Persona 4/Headscratchers: Difference between revisions

*** Protagonist isn't necessarily normal. He had had {{spoiler|Izanami's Touch}} before and had already heard the voice of Izanagi in his head, not to mention he already had the power to enter the TV, which on itself means something.

*** It still would be theoretically possible for her to be dragged into a battle with the Shadows. Remember that during gameplay, simply touching a shadow is sufficient to trigger a battle. Chie couldn't see where she was going due to the fog, so there should've been a high likelihood of her ramming into a Shadow at some point.

**** You took that out of context. The shadows that {{spoiler|Adachi}} was referring to were each characters' personal shadow selves, not random shadows.

**** It's possible that Shadow Yukiko ''wanted'' her further in the castle so she would meet up with Shadow Chie and had the patrolling Shadows not attack while she wandered around.

** What version of Persona 4 were you guys playing? Kanji was still obsessed with Naoto through the end of the game. Kanji just has no ability to deal with girls - do YOU think a guy that awkward could make a pass at someone? Plus you only have Naoto in your party for about two months of game time that are completely overshadowed by the finale of the game - the subplot likely petered out because there were more important things going on. {{spoiler|The game is pretty clear that he's not gay, all of his sexual hangups stem from him having traditionally feminine interests and being shunned for it. Since girls gave him the hardest time over it, he ''really'' can't talk to girls. And he '''really''' can't talk to Naoto. It's obvious he's attracted to girls - he got a nosebleed seeing Chie and Yukiko in their swimsuits. He was absolutely gobsmacked at the idea of Naoto in a swimsuit and disappointed when she wasn't. But it's Kanji. He's not good at communicating with girls - something common to plenty of heterosexual teenage boys. And I say this as someone who had really hoped for a gay character in this game, but it's pretty obvious the plotline for Kanji was not a simple coming out story, but of someone having to grapple with society's expectations for gender roles. And society expects that a guy with feminine interests is gay.}}

*** Also notice that the guys were also in their swimsuits during the nosebleed incident. Besides I'm a Naoto/Kanji shipper, but I thought his ambiguous sexuality was [[Word of God]] and they made him socially inept so the player wouldn't be 100% sure of which way he went. I agree with your take on his shadow back story though.

***** Actually, Kanji didn't get a nosebleed when the girls showed up either. He ACTUALLY got it when the boys were put in the water, and were suddenly wet. He is staring at THE BOYS when the girls notice his nosebleed. I think the game intends him to be ambiguous, but leaning towards gay, especially when you consider that his crush on Naoto is purely based on the fact that she looks and acts like a feminine boy, and it goes away when he finds out she's a girl.

****** Seriously, guys, why can't we just leave it at [[Word of God]] saying "it's whatever you want it to be" and be done with it?

******** But that contradicts your first point, that Izanami is a product of the Collective Unconsciousness. If she was Atlus would have atleast made a point of adding an "as long as humanity blah blah blah I will always exist" speech(or atleast implying that this was the case), but nowhere did they imply that Izanami would be back. She knew she was gone forever when she spoke her final words. Not all gods are infallible/absolute in mythology, and since SMT usually clings very strongly to the mythologies they use that's not gonna change; not even for persona. On a different note, Nyx is the fear of death too?

******** I'd like to point out that the only person who asserts the final boss is the Goddess Izanami of myth is the ''final boss herself''. Whose primary domain seems to be deception. Who's to say she isn't a Shadow that became strong and intelligent enough to enter the real world, or something similar? She's powerful and manipulative, but that doesn't mean she's a deity.

******** Two points: first, people keep talking about Protagonist using the World Arcana to defeat Izanami. I think you're talking about the ''Universe'' Arcana, and no, he didn't; Myriad Truths is not quite the same thing. So far, P3's MC is the only character to have used the Universe Arcana. Igor states he'd never seen it before, and there's no mention of it at all in P4. Second, Igor states that the power of the Universe means ''nothing'' is impossible for the user, which suggests to me that the MC could, indeed, have destroyed Nyx. He ''didn't'' because, as is revealed in The Answer, Nyx wasn't the real problem; and, I would postulate, because he had no idea what would happen if he outright destroyed the embodiment of death itself. In short, Nyx ''could'' have been destroyed, but it might not have been a good idea, and either Protagonist was not using the same power his predecessor was.

********* They don't mean the Universe Arcana, which was only in P3, they mean what they say, The World Arcana, which is the actual in-game Arcana of Izanagi-no-Okami if you look at his actual usable persona in a second playthrough. The major difference between the two most prevalently used/referenced Tarot decks is that one has the Universe card while the other instead has the World card, hence the presence of both Arcanas in the series.

**** I guess Igor knows about every shadow wiped off existence and for each one slain, he gives Protagonist some money for his efforts.

*** They probably figure that any money obtained in the TV World is best invested in the exploration itself, and whatever equipment and consumables they'll need to survive there. Yosuke won't have a motorcycle to spend on if the party can't purchase that Revival Bead that can bring him back to life in a pinch. Since Protagonist is their leader, cornerstone party member, and most level-headed of the group, they probably believe he's the best choice for managing their finances.

* The mythology refrences are brought up in the true ending, but why does no one bat an eyelash at every other deity (like Thor) that Protagonist can use, only at {{spoiler|Izanami}}?

** From their dialogue it seems none of the characters even knew who Izanami was.

** I interpreted that situation like this. When Chie helped Yukiko in the past, it was because she wanted to be the hero, somebody adored and looked up to. It was a bit of an ego trip for her to be "the strong one". By the end of her social link though that's no longer her motivation. Now she's doing it because she honestly wants to help because she ''cares''. In other words, she started doing it for the wrong reasons, but after she's doing it for the right ones.

** Yeah, just remember that her Shadow say the real reason of why Chie wanted to protect Yukiko so badly was because she was actually jealous of Yuki's gifts and talents in addition of secretly enjoying having total control over her friend.

*** Regarding Yukiko, I think that wasn't what needed to be taken from it. At first, as the link wound down, I thought of it the way you did and got upset, but by the time it was done, I understood that the question wasn't "Should Yukiko run the Inn?" but "Is Yukiko strong enough to make that choice for herself?". Her real problem was that Yukiko felt she was too weak to make choices for herself. Since everyone expected that she would follow tradition and take over the Inn, she felt she was forced into it. Rather than confront her weakness and decide what she wanted from life (whether the Inn or else), she dreamed of a handsome prince that would magically solve her problems for her (hence her Shadow). Yukiko's Link was more about her realizing she wasn't that weak - that no magic prince would solve her problems, only she could. Taking steps at alternatives gave her the confidence to believe that she ''could'' choose another option if she wanted, so she no longer saw her life choices as pre-ordained. When she chooses to pursue taking over the Inn, it's not because of [[Status Quo Is God]], but because she feels strong enough to make a choice for herself. She actually loved the people who worked there like family and felt very strongly about the reputation and history of her Inn - remember how the first time she dealt with the reporters, she was terrified to talk to them? In her Link, after all this personal growth, she's strong enough to stand up for what she really believes in and chases them off herself. That's when she comes to understand that taking over the Inn isn't something she has to do, but something she wants for herself. She also left her options open - she said she'd try running the Inn and see how it went. She hasn't given up learning other job skills if she finds its not what she wanted. Yukiko's Link wasn't so much about changing her job path, but the journey to making a life choice. I can accept that. Regarding the other girls, I'm not sure what you're getting at with [[Status Quo Is God]]. By the end of all the other girl's links, Chie comes to understand that she really cares for others and decides to become a police officer to protect them, Rise has regained her confidence in herself and decides become an idol again, and Naoto comes to grips with her issues of her gender and whether it's an obstacle to wanting to pursue a male-dominated profession. It's the same as the men in the party - Kanji learns to accept his feminine side and Yosuke gets over his conflicted feelings about Saki's death and his life path. The S. Links are about personal growth for your party - the more dramatic, life-changing S. Links are from NPCs.

*** The issue I have with that is that none of the other party S-Links involve major life or career changes, only changes in self-perception (from what I remember, anyway, it's been awhile). Yosuke's S.Link doesn't see him plan to move back to the city, only to decide that he loves Inaba in the process and change his mind. Kanji's S.Link doesn't see him struggle with his feminine side only to realize he's a true man and then disdain all the progress he makes. Chie and Naoto basically come to grips with themselves in a comparitively mild, straightforward way, but Rise and Yukiko at least start out wanting to improve their situations by actively deciding to get out of them, which is not easy, especially for young women, and then deciding that no, everything was fine before, and they themselves were the problem for not accepting their situations for what they were. Yukiko never asks herself what made her feel trapped in the first place, just that she DID feel trapped, and now that she doesn't feel that way, she puts aside all the ambition she discovered and then faithfully pursued the career tradition gave her (considering her strong [[Yamato Nadeshiko]] themes, I was really disappointed when she didn't break the stereotype and go off to seek her destiny on her own). Rise doesn't regret getting out of the idol business until another idol comes to take her place-- something that she ''had'' to have known would happen eventually, just by the nature of the industry, and then she chooses to go back, because she's come to terms with herself as an idol (and because she's jealous of Kanamin's attention, apparently). I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I just don't buy it.

** He's a [[Silent Protagonist]].

*** Easy enough to get around

> What the <nowiki>**** </nowiki> do you think you are going to make with that?! }}

****

* Why the hell do you organize a crossdressing pageant in your high school for "the fun of it", when all the students are clearly homophobic and think the participants are freaky as hell for even considering entering?

** For the lulz.

* I'm rather interested why the characters in SMT:Persona and Persona2 (IS and EP) can use their Personae anytime they want in their cities, but the chars of Persona3 and Persona4 have to go to a specific location (Thartarus, Abyss of Time, Midnight Channel) and/or at a specific time (dark hour). Is there a special reason for that? And before you say: "Maybe they didn't want to use their Personae outside of Tartarus/Midnight Channel" In Persona4 Rise clearly wanted to use her persona at the field trip (she was drunk though).

** The worlds of Persona/Persona 2 and Persona 3/Persona 4 are very different. For the first set you're using actual demons, not just the mystical personifications of your teenage issues and in the second set it isn't even clear whether or not a regular Persona (with the exception of the ones going berserk) can actually manifest itself in the regular world.

** Ever considered that in P1 and P2, their entire city became under the domain of their respective eldritch horror?

** Persona 3 does show Personas being used (or active) outside of the Dark Hour, when {{spoiler|Chidori}} is attacked by her own Persona. As for why it didn't work for Rise, she may not have actually been trying to summon her Persona, just talking about it. Or she may not have been in the right frame of mind to do so, as you pointed out. They ARE physical/magical manifestations of the user's inner self, after all.

*** Uncomfortability being seen as a woman ''is'' par of her gender identity, regardless of the reason. It also doesn't explain why she dresses up just to go around town or continues to at school after her cover is completely blown. She's certainly more comfortable being seen as a man, and regardless of the reasoning that's pretty clearly transsexual or genderqueer to some extent.

*** The transsexual interpretation still comes off as projecting after these quotes:

{{spoiler|'''Naoto''': You're absolutely right.}} }}

 

** I feel like it's mostly [[Values Dissonance]] at play here. Japan--as the game demonstrates--doesn't really think of gender and sex as different entities, and sex segregation is much more prevalent in Japanese society, so that's what Japanese players are relating to and getting out of it. It's not the same in the West; the sexes here are not exactly equal but it's nowhere near Japan's level, so it's no wonder people over here are deriving a different gender issue from {{spoiler|Naoto}}'s character arc. It is more socially relevant than the original meaning! Lines like "though I will one day change from a child to an adult, I will never change from a woman to a man" make it clear that she believes that you can't be truly male if you don't have a biologically male body; she continues to dress like a boy, bind her chest and talk in a low tone even after her reveal, and she insists no one treat her differently (i.e. as a girl) and reacts badly to other people seeing her body as feminine. All the way up to the end of her social link and beyond. To me this really, really, ''really'' doesn't fit the profile of someone who identifies as a woman and is just faking the whole guy thing to get her peers to accept her. She legitimately likes being seen as male in daily life. People who strongly identify as women... don't. But then, why does she try to accept herself as a woman and allow female pronouns to be used? Because she is living in a small backwater village where people carry strong traditional ideas about gender roles and have no concept at all of a gender/sex schism or nonbinary gender. If she's physically female, she is a girl and can't be anything but a girl, because it doesn't make sense otherwise. The creators probably also think the same way, so to them, the general population of Japan, the characters in the story, and {{spoiler|Naoto}} herself, she is absolutely female--there is simply ''no other option''. But to people who know about the concept (predominantly a Western idea), have met people who are transgender or are transgender themselves probably can't see her as anything but that. [[Death of the Author|Their interpretations aren't really incorrect]], they are just thinking outside of the given cultural context. You can argue about how much a foreign concept of identity can apply to a person who has never heard of it, but yeah.

*** I agree. This is how I thought of it in the first place. It also makes sense regarding Kanji's ambiguous sexuality, and his crush. He did indeed fall in love with a male. They just were biologically female.

** Considering that you can get stabbed, shot, electrocuted, fried, blown up, poisoned, frozen and hurt in a variety of ways without dying we can attribute this to two different things. The first is that the TV world operates on very different laws than Earth does. The second is that they needed it that way to make the plot work.

*** There is also the fact we do find food in the TV world. Odd morsels and whatnot. Sure, they are mostly carried by shadows, but the shadows must acquire them somewhere. Then we have Shadow what's-her-name first dungeon, where you can get and bring to the real world actual Sake. The TV world has food and beverages, it just never a plot point.

** The dungeons are created in response to that specific person's subconscious mind: [[Your Mind Makes It Real]] writ large. It might respond to a hunger impulse in the creator's mind by providing food and water. This would even explain why the Shadows carry small food items from time to time: either the creator didn't find those particular items or they were discarded.

* We're supposed to [[Translation Convention|assume everyone's speaking Japanese]], right? Then...Teddie's bear puns really don't make much sense.