a coup and seized control of the Alliance, she is not entirely without precedent or reason to be concerned over potentially uncontrolled actions by Force Users. These policies grow excessively draconian and begin to cost her public opinion due to various publicised incidents. However, instead of using the mounting public pressure and political scandals resulting from her actions to legally reign in Daala's excesses (as had already proved effective in overturning the siege of the Jedi Temple and eliminating the [[Kangaroo Court|Court of Jedi Affairs]]), the Jedi embark on a coup to remove her from power that involves taking hostages, attacking government facilities, killing the appointed acting Grandmaster of the Jedi Kenth Hamner, and removing Daala from power to install Hamner's killer as part of an acting Triumvirate over the Alliance.

* ''[[The Turner Diaries (Literature)|The Turner Diaries]]'': a strawman proclaims the "[[Designated Hero|heroes]]" of the book as "depraved, racist criminals." He's supposed to be a strawman, yet this is a 100% accurate description of the "heroic" white supremacist [[Right Wing Militia Fanatic]] group known as the Order.

** In Breaking Dawn, Leah calls Bella out on some of her more selfish actions in trying to manipulate and keep Jacob with her despite knowing full well how much it hurts Jacob to be around her knowing that she's chosen to die and become an undead monstrosity with Edward over a life with him. Even Bella admits that she's being selfish, but [[Ignored Epiphany|chooses to keep doing it anyway]]. Everyone else gets angry at Leah for upsetting Bella, [[Ungrateful Bastard|including the guy Leah was trying to stand up for]]. And any point Leah made is completely forgotten.

* On a far more highbrow and (for lack of a better word) sensible level, [[Friedrich Nietzsche]] had this reaction to [[Fyodor Dostoevsky|Dostoevsky's]] [[Crime and Punishment (Literature)|Raskolnikov]]: Raskolnikov at first believes himself to be an [[Ubermensch]], but is wracked by guilt and eventually gets his redemption through a religious (specifically Orthodox Christian) experience. Nietzsche regarded the religious-redemption bit as bull and disdained Raskolnikov's feelings of guilt, but agreed with the unreformed Raskolnikov's Ubermenschian perspective.

* In the ''[[Inheritance Cycle]]'', [[Big Bad|Galbatorix]] can be seen as this. While later books established him as being thoroughly evil and tyrannical, his depiction in early books left him looking pretty good for many readers. His rise to power (in which he won humanity's superiority over the elves and killed the all-powerful dragon riders) is portrayed as a [[Moral Event Horizon]], and he wants to stomp out the [[Our Orcs Are Different|urgals]], a warlike species whose rite of passage is to find something, ''anything'', and ''kill it''. He's done plenty of unsavoury things and isn't to be praised, but he's made humanity safe and superior, and even his enemies acknowledge that his batshit insanity doesn't touch most of his subjects. And he is the established power, with a clear-cut law, as opposed to the [[Designated Hero|Varden]], who will gladly accept you into their group provided you A.) follow your flawed and suicidal orders to the letter, and B.) be sure to ''always'' shower praise on [[Sociopathic Hero|Eragon]], the [[Can't Argue With Elves|elves]], and your [[Informed Ability|visionary leader]], Nasuda. In the end it isn't so much that the Strawman Has A Point, but that the other side has even ''less'' of a point.

* ''[[Harry Potter]]'':

 

== Live-Action TV ==

* ''[[Star Trek Voyager]]'':

** A great many episodes have situations in which they have an opportunity to do something that would be very advantageous for the crew, only to have Captain Janeway refuse for [[Failure Is the Only Option|reasons]] typically related to the [[Prime Directive]]. Some character inevitably complains about her decision and points out that her moral arguments for why they can't take advantage of the opportunity don't actually make any sense, but they're always portrayed as being wrong, while Janeway is right.

** Why is Abby right about her colleague's familial relationships? Because... well. Why is she right when she decides they should all reconcile with their fathers? Understandable with Gibbs, since it's just old resentments, ''sort of'' understandable with Tony considering that his father really does care about him behind the dismissiveness and manipulativeness. Not even a little bit understandable with Ziva, whose father ''left her to be tortured to death'', without going to help or diverting a single piece of his considerable resources towards helping her. Though he had no problem trying to get her arrested for murder afterwards, even though she was innocent. Yes, Abby? Why should Ziva try to fix their relationship? Yes? WHY?

** Abby has another one in the episode ''Dog Tags'', where a "drug sniffing" dog is believed to have killed his handler. The same dog attacks and hurts McGee in the beginning of the episode, yet he's treated like crap for not trusting the dog that ''attacked him.'' Not only that, the evidence throughout most of the episode points to the dog as the killer, so McGee has even more reason not to trust the dog. What's Abby's counter-argument? [[Animals Are Innocent]] and dogs are man's best friend. And yes, she really does use the "dogs are man's best friend" line as a reason why the dog should be trusted. Of course, Abby forces McGee to take care of an animal that he not only clearly dislikes, but also ''attacked him.'' And then she ''yells'' at him for having shot the dog when it was ''trying to kill him''. A German Shepherd is attempting to maul him and he was supposed to... what? Pet it?

* ''[[Twenty Four]]'':

** On at least one occasion, the audience is supposed to support Jack in his hatred of the 'wishy washy liberal human rights lawyer' who (quite correctly) calls Jack on his tendency to illegally hold people with no firm evidence and then torture them into giving him information. In Season 4, Jack even yells "How can you sleep at night!" at a human rights lawyer brought in to defend one of Jack's prisoners who has every right to have an attorney. Season 7 attempts to address this tendency with a few scenes of introspection but ultimately still cheers Jack on as he runs around shooting and kidnapping people. Jack has had torture fail before, and at least on one occasion tortured someone who really didn't know anything, but the writers didn't do more more than have Jack angst instead of showing real consequences of using torture that have been around since Medieval Europe -- not that it can make people tell you the truth, but that it can make people tell you ''anything you want'', even if they're not actually guilty of anything.

* Speaking of faux-news programs on [[Comedy Central]], the humour of ''[[The Colbert Report]]'' is primarily based on this trope - Colbert plays the role of a [[Strawman Political|Straw Conservative]] pundit who unwittingly argues the progressive side, and as such tends to really nail home [[Insane Troll Logic|out there arguments]] when interviewing a guest. Sometimes, however, he'll end up making a really good point if the person he's interviewing isn't fully prepared. Most famously on display during the White House Correspondents' Dinner speech, where Colbert, in character, suggests that the President's dissatisfaction rating is based in 'reality', but it's okay because reality 'has a liberal bias'. Sometimes the strawman Colbert ''does'' make sense, leading some to think he's intended as a parody of the ''left'' and their strawmen, not the right.

* In ''[[True Blood]]'':

** And of course, none of this deals with the fact that most of the vampires that everyone wants to 'integrate' are probably legally guilty of more than a few felonies. Even if they've never ''killed'' anyone, we can go down a list: Malicious wounding, assault and battery, potentially attempted murder, [[Dr. Strangelove|stealing precious bodily fluids]], etc. Assuming that the 'next generation' of vampires are, in fact, interested in integration, then that's one thing, but it's hard not to see the 'older' vampires as, for the most part, criminals. Not only that, ''all'' of the vampires still have a readily available source for blood that costs nothing and which is easily accessible. Integrating them has all the feeling of letting a fox into the henhouse.

** Furthermore, new, inexperienced vampires tend to get carried away when draining their first humans, killing them even when they aren't trying to. Bill admits he did this "a couple" of times when he first started out, and we see Jessica do this at the end of Season 2. Which makes it highly likely that every single vampire we meet, even the "nicer" ones, are guilty of at least one count of manslaughter.

* Similar to Roseanne, ''[[Everybody Loves Raymond]]'' had Ray often act as a straw-misogynist to prove Debra's superiority, even in occasions when he was justified or right in doing what he did.

* On ''[[The Gruen Transfer]]'' in "The Pitch" segments, some topics, while unsellable, do get mighty-convincing ads. This is naturally intentional, since the whole point is to demonstrate exactly how effective advertising can be.

** In the episode Tabula Rosa there is an especially egregious example where Hotchner is testifying at a criminal trial. When the defense lawyer claims that all the FBI's profilers are doing is simply [http://en.wikipedia.or/wiki/Cold_Reading cold reading], Hotchner responds by cold reading the defense lawyer. This of course defeats this lawyer despite actually proving his point. Even though Hotchner was correct in his predictions, this doesn't prove anything of value. If that was a real defense lawyer that had been inteligent, he should have called a fake psychic to do the exact same thing as a rebuttal witness. Of course at the end of the episode, as always, they end up proving themselves correct with other evidence.

* ''[[Lois and Clark]]'': When [[Magnificent Bastard|Tempus]] mind-controls the entire city into turning against Supes, a lot of what happens seems like [[Reality Ensues]]. For example, he catches a couple of bank robbers and drops them off at the feet of an unassuming cop, who turns around and lets them go, insisting that it's Superman's word against their's that they were robbing a bank (although at the very least the cop would have held them on suspicion until they sorted the whole matter out). Later, a bunch of bureaucrats demand to see his license to fly as well as asking questions involving taxes. Technically, Superman pays taxes as Clark Kent, but the public at large isn't supposed to know he has a [[Secret Identity]], making it more a question of why some non-mind controlled [[Jerkass]] bureaucrat hasn't at least asked this question of the IRS.

** For example, there's an episode where a boy has raped a celebrity, allegedly due to the influence of listening to and idolizing a radio shock jock. The shock jock is portrayed as a complete asshole who cares more about freedom of speech than his point -- at one point, he refuses to testify that the perpetrator admitted he'd raped the girl while he was on his show. Of course, the only reason that he even has to testify to this fact is because the censors took his show off the air in mid-broadcast, before the boy made the confession. Meaning if not for the rampant desire to censor him (Which the protagonists of the show shared) there would be a taped, nationally broadcast confession. He is a complete asshole, but he does have a good point.

** SVU also has plenty of in-universe [[Invoked Trope|invocations]] where the validity of the criminal's ridiculous excuse-du-jour (alcoholism, porn, etc.) gets debated with the members of SVU stopping what they're doing for a minute or two to turn the squad room into an Internet forum of sorts, talking about the issue at hand. Munch was usually the guy in the defendant's corner, and could be counted on to work the issue into one of his various anti-government/anti-corporation rants.

** One episode had the detectives interrogating a man whom they suspected of raping a disabled woman. The man insists that the sex was consensual. When the detectives scoff at this, the man chides them for assuming that just because someone is in a wheelchair, he/she is incapable of sexual desires or feelings. While his point is undermined by the fact that he's ''guilty'', it's a valid point just the same.

** Another episode has a woman allegedly raped by her policeman husband. While the squad is very clear that, uniform or no uniform, rape is rape, the marital-rape issues cause more squad-room debate. At the end, when the case has devolved into he-said-she-said and the defendant (who waived a jury trial) has been acquitted, Benson complains that this means that a woman claiming her husband raped her had better be battered too. Well, maybe not battered, but-since one's mate's DNA in/on one's person is hardly evidence of rape-yeah, some physical evidence would be helpful.

* On ''[[Smallville]]'', a number of characters have tried to force Clark/The Blur out of hiding and into the spotlight of the public eye. Since the series as a whole was building to Clark eventually coming out as Superman, the arguments for Clark staying hidden became less credible over time. The evil reporter from Season 2 who tried to forcibly expose Clark's secret argued that the public had a right to know about a powerful alien living in their backyard, which makes sense from a purely ethical standpoint of journalist ethics (as well as the aforementioned fact that the public would eventually find out about him) even if Clark does indeed have a right to a private life. There was also the corrupt DA from Season 9 who wanted The Blur to show his face and answer for a series of screwups that were blamed on him that were really the fault of the [[Wonder Twins]] trying to impersonate their favorite hero; his corruption was revealed last-minute as a means to give the Wonder Twins a heroic gesture and kill any debate on whether or not the Blur should have to reveal himself to clear his name.

* In ''[[Glee]]'':

** Bryan Ryan, a guest character played by [[Neil Patrick Harris]], is an ex-glee-clubber who goes on a crusade against school arts programs out of his own frustration that his singing and acting career didn't exactly pan out. While the point is lost in how far he takes it - basically encouraging kids to give up on their dreams - he's not wrong that most of them will not end up in Broadway or Hollywood and that they should have back-up plans. The show doesn't help by having background characters like [[Advertised Extra|Tina]] be the ones to argue for their arts dreams.

** Upon his return, Jesse St. James is painted as a massive Jerkass for pointing out things like being talented isn't an excuse not to practice and rehearse. More than a few people in fandom agreed, and some even went so far as to say they were hoping New Directions didn't win at Nationals, since the fact that they weren't preparing any songs, weren't prepared to practice, and really didn't care showed they didn't deserve to win that year, and agreed with the decision in the finale.

* In ''[[Carrusel]]'', Jorge tells on Bibi, since Bibi was cheating on a test. The audience is supposed to take Bibi's side, since Jorge is such an abominable character overall. But cheating is wrong. It is unfair for Bibi to cheat and get away with it. And at age 9, nobody will be faulted for saying it loud and immediately instead of waiting till later and telling the teacher in private.

* In ''[[Memphis Beat]]'', Dwight and the other cops are issued smartphones. They prefer their regular phones, and treat them with contempt. Dwight even quips "there's an app for that" just before he uses his to break a window. Problem is, smartphones can actually increase productivity and effectiveness, with proper training, which Dwight and Co. admittedly had not received (yet). Also, Dwight was risking damage to an expensive phone and associated services on the Memphis taxpayers' dime.

** It's really difficult to say. Though everything consistently turns up roses for "Wonder Woman" in most of her endeavors, the end of the episode shows her alone and fairly miserable. It's difficult to say whether the characters she opposes were meant to be the strawmen, or if the protagonist ''herself'' was being made into a strawman, who presumably would have been "redeemed" as the series went on.

 

* The last few years of ''[[For Better or For Worse]]'' suffered from this.

* The spoof editorial cartoons by Kelly featured in ''[[The Onion]]'' purposefully [[Invoked Trope|invoke this trope]] all the time. The Chuck Asay cartoon linked above would be right at home.

 

 

** Jerry Lawler: "They don't boo you because you're Arab! They boo you because you're a couple of obnoxious jackasses!" Fans: "eeeeehhhh"

* During the whole "Eddiesploitation" fiasco, when Chavo Guererro turned heel against then-Champion [[Rey Mysterio Jr]], he accused Rey of using the Guererro name to further his own career. He was supposed to come off as jealous (since he failed to win his own tribute match to his uncle), but considering that Eddie's death has been used as Rey's motivation (even ''before'' his Road to Wrestlemania), some fans agreed with him to the point where ''he'' was considered to be the true face in all of this.

* On the Backlash after Wrestlemania XIV, prior to [[Triple H]]'s match with X-Pac, he and Chyna talked about how much of a [[Ungrateful Bastard]] X-Pac was as he was the reason he got a job in the then-WWF in the first place. While Triple H was a heel at the time and could be dismissed as a [[Jerkass]] trying to justify himself betraying DX, [[Fridge Logic|after thinking]] about ''Chyna'' betraying Triple H for the Corporation and how he was all alone with none of the other DX members coming to his aid, it's no surprise that Triple H decided to sell out his buddies in DX.

* When [[Jerry Lawler]] wrestled [[The Miz]] for the WWE title, the next Raw, [[Michael Cole]] did have a point in that Lawler was partially at fault, although not in the way he intended or the way he said. While the point Cole made ''was'' slightly valid, it really ''wasn't'' Lawler's place to interrupt a new champion's victory celebration, but The Miz is a frankly pathetic heel who more or less cheated to win his title and most faces would have done the same, there was a point in that Lawler technically did screw himself out of the win. While yes, Cole did pull him off the ladder and temporarily stop him from winning, Lawler berated and then assaulted Cole on this for at least a full minute. If Lawler had simply given Cole a well-deserved punch in the mouth and gone back to his business, Lawler would have been champion. Although it was still fun to see Michael Cole get beaten down.

* On NXT Season 5, Rookie Byron Saxton wants nothing to do with his pro Yoshi Tatsu due to the latter's courtship with Maryse rather than being his pro. While the viewers are supposed to be sympathetic towards Yoshi, the fact that Yoshi's infatuation with Maryse has interfered with mentoring his rookie (To the point where it cost him a match) makes Saxon appear more sympathetic.

* The number of people who have turned heel for no other reason than because they had the audacity to be angry after being attacked and/or bullied by Stone Cold Steve Austin for no apparent reason is pretty high. Prominent examples include Ric Flair during the initial brand split who was attacked despite doing everything he could to get on Austin's good side, and arguably Vince McMahon himself, who started a nearly five year feud simply by asking Austin to be a bit less anti-social.

 

 

 

== Video Games ==

* No matter what character interpretation you may subscribe to in ''[[Final Fantasy Tactics Advance]]'' (whether or not you see Marche as a [[Villain Protagonist]]), it's hard to argue with some of the justifications that both sides use. If you believe that Marche is in the right, the royal forces (who are attempting to stop Marche from {{spoiler|destroying the [[Cosmic Keystone|crystals and]]}} returning to St. Ivalice) are very correct when they claim that he is destroying the one place where his friends and brother are happy. On the other hand, even if you see Marche as a dangerous Jerkass, he is still right when he claims that Mewt and Ritz (among others) are using Ivalice to avoid facing their real-world problems (and because the Ivalice world actually ''replaces'' St. Ivalice instead of existing separately, they are forcing other people to cease to exist in the process). Basically, no matter who the player personally supports, the "villains" are correct when they call the "heroes" out on their selfish attempts to impose their own form of reality on the world. Needless to say, intepretations on who was "right" are fodder for much debating.

* The Jackal from ''[[Far Cry]] 2'', on his interview tapes, sounds a lot more logical than the game seems to want you to think of him as, given the tape descriptions. While many of them are blatantly MORALLY wrong, his logic to justify what he does makes a scary amount of sense. This is especially invoked in the tape asking him why Africa, when he gives the interviewer a small [[Hannibal Lecture]], asking him if there's someone else's home he doesn't care about that he should sell weapons in.

** Cerberus is a [[Fantastic Racism|human-centric]] organization which employs [[Utopia Justifies the Means|"whatever it takes" methods]] for their vision of a [[Humanity Is Superior|human-dominant galaxy]]. Throughout the entire series, players encounter many Cerberus installations which conduct brutal, horrific experiments that have [[Gone Horribly Wrong]] (or [[Gone Horribly Right]]). However, some of these experiments, such as the "Lazarus Project", leads to the [[Back From the Dead|revival]] of series protagonist, Commander Shepard. Also, other cases of these experiments, such as Project Overlord, the Reaper IFF survey group, and many others, are all done with the intention of stopping a fleet of [[Cosmic Horror|Cosmic Horrors]] from invading the galaxy and causing an [[Apocalypse How|X-3 Class extinction]]. While there are ''plenty'' of instances where Cerberus crosses the line (they ''are'' [[Straw Evil]] in many ways), no one can deny that many of their insane actions cross into [[Crazy Prepared]] and [[Properly Paranoid]] territory and that the galaxy would have been doomed if they hadn't been around.

** Even a Paragon Shepard doesn't disagree with Cerberus's specific goal of stopping the Reapers, s/he simply disagrees with the ''brutal'' utilitarianism with which they try to achieve it. Paragon Shepard doesn't even try to deny that the {{spoiler|Collector Base will help in the fight against the Reapers,}} but that to use it would be unethical:

** Strangely, nobody seems to even consider the possibility that using this technology could be, not just an unethical, but an outright ''bad'' idea. The Reapers had already proven beyond any doubt that they can manipulate the minds of those in contact with them {{spoiler|even the Reaper "corpse" that had been dead for 37 million years turned the well-trained and cautious Cerberus research team into lunatics and then husks.}} And also, using {{spoiler|the one piece of Collector technology they got from the ship nearly got everyone killed despite their best precautions.}} Based on this, you'd think there were some very solid, totally ''un''idealistic arguments against the Illusive Man, but nobody seems to think of them.

** Even though the [[Mad Scientist]] responsible for the disaster in the "Overlord" DLC tries to make a point, his treatment of {{spoiler|his autistic brother is so monstrous that the ''Paragon'' option is to smash him in the face, and very few players will have anything but hatred for the bastard.}} However, his statement that if his work spares "a million mothers from mourning a million sons" he'll be content is never actually addressed. While this is by no means a solid argument, his point is rejected out of hand rather than argued against, leaving open the possibility that he might be proven right. {{spoiler|The game actually spares us from this moral conundrum by having Legion show us that the Geth are not actually hostile, and that if you want to understand them, you only need to ask. Consequently, the experiments and torture were all for nothing, but there is no way Dr Archer could have known that.}}

* In the dev's effort to [[Digital Piracy Is Evil|discourage piracy]], ''[[Hyperdimension Neptunia Mk 2]]'''s villains sometimes take a more sympathetic stance than the heroes. "Hey kid, want a mod chip? You'll be able to do things like cheat!" "Don't listen to her! Isn't it more fun to play the game as the devs intended it to be played? Good kids obey authority!"

** It comes to a head, or at least a more balanced light, during the rematch with CFW Brave. He and Uni have a pre-fight debate in regards to the importance of making children happy vs. the integrity of happiness through underhanded means. Both sides raise understandable points and despite Brave inevitably losing the resulting boss battle, both of them end up respecting each other and their goals.

 

 

* In the ''[[G.I. Joe]]'' episode "Satellite Down," Storm Shadow and some of the Joes are forced to make a temporarily alliance while under attack by a tribe of apemen. Storm Shadow, while being assaulted by a group of apeman children, flings one of them against a rock, causing Lady Jaye to object. Storm Shadow defends his actions by pointing out the obvious: that they are under attack. We're supposed to think the Joes have the moral high ground, but Storm Shadow is the voice of reason.

* This was a frequent occurrence on ''[[Captain Planet and The Planeteers]]'' with the character [[Commander Contrarian|Wheeler]], who was portrayed usually as an arrogant and obnoxious jerk and hence always wrong, despite the fact that he often made sense. In one episode, he was mocked and declared selfish due to his opposition to keeping endangered and injured animals picked up in the groups travels on Hope Island, despite the fact that not taking exotic species out of their natural habitat is a perfectly valid [[Green Aesop]] on its own. This is not the only example. He has been "wrong" to espouse two entirely contradictory positions in two separate episodes, and was somehow wrong both times. See [[The Complainer Is Always Wrong]] for details.

** Villain Lock-Up uses extreme (for a kids' cartoon) methods to keep the Arkham inmates in line, so bad that Scarecrow escapes simply to get away from him. But his justification, Arkham Asylum's "[[Cardboard Prison|revolving door]]", is perfectly sound. It helps that the more monstrous inmates like [[The Joker]] were conspicuously absent, so more sympathetic ones like Harley Quinn and Ventriloquist could plead their case. And as Scarecrow shows, his improved security system isn't a hundred percent perfect -- if, by some miracle, another inmate escapes, they'll probably do ANYTHING to avoid going back there. Even when Scarecrow was brought back in the first act, he was in full costume and brought in by Batman and Robin. Sympathy aside, the episode implied he'd still pull his shtick again, meaning he's ''still'' a dangerous psychotic, despite wanting to stay away from Lock-Up.

** The Canterlot Elite in "Sweet and Elite" are depicted as smug elitists for treating the ponies from Ponyville as hicks. Consider though that a bunch of Ponyvillians trashed the highest profile social function in Equestria, and proceeded the trash the second highest social function, one wonders if the reputation for being boorish hicks is actually somewhat deserved.

** In "The Super Speedy Cyder Squeezy 5000," Flim and Flam were technically correct in their original claim; that their machine could outproduce the efforts of the Apple family ''alone'', and although they agreed to change the conditions and then lost because they got cocky, Applejack ends the episode getting equally cocky about a pretty hollow victory--she only won the bet via labor intensification; having to double her workforce on short notice. With the lack of industrialism established, next season either the town will have to face the same sort of shortages it did in the beginning of the episode, or be forced to suspend most other facets of its economy, possibly including the more necessary ones, just so it can create a large supply of consumer goods that are nice, but far from necessary.

* In ''[[Justice League]]'':

** The entire Cadmus story arc was centered on Cadmus' attempts to thwart the worst-case scenario of the league [[Beware the Superman|taking over the world]] like their [[Evil Counterpart|Justice Lord counterparts]]. As it was framed in a "Who watches the Watchmen"-type debate, the strawman struck back on ''both'' sides. Amanda Waller justifies Cadmus' shady business by pointing out that the League has a [[Kill Sat]], they ''have'' made some questionable decisions in the past, and normal people ''don't'' have a way to defend themselves against the league if they overthrew the government as in the "Justice Lords" world. In ''Question Authority'', [[Green Arrow]] lampshades the whole thing by saying that if the League ever decided to cross the line and become the Lords, there's nothing that the rest of the world could do to stop it. In an inversion, Batman points out that [[Green Arrow]] and the league's more grounded heroes were meant in part to keep the heavy hitters honest, but they only served as the overall conscience against them [[Jumping Off the Slippery Slope]], not an actual [[Restraining Bolt]] if they were to truly abandon their principles and attack the government.

** And finally brought full circle in "Patriot Act". Following the prior events, and Superman's speech about the league's "hubris" being partly to blame for why the world was afraid of them, the league has made better inroads towards gaining the people's trust, including dismantling the aformentioned [[Kill Sat]]. However, given the preceding events, it's still not completely unreasonable for General Eiling to use a [[Super Serum]] on himself to become an actual physical match against the league possibly going rogue. Granted, he callously puts a crowd of innocent people in danger when he attacks a group of [[Badass Normal]] leaguers but he also subverts the strawman portrayal when he listens to the crowd of civilians calling him out on his own hypocrisy. Eiling halts his rampage and leaps off, promising to return if the superheroes ever did become a threat.

* ''[[King of the Hill]]'':

{{reflist}}

[[Category:Straw Man Has A Point]]