Homestuck/WMG/Sprites: Difference between revisions
Rescuing 1 sources and tagging 0 as dead. #IABot (v2.0beta9)
m (Mass update links) |
(Rescuing 1 sources and tagging 0 as dead. #IABot (v2.0beta9)) |
||
| (12 intermediate revisions by 4 users not shown) | |||
Line 3:
== Dad is going to be used as a material in a first guardian at some point. ==
* Look at the first guardians and how they were created so far: Doc Scratch was made partially from Lil' Cal, an object with significance to Bro and Dave. Bec has Harley's genes, and is thus linked to Jade and her Grandpa. Gcat hasn't had anything confirmed yet, but I would bet money he's got something to do with Jaspers. So, what is there a significant link to in John's life that would be sentient enough to form a first guardian? Dad. Any other links John has to someone or something who is not a player in a session are to non-sentient objects, and Dad is mysterious enough to work.
** All known First Guardians are based on non-sentient subservient things ie puppets an pets. While it isn't entirely clear, there is probably a significant reason behind that that simply hasn't been explained yet.
*** Consider what we originally learned about [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004153 the source of Scratch's omniscience], though. That seems to imply that "intelligent" First Guardians are, at the very least, not exactly unique.
Line 26:
== GCat killed Frigglish/Jaspers to enable his own creation. ==
* As a First Guardian, he's responsible for encouraging his own creation. Jaspers' death enables him to be sampled for ectobiology.
** This is almost certainly at least indirectly true, as First Guardians seem to take action in order to preserve the [[Stable Time Loops]] upon which the timeline is based. Jaspers' death might not be a prequisite to getting his paradox slime, but it's still a requirement of the timeline that leads up to GCat's creation.
*** Death has already been shown to not be a prerequisite. In fact, no ectobiological sample has been taken from something dead yet.
Line 34:
He, out of all the guardians, has not changed. This makes him stand out; If he was the only one without a change, this likely could mean that he still retains the old memories he had from the Beta World. Unfortunately, this would involve a bit of [[Fridge Horror]], as the recent watching of Jane's "Mailsplosion" would bring back unknown, painful memories of a similar incident somewhere in his past.
Plus, it'd give a whole new reason behind his name being [[The Fairly
* FAIRIES!
* Remembering the Beta universe would invite unavoidable comparisons to the Signless/Sufferer, except Dad was not ectobiologically created, and Hussie likes to extend these metaphors as far as they can go.
* Probably not; he's actually not even genetically similar to Mr. Egbert and they're completely separate entities who just happen to be similar. Besides, he's not a player and the Sufferer was unique. Also Hussie probably isn't aware of [[The Fairly
== Once in the Alpha Session, Alpha Dad and Alpha Rose Lalonde (Mom Lalonde) will fight the Batterwitch ==
Line 59:
**** If you look only at the end results, then by that logic ''every single character'' has served Lord English's goals so far. You can't ascribe Bec's actions to some sort of obvious motive to serve Lord English just off of that. The most you can say is that they've acted to preserve the alpha timeline. Second, there is explicit indication that there are multiple iteration of Doc Scratch '''by his own words''', linked above. Third, [we're getting off topic from the original discussion this was pulled from].
**** Fair enough; but just as a final note as I'm genuinely a little frustrated by your cyclical logic, continuing to argue points I thought I already demonstrated evidence against. Doc's comments ''never'' were shown to apply specifically to 1:1 copies of himself, and there's plenty of overlap with Doc and the other First Guardians, far more similarities in fact than differences, and at any rate, trusting the words of Doc at face value is a little too trusting as well, given the Green Sun plot. You're welcome to believe what you like, but this is one of those ideas that to me at least seems to be one of the Untwists that ''Homestuck'' occasionally has. Much like the dreambubble afterlife discussion above, there's plenty of evidence for both sides and neither side has concretely been proven to be conclusively correct.
** I've tried my best to offer counter arguments, but you haven't listened. That's why I keep going over them. Your "overwhelming evidence" boils down to a few shaky arguments. <br />1) They share the same power source and FG genetic code, and this should imply the same motives, ignoring any other contributing factors to their creation [https://web.archive.org/web/20130309193653/http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40585720/Combined_Formspring_Web_Aug-28-2011.htm#mspadventures167594031059066970 (e.g. Lil' Cal)] or the behavior of other intelligent characters that draw from the same power source (e.g. Jade). <br />2) Acting to preserve the Alpha timeline when the Alpha timeline results in Lord English's summoning inherently means that this was your primary goal all along. We should assume there is no other valid reason to wish to protect the kids or preserve the session beyond bringing Lord English eventually into the universe it creates. <br />3) Doc Scratch is the model we should use for all guardians since he's the only one who explains his motives. Since his death was necessary to summon Lord English, the death of a First Guardian (which he is) is necessary, thus the death of any First Guardian will suffice. Any references to other iterations of himself must necessarily refer to any other First Guardian and not to a subset of First Guardians. <br />4) But, if something Doc Scratch says might contradict this theory, remember that he is a scoundrel and take his words with a grain of salt, even though he's never outright lied, and there's little reason to do so to the audience. (e.g. Dismiss outright what he said about Lord English's calling card in the A1 session and any implications it has about other sessions.)
*** Rebumped chat back for coherency. Point by point.<br />1) While Cal himself is a "jUjU", there is no indication that English cannot play out a similar role with another FG. Scratch was a puppet used as a weapon, so GCat and Bec might just be animals obeying their masters. Just because the motif exists with Scratch and English doesn't mean that's what must ''always'' exist.<br />2) While this argument is valid for Bec, GCat has no strong emotional connection demonstrated to any of the Kids. Moreover, Bec and GCat aren't sentient, so they can't really have motives! Animals can however obey orders, and even Bec's prototyping of himself to save Jade was in and of itself preserving the Alpha Timeline, meaning these things aren't mutually exclusive. <br />3) This depends on the assumption that Lord English varies his appearance based on Universes, and there is not simply one Lord English. Given that Andrew referred to English being the Troll's conception of death and an agent of their mythology, this assumption does carry some weight, as Humanity's conception of death is markedly different from the Troll's, and that could presumably extend to others. Look at for instance Anubis, a god of the dead whom a LE with Bec's ears would heavily resemble.<br />4) I never meant to undergo [[Confirmation Bias]], though you apparently think I did. I merely am cautious at taking Doc's words at face value, especially words mentioned all of ''once'' in a sequence that was heavily symbolic (the calling card). Moreover part of our diagreement is about Doc's reference to his "counterparts" which you take to mean "Doc Scratch" and I take to mean "First Guardian". Neither of these are incorrect, and from the evidence in front of us at this time, neither can be proven or disproven.<br />Closing: My argument boils down to this. We know Doc Scratch is connected with LE, and that in other sessions, First Guardians are created by agents of Derse, which is very loosely allied with Lord English (Feferi's Lusus, Snowman, Destruction etc). First Guardians prepare a planet for Sburb, ''[[And Then What?]]''. Once a session has entered, a First Guardian's purpose is complete. We have no idea what happens after that stage, though in Doc's case he became Lord English. It's not that much of a stretch to believe that is the natural fate of any First Guardian, not necessarily that it ''must'' be an alternate of Doc Scratch. Moreover, in every case of FG that we have seen thus far, they are based on a tool or an animal, something that naturally can be subservient to a master. <br />
== Nanna's maiden name was [[Hello, Insert Name Here|????]] [[Mark Twain|Clemens]]. ==
Line 117:
* Or Jack Noir and Alpha Jack Noir, if he manages to get his hands on the second black ring.
** Given that the Empress has little need for it, it's entirely possible.
*** It doesn't seem like the Alpha kids are prototyping anything though, thanks to
*** DD has shown it does very little.
Line 125:
** [http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005172 Voila]! This entire chain of dreams took place in a very abstract dreambubble; probably because as a Carapace with a more childlike intellect, WV doesn't exactly have crisp memories. Besides if that's the case, why haven't Jack or PM appeared in a dreambubble yet, if only to slice up some dead Nepetas and fly back out. Also based on that sequence and the Green Sun and shape of his nightcap, he might tentatively be called an Heir of Light, as his life thusfar has been rather extraordinarily lucky.
*** 1) That sequence doesn't indicate anything about WV's nature, as it's a dream Vriska is having, and it's prophetic, ala her Light powers. It might not actually be a Dream Bubble, but an outright Dream. Indeed, it doesn't follow the rules of any other Dream Bubble, ever. 2) Jack and PM MAY have gone into Dream Bubbles; we haven't been following them very closely ever since Cascade. And even if they haven't, so what? You can't kill the already dead, and Jack's kinda distracted by his attempt to Get Some. <3
*** When was it ever shown Vriska's dreams are prophetic? In fact her direct alternate, Aranea, is God Tiered and a hero of Light as well, and her dreams are in dreambubbles. One must also wonder how it could be prophetic when said prophecy turned out to be innaccurate; it really seems much more like a nightmarish memory of the past. It actually does follow logic of dreambubbles, merely in a much more abstract manner. Dreambubbles have been shown to shift between settings drastically and don't have hard and fast rules (just look at Jade's first Dreambubble for instance), and again there's no indication Vriska did anything special at all to contact WV. And on the matter of Jack and PM, until it has been seen directly on panel, there's no indication WV isn't actually unique.
**** Vriska's dreams are potentially prophetic because she had a dream about things that have yet to occur. The dream is symbolic, uses abstract imagery and meanings, and may or may not have been accurate, but that's standard for [[Dreaming of Things to Come]]. Also, what the heck are you talking about? Aranea is DEAD. We have no idea what she might've dreamed about as a God Tier. At all. Dreambubbles do have 'rules' in that they always replicate a memory of the past to the smallest details until the dreamer starts 'lucid dreaming' and can then walk into other people's memories. None of that applies to the vision you're talking about whatsoever. Especially since the dream contains things that have yet to occur for both of them, such as Jack taking the green rocks out of WV's stomach and using the Red Miles.
\\It's not a Dream Bubble. You've lost that point, try something else.
Line 151:
== Jack's death will have something to do with a clock. ==
* There is a sentence in the comic that has to do with this while Aradia talks about the genetic code "t1ck t0ck"- the "tyrant less an arm and an eye." Snowman stabbed Jack's eye out and ripped off his arm.
{{quote|
** This could just as easily be referring to Vriska. Or Marquise Spinneret Mindfang. Or Captain Hook. (Was he missing an eye?) Villainous characters in Homestuck losing an arm and an eye is practically a [[Running Gag]] by this point.
*** It's definitely a reference to the troll version of Captain Hook; Pupa Pan apparently is more of a myth than a children's story on Alternia, and has something to do with (may be based on?) Marquise Spinneret Mindfang and the Summoner. Hook is a pirate captain, so an eyepatch wouldn't be out of place, and everyone knows the story of his hand and the clock-bearing crocodile that keeps coming back for (ahem) seconds. Given that [[Call Back|Call Backs]] are a freqently used narrative device in Homestuck to the point of being (if Doc Scratch is to be believed) a significant plot point, it could also be a reference to any number of other characters, including but not limited to Jack.
Line 175:
* Doc is alive again, when he is dead during the intermission, so that would make sense. However it's not so much past as alternate timeline. Basically Slick's adventures during the intermission were part of an alternate timeline that got folded into the alpha timeline at the end. Otherwise he'd keep going through the cycle over and over.
** The first theory is seemingly confirmed; we've seen the deaths of Quarters and Matchsticks.
*** Seems to be both an alternate timeline ''and'' the past.
== Cyborg Slick is going to kill Alpha Jack Noir ==
Line 190:
== Snowman is [[Synchronization|synchronized]] with Doc Scratch ==
We know that [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003168 killing Snowman will destroy the universe], we know that a [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003991 ~ATH program] will [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003992 summon Lord English] after the trolls' universe dies, we know that [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005530 Lord English cannot enter the trolls' universe until Doc Scratch is killed], we know that [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005531 destroying the Green Sun isn't the only way to kill Doc Scratch], and the June 19th update {{spoiler|1=[http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005770 revealed that Doc Scratch wants Jack Noir to kill Snowman]}}. Furthermore, Doc Scratch and Snowman are the only members of the Felt with [[Power Glows|green auras]], both of them have teleportation powers and [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005740 this] [http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005748 sequence] implies that Snowman, like Doc Scratch and Terezi, can see into alternate futures.
* On the other hand; Snowman's powers are implied to have come directly from a portion of Doc's own abilities. Thus it would only make since that her much more limited powers would be similar to his. But if killing her would in effect kill Scratch, Doc would've already done so, instead of directing Rose on her mission.
== Lord English will play a part in the final battle. ==
Line 200:
eͮ̌̔ͪ҉̣̠̰̳Z͉̝̰̣̩̞̭͌̆́̅̓̑̒͜h̸̦̰ͥͧ̾̃͘E̿ ̸̀̓̑ͥ̐E̿ ̸̀̓̑ͥ̐E̿ ̸̀̓̑ͥ̐E̿ ̸̀̓̑[[Demonic Dummy|Z͉̝̰̣]]
== Lord English's peg leg will be an [[Achilles' Heel]] in the [[Final Battle]]. ==
The leg stump is visibly bleeding, so Lord English may not be so invincible after all.
* Jossed. Hussie has said his one weakness is apparently Doc Scratch's gun.
Line 208:
== Lord English will be killed with Die's voodoo doll. ==
It's not a coincidence that the first hint of English's supposed immortality
== The Felt are the remainder of the players that created universe A1. ==
Line 221:
== Skaia is the embodiment of all life in the universe(s), and the game is a means of preserving itself. ==
The game is set up to serve this function, win or lose; the only difference is how much the player's native planet is sacrificed. However, ''breaking'' the game has put the existence of life in danger.
* The source of all creation and the ultimate power trying to create new universes and thus life, yes.
** Source of Bilious Slick, or Bilious Slick is the source of Skaia? Given the history of paradoxical generation in this story, the answer is probably "[[Mathematician's Answer|Yes]]"
Line 270:
== Calmasis is what Lil Cal sees himself as. ==
To the outside world, he's just an ordinarily creepy puppet. But inside his mind he's a scheming, very much alive boy/girl who casually grows in importance.
* This could also be a rather subtle [[Shout
== Lil' Cal is a robot, or at least robotic ==
Line 290:
* "the bunny didn't make it."
----
[[Homestuck
{{reflist}}
[[Category:Homestuck Sprites]]▼
[[Category:WMG]]
| |||