Never Bring a Knife to A Fist Fight: Difference between revisions
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{{trope}}
[[File:krav maga3 6437.jpg|frame|[[wikipedia:Krav_Maga|Krav_Maga]], a [[Real Life]] example.]]
{{quote|''"You're bringing knives out in a fight like this?"''|'''Firo Prochainezo''', ''[[Baccano
Knives are scary. A single glimmer from its profile has been known to launch a thousand screams of horror. They're eminently deadly, dangerously easy to use. Pulling one in a fistfight is, most of the time, a goddamn [[Game Breaker]].
Not in fiction, though where they tend to be [[Inverse Law of Utility and Lethality|utter liabilities]] in a fistfight. In a [[Wire Fu]] movie, you should
▲Knives are scary. A single glimmer from its profile has been known to launch a thousand screams of horror. They're eminently deadly, dangerously easy to use. Pulling one in a fistfight is, most of the time, a goddamn [[Game Breaker]].
In a good old-fashioned [[Western]], any bounder who pulled a knife in a fistfight would get involved in a down-and-dirty rassle on the ground, then [[Hoist
▲Not in fiction, though where they tend to be [[Inverse Law of Utility and Lethality|utter liabilities]] in a fistfight. In a [[Wire Fu]] movie, you should [[Never Bring a Knife To A Fist Fight]], because [[Good Old Fisticuffs]] is king. Knives, guns, and any weapon that would give the wielder an advantage in a fight, ''especially'' if they're blood-spilling and are used against an unarmed opponent, have the reverse effect. They make it likelier that they'll never land a hit ([[Clothing Damage]] or [[Paper Cutting|minor cuts across the cheek or torso]] notwithstanding), and eventually get [[Blasting It Out of Their Hands|disarmed]] or forced to [[Throw Away Guns|throw away their weapon.]]
Much like all products of the [[Inverse Law of Utility and Lethality]], this applies equally to [[Heroes]] and [[Villain
▲In a good old-fashioned [[Western]], any bounder who pulled a knife in a fistfight would get involved in a down-and-dirty rassle on the ground, then [[Hoist By His Own Petard|fall (or roll over) on his own blade.]] A descendant general rule of Hollywood remains that the first person to pull a knife almost always loses.
▲Much like all products of the [[Inverse Law of Utility and Lethality]], this applies equally to [[Heroes]] and [[Villain|Villains]], though villains are usually likelier to [[Guns Are Worthless|pack heat]] or hidden knives. If someone ''does'' get stabbed, shot, skewered, or otherwise hit with the blood-spilling weapon, it was [[Only a Flesh Wound]] (though [[Healing Factor|regenerators]] are [[Immortal Life Is Cheap|exempt]]). Often goes hand in hand with finding out that just like weapons, [[Armor Is Useless]]. One way to exploit this trope is to make an immobilizing [[Knife Outline]], as the likelihood of fatally skewering someone [[Could Have Been Messy|becomes zero.]]
Oddly enough, a dramatic death where someone gets skewered or shot aren't subversions, since they rely on the unlikelihood of such weapons actually killing for their dramatic punch; plus, the person shot usually lasts long enough to deliver an inspiring [[Final Speech]] and turn out to be [[Not Quite Dead]] afterwards. ''[[Anyone Can Die|Instantly fatal]]'' stabbings or headshots ''are'' subversions, though.
Note: This [[What Measure Is a Non
See also: [[Guns Are Worthless]], [[Armor Is Useless]], [[Good Old Fisticuffs]], [[Knife Outline]],[[Could Have Been Messy]], and [[Only a Flesh Wound]]. ▼
A subtrope of the [[Inverse Law of Utility and Lethality]]. Works where this is in play are anathema to the [[Knife Nut]]. Similar to [[Rock Beats Laser]]. Contrast [[Never Bring a Knife To A Gun Fight]].▼
▲See also: [[Guns Are Worthless]], [[Armor Is Useless]], [[Good Old Fisticuffs]], [[Knife Outline]],[[Could Have Been Messy]], and [[Only a Flesh Wound]].
{{examples|Examples:}}▼
▲A subtrope of the [[Inverse Law of Utility and Lethality]]. Works where this is in play are anathema to the [[Knife Nut]]. Similar to [[Rock Beats Laser]]. Contrast [[Never Bring a Knife
== Anime & Manga ==
* In ''[[Outlaw Star]]'', resident [[Action Girl|ass-kickers]] Suzuka and Aisha seem to regularly wipe out rooms of gun-wielding foes with nothing more than a [[Nerf Arm|wooden sword]] and bare hands, respectively.
** Aisha, at least, has the excuse of being a naturally bulletproof catgirl berserker.
* ''[[
* Most of the fights the protagonist of ''[[Vinland Saga]]'' loses are to unarmed opponents. Likewise his father was a master at this trope when fighting a horde of mooks, beating them all without drawing his sword.
* Something like this was used in the first episode of ''[[Transformers Victory]]''. Fist, Star Saber defeats two gun-wielding Decepticons using only a sword. Later, when the Dinoforce fights the Brainmasters, Goryu criticises one of his underlings for using a gun; said underling immediately switches to an [[Axe To Grind|axe]].
* In ''[[Ranma
* Subverted in ''[[Full Metal Panic!|Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu]]'', when Sousuke is challenged to a duel by the karate club. Nobody thinks to tell him that things like guns, tear gas, and hand grenades aren't permitted. [[Hilarity Ensues]]
* Used in ''[[Those Who Hunt Elves]]'' to show how serious the dark elf queen is. When squaring off against Junpei, she ''throws away her sword'' because it would just slow her down.
* In ''[[Mahou Sensei Negima]]'', Ku Fei manages to defeat a number of armed opponents using only her martial arts skills.
* ''[[Baccano
** Ironic, considering Firo later uses a knife to disarm (literally) and defeat the [[Big Bad]].
* A full chapter in ''[[Holyland]]'' (16, if you want to fast-forward) is devoted to [[Shown Their Work|demonstrating how to disarm a knife-user in a street fight]].
** What it amounts to is basically what was described in ''[[Burn Notice]]'' quote below - Izumi grabs the punk's knife arm and beats him senseless. Though the narrator also notes that, unlike what some self-defence books say, one should focus on hitting the enemy rather than obsess over wrestling the knife away. Chapter 34 also notes that opponents might steal weapons away from an inexperienced user and turn them against him.
* In one of the murder cases in ''[[Detective Conan]]'', it turns out the victim was actually attempting to assault the "culprit" with a knife. Said intended victim was actually a master of Brazilian Jiujutsu and reflexively reversed the attack. In other cases, threatening Ran Mouri/Rachel Moore with a weapon is a bit of a gamble depending on whether or not she remembers her black belt in karate.
** Also, in the museum case, the victim was literally ''pinned'' to the wall with a sword.
** In the ''Lupin III crossover'', bumbling detective Kogoro Mouri is charged by a failed assassin with a knife- his response is to snort dismissively, tuck his hankie into a chest pocket, and then effortlessly judo throw the assailant to the ground.
* An example of this trope happens early in ''[[Kenichi:
* Subverted in [[Dragonball Z]] when Future Trunks shows up wielding a sword and effortlessly destroys Frieza and King Cold, as previously weapons proved rather useless in the series. Later played straight when Trunks gets beaten up and his sword broken by the androids.
** Using a weapon in the [[
==
* Depending on if he's fighting [[Faceless Goons]] or recurring villains, [[X-Men (Comic Book)|Wolverine]] can go from messily skewering everything that moves to barely managing to nick the bad guy's costume.
** Particularly bad in the cartoons, because unless he's fighting a robot his entire battle strategy has to revolve around body checks.
* [[Batman]] uses this a lot, since he often faces thugs armed with knives, but one particularly obvious example is the fight at the end of ''[[Batman:
** It's then averted in their {{spoiler|final}} battle in ''Return of the Joker''. The Joker actually manages to stab Batman in the leg; an injury that apparently (along with old age) forced Bruce Wayne to use a cane later in life.
*** In Batman's defense, he probably spent a very long time researching ways to take down armed opponents, since after his [[Continuity Reboot]] he's been solidly against any sort of lethal weaponry. When you're aware that you'll be spending the next few decades of your life using your bare hands against knives, guns, and lunatic clowns armed with either or both, you try your best to be ready for such.
** He uses this so much that it's made into a gameplay mechanic in [[Batman: Arkham City]]: once you unlock Knife Counter Takedown, you can instantly defeat any mook that attacks you with one once you figure out the timing for it, including the armored ones.
* Subverted in ''[[Sinister Dexter]]'' when a crime lord brings a nuclear warhead to a meeting, knowing it will end in a gunfight.
* The [[Sin City]] one-shot ''Family Values'' showed Miho beating down a knife-wielding mob enforcer with kicks and flips. When she gets bored, she does eventually {{spoiler|slice his throat with a shuriken and kick his head off}}.
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== Film ==
* The ''[[
* Averted in many Hong Kong action films, such as those of [[Jackie Chan]], in which the heroes will often grab [[Improvised Weapon|any damned thing within their reach]] to even the odds. Sometimes the power of guns over fisticuffs is upheld for dramatic scenes in which the hero is made helpless, such as in ''[[Rumble in The Bronx]]''. In a behind-the-scenes feature of a ''[[Rush Hour]]'' film, Chan insists on re-choreographing a fight scene to focus more on the gun, which his character would have to deal with immediately, or he'd be dead.
* In an early scene in ''[[Butch Cassidy and
* ''[[Escape
{{quote|
* During the alley fight in ''Sha Po Lang'', Ma Kwan manages to beat the knife-wielding assassin Jack bloody with his steel baton, but is unable to finish him until Jack manages to strip him of his baton. When Jack attacks the unarmed Kwan, {{spoiler|Kwan grabs his knife, twists it around, and guts Jack like a fish.}}
* In the final battle in ''[[Fist of Legend]]'', the Japanese [[Big Bad]] is losing the fight, then pulls a katana and gets his ass handed to him even worse. Finally Jet Li uses his ''belt'' to kill the villain with his own sword.
* In ''[[Secondhand Lions]]'', [[Badass Grandpa|Uncle Hub]] gets in a squabble with a group of rowdy teenagers. After Hub fends off the their initial attacks, they fall back and pull out their pocket knives. At this point Hub scoffs at them and delivers a [[Crowning Moment of Awesome|major beat down.]]
* Or in ''[[Star Wars]]'', never bring a blaster to a [[Laser Blade|lightsaber]] fight.
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*** ''Most'' Jedi, in fact, as it turns out.
** Subverted in ''Episode III: Revenge of the Sith''. Obi Wan and General Grievous both lost their lightsabers while fighting each other but Obi Wan managed to pry a chest plate off him while they were hand-to-hand. Grievous tries to throw him off a ledge, and after Obi Wan manages to hold on, picks up an electrostaff to finish him off, but Obi Wan used the Force to grab Grievous' blaster and shoot him in his exposed chest. However, he still regarded the weapon as "So uncivilized." right after his victory.
* The [[So Bad
* In ''[[Ip Man]]'', Jin finds himself getting thrashed by Ip Man, so he gets his sword. It doesn't help him much. The films also avert it, however, as Ip has no qualms against using [[Improvised Weapon
* In ''[[Road House]]'', starring the late Patrick Swayze, Jimmy, [[The Dragon]] of the film, tries to kill Dalton with his gun, and fails.
* Never bring a knife to a fistfight with [[Chuck Norris]]: he will boot it off your hand in a sec. This happens in ''[[Delta Force]]''. In the sequel ''Delta Force 2 -- The Colombian Connection'', Norris's character kicks the knife from [[The Dragon]]. ''Twice''
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* Played straight in ''[[The Bourne Identity]]'' and ''[[The Bourne Supremacy]]'' where Jason Bourne's opponents are often the ones wielding knives and other deadly close-combat weapons. Bourne himself is never given the advantage of having a knife to use against his adversary. However Bourne, being the better fighter (as well as the main character and therefore having [[Contractual Immortality]]), is able to disarm and defeat them using his fists and any improvised weapon he can get his hands on, up to and including a bathroom.
** Subverted in the first knife fight: his opponent's knife proves worthless, but then Bourne grabs a pen as an improvised shiv and ends up stabbing his opponent several times.
* The katana vs. screwdriver fight in ''[[
* Both used and averted in ''[[The Expendables]]''. The team regularly uses pistols and melee weapons in CQC to devastating effect, but mooks who try to do the same don't fare nearly as well.
* Played straight for the mooks in ''[[Taken (
** Neeson's character later wins by basically improvising his own knife out of a champagne bottle and using its superior range to bash and stab [[The Dragon]].
* Averted in ''[[The Kingdom]]''. [[Action Girl]] Janet Mayes, played by Jennifer Garner, is only able to defeat a [[Giant Mook]] after stabbing him twice in the groin and chest, before finishing him off by stabbing him in the head.
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== Literature ==
* [[Terry Pratchett]] regularly notes that a weapon you don't know how to use well is worse than no weapon at all, either because you're going to hurt yourself with it, or your opponent is going to take it from you, ''then'' [[Incredibly Lame Pun|hurt your self with it]]
* The titular skeleton of ''[[
{{quote|
'''Skulduggery:''' And only a moron would bring a [[Awesome but Impractical|sword to a gun fight.]] }}
* In the ''[[
* This general idea is explicitly written into the Martian [[Proud Warrior Race|honor code]] in the [[John Carter of Mars]] books, albeit on a larger scale- if someone attacks you, you meet their attack with an equal or lesser weapon, so using a knife on someone who attacks you with his fists would be incredibly dishonorable (as would pulling a gun on someone who attacks with a blade). In the second book, a scene where Carter prepares to attack a Thern (White Martian) who'd been releasing deadly wildlife against him with his sword, and the Thern's response is to ''immediately'' go for his gun, is a major indicator as to [[
* In ''[[X Wing Series|Starfighters of Adumar]]'', Wes Janson turns a [[Impossibly Cool Weapon|blastsword]] duel into a [[No
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** It's also cheaper on the special effects department. Since nobody ever actually seems to ''bleed'' after getting the stuffing beaten out of them in most Joss Whedon shows, taking knives out of the equation means that the producers save a fortune in makeup and fake blood.
* Entirely subverted in the ''[[Burn Notice]]'' episode "Old Friends": when an assassin pulls a knife on the unarmed Michael, none of the strikes land, but Michael's too busy trying not to get cut to do any real damage of his own, and promptly flees the scene when a second knife appears:
{{quote|
* In the final episode of Torchwood series 2, Ianto and Tosh run into three creepy religious fanatic types in medieval robes and scythes (not the smartest weapon in a confined space) and finish them off quite easily.
{{quote|
[''Tosh and Ianto shoot them'']
'''Ianto:''' There we are then.
'''Tosh:''' Sorted. }}
== Music ==
* A song by Stan Rogers, "Harris and the Mare", includes a fight between an unarmed
== Tabletop Games ==
* ''[[
* Both averted and played straight in ''[[Warhammer
== Theatre ==
* ''[[A View
* Exception: In the play ''[[West Side Story]]'' the violence between the Jets and the Sharks becomes more horrific as it escalates from fistcuffs to knives to a gun, leading to the violent deaths of several major characters.
* Jud in ''[[Oklahoma!]]''
== Video games ==
* Dark Types in Pokemon specialize in dirty tricks; they even have a move called Beat Up which lets every Pokemon on the team get in an attack. They are weak to [[Good Old Fisticuffs|Fighting Types.]] A special trait called ''Justified'' boosts some Pokemon's attack whenever they're hit with a Dark-type move.
* Subverted in the ''[[Devil May Cry]]'' series: Although the second fight with Vergil in ''DMC3'' starts with him using the Beowulf gauntlets and greaves, he pulls out his Yamato katana ''after'' he finds that having the hand-to-hand weapon isn't stopping Dante from kicking his ass. Beowulf (acquired after victory in said fight) and the Ifrit gauntlets in ''DMC1'' are the strongest weapons damage-wise, but Dante never uses them in cutscenes, sticking to his sword(s).
** Both Dante and Vergil can and are skewered by all manner of unpleasant edged objects without any lasting harm, may have something to do with this.
* Subverted in just about every beat-em-up video game ever made. Most of the time it's fist-against-fist combat, but when an enemy shows up with a weapon, that enemy will, nine times out of ten, be much stronger than his companions. Bosses, likewise, are usually always armed. By the same token, disarming a foe and stealing their weapon will give you a massive advantage, [[Breakable Weapons|until the thing falls apart.]]
** This is doubly true in ''[[
*** Only in the demo of ''[[
*** True, but if you can knock over your opponent while there's a knife in them, ripping it out of their body while they're prone WILL kill absolutely anything, unless they [[Badass|pull it out themselves to fight you]].
* Blunty averted in ''[[Assassin's Creed]]'', where switching to your fists in a sword fight is a quick way to an asskicking.
** Yet somewhat plays straight if you switch to the hidden blade. Countering is slightly easier (but if you screw up the counter there's no blocking, naturally) and using the counter counts as a guaranteed one hit kill, rather than possibly shoving the enemy down.
*** Actually countering with the hidden blade, is the hardest counter to pull off. The BIG advantage is that enemies cannot break your defensive stance. As long as your timing is impeccable, any enemy attacking you is killed instantly.
*** But then, taking down an assassination target or high-level enemy soldier, who (usually) tend to be very difficult opponents, with such contemptuous ease is ''easily'' one of the most awesome things in the game.
** Attacking single soldiers with your bare hands is actually pretty effective, as long as there's only one of them. It takes a little longer, but they can't parry, and its also [[Cherry Tapping|quite humiliating.]]
** Played straight in the sequel, where Ezio can counter-attack with his fists. Doing so causes him to steal the opponent's weapon and then turn it against them. In addition, fist attacks are never blocked by spear-weilding brutes, which are otherwise at least a mild pain in the ass. There's even a metal cestus you can buy that makes your fist fighting all the more effective.
** Strangely subverted again in ''[[Assassin's Creed: Revelations
* ''[[Super Smash Bros.]]'' has an [[Egregious]] subversion of this, intended or not; though [[The Legend of Zelda
** There's also the items, such as the beam sword and the laser gun, which can give an otherwise unarmed character an advantage in range and power.
** Ganondorf ''has'' a sword, and even brings it to the battlefield, but never uses it outside of [[Victory Pose|VictoryPoses]] (Melee) or taunts (Brawl). This aspect of the character is a significant source of [[Snark Bait]].
* In ''[[Grand Theft Auto IV]]'', it is entirely too easy to disarm an opponent attacking you with a knife while you have nothing but your fists.
** To be fair, though, Niko is a trained soldier, whereas most people he fights are decidedly not.
* Averted in ''[[The Godfather (
* ''[[Ace Attorney]]'' example: {{spoiler|Manny Coachen brought a knife to a surprise attack on a 72-year-old man and he ''still'' lost. Alba's a [[Badass Grandpa]].}}
* Subversion: In [[Call of Juarez]], {{spoiler|Juarez pulls out a knife after being beaten in a fistfight by Billy. He still loses, but only because Reverend Ray draws a gun and shoots him.}}
* "[[Batman: Arkham Asylum]]" subverts this. Enemies with weapons are significantly more dangerous than unarmed enemies, and even require different dodging/countering tactics. If a mook finds a gun, you'd better make him your priority, or you will be one dead Bat.
** Both played straight and subverted in [[Batman: Arkham City]]: enemies with stun batons still require you to hit them in the back and there's new shielded and armored enemies that require a specific method to damage them, but anyone wielding a knife can be defeated instantly with a specific counter attack as stated above and enemies with guns give you the option to quickly drop a [[Smoke Out|smoke bomb]] when they spot you. Batman also has a special attack that destroys any weapons the targeted mook might be carrying so he or others can't pick it back up afterwards.
* In ''[[Modern Warfare]] 2'' {{spoiler|General Shepherd}} defeats Soap when the latter tries to knife him.
* Sam Fisher in ''[[Splinter Cell Conviction]]'' seems to love this trope when it comes to close combat situations.
** To be specific, he defeats an officer attacking him with a knife, with the knife ending up being stabbed through the officer's hand.
** Then there is this incident where another person attacks him ''with an American flag''. The person ends up with a bit of flagpole in his shoulder.
** Of course, he is not above shooting people in the head as part of his CQB regime.
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== Webcomics ==
* Averted in the ''[[Order of the Stick]]'' prequel "On The Origin Of PCs" where {{spoiler|we first meet Belkar as he sits in jail charged with fatally stabbing several people in a bar brawl. He argues that they shouldn't have brought fists to a knifefight}}.
{{quote|
{{spoiler|'''Belkar:''' "Exactly!"}} }}
* Subverted in [https://web.archive.org/web/20130208014607/http://piratesvsninjas.smackjeeves.com/comics/464878/chapter-1-page-32/ this comic.]
* Completely and utterly averted in ''[[Sluggy Freelance]]'', at least whenever Oasis and Kusari around. They're almost never seen fighting without knives, small scythes, or other sharp implements in their hands, and their enemies usually have quite a few stab wounds when all's said and done.
* Played with in ''[[Juathuur]]'': both Bivv and Mijuu {{spoiler|try to disarm Rowasu, the latter succeeding, but his use of a sword is actually a ''handicap''. They both die soon after.}}
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== Web Original ==
* Subverted in ''[[Survival of the Fittest]]'', when Ric Chee and Bobby Jacks fight with [[Good Old Fisticuffs]]. When Bobby realises that, conversely to his expectations, he is getting beaten down mercilessly (by a guy with no combat expertise whatsoever) he pulls out a knife (well, scalpel) and {{spoiler|immediately fatally stabs Ric.}}
* In [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUEFxSOVd6A the brutal pilot] of ''[[Cause of Death]]'', the slob grabs a steak knife out of the kitchen drawer. The killer is not amused. Well... he's amused a little. And then he pulls out {{spoiler|a granola bar, with deadly results.}} Yeah, you read that right.
* [[Nyx Crossing]], with Frank and the leader of the natives.
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* [[Big Bad]] Shredder of ''[[Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles]]'' had claws as part of his costume, yet he never really does much shredding with them.
** In the cartoon, yes. But in the original comics he put them to good (read: bad) use.
* ''[[Conan the Adventurer (
* One episode of ''[[The Boondocks]]'' features [[Stylistic Suck|''Soul Plane 2'']], a movie where terrorists take over a airline run by African Americans. One of the terrorists pulls out a knife in mid-flight and tries to announce his superiority...right before a half-dozen passengers tackle and beat him down.
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* Generally averted in real life. Most self-defense classes you might take will urge you to find a weapon, even a rock or a car key, to use rather than your bare hands. In fact, most martial arts experts, like Bruce Lee's knife-expert friend and student, Dan Inosanto, say that it's virtually impossible for an unarmed person to beat a proficient knife-fighter(which is why they teach disarming so you are the one weilding the blade and the other person is left weaponless).
* However, in some cases this might be [[Truth in Television]], with some provisions for skill levels. Among the untrained, it's a good bet that a knife-wielder is going to attack with the knife and nothing else, making him more predictable; the knife acts as an attention-focuser. The unarmed one, however, lacks such predictability; he may use his fists, his feet, his elbows, knees, head, or entire body to attack. Of course, this helps only if you actually know what you're doing and they don't. [[Bruce Lee]] was in favor of this philosophy.
** A proficient knife-fighter, on the other hand, will attack with the knife, as well as his other arm and legs, negating the only advantage the non-wielder has. This is one of the reasons even martial artists specializing in unarmed combat still prefer to use a weapon when one is available. Another reason is that frankly, one's default body is a rather crappy weapon compared to even the simplest of improvised clubs (clubs don't hurt you when you whack someone with them), down to and including a simple rock of the right
* There are actually several martial arts that have moves specifically designed to disarm a weapon wielding opponent, however, they're often nowhere near as flashy as in fiction. They're normally simple, disarm the attacker as quickly as possible.
* Real life: [https://web.archive.org/web/20130211003421/http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20091221/us-storm-snowball-fight-officer/ This guy] brought a gun to a SNOWBALL FIGHT. Doesn't seem to have ended well for him either.
* Lampshaded by [[Richard Pryor]], who said every guy has to be "Macho Man! I'll take that knife and [[Ass Shove|shove it up your ass]]!" but it doesn't take long for you to go from "Macho Man!" to "Dead Person!"
* [https://web.archive.org/web/20131109034531/http://www.boiseweekly.com/CityDesk/archives/2011/12/09/skinhead-knocked-out-by-victim-now-faces-hate-crime-sentence#.TugtO1YcKfw.facebook This] neo-Nazi held up a black man at knifepoint. Too bad he didn't read the man's shirt, which said "Spokane Boxing Club Champion."
{{reflist}}
[[Category:Fight Scene]]
[[Category:Weapons and Wielding Tropes]]
[[Category:Never Bring
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