Never Bring a Knife to a Gun Fight: Difference between revisions

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Line 1: {{trope}} {{quote\|''Remember the first rule of gunfighting... "have a gun."'' Both a [[Stock Phrase]] and a staple of the [[Action Adventure Tropes\|action genre]]. A character comes into the scene armed with what he thinks is sufficient, only to find out he is severely outclassed weapon-wise, because he brought the entirely wrong ''type'' of weapon (usually the superior weapon is revealed after the first person has committed to a fight). Could lead to a [[Curb Stomp Battle]] (which would make it a [[Pre-Mortem One-Liner]], or maybe a [[Bond One-Liner]] if uttered after), or the character running for his life. ▼ \|''Jeff Cooper''}} ▲Both a [[Stock Phrase]] and a staple of the [[Action Adventure Tropes\|action genre]]. A character comes into the scene armed with what he thinks is sufficient, only to find out he is severely outclassed weapon-wise, because he brought the entirely wrong ''type'' of weapon (usually the superior weapon is revealed after the first person has committed to a fight). Could lead to a [[Curb Stomp Battle]] (which would make it a [[Pre-Mortem One-Liner]], or maybe a [[Bond One-Liner]] if uttered after), or the character running for his life. A popular subversion is [[Never Bring a Knife to A Fist Fight]]. Subtrope to [[Combat Pragmatist]]. Elmer Keith is the [[Trope Namer]]... he was a gunwriter and Idaho cowpuncher, and the phrase is sometimes called "Keith's First Law". {{examples}}▼ ▲{{examples}} == Advertising == * Parodied in a Geico ad series which ~~mocks~~mocked Stock Phrases. In this particular sketch, "Is the pen mightier than the sword?", a ninja brandishes his sword. The camera changes to a guy signing for a package with a pen. He opens the package and removes a taser, with which he takes the ninja out instantly. == [[Anime]] and [[Manga]] == Line 24 ⟶ 27: ** Marv also took out a SWAT team that were armed with automatic rifles while all he had was a hatchet. == [[~~Fanfic~~Fan Works]] == * ''[[Forged in Fire]]'' has Brutus Bones say this exactly, after shooting a knife-wielding antagonist. * Occurs in ''[[The Shocker Legit\|Shocker: Legit]]'': Line 30 ⟶ 33: She pulls out her ''katana''. I feel a little stupid. }} * This is a theme repeated in a number of variations throughout the works of [[Eyrie Productions, Unlimited]]. It initially appears as "Overstreet's First Law of Tactics", from contributor Kris "Redneck" Overstreet's story ''The Quagmire Project'': {{quote\|Take a stick to a fistfight. Line 61 ⟶ 64: * This scene is subverted in ''[[Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom]]''. Indy is confronted by several sword-wielding enemies. Smirking, he reaches for his gun, only to discover that he does not have it, and then runs away. ** In ''[[Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull]]'', Indy warns Mutt about the dangers of bringing a knife to a gunfight (as he takes out his knife, but the Russians have revolvers). * Nearly subverted in one of the final fights in ''[[Wanted]]'': Wesley is in a gun fight with a [[Knife Nut]]. Notably, the [[Knife Nut]] was more experienced, got to choose the battlefield (enclosed area with lots of visual obstructions), and very nearly killed him. ** The Knife Nut earlier explained the various advantages knives have over guns, justifying his weapons preference. Mostly it came down to them being easier to aquire, requiring little maintenance, and never running out of bullets. * Near the end of Thai martial arts movie ''Chocolate'', a group of high ranking thugs grab katanas and rush at the Yakuza father of the protagonist. [[Crowning Moment of Funny]] ensues when he promptly shoots the first one down, though the rest close in and it turns into a sword fight. Line 70 ⟶ 73: * As much as it is a love letter to the [[Katanas Are Just Better]], ''[[Kill Bill]]'' follows this rule. Nearly any time the Bride's Katana is pitted against a gun, the gun wins, such as when the Bride charges into Budd's trailer, he is able to subdue her with a shotgun. And when she invades Bill's home, she's got a pistol out as her primary weapon rather than the sword slung on her back. * Subverted in ''Yojimbo'', where during the climactic confrontation {{spoiler\|Sanjūrō's knife-throwing skills turn out to be more deadly accurate that Unosuke's gunslinger skills.}} * Parodied in ''[[30 Minutes or Less]]'' with "You just brought a gun to a bomb fight, officer!" * The final scene of ''[[The Warriors (film)\|The Warriors]]'' has Swan, knife in hand, facing down Luther and his gun. Weirdly enough, Luther shoots, but Swan dodges and ''nobody else gets harmed''. Nobody else, that is, except for Luther, who takes a knife to his gun hand. * ''[[War Horse]]'' has a scene in [[World War ~~One~~I]] where the British cavalry appears to have caught the German encampment flatfooted, only to find that the Germans were prepared with a hidden defensive line of machine guns to mow them down. As a German officer says afterward, "Did you think we'd have a camp on open ground without it being defended?" * In the BBC adaptation of ''[[Tom Jones]]'', when Lord Fellamar's attempted rape of Sophia is interrupted by her father, he turns his sword on the older man, assuring him that his class and education have well prepared him for anything the squire can dish out. Squire Western pulls out a pistol and promptly shoots out one of Fellamar's knees. * Routinely inverted by the ~~[[Star Wars\|~~Jedi Order]] throughout the ''[[Star Wars]]'' franchise. In the words of the prequels' stunt coordinator, they've chosen to use swords against [[Frickin' Laser Beams]], "so they'd better be damn good at it." == [[Literature]] == Line 80 ⟶ 83: * Subverted in ''[[Nation]]'': (paraphrased) "His gun will run out of bullets before my knife runs out of sharp." * Played straight several times over the course of ''[[The Dresden Files]]'', mostly by supernatural forces. Most non-humans, and even some magical humans, eschew guns in favor of claws, swords, or other melee weaponry, or specifically think to counter someone's magic ability when they do consider long-range combat, neglecting to consider firearms. At least one very powerful practitioner thought she had Harry dead to rights after disarming him of his staff and blasting rod, only to learn a little too late that they should have taken his gun too. ** Also, Kincaid remarked to Harry that, if he wanted to kill Harry, he would use a high powered sniper rifle from a long distance away, neatly avoiding any Death Curse. * In [[David Weber]]'s ''[[Out of the Dark]]'', the Shongairi come off as [[Insufficiently Advanced Alien]]s because their entire war doctrine revolves around conquering pre-industrial races. Guess what happens when troops trained and equipped to [[Curb Stomp Battle\|curb-stomp]] natives with pointy sticks comes up against modern military hardware? * [[Meaningful Name\|Hiro Protagonist's]] weapon-of-choice in ''[[Snow Crash]]'' is a katana. At one point, Hiro's use of the katana actually leads to a standoff when he's able to find cover that the gun-wielding mooks he's fighting with can't shoot through, but they're all too far away for him to attack. He actually taunts his adversaries that they can take as long as they like because "Katanas don't run out of bullets." * In [[Michael Flynn]]'s ''[[Spiral Arm\|The January Dancer]]'', the owners of the ammunition factory try to avert this by burning it down and then parting for opposite sides of the civil war. This means that when an outside force intervenes, bringing a gun to the knife fight, she tramples all resistance. * Averted ''and'' played straight in one sequence at the end of the third novel of the ''[[Sten]]'' series of novels. The traitorous leader of the coup attempt is confronting the Emperor where he is attempting to hide in the engine room of his personal flagship, and draws a ceremonial sword with the intention of slicing the Emperor into pieces with it slowly. The Emperor then smiles and demonstrates that engine rooms are a great place to scavenge crowbars, which are very handy at smashing ceremonial swords. The traitor then pulls a gun, and it would have been a very short novel had the Emperor's chief bodyguard not caught up at that moment. == [[Live Action TV]] == Line 94 ⟶ 98: * McKay in ''[[Stargate Atlantis]]'' is cornered by the Genii into finding the location of all the pieces of a device to reveal a Zero-Point Module. Upon finding it on a wall-sized map, he asks for a knife, which the Genii are reluctant to give. {{quote\|'''McKay:''' You all have ''guns.'' Someone give me a knife.}} == [[Real Life]] ==▼ * [[Bruce Lee]] himself mentioned that this would be a stupid idea, although he was talking about using martial arts against guns but the idea is still the same.▼ * This may be inverted in [[Real Life]] if the knife-user is skilled and/or the gun-user isn't. [[Your Mileage May Vary\|Opinions differ]] on the details, but at very close ranges the one with the knife has a lot of advantages, which is compounded by the fact that outside of the police/military, people often massively overestimate their own ability to use a gun effectively. All things being equal, guns are better at distance of 10 m or more. At 3 m or less, the knifeman really may win. Between 3 and 10 m, everything depends on the gunman's skills (or rather lack of them). Most people are able to shoot only one shot at the time a running man can cover that distance, and if it misses, the knifeman literally has the edge. People not trained on handguns are likely to miss against a moving target, even at short distances. One of many reasons the Bayonet was invented. Shoot if he's far, fight if he's near. What many people, including above, miss about the [[wikipedia:Tueller Drill\|Tueller Drill]] is that 21 feet, or whatever, is the distance at which a person with a melee weapon becomes a threat to a gunman. Somewhat later on, people added the notion of the knife "winning" from some distance below that, which is very far from reality: someone with a gun is a lethal threat from maximum effective range down to 0.0m. The distance issue is more about not getting stabbed at all; the actual chance of the assailant both executing a stab and not taking severe return fire afterwards - and the human body is all but guaranteed to retain motor functions to complete draw-and-shoot even after a hit - are never ones you'd want to bet on. In other words, there are techniques to defend against a knife-wielding runner-in, but no sane martial training suggests knife-wielding running-in as a viable method of countering a firearm. [[Taking You with Me\|More than once in one's life, anyways.]]▼ * One has somewhat better odds with slightly larger melee weapons; being hacked with a sword or axe or smashed with a club ''does'' tend to interfere with return fire, though certainly not enough to make it a sure thing or even a particularly good idea. * In 2013, a man armed with a baseball bat and a knife attempted to rob a gun store in Portland, Oregon. [http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/26/us/gun-robber-armed-with-bat/ It ended about how you'd expect.]▼ == [[Video Games]] == * In one possible ending of ''[[Yo-Jin-Bo]]'', the main characters — who are mostly samurai and armed with swords — are attacked by ninja with guns. The heroes die very quickly. * In ''[[Team Fortress 2]]'', you get an achievement for the Spy by fatally knifing another Spy who has his gun out. ** The Scout plays this straight with his domination line "Don't bring a wrench to a gun fight." * ''Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas''. No matter how many guns the player has when invading Madd Dogg's mansion for the first time, he ends up with just a knife. The player is not even allowed to pick up dropped weapons until half way through. A much later mission ends with a helicopter crash leaving the water-treading protaganist outside of the ship he has to infiltrate. All his weapons (sob) are at the bottom of the drink except his knife. However, here, a quick swim to shore and knowledge of respawning weapon locations makes the ship much easier to overcome. * Subverted somewhat in Metal Gear Solid 3. Snake(Big Boss) talks about how sometimes a knife is more useful in close-quarters than a gun, thus he carries both and even wields them simultaneously, the knife held in a [[Reverse Grip]] next to his pistol's grip. ** [[Resident Evil 4\|Leon Kennedy]] doesn't use his in tandem with his pistols, but he also points out the utility of a knife in close quarters when he gets the drop on Ada. * ''[[Mass Effect 3]]'': [[Deadpan Snarker\|Garrus]] mentions this trope by name when fighting Phantoms, finding the whole concept silly. As Garrus is a sniper, the amusement is justifiable. Line 121 ⟶ 116: == [[Web Original]] == * ''[[Marble Hornets]]''. In Entry #50, we see that Jay starts to carry a pocket-knife with him whenever he goes somewhere with Alex in case he tries to pull anything. In Entry #52, we discover that it doesn't actually help as {{spoiler\|Alex had a gun the whole time and attempted to kill Jay with it}}. * Brandon Morse from ''The Federalist'' [http://thefederalist.com/2015/10/13/if-you-want-to-protect-yourself-a-gun-works-a-lot-better-than-a-plastic-phallus/ delivers] a somewhat [[Comically Serious]] analysis of hypothetical scenario where a large dildo would be used for self defence, after someone tried to protest campus carry using said object (or maybe just took that as an excuse?). == [[Web Comics]] == * ''[[Girl Genius]]'', [http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20101011 here], with extra [[Steampunk]] goodness: Line 129 ⟶ 126: * A mugger finds himself on the wrong end of this trope in [http://wapsisquare.com/comic/02242005/ this] ''[[Wapsi Square]]'' strip. * ''[[Schlock Mercenary]]'' once had a mobster who realized that he had brought a [http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2010-07-30 prybar to a gunfight.] ▲== [[Real Life]] == ▲* [[Bruce Lee]] himself mentioned that this would be a stupid idea, although he was talking about using martial arts against guns but the idea is still the same. ▲** ~~What~~This ~~many~~may ~~people,~~be ~~including~~inverted ~~above~~in [[Real Life]], ~~miss~~but ~~about~~only ~~the~~with a lot of caveats. The famous [[wikipedia:Tueller Drill\|Tueller Drill]] is founded on the idea that 21 feet~~, or whatever,~~ is the distance at which aan average person with a melee weapon becomes a threat to someone with a '''holstered''' gun and that beyond that, a potential gunman can draw and shoot without getting stabbed at all. ~~Somewhat~~Somehow it later ~~on,~~got ~~people~~[[Common ~~added~~Knowledge]]d ~~the~~into a notion of the knife "winning" from some distance below that, which is very far from reality:; someone with a gun is a lethal threat from maximum effective range down to 0.0m. The ~~distance issue is more about not getting stabbed at all; the~~ actual chance of the melee assailant both executing a stab and not taking severe return fire afterwards - and the human body is all but guaranteed to retain motor functions to complete draw-and-shoot ~~even~~unless ~~after a~~the hit strikes somewhere critical - are never ones you'd want to bet on. Granted, there are many potential complicating factors, including but not limited to the speed of the melee assailant, the draw speed of the gunman, and their individual skills with their weapons. Larger melee weapons do have higher odds of interfering with return fire, though certainly not enough to make it a sure thing or even a particularly good idea, and the increased encumbrance also complicates the issue of successfully reaching the gunman. All bets are off if trying to thwart an active shooter who already is on the attack, of course. In other words, there are techniques to defend against a knife-wielding runner-in, but no sane martial training suggests knife-wielding running-in as a viable method of countering a firearm. [[Taking You with Me\|More than once in one's life, anyways.]] '''[[Don't Try This At Home]]!''' ▲* In 2013, a man armed with a baseball bat and a knife attempted to rob a gun store in Portland, Oregon. [http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/26/us/gun-robber-armed-with-bat/ It ended about how you'd expect.] ---- Line 139 ⟶ 141: [[Category:Stock Phrases]] [[Category:Weapons and Wielding Tropes]] [[Category:Never Bring a Knife to Aa Gun Fight]]