Dragon Age: Origins/Headscratchers: Difference between revisions

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<small>'''UPDATE''':</small> ''[[Dragon Age]]: Origins'' Headscratchers grew too massive for one page. The second half was removed and placed in a [[Dragon Age: Origins/Headscratchers/Part II|Part II]]. The second page is free to edit the folders ''already'' within. '''New edits should be added to THIS PAGE for coherence's sake.''' Repeat topics will be moved or removed.

 

** Your projecting your own beliefs about what my--or someone else's--character may be feeling about this situation. If the PC is protesting vehemently about the love of her life, future king of Ferelden, dying, a mage need only cast Force Field--which takes an instant--and charge on ahead. Alistair doesn't give you a choice, why should you give one to him? Why can't you save him? You didn't refute any of my points. The '''game just refuses to let you'''. There is neither rhyme nor reason to it, other than to force a [[Tear Jerker]]. This is through-and-through [[Fridge Logic]]. Think: a real person, instead of shoving her tongue down Alistair's throat, would take this valuable time to cast a paralyzing spell if she wanted to. You ''can'' protest, you just can't act upon it.

** Feelings or no, this is a WARZONE!!! The Archdemon is about to die on its own (and re-incarnate), the darkspawn are coming, neither you nor your companions are in any shape for round two. A Grey Warden ''must'' take the final blow ''now'' or this all starts again. You appear to be ignoring all of this by claiming that "a real person would do X with ability Y" rather than accept a part of the story when it actually makes sense. By your logic, any number of story events could be avoided by some specific action just because you are capable of doing so in-game. Should the writers bend over backwards to ensure that your character can specifically use Petrification to keep Duncan from killing Ser Jory because you personally got that skill early and wanted to? Besides that, exactly what would you accomplish by freezing Alistar? All you'd do is "force a [[Tear Jerker]]" yourself by making your character do it. The game already gave you a way to save Alistar and yourself, but you insisted on this and the story reflected that. I don't get why people are so insistent on a game giving them choices, but start moaning when those choices have consequences.

** The developers probably thought that if you were so desperate to keep Alistair alive that you would be willing to jeopardize the battle against the Archdemon by trying to immobilize Alistair just before he strikes the killing blow, then you probably would have taken Morrigan up on her offer.

** I think the point here was to highlight one of the difficulties about being on the hero's team; the hard part isn't sacrificing yourself to save the world, it's watching one of your friends do it instead. Your character either has the choice of respecting the decision of the man you love, or fighting him in the middle of a chaotic battle over the right to commit suicide and force him to watch the woman he loves die. I suppose the developers decided your character wasn't going to be that annoying.

* {{spoiler|If crowned, Alistair breaks it off with the female PC if she isn't a Human Noble. But, being king, he's perfectly capable of handing out titles himself and can make the PC his chancellor and the Arl of Denerim. If the nobility doesn't object to that, why couldn't he just give the PC the title and ''then'' think about whether it's impossible for them to be together?}}

** {{spoiler|1=The Landsmeet would almost certainly never accept an elf as queen of Fereldan, so it's somewhat understandable. And mages can't hold any title of nobility under Fereldan and Chantry law, so female mage PCs are just shit out of luck.}}

* {{spoiler|In Alistair's break-up speech to the elven female PC, he says two Grey Wardens can't have a child together--but that doesn't seem to be a problem for him if you're a human noble. Now you're just making excuses, Alistair.}}

** Refer to just above.

** No, I still don't grasp it. The point I was trying to make was, why does he HAVE to dump her jusy because ''marrying'' her isn't really a good idea at this point? Why can't he just keep her as a ''girlfriend'' like he has throughout the whole adventure? I'm saying, he doesn't have to ''marry'' her just to stay with her. Plenty of kings have offhand mistresses. Why does anything need to change in the relationship? And you bring up the point about not being able to produce an heir... well a human noblewoman is just as infertile because she has the taint too, and yet this isn't an issue for ''her''?

*** He doesn't HAVE to. It has already been mentioned that he can be convinced to keep the Warden as his lover.

*** Whatever. Still, I'm pissed that his immediate decision is to dump my poor mage/elf/dwarf like a sack of potatoes. If he loves me that should not have been his first choice, I shouldn't have to persuade him to keep me since he's the oh-so-mighty and all powerful king now. And the Couslands are not royalty, they are ''nobility'', which isn't quite the same thing. The Teyrn's family isn't ''that'' far up the lineup for the throne. And besides, a human noblewoman is just as infertile from the taint as everyone else. And again the point I'm trying to make is that it's the heartbreaking coldness of the break-up speech itself that really bothers me. Seriously, [[What the Hell, Hero?]]?

*** Did you not even read what I wrote? It has ''nothing to do with love''. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. No-thing. It is a sound political move that you are making and that Eamon and Alistair advocate. He will marry you if he hates you freaking guts, thinks you're pretty much just as evil as the darkspawn or whathaveyou. And, yes, I misused "royal", but the essence remains: Alistair is a bastard, Anora is the child of two commoners. The Cousland line stretches back beyond the Theirin line, and they were the most powerful noble family after the Theirins. Some people would have rather had Bryce as king over Maric. Marrying you tells the Bannorn that someone with noble blood who has been raised to rule is going to ascend the throne ''with'' the child of Maric. Essentially: Anora, but with less commoner and without Loghain. It's not like the Human Noble is allowed to marry Alistair after the fact. She gets dumped too. The infertility thing is important, but not more important than failing to get the crown in the first place. As for the "coldness"? I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing a man who knows he has to marry someone else and produce heirs for the good of his kingdom not wanting to make things more painful by being unclear and wavering. He says just about everything you can say in a I-Don't-Want-To-Break-Up speech: "I'll love you forever", "this isn't what I want", "I wish it was different", "I'm sorry", "I love you"; take your pick. If you bring it up later Alistair will essentially say, "Please, I'm begging you, stop talking about it, this is really, very difficult as it is, I'm sorry." In fact, I think one of the most redeeming qualities of all of this is, despite not wanting to lead you on and cause unnecessary anguish, he still obviously wants you to love him forever the way he'll love you.

** To the Noble Dwarf background, this is effectively a death sentence. Eventually his family and their kin will be hunted down for being nobility. Angry castless dwarfs who after years of pent up hatred would go on noble hunts for what can be petty issues and the ensuing social revolution will not be pretty as during the benevolent dictatorship there will be bloodshed that is normally ineffective under a tight caste system as well as Bhelen's successors. Isolation also allows the Dwarves to stay out of the turbulent world of Thedas which range from things like the Chantry to slavers hoping to buy/sell slaves in Orzammar. As far as this troper knows, there isn't actual slavery in Orzammar which can be subject to change if it meant fresh fodder for the golems.

*** I'm sorry, but this is wrong on several levels. Why in the hell would the Castless even ''think'' of taking up arms against the family who finally gave them the freedom and rights they have long deserved? And Harrowmont's isolationism is in no way positive, as it merely hastens Orzammar's stagnation and cuts them off from any form of aid against the ever present Darkspawn threat. This is driven home by how Bhelen is actually able to successfully strike against and push back the Darkspawn Horde to the point where he's able to reclaim ''several'' long lost thaigs. Yes, Bhelen's not a very nice/moral guy, but unlike Harrowmont, he actually looks out for his people's future and gets ''results''.

*** Not all castless will embrace that idea. Some see every noble as the same ones who caused them their pain and misery for so long and will lash out no matter who's the new king. And for some, isolation is a preferable alternative to being exposed to the world of Thedas which is just as unpleasant as the Darkspawn. There are some hints of that when you help Dagna or Burkel when the Chantry wants to Exalted on them after a certain event happens. And Bhelen simply speeds up the pace of exposure to politics Orzammar should stay out of if they value their safety. Harrowmont is more focused on stability and staying out of the affairs of the surface world.

*** Except that is completely the opposite of what actually happens. The casteless only end up rebelling if Harrowmont is made king. Under Bhelen they join the fight against the darkspawn, and end up pushing them back. Why are you pretending that everything will magically turn out okay if you make Harrowmont king? The games epilouge spells out that it's Bhelen that makes progress, and that Harrowmont just makes a mess. Acting like it's the other way around doesn't change anything.

** And that's probably what they were going for, especially after the first couple of playthroughs. Ordinarily supporting the noble, just character is the outright good thing. But supporting Bhelen, in this case, leads to eventual peace and prosperity in Orzammar. It becomes a question of whether or not you think "Bhleen"'s acts to get to the throne, which led to a Good Thing, are worth it in light of the murdering, backstabbing, and manipulation he engages in to get there. It's one big John Stuart Mill versus Immanuel Kant argument; the Kantian would support Harrowmont, because regardless of the consequences, Bhelen is an evil dick and nothing can justify any of his actions. The Mill advocate would support Bhelen, because his actions led to a much greater good than Harrowmont's. Big thorny issue. It's really a question of whether or not you think that murdering your way to the top in order to ensure peace, order, and prosperity is a good thing, from our meta perspective.

*** Muddying the issue further is the simple fact that the dwarven system is ''broken'', and obviously so, and Bhelen is presented as someone who is willing to break that long standing yet ultimately destructive social order that keeps the dwarves locked in a permanent state of internal feuding and self-destructive backstabbing that prevents them from launching any sort of concerted effort against the darkspawn.

 

== Wrong windmill sails ==

* Did anyone else think that the {{spoiler|templar}} in Anders' personal quest is really zealous/stupid. I know they respresent the {{spoiler|Chantry}} and all that, but the way she ignored the the authority of the monarch AND the grey warden is really a break from what was established from the first game. {{spoiler|Duncan had conscripted Alistair over the Chantry objection but we don't see the revered mother secrectly planning to kidnap Alistair, not to mention that Duncan also conscripted mage PC over the objection of Gregoir, and there weren't any templar attempts to recapture the mage PC}}. It seems to me the her action would have provoked the monarchy and the Wardens for nothing. That aside, did she really expect to defeat the hero that slayed the archdemon AND cleared the mage tower full of demons, abomination, blood mages {{spoiler|AND charmed TEMPLARS}}?!

** She thinks Anders killed the Templars that were escorting him back to the tower. That's why she is so intent on making him pay. But yeah, she was being rather irrational about the whole thing. I get the feeling that years of intense religous training plus using a mind altering substance regularly leaves most templars with a poor grasp of reality outside of the Chantry and its rules.

*** It was his seventh.

** Technically, the Chantry is its own entity that has its own laws and follows its own rules. In a way, they are exactly like the Grey Wardens - a force that operates on their own without the oversight of any ruler beyond the Divine. As Alistair notes when you speak to him abotu his recruitment, there was a danger that when Duncan recruited Alistair, that the Revered Mother would have them arrested. In Gregoir's case, the mage PC's recruitment was A) being endorsed by Irving and B) during a time of Blight, when Grey Warden authority is much stronger. Those two elements, put together with the authority of the Wardens - who, it should be noted, have the right to conscript ''anyone'' - was enough to convince Gregoir to relent. Int he Templar's case with Anders, it was quite clear that the Templar in question was either deluded into thinking Chantry authority superceded Warden authority, or was simply trying to make an end-run around the law once she got Anders out of sight of the ruler of Ferelden. The fact that the entire sequence pretty much broke down into an exchange of "Warden authority overrides yours." "No, Chantry authority overrides Wardens! Attack!" its pretty clear that she was either deluded or simply [[Cowboy Cop|evading the law in pursuit of a fugitive.]]

 

== Unrealistic abilities in Awakening ==

** The Grey Warden being put on the throne IS royalty. The person currently holding the throne has no royal blood, and only got the throne because the former king died. Adding to that, whether or not the nobles support you depends entirely on how good a job you do of eroding Loghains support. If you convince the Landsmeet to support you, it means they have lost faith in Loghain, and, as a result, no longer believe his accusations against the Wardens.

*** He's a bastard son of Maric nobody's heard of. The only evidence you have of his lineage is that Arl Eamon is willing to vouch for him.

*** The only person who ever questions Alistair's parentage in the Landsmeet is Loghain (who, by the way, is lying through his teeth when he insists Alistair couldn't be Maric's son). The entire Landsmeet basically boils down to whether or not you get the nobles on your side. If you do, they take your word over Loghain's. If you don't, they don't. It's that simple.

*** And that's what bugs me. If, right after the Grey Wardens have allegedly gotten the king killed, they come out with their own Grey Warden candidate for the kingship, it doesn't take Loghain to call it really suspicious.

*** Legitimacy isn't irrelevant, just not the deciding factor.

*** Alternate explanation for Eamon's forgoing his claim on the throne is that Eamon wants Fereldan to be united under one strong ruler even after the Blight. If Eamon steps up to the power during the Blight and wins, it's possible that his power will be challenged by other nobles later on. At worst, the rebellion may erupt with someone's falsely claiming that he is the son of Maric (which does happen in one ending). Considering the devastating effects of the Blight and possible invasion from the Orlesian empire in the future, this is not a good thing. Thus, by presenting Alistair as the legitimate heir to the throne and having him rally the troops to end the Blight, everyone in Fereldan will acknowledge Alistair as their king. The previous King Maric liberated Fereldan from the Orlesian empire; what better way to persuade nobles that someone they didn't know is Maric's heir and deserves to be their king than to have that person save them from even greater threat? This way, the political stability in Fereldan is secured after the Blight.

*** Ferelden would never be free without Loghain leading [[La Résistance]] in victory at a critical battle, while Maric was busy settling a personal score. Maric was merely a symbol.

 

== Map and placement discrepancies in Awakening ==

** And they each have a House to back them up, while you don't. (Remember, both dwarves are offically considered casteless at this point, even the Aeducan.)

** If you were the Dwarf Noble PC, you were stripped of your rank, honor, place in the family, etc. and expected to run off and die. If you were the Dwarf Commoner PC, you were a casteless to begin with. Neither has any claim to the throne that the nobles would accept, since either way you are considered lower than dirt.

 

== No Chasind facepaint ==

* It's creepily suspicious that in the Darkspawn Chronicles timeline, it appears he consented to Morrigan's ritual and did it all on his own accord, with no Warden there to talk him into it. Ewwww.

* Alistair in DSC is a different person, and much hardened. He saves his own life so he can rule the kingdom. He also spares Arl Howe, if you didn't notice. He still hates Morrigan. Hooked up with Leliana, though. Upset your imaginary boyfriend didn't somehow know that, even though he'd met the Warden for about an hour, he was destined to be with an alternate reality female version of her (maybe) and say "Wow, my alternate reality girlfriend sure would prefer it if I died here". God forbid he saves his own life--the way you save yours.

* Whatever, it's still disgustingly wrong and creepy that he'd stick it in her without anyone else convincing him to screw the freaky swamp chick. Also, the plot works very simply, and it doesn't matter or make any difference if I used to cheat items to do the ritual as a female, or if I legitimately did it as a male character (and therefore don't have a relationship with Alistair). Either way he knows nothing about how I lived and therefore it's crap that they'd assume he knows anything. Because he really doesn't know. Hehehehe (what a loser). Also, since when did Alistair like Leliana?! She's Male Aedeucan's girl and nobody elses! And also the Awakening ending sucked since some annoying glitch prevents me from saving both that stupid city and Vigil's Keep even though I'm positive I met all the requirements, got all upgrades and did everything right, so everyone ended up either dying or ditching (and it appears they free to go as they pleased with no repercussions whatsoever.). Getting relationship scores up in Awakening was also nigh impossible since we couldn't actually talk to our companions and have conversations like in the original. Baldur's Gate may be old as the hills but it was a hella lot better than this rotten deal, at least we actually got happy, optimistic and NON-GODDAMN-CLIFFHANGER endings, and didn't get screwed out of everything and anything good or happy in life because of a certain misfortune (including our ability to reproduce. Now that just sucks so badly. I want my Warden girls to have kids, damnit!!)

** Just like it's disgustingly wrong and creepy for your Warden to do it with her, huh? Or, are we playing the [[Double Standards]] game? Listen, ''you'' messed around with the plot flags. Anything that happens in relation to that is ''non-canon''. You might as well make a Morrigan/Alistair romance mod and claim that he cheated on you. You mean "Oh my god, my virtual boyfriend virtually broke up with me THIS GAME SUCKS". Please. [[Babies Ever After]]? Please.

*** Not necessarily. Wynne can survive the Rite of Annulment, I've done it, myself. All you have to do is, after slaying Uldred, suggest to Gregoir and Irving that the blood magic used might have infected/tainted the mages, somehow, and thus Irving will willingly submit himself and the rest of the Circle to quarantine. Wynne sticks with the party, in that case, and you still get Templar allies.

*** In addition to that, how is it that he spared both Howe and Cauthrien? The way events play out, sparing Howe isn't an option, and somehow I doubt Alistair would be able to dissuade Cauthrien from the fight in the Landsmeet chambers?

 

== Where did the Chasind go during the Blight? ==

*** All of the refugees you come across don't seem to be doing a very good job of fleeing. I think it's implied with Lothering that most people running from the Darkspawn can't escape in time and get killed.

*** In short, ran away, got killed, eaten or worse...

 

== Alistair the Prick ==

** That is a glitch but that's actually a fairly reasonable guess as to how it would have happened; Morrigan turns into a cat/mouse, sneaks passed the guards, taps Al. [[Fridge Brilliance]] if I've ever heard it.

*** But that does not, however, explain how either the Warden or Loghain died, as they must have. Still, totally plausible otherwise (if she were willing to touch him with a ten foot pole, that is).

 

== Limited party dialogue killing immersion ==

*** '''It's not like he has much to loose.''' He keeps quiet - you go away, the village is screwed. He lets you inside the castle, and ''maybe'' you manage to do ''something'' useful. As for your abilities, doesn't the membership of you and Alister in the freaking Grey Wardens account for something?

*** Say that your group ''doesn't'' fine a magical "I win" condition in the castle. Say that, for some reason or another, it takes you longer than an afternoon to explore the area and you stay away until after sunset. If that's the case, the villagers are completely screwed. Sure, the ''player'' knows that there's just one powerful demon causing it all, but ''Teagan'' doesn't. All he knows is that an army of monsters is threatening to wipe Redcliffe off the map come sundown. If the village is to survive, they ''need'' some trained bodies out there right now. He's not going to risk everything on you until he's got ''some'' assurance that the village will see the next sunrise (if you abandoned them, then he's got nothing left to lose counting on you). He told you himself, saving the civilians is his top priority. It's not a good plan, but based on what Teagan knows at this point, it's the only hope Redcliffe's got.

*** I agree with the first parts, but as for the last part about your skill, he never need see you fight if you abandon Redcliffe.

*** You managed to wipe out an entire village worth of undead to get to him. That's a pretty good way to gauge fighting prowess. He may not have ''seen'' you do it, but he'd know that the only way anybody would get to him is by going through the newly bolstered zombie horde.

*** Do you? I don't even remember. I could argue that he never sees you do that, as he's unconscious, but I get your point.

** But Teagan isn't saying anything about secret passages. Your Warden is assuming they don't have one. They ''can'' visit Redcliffe Castle and stare at the door. How many other times have paths magically opened for the player because the player needed them to? You're right, I don't think it's ''smart'', but it's not quite brain-numbingly stupid.

*** But in this case what would be the in-game reason for the "evil" Warden to return to the village after the attack? For all you know all the villagers are now dead, and the castle is just as inaccessable as before. What, do you get an off-screen "[[My God, What Have I Done?]], we should go back and look for survivors" moment after you leave? Or does [[Genre Savvy|GenreSavvyness]] kick in, saying that "the Maker" will not allow this part of your quest to end in a stump no matter what you do? This is why I regard it as glaringly [[Stupid Evil]].

*** Yeah, the legendary hero, sure. Whose heroic exploits by that point amounted to something between "bugger" and "all". Weren't the knights, not to mention Teagan himself, intimidating and charismatic enough to make one promise (or kill one whiny bitch, since it ''is'' a valid option to solve the gear problem, and anyway is this a fucking "Dark Fantazy" or not), break one door and plank one golden coin up? As for the rest, why do ''you'' have to bully those blokes and find those barrels? The guys are supposed to be desperate! They should be combing the village with the finest comb in search for anything that could give them even a slightest edge!

*** ''Whose heroic exploits by that point amounted to something between "bugger" and "all".'' You may not have accomplished much personally, but you ''are'' a Grey Warden, with the full weight of their legendary reputation behind yourself.<br />From what Murdock says, they did attempt to convince the blacksmith to repair their equipment, but he refused to do so when they wouldn't launch an attack on the castle to rescue his daughter. Murdock was likely fully capable of breaking down the door and confronting the blacksmith, but doing so might have simply resulted in him attacking them and getting killed, which would ruin the whole enterprise from the start. It's not like Murdock knew that he was keeping a hidden cache of equipment, and the equipment he has is pretty sub-par anyway. Murdock seems to be more intent on trying to convince the blacksmith to help and capitalize on a good resource instead of just killing him ("Dark fantazy" doesn't mean "kill everyone, problem solved").<br />As for Dwynn, Murdock faces a similar conundrum; if he tries to force Dwynn to fight, he runs the risk of Dwynn possibly attacking him, and no matter how that turns out it would hurt all involved. Dwynn is unlikely to be cowed by Murdock and his militia, and I suspect that they don't even have that much money available to convince Dwynn to fight. By comparison, you're a heavily-armed squad of hardasses that include mages, qunari, an oversized axe-wielding dwarf, and possibly a golem; Dwynn is much more likely to follow your lead.<br />Also, you're leaving out the important fact that before you arrived, these people had morale that was at absolute rock bottom. They were convinced they were going to be wiped out, and had no hope of surviving. The general reaction of such a realization is utter despair, which can cripple any hope of forming an effective resistance. Bad morale can destroy rational thought very easily.

 

== Alistair's misinformed gossip ==

** Or maybe he wouldn't get a vote at all. Eamon doesn't cast a vote - maybe those who have explicitly chosen a side aren't permitted to influence the Landsmeet's decision. Loghain himself would presumably have a say in a Landsmeet in different circumstances, wouldn't he?

*** ...Damn it all. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, for your entertainment I have defeated my own argument.

 

== Mage Recruited Before Alistair? ==