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Magic Versus Science: Difference between revisions
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* '''Magic is Mysterious''': Alternately, magic [[Calvin Ball|follows no rules at all]], therefore [[Science Is Wrong|science will never be able to explain it.]] [[Fridge Logic|This scenario tends to work best]] with [[Functional Magic|Wild Magic]] and possibly [[Religion Is Magic|Theurgy]] -- most other flavors of magic, both for believable consistency and for dramatic potential, tend to follow [[Magic A Is Magic A|some sort of operating rules]], and figuring out operating rules is what science is all about. This is often an [[Informed Attribute|Informed Trait]], with the Scientist shrieking that magic isn't scientific because they can't tell how it does what it does -- a clear case of [[Did Not Do the Research]] or [[The War On Straw|stawman]], as science is [[The Scientific Method|cataloging effects and then theorizing on causes; with better theories to replace previous ones not only expected, but encouraged.]] This last point leads into...
* '''Magic is an Ideology''': Magic and science get along just fine, but the magicians and scientists can't stand each other. Petty rivalry or hubris leads everyone on both sides to specialize in their field and completely ignore the other. This conflict can sometimes take a subtler form, where the magicians want to keep knowledge secret and the scientists want it shared with everyone; which side is more sympathetic tends to depend on whether the author (or readers/viewers) think there really ''are'' [[Things Man Was Not Meant to Know]]....
* '''Magic is the Dimension's Natural Law''': Depending on which dimension of [[The Multiverse]] you are in. In World A, you can shoot lightning from your fingertips if you know how and gunpowder does not explode; and in World 1, the reverse happens. It becomes a lot harder to industrialize if the oil and coal you're intending to use simply don't work the way they do in the real world.
In some of these settings, if one does successfully [[Magitek|mix Magic and Technology]], the result is (rightly or wrongly) decried as an abomination in the sight of Nature and the [[Powers That Be]].
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*** Of course, [[One More Day|none of it happened now]].
* As for [[Iron Man]], he treats magic as a form of science he admits that he does not understand. Furthermore, if you try attacking him with magic spells, don't get your hopes up since this [[Gadgeteer Genius]] is often able to counter anything you throw at him with his technology.
* When [[Black Adam]] (about as powerful as [[Superman]], but with no [[Kryptonite Factor]]) {{spoiler|goes on a [[Roaring Rampage of Revenge]]}} in ''[[52]]'' he goes after the [[Mad Scientist|Mad Scientists]] on Oolong Island {{spoiler|after he killed the Four Horsemen}}. Most of the Mad Scientists are understandably freaking out. Then Black Adam easily plows through their defenses. Then one of the Mad Scientists gives the others a pep talk. And then {{spoiler|the Mad Scientists ''kick Black Adam's ass''. They blind him, time freeze him, give him a tesseract concussion, beat and pour acid on him, and give him artificial spacticity in less than a minute}}. Science won hands down this time.
** [[The Worf Effect|It really shouldn't have]] but it did.
** One of the scientists had stolen a machine from the future that, in his words, tries to open up an empty space the size of a football stadium inside Black Adam's skull. Thank Ra it only have one charge.
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* The line in ''[[Star Wars]]'' about "Your sad devotion to that ancient religion", as well as other evidence of characters skeptical about the Force, [[Flat Earth Atheist|despite]] its clear ability to do unexplainable things.
** In the [[Expanded Universe]], its mentioned pretty specifically that Palpatine went to a great deal of effort to eliminate all traces of the Force from the galaxy, painting the Jedi as deluded [[Knight Templar|Knights Templar]]. The fact that there were only a few ''thousand'' of them for an entire galaxy probably helped. It doesn't explain Tarkin's disbelief, but there you go.
*** Tarkin's quoting propaganda, like any good Governor who has Darth freaking Vader breathing down his neck would.
*** Tarkin didn't express disbelief in Vader's power. Merely disbelief that there could be any surviving Jedi; he mistakenly believed that Vader was the last of his kind.
** Generally, much of the ordinary populace's skepticism of the Jedi comes from the fact that they exercise their powers more or less unchecked, which is also why they became wildly popular as heroes during the Clone Wars - because then they were undoubtedly fighting for the Republic. This troper seems to remember a passage saying that Jedi action figures were popular toys during the Clone Wars.
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* ''[[Harry Potter (novel)|Harry Potter]]'': It is mentioned several times that anything running off electricity won't work on Hogwarts grounds, and this sporadically applies/doesn't apply to things powered by batteries (e.g. Hermione insists a microphone/recording bug won't work, but Colin's camera does, though it could be an old fashioned kind). Also, due to the [[Masquerade]] thing, the Ministry doesn't want Muggle technology enchanted, but doesn't do a terribly good job of preventing it.
** The Ministry doesn't do a good job preventing Technology-enchanting because the guy in charge of the enforcement department (Arthur Weasley) loves it so much. That and the Ministry is heavily implied throughout the series to be much better at the PR end of things than the enforcement end except in the most egregious cases when it doesn't deal with keeping magic hidden from [[Muggles]].
* In [[Lawrence Watt
* Harry Dresden of ''[[The Dresden Files]]'' [[Walking Techbane|can kill a computer by standing within twenty feet of it]]. The books explain this tendency by saying that magic involves the manipulation of energy and matter, which creates a "Murphyonic field" around wizards makes so that near them complicated devices tend to fail more. When trying to wizards are able to purposely break any sufficiently advanced technology in the area (unless it has enough back ups). It's also implied that older wizards have even more trouble with technology: Whereas Dresden can usually keep his Beetle going, his mentor Ebenezer drives a truck from the 30s.
** This was also once mentioned as a reason for Harry's usage of revolvers rather then semi-automatic pistols, as the more complex firearms tend to jam, backfire, and otherwise fail to function properly in his hands. This effect even extends to guns near him, especially when he is really angry. One time a vampire's servitor was badly injured by a backfire from a ''Kalashnikov''.
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* The ''[[Apprentice Adept]]'' series by [[Piers Anthony]] is based around this concept -- each "world" has its own laws of physics and either only magic or only technology can function in each.
** Notable in that the main power source for the science frame, "protonite", becomes the magic-producing metal "phazite" when taken across worlds. Regular tech works, but the super sci-fi tech's overreliance on protonite makes it fail horribly.
** In his ''[[Virtual Mode]]'' series, a sci-fi galaxy-owning dictator decides to begin conquering realities, because technology works everywhere, whereas magic doesn't naturally flow into many realities.
* [[Fred Saberhagen]]'s ''Empire of the East''. Most high technology ceased functioning because the very laws of physics had been changed {{spoiler|by a [[Deus Est Machina|powerful supercomputer]] in order to prevent a nuclear war from destroying humanity}}, which in turn made magic possible, and indeed prevalent. {{spoiler|By the end of the trilogy, some balance had been restored, and magic and technology could more easily function side-by-side.}}
* In the sequel to ''[[John Dies at the End]]'', the man in black implies there is a perfectly logical scientific explanation for him seeming to appear out of thin air. "It's not magic." However, when they ask about the invisible chair he is sitting on, he says that that actually ''is'' magic.
* [[Gregory Maguire]]'s ''[[Wicked (novel)|Wicked]]'' has the following explanation:
{{quote|'''Miss Greyling:''' Science, my dears, is the systematic dissection of nature, to reduce it to working parts that more or less obey universal laws. Sorcery moves in the opposite direction. It doesn't rend, it repairs. It is synthesis rather than analysis. It builds anew rather than revealing the old. In the hands of someone truly skilled, it is Art. One might in fact call it the Superior, or the Finest, Art. It bypasses the Fine Arts of painting and drama and recitation. It doesn't pose or represent the world. It ''becomes''. A very noble calling.}}
* In the ''[[Hell's Gate]]'' series by [[David Weber]] and [[Linda Evans]], this is taken to a more literal extreme than most - it's about a war between two rival civilizations, one of which has a 19th century tech base and a bit of psionics, the other of which is at largely the same functional level, but whose "technology" is entirely magic-based.
* In the [[Myth Adventures|MYTH Inc.]] series by Robert Lynn Asprin, Perv, homeworld of the Pervects (Perverts, to people who don't like them), is influenced by both Magic AND Science.
* The inverse holds in many of [[Poul Anderson]]'s stories. It is technology, (specifically magnetic fields) that makes magic stop working.
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** On the other hand, Mad Science also works, even though normal science wouldn't. The Discworld itself [[Theory of Narrative Causality|runs on plot and cliche]], you see, so electricity usually doesn't do anything useful unless you get it from a lightning storm.
* ''[[The Sword of Shannara Trilogy]]'' revolves around this trope. Various groups of people see either science or magic as the cause of the downfall of society. They then fight and destroy each other.
* In [[The Nights Dawn Trilogy]], the possessors have reality warping abilities summarily called the 'reality dysfunction', which form a de facto magic, if only because human scientists have not the slightest hint of how it works. Coming near to a possessor, or a possessor deliberately extending the reach of his or her powers causes electronics to fail. This is actually very inconvenient for them, as it makes travel in spaceships very difficult, and because it can be used to systematically detect them on planets with sufficient infrastructure.
* ''[[Rivers of London]]'' takes the Magic is EMP route burning out anything electrical. Notably this ''does'' include human brains, just electrical devices are more sensitive and burn out before your brain does. DC Grant goes through several cell phones before learning to take the battery out before performing magic to prevent them blowing up.
* In Adrian Tchaikovsky's ''[[Shadows of the Apt]]'' series the magically focused Inapt races can't even use a key in a lock or fire a crossbow while the technologically adept Apt races are incapable of perceiving magic. they can perceive it's effects but insist that it's all just trickery. Also some of the Apt races, particularly the Beetle and Ant-kinden were enslaved by some of the Inapt, namely the Moths who now hate the races who overthrew them.
* ''[[Artemis Fowl]]'' looks like a regular case of Magical Fairies vs. Technological Humans; it turns out, though, that the fairies also have technology, and [[Sufficiently Advanced Technology|it's far more advanced than ours]]. They have magic, but it's mainly used for things that are too hard to engineer or improve on, like [[Healing Hands]]. Magic [[Magitek|interacts]] with technology sometimes, but [[A Wizard Did It|no explanation of why magic works is ever given or asked for]], possibly because of its religion-like source.
* ''[[Bitter Seeds]]'' by Ian Tregillis features an alternate [[World War II]] where the Nazis have [[Stupid Jetpack Hitler|science-made]] psychics while the British have [[Summon Magic|demon-summoning warlocks]].
* In Ben Aaronovitch's ''[[Rivers of London|Midnight Riot]]'' and ''Moon Over Soho'', Grant finds that electronics short out about magic. He even deduces why: the fields produce a rudimentary form of life force, but unlike living things, where you need to sacrifice the creature to get at it, the rudimentary form means they can't hang onto it.
* [[Kim Newman]]'s short story "[[Swellhead]]'' features Richard Jeperson, a psychic investigator (magic), and Adam Onions, a government think-tank scientist who investigates the paranormal (science), who have a long-standing enmity and a history of quarrelling about this very subject. The story presents Jeperson as more in the right, although crucially, he's not anti-science; he just opposes Onions' brand of blinkered, self-serving and close-minded form of science.
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** Picard also cites abandonment of belief in the supernatural as a critical milestone in any race's evolution. Yet his bartender is hinted at being immortal. In fact, his Klingon security officer believes in the Klingon religion. (There were Gods but the first two Klingons killed them and now they rule the afterlife.) Picard himself is made a major figure in the heavily ritualised Klingon Government with the right to choose the successor to the Emperor, a position which is clearly stated to be a stand-in for the soon-to-return Klingon Messiah, Kahless!
** This is from [[Hollywood Atheist|Gene Roddenberry]]'s insistence. He was firmly atheistic, and hamfisted this view into characters from time to time. When it became clear that the view of everything being scientifically explainable and understandable by humans, despite the limits of human understanding being clearly shown (super beings like Q are as mentally advanced above humans as humans are above amoeba), it unintentionally deconstructed the trope, even parodied it. It was obvious there were things beyond human scientific knowledge, and perhaps the knowledge of any physical being, so the refusal to accept the supernatural as even possible wasn't out of enlightenment, but stubbornness, ego, and ignorance. Fortunately, this improved later on in the franchise's life, where people do express faith in what they cannot scientifically explain, or be skeptical without being dickish about it.
*** It improves so much that one of the main plotlines of [[Deep Space Nine]] was that the highest-ranking Starfleet Officer (of the regular cast) was the [[Chosen One]] of a prophesy. He must become deeply involved in the local religion, especially since he actually does ''talk to their Gods'' and literally fights a number of times against people possessed by that religion's equivalent of the devil. He does all this while remaining a science-loving Starfleet Officer. Right up until he discovers that he is a Demi-God and asks if he can take a Sabbatical to teach his people, who are Gods, what the linear time is like!
**** Although in this case, unlike with Q, the "Gods" are just unusual beings that are beyond humanity, rather than all-powerful.
** The ''Star Trek'' universe has an extraordinarily large population of [[Sufficiently Advanced Aliens]], many of which are entirely non-biological [[Energy Beings]]. Powers range from [[Magic From Technology|ridiculously advanced technology]], off-the-charts [[Psychic Powers]], [[Reality Warper|control over matter and energy]] or full-on [[The Omnipotent|omnipotence]]. While some of this skirts the edge of human comprehension, much of it is simply too far beyond anything humans recognize as "science" or "technology". The only rational for not calling it "magic" is that in traditional mythology humans could wield magic, whereas here it seem to be the province of highly advanced beings. Just don't call them "gods" in polite company.
****** The lines; It was obvious there were things beyond human scientific knowledge, and perhaps the knowledge of any physical being, so the refusal to accept the supernatural as even possible wasn't out of enlightenment, but stubbornness, ego, and ignorance. Fortunately, this improved later on in the franchise's life, where people do express faith in what they cannot scientifically explain, or be skeptical without being dickish about it.----- Are the obvious lines of an ignorant fundie... Making ad ignorantiam arguments for religion to be respected. Roddenbery probably understood enough of philosophy to understand that if you cannot pragmatically derive any benefit from a suposition you cant even prove the you must discard the suposition, and falsiability, both principles, pragmatic enjoyment of a suposition and its falsiability is enough to dismiss ALL religions and metaphysical postures and with the way science has advance by the time the series are set it it becomes obvious that progress can only be achieved through this skepticism to the meaningless.
* In the [[Buffy Verse]], magic and the paranormal are a carefully-guarded secret. When the US government discovers the existence of demons and other monsters, they assume they're simply rare animals, mutants, or products of [[The Virus]], and so start experimenting with them in order to turn them into weapons. In the fourth season, they soon learn they ''can't'' control it, when their prototype [[Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot|human/undead/demon/cyborg]] manipulates them into doing as he wants. This comes to a head when Buffy, herself temporarily fused with Willow's magic prowess, Giles's knowledge, and Xander's spirit, beat the ever-living shit out of the combo-demon after a season of it handing her ass to her. In his commentaries, [[Joss Whedon]] notes that it came down to magic versus science, and in a situation like that, "magic would kick science's ass". This idea did get a bit broken by the [[Word of God]] that people who do impossible things with science on the Hellmouth (such as create a demonic Frankensteinien nuclear powered cyborg) are actually using magic without knowing it.
** Cue season 8 , where The US Government has a plan to ELIMINATE magic for good..., but it seems they overlooked something.
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** In the world of ''[[Greyhawk]]'', black powder simply doesn't work, meaning that firearms literally can't be invented. There is a minor demigod named Murlynd who visited our world and became the patron deity of technology; he owns the only working gun in the world.
* In the ''[[Old World of Darkness]]'', magic is ubiquitous, however it is only when the rigors of science are applied that it produces truly amazing results. Naturally, the clan of [[Vampire: The Masquerade|vampires]] who do this (Tremere) are feared and hated by all other clans for their sciencey-magic. Well, that and the fact that they're jerks.
** The best application was using the human genome project as a [[I Know Your True Name|True Name]] of humanity. You might think that something as reckless as that would turn out to be a terrible mistake and cause them a whole lot of trouble in the future. It eventually did...the same year as the whole world ended anyway.
* In ''[[Mage: The Ascension]]'', The [[wikipedia:Technocracy (Mage: The Ascension)|Technocracy]] (representing science and technology) was in a war with the [[wikipedia:Traditions (Mage: The Ascension)|Traditions]] (representing standard magic) over the nature of reality. It also subverts the trope somewhat, seeing as scientific laws only work because the Technocracy long ago convinced the majority of people to ''believe'' in them, do to the [[Clap Your Hands If You Believe|consensual nature of reality]] in the WOD (i.e. reality is what the majority of people believe it is).
** So science is just another form of magic, with a vast, well-armed conspiracy to ensure that people disbelieve in anything else. That disbelief makes it difficult and dangerous to use magic, especially in public. Based on Post Modernist ideas, the writers had intended players to believe that it wasn't just the Technocracy that was wrong, it was the scientific method itself.
** The Technocracy originally formed when a group of wizards decided to create a form of magic that was egalitarian and available to all, reduced the power of evil monsters, and was safer for ordinary people. Some players think they eventually [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|lost track of this fact somewhere along the way]], and others consider them to be an [[Anti-Villain]]. Written as [[Alternative Character Interpretation|sympathetic villains]], even the [[Writer on Board|writers]] have struggled with this one, and had to resort to [[Kick the Dog]] policies to [[Straw Man Has a Point|dodge the argument]].
** Other [[Old World of Darkness]] games picked up the same themes. ''[[Werewolf: The Apocalypse]]'' had the Weaver, a cosmic force representing technological process and scientific reasoning... as well as stasis, which was a problem, because she'd gone bitch crazy several millennia ago and was trying to wrap the entire world up in her webs, killing stray thought in the process (the Glass Walkers were the only ones who gave her the time of day any more). ''Changeling: the Dreaming'', like with several of its themes, was split on this one: science was taken as a means of "trying to wrap everything up in safe terms" in some cases, which could made it a force of Banality... but the [[Mad Scientist|nockers]] were quick to remind everyone that the greatest flow of Glamour in recent history was triggered by the moon landing.
* The ''[[New World of Darkness]]'' has an interesting variation in the backstory to ''[[Mage: The Awakening]]'', with the so-called "Nameless War". The war was fought between the Diamond Orders (who believed in a system whereby all magical knowledge should be based on ancient Atlantean traditions) and the loosely organised revolutionaries who were nameless ([[I Know Your True Name|names having power and all]]) who believed that the greatest source of magical knowledge was through any system which had strong meaning to the majority of humanity, which was primarily science. When the [[Ancient Conspiracy|Seers of the Throne]] offered to join forces with the Nameless and create a system of oppressive technocracy, the Nameless rejected violently (since their beliefs champion freedom of thought), became the Free Council, and joined the Diamond Orders. While there is tension between the traditional Orders and the Free Council, they stay together out of a belief that "Magic Vs Science" is trumped by "Liberty Vs Control".
** Incidentally, this history may be the cause of some interesting relationships with the fan expansion, ''[[Genius: The Transgression]]''. [[Mad Scientist|Geniuses]] generally have strained relationships with Mages, due to [[Un-Equal Rites|fundamentally different approaches]] and the mysterious nature of [[Touched by Vorlons|Inspiration]], but the Free Council get along with the Scholastics, a genius Foundation. They often have to work together because occasionally a newly catalysed Genius is mistaken for a Mage, and vice-versa, and they have to perform swaps before bad things happen. Inversely, the abovementioned Seers of the Throne and the Genius' resident [[Ancient Conspiracy]] ([[Vestigial Empire|or what's left of it]]), Lemuria, seem to be ''[[Weirdness Censor|incapable of noticing each other]]''. Nobody knows why.
* In ''[[Shadowrun]]'', Cyberware / Bioware / Genetech [[Cybernetics Eat Your Soul|damage the body's 'wholesomeness']] (called [[Life Energy|essence]]) and therefore its [[Mana|ability to use magic]]. Too much of it and a person will die, unless magic is used to turn him/her into a Cyber Zombie (read: Cyborg). Technology and magic are however mostly separate, and except for the intrusive implants, do not impede one another. A mage can still use computers and guns fine. At the same time, more technologically complex objects are harder to cast magic upon.
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* The ''[[Warhammer 40000]]'' Universe is very dependent on this one. The battle against the Warp and Chaos (which is for all intents and purposes the "magic" of the setting) is one of the most central plot points. Faith is also used, but ridiculously large calibur guns and energy weapons also help.
** Of course Chaos can and does corrupt technology by [[Haunted Technology|stuffing demons into it]]. There's all sorts of scientists fallen to Chaos too since new ideas generally open someone up to the influence of the Warp and who wouldn't be slightly curious to see how it all works. The most known faction of those is the Dark Mechanicus who use more forbidden technologies like [[A Is]] and bio-tech to make very powerful potent weapons.
** The idea also comes to light when one considers the Tau, who stick entirely to technology and do their best to ignore the presence of sorcery and faith as active forces in the galaxy. The result, among other things, is that their ships move at a snail's pace compared to everyone else, since powerful sorcery is necessary to travel the Warp.
*** On the other hand, the Necrons also eschew the Warp, and in fact have troops specifically to shut down psykers, but their technology is ridiculously advanced to match- they're the only faction in the setting with reliable FTL travel that ''doesn't'' involve the [[Hyperspace Is a Scary Place|Warp]] or the Webway...
**** Retconned in the most recent Necron Codex, the Necrons no longer have FTL. They get around this by owning the Dolmen Gates, webway gates that were opened by a fire-using C'Tan god named Nyadra'Zatha during the War against the Old Ones. This lets them transport in slower than light ships to many points in the galaxy. Without these Dolmen Gates (page 8), they'd be stuck even harder than the Tau.
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'''Fairy Godmother:''' What's with the quotation marks? Who said ''that''?
'''Cinderella:''' '''''ME!''''' }}
* In ''[[Adventurers!]]'', Ardam reminds that, at least in an [[RPG Mechanics Verse]], [http://www.adventurers-comic.com/d/0152.html "Technology and magic do not mix. Remember? Someone goes crazy or things explode."]
* Averted in ''[[El Goonish Shive]]''. Magic uses a specific type of energy, and science has ways to make use of it like any other forms of energy. {{spoiler|Tedd's TF Gun works like this}}. And now there's a [[Mad Scientist]] interested in other possibilities.
** That said, there is a running gag of science teachers disapproving or even ''crying'' when something sufficiently magical happens, even when they can't see it. Never Tedd or anyone else in on the [[Masquerade]], though.
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** At the end of the day, the Whateleyverse may well be one of the "Magic is an ideology" cases. You have scientists who claim that magic is just 'psychic phenomena' ([[Sarcasm Mode|yeah,]] ''[[Sarcasm Mode|that]]'' [[Sarcasm Mode|explains everything right there in a proper scientific fashion, of course]]) and mages who in turn don't seem to be all that interested in working together with more open-minded scientists to figure out just what makes their spells ''tick''...but in the end, canonical evidence seems to point towards the two being [[Not So Different|just two sides of the same coin]].
* In ''[[Atop the Fourth Wall]]'', magic is preventing robots in another universe from total domination. Mechakara crossed over to Linkara's universe to get the power to finally win.
** Also, Linkara (he has a magic gun) versus Dr. Insano (who uses SCIENCE of course)
* Parodied in ''[[Kickassia]]'', with [[The Nostalgia Critic]] using electromagnetism on Dr. Insano. Insano says that's no match for science, and Critic reminds him electromagnetism is still science.
{{quote|'''Dr. Insano''': Well I'm ''sciencier!''}}
* This becomes a major plot point for [[That Guy With The Glasses]] third anniversary special, ''[[Suburban Knights]]''.
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** Although [[Word of God]] states this is because {{spoiler|[[Thanatos Gambit|he was sacrificing Tala's life to do it, and she made sure it was Darkseid who returned in revenge.]]}}
* Reed Richards refuses to believe Diablo's magic is anything more that sufficiently advanced technology until he defeats Diablo and yells "HA! TAKE THAT MAGIC!" in ''[[Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes]]''.
* In ''[[Avatar: The Last Airbender]]'' "[[Avatar: The Last Airbender/Recap/Book 1/14 The Fortuneteller
** In a wider perspective, magic versus science is also what determines how likely benders are to be born. The heavily spiritual Air Nomads were all benders, while the industrialized Fire Nation has the lowest ratio of any nation.
** This is evidently going to be a major theme in the [[Sequel Series]], ''[[The Legend of Korra]]''.
* [[Ralph Bakshi]]'s ''[[Wizards]]'' tells of a war between magic-armed Good fantasy races and tech-armed Evil mutants. It appears to be a straight rendition of this trope, together with a hefty dose of [[Science Is Bad]], {{spoiler|until the chief Good wizard shoots the Evil leader with a gun at the end: a subversion that Lampshades the notion that '' only the morality of the people wielding them'' makes either science or magic Good or Evil.}}
* This is a recurring theme in the trilogy of [[Crossover|crossovers]] between ''[[The Fairly Odd Parents]]'' and ''[[The Adventures of Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius|The Adventures of Jimmy Neutron]]''. Jimmy, despite seeing Cosmo, Wanda, Fairy World as a whole, and several magical feats preformed, still flat out refuses to believe magic has anything to do with it. In the comics published in ''Nickelodeon Magazine'', he accepts magic, but argues with Timmy over which is the best.
* ''[[The Nightmare Before Christmas]]'' has this, sort of. Note that Santa can (presumingly) do magic, while Jack's way of going at Christmas is more scientific.
** Not to mention that in the [[DVD Commentary]], [[Tim Burton]] says that there's no magic in [[Halloweentown]] -- [[Fridge Logic|despite the fact that there's two resident witches]].
*** [[Justified Trope]] though, since the witches are never seen casting any spells, except for cauldron brewing, which could be interpreted as [[Sufficiently Analyzed Magic|very advanced chemistry]].
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