The Order of the Stick/Headscratchers: Difference between revisions

** There is no rule that says that you find out whether a creature is evil when you use smite evil. Miko used smite evil because of her suspicions about Belkar, but she'd have no way of knowing if it had an effect. She can presume it did. But she can not know for certain that he is evil.

** In this particular instance, the Giant likely made a mistake when posting in the thread and optimized the battle. Since he knows all details about all characters, this is the likeliest scenario as opposed to Miko actually knowing Belkar was evil in the comic.

*** But she did attempt to execute Roy right away when she ambushed the party and thought he was evil.

***** Roy's fake evil Lich aura was probably less than Belkar's aura of evil. She probably thought at the time that Roy was waaaaay too dangerous to be kept alive if he didn't surrender immediately, whereas she knew Belkar was a lower level humanoid evil, so she could more easily take him alive and fulfill her duty.

** Hm? Pretty sure she didn't use Smite Evil on him until he escaped the Azure City prison. Unless it was offscreen?

** It would magically refuse to stay on.

** My theory is that Vaarsuvius has Schrodinger's Gender: one of two possibilities is determined when observed, like when V was transformed into a lizard. The Girdle might stabilize it... or not.

** Or, if V put the belt on, his/her hairstyle would change to the hiarstyle of his spouse. That way we could clearly tell that the gender had changed.

*** They might be a same-sex couple...

*** ''That's'' an explanation I accept. In fact, I just reread the passage. He makes the claim on the druids, and then adds that Right-Eye was the one who suggested it.

* D&D goblins are about three feet tall, so why are all the goblins in the comic about the same size as human characters? Shouldn't Redcloak be about the same size as Belkar instead of Roy?

** Sylphs are also medium, if I remember correctly it gives goblins a way to look more threatening and is much easier to draw.

** Also, the part about sylphs is lampshaded: when Roy is looking for Celia, he describes her as "Inexplicably medium-size."

**** In his FAQ, he says that it takes him 2-to-3 hours to make a strip.

*** The FAQ is way WAY old, from back when the comics were a [[Art Evolution|a lot simpler]].

*** Look at that second to last panel, even with the same face, they each have a different color scheme/weapon/hairstyle combo. I have a base template for Male/Female Human, Male/Female Orc, Male/female Halfling, etc, but the sheer amount of work that goes into making everyone unique is time-consuming. As noted before, Rich gets sick pretty often. And over the run of 700+ comics, whatever program Rich uses statistically speaking, had to have crashed at least once.

*** I don't know what program you guys are using, but The Giant says in his FAQ that he uses a vector graphics program, can't remember of the top of my head, maybe it was Adobe Illustrator? Whatever, from his FAQ and other things he's said I've deduced that he uses vector graphics and keeps templates of everything he does. It's not easy by any means, but not as time consuming as some people here seem to think. Before his health concerns The Giant had a regular schedule of 3 updates a week, and he admitted he could do an update every day if he wanted, though he worried that if he did that he would make mistakes. So the poor update schedule (which has alleviated somewhat recently) is almost certainly due to health reasons (which he has admitted to, but doesn't want to share what specifically those health issues are).

* This dragon is going through WAY too much considering the afterlife is literally a revolving door...

** Maybe only humanoids can be resurrected from the dead?

*** "Where can I find someone able and willing to cast true resurrection to revive my son" isn't that hard to ask the Oracle... Can't you also use wish and a lesser spell anyway?

**** She is a Chaotic Evil creature... who would be willing to have a deal with her?

*** The problem is that with the {{spoiler|uber-Vaarsuvius}} arc in full swing, every single update is pretty much, an orgasmically godly CMOA.

*** Yes, it'll probably die down once Vaarsuvius stops actually ''being'' [[Crowning Moment of Awesome|the most powerful wizard to ever exist]].

**** A full half? I would have thought much less.

* In strip 141, how can a dwarf (in full plate, no less) ride a pony?

** V's raven runs purely off of [[Rule of Funny]] it seems. Having actually played a ''D&D'' campaign with a character using a familiar, it's really like they don't exist ''until'' the player encounters a situation where the familiar would be useful and the player suddenly remembers that he or she has an animal that's supposed to be following them around. The strip uses that as a gag, making the raven next to Vaarsuvius when it can come in handy (such as serving as a recurring gag in previous appearances), as the characters only now remember that V actually ''has'' a familiar in the first place.

* Vaarsuvius could have easily won the battle against Xykon in a matter of rounds, tops, had he did a few simple things like buffing against Necromancy and Death magic before hand, and not wasted rounds on ranged touch attacks, avoided using his own spells and rely on the splice spells instead. And did not forget to use quickened spells in conjunction with normal spells. The [[Idiot Ball]] award goes to V. More info on the forums.

** Because [http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7 point #7 on the FAQ.] The relevant part:

{{quote| ''The strip is ABOUT the trouble these characters get in; if a tactic would result in an effortless solution to their latest problem, there would be little point in showing it, see? The characters are woefully inefficient as a result, and often take actions that are rarely seen in a real D&D game, like running away from moderate danger or .forgetting. major abilities for the sake of a joke. But their foibles are what fuel the humor.''}}

*** Plus: Telekinesis while holding onto it.

* I know this is verging on [[Complaining About Shows You Don't Like]] (though it's really more perplexed by a comic I ''want'' to like) but: why is this comic so well-regarded when almost every comic is a giant wall of text? I stuck with it on an [[Archive Binge]] for a while before it became too much, and even in isolation the amount of text to image per comic is insane. 8-bit Theater, for the sake of contrast, is as equally constrained by its art style, but has far greater economy of language when doing both gags and fairly complex wheels-within-wheels plots. I find it a little confusing.

** [[Your Mileage May Vary]]. I ''like'' the comic's text-heavy tendencies, which gives it a lot more depth.

** Walls of text don't have to be bad. A lot of people feel Rich uses them very well to give life to his complex plots, characters, and character interactions.

** Some of us happen to like books but hate reading descriptions of what's happening.

*** Xykon can't do that. He doesn't have the luxury of devastating the enemy army before taking the throne room because the moment it becomes clear the city (and, by extension, the gate) cannot be held, the sapphire will be destroyed to prevent it from falling into enemy hands. That means Xykon has got no choice but to try to capture the throne room while the battle is undecided and hope his hogoblins can win afterwards; he can't wait until it becomes clear he has won the battle and the city will fall because then somebody will simply smash the gate. You may have a point about the paladins, though... they seem like the type of [[Honor Before Reason]] guys who would do that.

**** Xykon can't, but they were expecting him too. Note how they had a Xykon decoy leading different armies, with the intention of splitting up the party? They didn't think (at first) "Hey, they have to be duplicates, because he'd just head directly to the throne." Certainly, once they realized the bluff, they clued in that Xykon was likely making a beeline for the throne. But until that time, it seems they were expecting him to lead an assault, perhaps blast his way to the throne with nothing capable of stopping him, and thus no interruptions. Hinjo had them on the walls, ready to move to intercept Xykon. The way Hinjo talked about high-level spellcasters changing the course of the battle, he was likely thinking Xykon would blast his way directly to the throne. As for the Paladins, like I said, their lives are dedicated to the gate first and foremost. Being told that some foreigners of questionable morals were going to take over your duty would probably incite a rebellion. Note what Hinjo said to O-Chul in #413 "The rest... you know where they should make their stand."

** http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html Quote: "Arise, my children," says the ghostly paladin leading them. "Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable..." Cut to Hinjo saying: "There's a reason we only stationed paladins there today..." Cut back to the ghost-voice. "...even by death itself." It was explicit that only the paladins could be raised by the death-trap.

** Also We've seen Xykon deal with V channeling the power of the three greatest casters that ever lived easily. The Order of the Stick wouldn't have been any problem whatsoever, Soon was really their only chance to win it.

** When Roy meets Xykon, doesn't he say he can't remember Roy's father or Master Fyron at all because he did that so often? I think he mentions other blood oaths, as well.

** There are; we just never see them because the comic's focus is on the Order. In [http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html this strip], Redcloak mentions that he is used to people popping in and trying to kill Xykon. Also, it seems most people he messes with don't bother to try; in [http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html this strip] he comment "Y'know, I've destroyed entire towns, and the most I got from the surviving families were a few snarky comments. You, sir, have a serious problem with overreaction."

** They didn't just leave. Redcloak ran away after Xykon was destroyed. At that point, they had no way of knowing he had the phylactery, and were too preoccupied with running away themselves to do much of a thorough search. I imagined they assumed it was destroyed in the subsequent explosion.

** V should also have the ability to have K. Religion (having access to Knowledge (Any)).

**** No, he stated that the fall of Azure City was Karma biting them in the ass for their rampant slaughter of monstrous humanoid villages in ''War and XPs''.

**** [[Death of the Author|Then he was wrong]]. To elaborate, [[Good Is Not Nice]] is a major theme of OotS (and especially of Start of Darkness). The events of Start Of Darkness still happened, but in SOD they're shown from the perspective of the the goblins. Take a look at any strip (especially the earlier ones) where the Order is killing NPC enemies. Is that evil? Is karma going to "bite them in the ass" for it? The paladins attacked the goblins to kill the bearer of the Crimson Mantle, and they killed the others to prevent one of them from taking up the Mantle again. Lo and behold, that's what ended up happening anyway. The elephant in the living room in Start Of Darkness (whether Rich intended it or not) is that while the humanoids make big noises about speciesism, what they really seem to be after is a license to be [[Always Chaotic Evil]]. If they'd just become Good then paladins who attacked them ''would'' fall.

*** First and foremost, [[Death of the Author]] does ''not'' mean that the opinion of the author is wrong. It means that his viewpoint is no more or less valid than that of any particular reader. It puts all interpretations on the same level; it doesn't make yours right. Secondly, what happened to Redcloak's village was wrong. It doesn't mean that his subsequent actions were right, it means that wiping out a small village of unarmed non-combatants while they begged for mercy is not a good thing to do, even if it is a Good thing to do. And finally, the paladins' attack on the entire goblin village, where the goal is ostensibly to kill the bearer of the Crimson Mantle and prevent anyone else from taking it over, could have been accomplished by focusing their attacks on the Mantle and only killing anyone stupid enough to come near. Instead, they opted for genocide.

*** First and foremost, I never said that [[Death of the Author]] meant he was wrong, I said that he was wrong, and potholed it to a trope that covers disagreement with [[Word of God]]. If I had thought that was proof enough I wouldn't have then said "To elaborate...". Apart from that, you apparently basically agree with me that Redcloak's subsequent actions were not justified and most importantly that the fall of Azure city is not karmic justice by any measure. To the previous troper, where are ''you'' even getting that Good ''Is'' Nice in Order of the Stick? You just spent the first half of your post detailing exactly how not-nice the forces of Good have been. Sounds like a pretty strong theme to me. And yeah, it is from the goblins' perspective, the fact that we aren't literally looking through the eyes of a goblin doesn't change that. You say that "The majority of the Goblins don't seem to have actually done anything wrong" but you don't realise that this is a function of seeing it through the goblins' eyes (again, not literally). How do you know they haven't done anything wrong? Compare how casually the citizens of Gobbotopia approach the subject of slavery later on in the strip proper. The paladins may not have been justified, but they weren't Evil.

**** Not really. Being able to legally defend someone in a courtroom is MUCH different than standing there in the thick of danger. Law & Order notwithstanding, lawyers and paralegals aren't exactly known for being in consistent life-or-death situations. Furthermore, Celia is one of the few characters thus far who has not let their moral constitution slip because of convenience or mortal danger (not even Roy or Miko can make that claim), so throwing "hissy fits" is pretty much in line with "not condoning". You have to remember that, for her, death is a PERMANENT experience, and not only that, she has no afterlife. Next, she makes a solid point just outside of Azure City when she asks Haley if painting a human orange (to make them less human) makes them more okay to kill. Belkar himself is currently using this to his advantage by killing only those EVERYONE ELSE SAYS IS OKAY. Now, as for Grubwiggler, you have to admit that she did ask several questions which, through process of a elimination, made it seem as though he was going to do what she wanted. She directly asked him if Roy would be undead, which is right in order with the "asking questions" you mentioned before. Only difference is, rather than being an attorney, this time she's a woman who's emotionally invested in ''getting her boyfriend back''.

**** Being a woman trying to get her boyfriend back isn't an excuse for suddenly turning stupid; he wasn't getting ''more'' dead, Celia was just being snooty and ignorant-- which would just make her snooty and ignorant and that just be character flaws of hers, if her first appearance hadn't already established her as intelligent enough to incorporate new information she acquired into her thought processes when she heard it. From the time Haley summons her up until she leaves, she's only smart when she's wording an argument that will give her the moral high ground if she wins. I'm not complaining about her motives or her flaws, I'm complaining about how inconsistent she's been portrayed.

** For that matter, how does a ''lawyer'' get through life without ''Sense Motive''?

*** She wasn't a lawyer yet. Just a paralegal. She was studying to ''become'' a lawyer.

** Remember, Xykon's not a complete idiot. I wouldn't be suprised if he had wards against scrying up, and even if he didn't, sorcerers have a decent number of spells they never use. ''Energy drain'', for example, would have been completely useless against pretty much anyone but Dorukan, so it makes sense that he wouldn't cast it, and thus Dorukan wouldn't have thought to have a ''death ward'' up. He was doing pretty well until Xykon started pounding him with those.

** As well, maybe Dorukan did prepare quite a bit beforehand, and Xykon dealt with those protections. (Dispel Magic is quite handy.) Rich didn't show the entire battle, and has said that if something doesn't make sense, it's because of something done off-panel. In this case, Xykon dispelling whatever negative energy wards Dorukan had.

*** If it was dispelled, then he wouldn't have it, would he? That being said, why he doesn't have an item of Death Ward doesn't make sense, because Xykon somehow managed to find a ring that protected him from Positive Energy Attacks, Death Ward protects against Negative Energy Attacks in the same way, and Death Ward is a Core Spell. Also, what was Dorukan doing while Xykon was busy with the angels?

*** But Dorukan didn't have a year of prep time. He was waiting for Xykon's forces to enter the dungeon, at which point he could have prepped for whatever Xykon sent in. I would assume he had enough magical thingamabobs in place that even with his entire army + magical power, Xykon couldn't break into his inner sanctum within 24 hours. He only came out to fight because of a rashful, love-motivated outburst which he certainly couldn't have planned for since he didn't know what had happened to Lirian's soul in the first place. Bottomline: he wasn't planning on fighting Xykon that day.