Umineko: When They Cry/WMG/Open Two: Difference between revisions

 

* Your theory relies entirely on the possibility of piece-Battler doing something different than Beatrice expected. It seems clear from Game Master Battler's TIPS that Battler had to explicitly work out the whole story of Episode 6 before the game started. Beatrice should also have similarly known what was going to happen on the gameboard in Episode 4 before meta-Battler saw it play out.

** At the second twilight of Episode 2, ''piece-Battler'' worked out what was going on first. Meta-Battler is temporarily confused and only figures out what piece-Battler is talking about after he has explained a bit of it. He most certainly wasn't directed by meta-Battler there. Hardly anything in Episode 5 is actually narrated by the detective, so there's no actual proof that anything that might be suggested by a player was really performed by the piece instead of just being shown in the magic story. Did Battler really jump out the window of Kinzo's room instead of just explaining that he could have jumped to escape the closed room? Also, practically the whole game was played before Battler started, and was replayed for him, during which time he couldn't interfere - your argument that it was confirmed in Episode 5 relies on assuming that ''Bern'' is telling the truth when she says that she made piece-Battler look smart at this part of the game or that he's acting as Lambda's piece in that part. She has no particular reason to be truthful and we have no other reason to believe it than her words, while other things like Game Master Battler's TIPS suggest they shouldn't be able to influence the game. The game doesn't need to take place on the chessboard to be a game. The game of logic and truth in the meta-world about whether a witch was involved ''has'' two players whether or not Battler can influence what's happening on the chessboard. There's no reason to believe the people in the meta-world can actually do anything but watch the real story even if the witch side can also conjure up any magic story that fits the already known facts.

 

== The love duel is actually meant to show that Shakanon is false during Beato's games. ==

BATTLER's goal in the sixth game is to show that he understands Beato's game. The love dual is a fantastic metaphor for Shannon and Kanon being the same person physically and being torn between Jessica and George. However, the fantasy we are shown makes no sense in the context of the previous games. For example, Shannon and Kanon declared themselves to be human in the fourth game, since they retain their memories between games it doesn't make sense for them to consider themselves furniture in the sixth game. Also, The butterfly brooch just happens to summon the same demons Jessica had summoned for Mother's Day using Kinzo's grimoire, not only is that a rather contrived coincidence, but Jessica doesn't appear to recognize them at all. In short, even if magic exists there is no way the fantasy we were shown could have happened. Since the fantasy is impossible in the context of Beato's game, we can assume that its mundane counterpart is likewise impossible. Therefore, Shakanon is false.

** Has Ryukishi 07 stated that the Extra tips aren't canon? If he hasn't then it's a matter of opinion whether they're canon or not. If he has, I invoke [[Death of the Author]]. Also, one of the fantasy premises is that Shannon and Kanon retain their memories between games, thus it doesn't matter that they take place in different universes.

**** I'll concede the point regarding death of the author. By Parents Day you are referring to the "Labor Thanksgiving Day Gifts" tip right? If so, {{color|blue|m}} Or, {{color|red| }} Why should that fantasy be treated differently from any other fantasy? Jessica not remembering meeting Zepar and Furfur is part of my point. I don't think we say enough of Shannon and Kanon in episode 5 to judge whether they had any past memories or not. As for the other characters, {{color|red| }}As such, I submit that things we know about how the multiverse works in Higurashi can automatically be applied to Umineko. In particular it is possible for ordinary people to remember events in other universes. Furthermore, Shannon and Kanon's consistent ability to remember previous arcs shows that in that aspect they aren't ordinary people.

****** Is it completely clear what "layer" the Territory Lord is on? Because if he's simply a character in a message bottle or forgery it could still be possible for magic to exist in the "real world" or in message bottles/forgeries written by a different author. However, I'll concede the point about the love duel. As for whether the extra tips are canon. In episode 5, Dlanor says pieces can't act out of character. Given this it might be best to interpret the Mother's Day tip as meaning "''If'' it was possible to summon demons, then Jessica would do so in order to give her mom a Mother's Day gift, which would lead to the events described."

******* The Territory Lord is said to exist on a higher plane than every other Meta-character, since he knows the truth about everything on the gameboard, so at the very least, he's beyond everything of 1986. As for the "pieces acting in character" thing, the fact that Bern can depict Battler as a cold-blooded murderer is probably more about believability more than a hard and fast rule. A writer can put down whatever they want, but if they want people to swallow what they're feeding, it has to seem legit.

== Yasu isn't the only person who uses the Beato identity on the gameboard. ==

During the sixth game it's stated that Chick!Beato and Elder!Beato are to halves of the same whole. However, only Chick!Beato participates in the Love Dual. Furthermore, near the end of episode 1 Bern claims that thinking of Beato as a single person is a mistake. Furthermore, two Beatos talk to each in the fourth game, and this might have been witnessed by Battler.

 

== The rules Dlanor gives are what (Touya thinks) Yasu thinks Knox's rules are. ==

Simple, really. It never says when he dies. So {{spoiler|Sh}}kanon murders Jessica, leaves the room, goes off and commits all of the other murders, and then happens to be in that room {{spoiler|when the bomb goes off.}} Does not even require the dropping of personality theory. Multiple personalities to the death. If you assume that Genji and Gohda are in on it, the murders of Nanjo and Kumasawa can also be by him, and Shannon and the web are just a fallacy to magically explain him leaving the room and bringing the corpses with him.

* ...Um...Jossed by {{color|red|S}}

 

== Yasu survived ==