Automoderated users, Autopatrolled users, Bureaucrats, Comment administrators, Confirmed users, Moderators, Rollbackers, Administrators
5,814
edits
m (remove non-existent user links) |
|||
Line 1:
{{work}}
== [[
== General ==
* Who is the biggest hero of the Original Trilogy? Is it Luke? Han? Ben Kenobi? Leia? R2-D2? No, it is the Imperial officer who says not to shoot the escape pod containing Threepio and Artoo at the beginning of ''A New Hope''. Had they shot down the pod, just to be sure, Artoo and Threepio would never have reached Tatooine, they would never have found their way to Luke and he would still be stuck as a farmboy in Tatooine, the special message would never have reached Luke or Ben Kenobi and as such Princess Leia would never have been rescued and the Rebels would never have the plans to destroy the Death Star, Han Solo would never have been hired by Ben and never subsequently joined the Rebellion, and, further down the line, Luke would have never discovered his destiny, trained with Yoda, found out that Leia
** From that perspective, however, Leia's the biggest hero. The officer would have shot it down if he had known it contained occupants; he was duped. So Leia's the hero for ''knowing'' that she could trick the Imperials by firing off empty escape pods at random, then hiding the all-important droids in one of them.
*** From this perspective you can thank Obi Wan for all this, since he allowed the Organa family to adopt Leia and no doubt raise her into the tough-as-nails princess she is.
*** You guys are failing to understand what the definition of 'heroic' is. It definitely isn't some action by the character that indirectly caused a chain of events leading to victory decades later. 'Heroic' is most easily defined by accomplishing incredible feats with great courage in the face of impossible odds, fatal dangers, or horrifying terrors. While Obi-Wan for example of course is a hero, he was not the hero responsible for victory in a New Hope
**** Exactly, by the logic of whoever started this, the heroes that [[
*** [[
**** except that the OT doesn't really have a protagonist by the definition of the word.
** For what it's worth, though, even in the framework of the movies, the pod being shot down, destroying R2 and 3PO would still not necessarily imply Luke remaining a farm boy; for all we know, Obi-Wan could have decided to train Luke as a Jedi otherwise. Let's just leave it at that... - neoYTPism
*** Or the Force could have something to do with it.
** Hello, this is the Troper who started all of it - after reading through the comments, I realised that the pod not getting shot down is one of many crossroads, turning points and pivots in the whole Star Wars plot. There are several others sprinkled across the films. It's a little like with alternate-history fiction - there's a "divergence point" where things take a different turn. If the pod was shot down, things would have been affected - some things could have continued to progress as they do - but it's not the end of the galaxy, so to speak.
*** One more word on the pod not getting shot down: This troper always took it to be along the same lines as Vader wanting the prisoners alive: If they just blew it up, they would never know for sure what might or might not be concealed in it. By leaving the escape pods intact and then collecting them, they could see exactly what information the rebels had collected.
** In a ''New Hope'' Luke explicitly says he wants to join the Imperial Storm Troopers, so the droids are shot down, he becomes a storm trooper, The Emporor and/or Vader detect the "force is strong in this one." and well...
** Well not exactly. He says he wants to go off to the academy, not because he ''wants'' to be a storm trooper, but because it's his only ticket off Tatooine. He later says he doesn't like the Empire either.
** Still the point still stands, had the droids been shot down, Luke would have wound up a Stormtrooper, which puts him in the sights of th Sith, would he become Sith Lord Skywalker, be killed, or realize his destiny still?
*** He wouldn't necessarily have become a stormtrooper. After all, Obi-Wan's still around, presumably keeping a moderately close watch on him, and Obi-Wan definitely knows that it would be a Bad Idea to have Luke go off to Imperial Academy.
*** All four of the above Tropers are wrong. Luke wouldn't become a Stormtrooper, he'd be a PILOT
*** Of course, even ''Han'' went to the Academy and later ended up doing other things. If Luke never ran into Vader or the Emperor
**** There's no way he could ''not'' draw the attention of Vader or The Emperor, though. At some point, either word would reach them about a "Skywalker" from Tatooine, or they would sense a disturbance in The Force, leading them to him.
*** Actually Luke said he wanted to join "the academy", not necessarily become a stormtrooper. This troper finds it much more likely for Luke to wind up an Imperial pilot. Or at least start down that track before the name Skywalker becomes well known enough to get someone's attention upstairs...
**** Isn't Luke a little short to be a Stormtrooper?
**** The radio broadcast, which included cut scenes with Biggs, makes it clear the "Imperial Space Academy" trains pilots for both military and civilian purposes. Biggs had been assigned to a civilian freighter from which he was planning to jump ship.
* The Imperials fire green lasers, and the Rebels fire Red. Green electromagnetic waves have a higher frequency than red waves, and so have more energy. Therefore, as expected, the Imperials have superior weapons.
* Not sure if it was intended from the beginning, but it makes sense after Episode V {{spoiler
* [[
** Why would they? Leia wasn't doing anything, and they both thought Anakin's kid was dead at this point
* The Death Star can travel through hyperspace. Otherwise it would take eons to get from Alderan to Yavin IV.
** That's a given, isn't it? Otherwise how would it be an effective weapon if it took it hundreds of years to get from place to place?
* Initially, I thought the title "Phantom Menace" referred to the threat of the Sith, and perhaps it does. But watching the movie more in depth, it also refers to Palpatine's scheme, which was all about creating a crisis so that he could become Supreme Chancellor. His original plan was probably
** Um, you realize that "Sith" and "Palpatine" are synonymous? As in the threat of the Sith is actually Palpatine
*** [[
** Get into the Senate as Palpatine, while getting in good graces with the Trade Federation
** Once in the Senate, take a populist, pro-government stance, favoring policies like the "taxation on trade routes" mentioned in the opening movie scrawl that are guaranteed to earn him the ire of powerful companies like the Trade Federation.
** As Sidious, get them to not only do the equivalent of a protest/strike by blockading Naboo
** Once the Trade Federation has invaded, get them to kill Queen Amidala.
** Use the outrage generated from her murder to call for a vote of no-confidence in Chancellor Valorum without looking ambitious/greedy.
** Break the blockade.
*** As a kid, I always thought Maul was the literal PHANTOM
** I always thought it was referring to Anakin Skywalker. In hindsight this really has 2 aspects to it 1) the shadow/phantom aspect that Anakin's future would loom over the world of the jedi, and 2) the stain that Anakin Skywalker
* It's quite ingenious when you think about it, and the only thing that made it fail was Qui-Gon sensing with the Force that Padme's life was in danger, and convincing her to flee. As a testament to his political skills, Palpatine managed to still make his plan work by getting her to call for the vote of no-confidence in his stead.-Bass
* When Anakin's stepfather is relating to him the story of his mother's capture in AOTC, he says "30 of us went out there, four of us came back". Randomly-selected to point to how grievous the losses were? Not so: the first attack on the Death Star in ANH has 30 fighters attack the massive space station, of which only four return. What's more, Cleat Lars was wounded, losing one of his four limbs, the means by which humanoids move around...and during the trench run Luke lost one of his four engines, the means by which his fighter moved around.
Line 50:
*** I can do you one better: Return of the Jedi was originally called "Revenge of the Jedi". It was changed at the last minute. You can find promotional posters with the "revenge" title.
*** The Phantom Menace is actually a fairly clever title if you consider it from the perspective of viewers introduced to the movie post-prequels. They wouldn't be going into the films predisposed to the notion that Palpatine is the true "phantom menace."
* While I was always far more forgiving toward the prequels than many people, one part that seemed too dumb to put up with was Anakin's conception: [[
** What's more, because of Anakin being a product of Darth Plagueis' research
** The extended materials extend the quality of it even further. Palpatine killed his master because he believed that his master intended to conceive a child using the Force, and that the child would subsequently kill Palpatine. Palpatine was right. --Wodan46
*** My uncle described a moment of Fridge Brilliance he had with that same conversation. Palpatine described the perspectives of the Jedi and the Sith; the Jedi are inherently selfless, forsaking personal things to benefit the Republic while the Sith are inherently selfish, "Treachery is the way of the Sith." Yet the Sith learned to control the force to create life and prevent death. The Jedi found a way to achieve immortality for themselves after death. Both are essentially contrary to the philosophical beliefs of the two factions, one discovering a power to help others and one discovering a power to benefit themselves. --[[
*** I was also confused by the contradiction of the ultimate expressions of the Light and Dark sides of the Force. It didn't make sense that the ultimate expression of the Light side was a form of immortality for oneself, while the ultimate expression of the Dark side was a technique to create life and preserve others. Then it occurred to me: the power of the Light side isn't about benefiting yourself; it's about becoming a part of the living Force itself to act as a guide for others. The main reason Force Ghosts exist is to guide the living. It's the ultimate act of selflessness, helping others even from beyond. OTOH, the ultimate power of the Dark side, creating life, represents the complete subjugation of the Force. It grants the Sith power over both life and death, essentially making him/her into a god. The Light is about acceptance and harmony with the Force, becoming part of it, and the Dark is about defying and controlling it. - M84
**** The whole Force Ghost thing, when you put it that way, is fairly reminiscent of the Buddhist concept of Bodhisattvas, people who are virtuous enough to get out of the reincarnation cycle and move on to Nirvana, but choose to stay behind and help others achieve Nirvana, which is a very interesting paralell with all the other Buddhist elements incorporated into Jedi Philosophy. I could be wrong about some of the Buddhism stuff, as I'm remembering it from a class I took four years ago, and I only took the time to use Wikipedia for spell-checking, not fact-checking. ~ [[United Shoes 37]]
**** That's not supprising given that Lucas originally baised the idea of the force on Taoist philosophy, much of which has been combined with buddhism over the years. some of the parralls can be seen in the light/dark creation/destruction duality
**** It even matches older expanded universe materials like the Jedi and Sith codes. The last line of the Jedi code is There is no death, there is the Force; while the Sith Code is The Force shall free me. Jedi accept death and the cycle of life, but join with the force to help others. The Sith create life and master nature, breaking the cycle of life.
* Little worried I'm misusing the phrase, but here goes: Jar Jar Binks. I was indifferent at first, then annoyed, then I watched ''The Phantom Menace'' again three days ago. I realized Jar Jar was not an idiot, nor hyper, nor a total goofball, just a poor, clumsy guy who was always in the wrong way at the wrong time. He was even capable of solemnity, at certain points, even in Episode I. Now, I actually respect Jar Jar as a decent member of the group! And then, in a further bit of Fridge Brilliance, I realized that Lucas probably didn't mean anything by using semi-real accents for certain species! These races likely didn't have Basic as their first language. They're probably taught something else during their childhood. The language shapes the mouth, and gives the accent, and do you expect a writer to make an accent up out of thin air? He's going to borrow from something he's seen! So no offense was meant! -- Lhikan
** Yeah well, lots of people are racist and sexist and all those other things without meaning to be. And I say that as an avowed prequel fan who ''never'' hated Jar Jar. --[[
** I'm a little on the first Troper's side, given that I figured out the same idea on my own before ever seeing TPM.
** I just figured Jar Jar was clumsy on land because he's an aquatic creature. Whenever he's in the water, he's swift and certain in his movements.
** He's in the water in TPM when leading the Jedi to the Gungan city. He's fairly good at swimming there. He also has a magnificent dive.
** The problem with this theory is that his natural habitat isn't water, it's air
** My father is not a fan of the PT, but he liked the CG-animation that went into making Jar-Jar. He thought as a interacting being, Jar-Jar absolutely worked. - [[Tropers/Premonition 45|Premonition 45]]
*** It really did at that: people hate Jar-Jar for being a [[
** I always took Jar Jar as a metaphor for what the prequels are about. In Phantom Menace he is comedy relief mostly, showing that despite what is going on this is a rather good time, people are happy and able to live. In Attack of the Clones he grows out of it a little, become more responsible, mirroring what is happening in the galaxy. And by Revenge when everything has gone to crap, Jar Jar is no longer comedy relief at all.
** In an early interview with the "actor" playing Jar Jar Binks, the actor mentioned that he had Jamaican relatives and was having fun doing a lighthearted parody of them as his inspiration for the character. Is it racist [[
*** And who would expect a small town boy like George Lucas to recognize the [[
* At first I thought the midichlorians in ''[[
** The whole midichlorian thing always bothered me too until I thought about it. The way I interpreted it was that the force was all about binding the universe together, symbiosis and balance and what not, and that midichlorians were an expression of that. Without midichlorians, sentient life would have no concept of the force, and without life forms as a host the midichlorians could not survive. For the force to work, you need both of them supporting each other. The force is still mystical, as the midichlorians are merely the connection, but I found it to be a very meaningful plot point. -darksider
*** It would have been even more meaningful of a plot point if George Lucas hand't lost his nerve and kept the elements of the script which dealt with the racial animosity between the Naboo humans and the Gungans. In the end, the two overcome their differences and work together to defeat the Trade Federation. The theme is still present in the final cut, but because the explicitly racial element was removed, one has to pick up on bits and pieces of subtext and probably read some of the supporting material before the [[
** And I recently had a Fridge Brilliance moment about people saying midichlorians [[
*** I saw that as a
** I don't understand why people get so worked up about midichlorians. They are NOT mutually exclusive with the Force being spiritual/religious in nature. For example, let's say God created mankind - does this change the fact that humans have DNA and are made up of atoms? If you hate the fact it makes Jedi "predestined", well sorry to break it to you but they were that way anyway previously, they just said 'force sensitive' instead of having midichlorians. In fact, they did test for Jedi before the midichlorians were mentioned in canon, and one must assume they had SOME way of scientifically testing for it in children. In fact, it would be sort of ridiculous if the genetic makeup/DNA/atoms/whatever
** A big problem with it for me is that it made being a Jedi predetermined instead of a matter of choice or skill, down to how powerful the Jedi is. That pretty much neuters the religious aspect of it. -Impudent Infidel
** I'm partial to the explanation that midichlorians aren't in any way force generators. A high midichlorian count is simply a symptom of somebody being highly sensitive to the force. - [[
*** On that note, one could argue that your midichlorian count makes it easier not only to learn the ways of the Force, but to also fall to the Dark Side
** or it can simply NOT be Midichlorians. Think about it. if the Force is comparable to a religion they might not know everything about the Force so they use midichlorians to try to make since of it. The prequels were all about talking about the Old Jedi's foolishness
** I realized the reason I hate the midichlorian explanation is because ''we already had an explanation.'' Yoda said that the Force was a field created from all living things. That's fine- it's mystical and far out there, but we've already seen it move things around and guide Luke and what-not. Now, we're told that somehow it's ''bacteria''? We've already seen bacteria in our universe, and it doesn't do any of the things the Force does. It's just like in Star Trek when the writers use Technobabble terms you recognize- it breaks the illusion.
*** I agree with this fullheartly. Midichlorians make things far, FAR worse. Because how do THEY interact with the force? And how do they share that interaction with the living beings? What of force spirits and places with Force "imprint", like the dark cave on Dagobah? Midichlorians not only answer nothing, they only make handwaving the Force
*** Ah, but what if the Midichlorian are Bacteria who are strong with the Force? I always interpreted Midichlorians as being an indicator, rather than a cause. Midichlorians like the Force, therefore they live in people who are strong with the Force. What always amused me about them was how their names sound passingly similar to Mitochrondrion, the organelles in cells that are described as "cellular power plants."
**** The parallel between midichlorians and mitochondria is actually brilliant. Mitochondria are symbiotic bacteria that have are capable of oxidative energy production, which the host cells cannot do on their own. In other words, they provide access for their host through symbiosis to a universal source of energy
*** EXACTLY. Midichlorians are '''not''' the Force. They can only communicate with it. They basically do the same thing on a microscopic level what we thought Luke and others were doing in the original movies.--Tapol.
*** Think of them more as sense organs, like ears or eyes. 1 eye or ear allows you to see light/hear sound, 2 allows you to triangulate. Insects have compound eyes, prey animals like rabbits/deer have them either side of their head instead of both up front for near 360 degree vision. Midichlorians allow you to sense the force, the more you have, the closer to compound eyes/360 vision you have.
*** I always interpreted the Force to be the active force representation of the Unified Field Theory - i.e. it is the unified force that governs all physics and movement within the universe - and hence that the Midichlorians just are a conduit to tap into the Force. I mean, technically, if everyone could tap into the Force just through years and years of practice, then Yoda would be literally a god by now
* I juuust realized that the R2 units on X-Wings are supposed to emulate the round observation dome on top of bombers. -- [[Tropers/Jonn|Jonn]]
* A moment of [[
** I thought this, too, until I stumbled across something George Lucas says in one of the DVD commentaries. He basically says that the Force is like a living entity, and that the Sith are akin to a cancer or disease, bringing it out of whack. Anakin/Vader fulfills the prophecy by doing away with the Sith, which requires him to sacrifice himself in the process. If a person's health is out of balance
*** Actually, YES you DO treat some medical conditions by injuring a person further. Especially with CANCER. Think about it. What is surgery? It's cutting a person open. The fact that you sew them up afterward notwithstanding. We're just so used to the idea that it seldom occurs to us that that is what surgery is. The other major way cancer is treated is by poisoning the patient, with a poison that
** [[
*** While I agree that there is a certain attraction to the idea that "bringing balance to the Force" doesn't just mean destroying the Sith and may not even be something good, that equal numbers reasoning never appealed to me. Jedi and Sith are the main organizations of Force-users, by they do not, in their totality, constitute the Force itself. Even just between Jedi and Sith, there's a lot more that goes into "balance" than how many living adherents each side can boast. [[
*** I had the same idea, thinking the "Balance" aspect was in fact Luke: A Jedi who could be fueled by his Emotions, but at the same time keep from being controlled by them. His defeat of Vader at the climax of RotJ seemed to be the prime example of that.
**** Just to add even more confusion, there's the issue of the so-called True Sith, who live in the Unknown Regions. That's two Sith orders to one Jedi order. And the True Sith are only mentioned in the KotOR games. How's that for [[
*** While I agree that Bringing Balance wasn't likely to be reducing the number of Jedi to equal the number of Sith, I always viewed the Jedi as fallen or failed. The Force is Life and exists in the myriad of shades of grey. Having only good would lead to an ineffectual Ivory Tower or totalitarian utopian society. Thus the Old Jedi order also needed to be removed to allow the Force to from freely through the universe without being shoehorned into a "human" flawed morality system. -[[
*** Bringing Balance to the force could be the galaxy's reset button. The KotOR games mention a Sith version of the chosen one. if both chosen ones are one in the same, then the job is reciprocated both ways. only a few jedi and dark jedi survive to spark their respective sides of the force after the prophecy comes true. this can be more than a one time occurrence,chosen ones for multiple eras. Arguably Darth Revan fits the bill.
*** It's interesting to note that the movies do not refer to a "light side", only a "dark side" -- it may not be quite right to think of the Jedi and Sith as some sort of gnostic opposites, but rather to think of the Jedi as the "balance" state, and Sith as a symptom of "imbalace" -- perhaps even imagining the two Sith as two extremes in an Aristotelian sense, with the Sith Master representing cold, calculating control, and the apprentice representing brutal strength.
*** Also, don't forget that the way one becomes the Sith Master is by killing the previous Sith Master. And at the end of ''Return of the Jedi'', Darth Vader kills Palpatine followed by Luke killing Vader
**** Alternatively, Luke is neither. He never finished his Jedi training. Vader killed Obi Wan, Palpatine and himself, while Yoda died on his own. No Jedi left, no Sith left. Balance! -- [[
*** Except Yoda told Luke in Return "Your training is done, now GTFO!" So yeah. Plus, on the [[
*** Vader killed Palpatine not out of aggression, but to save his son. At that point he had forsaken his sith training, fulfilled the prophecy, and brought balance to the force. Luke removing Vader's mask always felt more like fulfilling his father's dying request or at worst assisted suicide.
*** What I personally think on the matter of the "balance issue" is that it is essentially a reset button. We mustn't focus on the fact that all the Jedi and Sith died but WHY they died. This reason is misuse of the Force. This is more obvious in the Sith than in the Jedi. The Jedi are steadfast in their old ways without being open to new ones and adapting likewise. In fact think of it this way: an organization who only accepts infants as members whom they will then train to use a specific elite skill-set that cannot be used by those not chosen, they are also taught a strict set of beliefs that includes forbidding them from exhibiting emotion and having children of their own, any deviation from this and they are "turned to the dark side" and their former peers are sent to eliminate them as an enemy; all for the sake of order. Not how they would have you believe it. But this inability to adapt and quest for order and control indicates a misuse of the Force. The sentient Force would therefore have balance be to get rid of these old ideas that seem to have strayed from the point and unfortunately it is so ingrained the extermination is required. Cue Anakin. His wiping out of the Jedi and then of Palpatine led the way for Luke to create the New Jedi Order which was open and inclusive. Essentially Order 66 and Anakin's final act before dieing can be likened to the Great Flood of the Noah's Arc story. Also it should be noted that the only people distinguishable after becoming one with the Force, have all at some point embraced this concept: Qui-gon Jin was willing to train Anakin even though he was older and made an illegal bet because it was necessary, Obi-wan was also willing to train Anakin and Luke and also harbored emotions for Anakin
*** Personally I've always seen it more as '''Palpatine''' being the imbalance in the Force. I mean, think about it, the Force isn't in balance when Palpatine and Vader die, there's still Luke, who is a Jedi. Going by the view that it's about the Jedi/Sith being in balance, there's simply no evidence that the Force is in balance, because there are more Jedi than Sith at the end of the movies. Plus, as the Star Wars [[
** The point I think is that while sure, the Sith were a disease on the living force, ''so were the Old Jedi.'' They had become corrupted and misdirected, ossified, blind, dogmatic and tyrranical. If the Sith are a cancer, then the Old Jedi had become an autoimmune disease. To properly bring balance to the force, ''both'' the Sith and the Old Jedi had to be destroyed, and a new, redeemed Jedi order had to be rebuilt. So Anakin fulfilled the prophecy by destroying both the Old Jedi and the Sith, and fathering Luke and Leia.
** This was my idea on the "Balance" view of things, and it's a bit of an amalgamation of more than a couple of views stated above... I always applied the Taoist/Buddhist basis for the Jedi religion/philosophy rather strictly. Both Yin and Yang are necessary in complement to create balance within the universe, for without one the other cannot be defined - if one is diminished and the other over-reaching, the more heavily weighed side will start to corrupt/decompose in order to bring back the level balance. However, at the time of the Phantom Menace, the Sith - who were pure [[
** As an extra note, the novelisation of [[
* I never liked the Prequel Trilogy, but then I watched them all back to back...AND THEY'RE BRILLIANT! Mostly if you look into the character of Anakin. First the annoying little kid? Even as a child you see the seeds of his turning over to the dark side. He has zero respect for authority, and this comes from him being a slave having to out smart his master. We see this, even in Episode 1, when the kid has the balls to STEAL A STAR FIGHTER AND ATTACK THE DROID CONTROL SHIP! But here's the kicker to me, this distrust of authority seems to actually have more to do with the light side than the dark side. In Episode 2, we see that Anakin is rebellious, but basically good
* Something that I realized while watching the third movie about how R2 was able to destroy 2 super battle droids without any problem. He was lifted into the air and after spurting oil at them was able to use a jetpack like apperatus and not only escape but set the oil on fire to destroy the other droids. This scene was so awesome that I didn't bother to think about it, but later I wondered why R2 didn't ever use those things in the older movies, but then I realized that he couldn't. He was a rebel droid in the first trilogy and they most likely didn't have the funds to spend on maxing out a single Astrodroid. Not only that, but after he joined the rebels he was just another droid instead of general Skywalkers personal droid which mostlikely came with special privledges. Without his status he most likely put aside and while in the service of Leia he wasn't given his past armaments.
** R2 droids are made to be highly modular, and R2-D2's had a large amount of owners. They've likely changed his equipment loadout over time, as well, compounding why his enhancements seem so eclectic from movie to movie.
** Alternatively, it's noted that R2 seemed to have more advanced gadgets in the prequel trilogy that, logically, would have been really useful in the original trilogy
** 3PO was mindwiped, R2 wasn't.
** I disagree that R2's mind was wiped. The line at the end of ROTS is "Have the protocol droid's mind wiped." There's no mention of R2-D2 being formatted.
** Proof of this is in the novels R2 showed Luke a hologram of Anakin and his last meeting with Padme.
** And to prove the above point: At the beginning of ANH when Luke is cleaning the droids R2 shows his true brilliance. Luke is prying at the data disk that contains the plans to the death star
* Last summer a friend of mine and I watched all six of the films in order
* Even though all of the villains of the OT all die before the end, Luke Skywalker
* A just-realized moment of my own: The "Vader" in Darth Vader is, in the real world, the Dutch word for "Father." In the Original Trilogy, this was merely a foreshadowing hint to Vader's true identity. However, in the Prequel Trilogy, where Palpatine grants him the name, the father meaning seems to not be present. But then I realized: Anakin's fall to the Dark Side resulted because of his desire to save his wife and unborn child. He fell because he was acting as a husband and father. The name Vader takes on a much greater meaning now I realize that. -- [[
** Also, when Palpatine probably gave Vader that name thinking that Anakin, a being of nearly unlimited power in the Force, would become the "father" of the new order of Sith.
** Actually, according to [[
*** Since The Force in ''A New Hope'' is portrayed as an "old religion" and Vader as a sort of Imperial cleric, it is quite likely Vader meant Father in the priestly sense. Fridge Brilliance indeed!
*** However, Lucas did have the idea for Obi-Wan and Vader being Luke's Dark and Light Fathers, symbolically.
** Vade is also a verb which means "vanish." Darth Vader, in other words, is esteemed so powerful that he figuratively makes his enemies disappear. The name also implies everyone's belief that Anakin Skywalker is [[
** Also note that Vader's first task under Palpatine was to inVADE the Jedi Temple.
*** Apparently, "Darth Vader" was a name that existed from the first draft of Star Wars... but it belonged to some low-rank imperial officer. A person completely irrelevant in the grand sheme. So whatever meanings
* This one concerns the much-derided moment in ''Return of the Jedi'' when Palpatine congratulates Luke on losing control of his anger, [[
** No, actually it was not stupid, not at all. Think about it. Palpatine's goal is not just to turn Luke to the Dark Side, but to turn Luke to the Dark Side ''as his new apprentice''. If he had said nothing and Luke had gone on to kill Vader in anger, that act would have been an act of ''defiance'' against Palpatine - the slaying of Palpatine's apprentice. Luke might have fallen as a result, but he would have fallen as a ''rival dark Jedi'' to Palpatine, and that would have been no good for Palpatine at all. Even if he was confident that he was powerful enough to dispose of Luke, he loses his apprentice
*** I'm not sure that's totally right either - it wasn't a matter of obedience vs. defiance, because it isn't as if Palpatine is willing Luke to kill Vader in spite of himself or anything like that, and if Luke had done it it STILL would not have been out of any sense of obedience to Palpatine, it would have been purely out of his own anger. What Palpatine was doing was forcing Luke to think about how much stronger and more capable he was once he started giving in to anger. He first made Luke feel as helpless and frustrated as possible, and then he wanted him to feel empowered by his hate. The goal was to have Luke say to himself "he's right, if I act like a passive zen master I don't get what I want and all my friends die. If I act on my feelings I become strong enough to kill Vader. I need to follow this path from now on to get what I want, and I need to learn this path from this old bastard - for now." that would have given Palpatine another powerful servant with the standard Sith "fickle loyalty in exchange for power I needeven though I hate you" arrangement.
**** Even better- If Luke had just killed his father in a momentary rage, at the end of a battle for his life, he might have immediately regretted it. He might have had a "What have I done?" moment, and rejected the dark side right then and there. Even if he didn't, Luke would only have been taking a step towards the dark side, which wouldn't have been enough as Palpatine was right there and it was about to be 'join me or die'. Palpatine needed Luke to consciously decide to give in to his anger so that there would have been no going back. It had to be a choice, not a reaction.
* I finally understands
* For the absolute ''longest'' time, I was of the opinion that Anakin only wanted to become a fully-fledged Jedi because he just wanted power. Then I realised that in Episode II, he has recurring dreams about his mother suffering - ''he wanted to save his mother'', and he couldn't get out of his Jedi commitments when still a Padawan. When he goes to save her and fails completely, it starts to break him. In Episode III, he still wants to be a master so he can have more time with Padme and his future children, but the council still don't let him because he's unstable.
** The novelization makes this motivation explicit. It's not the only thing it clears up either. The reason the prequels are regarded so poorly is because George Lucas took too much of the subtext, background, and motivation for his characters for granted and never bothered to explain to the audience what was going on half the time. This was likely an effect of having lived in this world and with these characters for YEARS; Lucas was so close to the materal he lost the ability to asses it objectively. Had he let another director handle the prequels it is likely they would have been far superior in quality, and not nearly as loathed as they are
* One of the biggest things everybody mocks the prequel trilogy for is the chemistry, or lack thereof, between Anakin and Padme. But it occurred to me that Anakin's awkwardness with Padme, especially in Episode II, is entirely [[
** Doesn't save Padme's awkwardness with him, though. Or the fact that she shows no discernible reaction when he reveals to her ''he's a mass murderer of Sand People.''
*** That may count too. She doesn't care at all that Anikin just killed a whole camp of people, because she's learned to be emotionally detached, but it could also hint at some fantastic racism there. We know that the humans on Naboo and the Gungans dislike each other. It seems likely that she could regard the Sand People as sub-human. It also tends to keep with the way humans in Star Wars tend to be. Leia refers to Chewie as a "walking carpet" in one scene, which could be considered a bit speciest as well.
*** Well, she had been in the public eye from a young age, and had never gotten much time for more intimate relationships until AOTC.
*** Yeah, Padme's been [[
*** Exactly. She may very well have been horrified at Anakin's actions, just that her training for queenship so long ago taught her to not have a meltdown. Of course, that's put into question when she later marries said mass-murderer...
**** Overlooking some of the dialogue/plot issues the prequels had in some places, I've always thought Padme was a great foil to Anakin. He was a man who couldn't let go of his personal attachments for the sake of the higher cause; she was a woman who had sacrificed so much of herself for the greater good that she hardly had anything personal to speak of. She was always strong in her moral convictions, but Anakin's passionate endeavor hit her right where she was weakest.
* I was pondering why the robots in the ''Star Wars'' series are all called "droids"; most of them are about as far from traditional androids as you can get. And then it hit me: "an" also means "opposite of", so the opposite of an android would be, logically, a "droid"! The genuinely humanoid ones like C3PO are noticeably rare and probably a more recent invention than the other types, by sheer virtue of their complexity. OK, so Anakin was able to create one from scratch, but he's a freaking genius. That was kind of the point.
** Saying Anakin built 3PO from scratch is a bit of a stretch. We know from the films there are other droids like him in existence
** A comic
** Except the "andr" in ''android'' comes from the Greek word for ''man'', and the "oid" means ''like''. So it would literally mean robots in the [[
* Up until ROTS, this troper used to think Vader's black lenses were [[
** It also looks like fire as we see the mask descending over him, symbolizing Anakin's descent into Hell.--ncfan
* I realized something about the OT: Luke's first and last spoken lines in the OT have to do with choice. In ''ANH'', when we first meet Luke, his Aunt Beru asks him to remind him to tell his Uncle Owen to make sure a translator droid can speak Bocce, to which Luke says "Doesn't look like we have much of a choice, but I'll remind him". And towards the end of ''ROTJ'', he says "Father, I won't leave you" as his redeemed father Anakin dies. - [[Tropers/Premonition 45|Premonition 45]]
* There is one very powerful theme that crosses almost the entire saga and can only be fully understood by putting both trilogies together. In Episode III Obi-Wan suggests that he raises Luke himself while Yoda says no, that he should be raised outside of the Jedi life. This is elaborated more in the novelization, where Yoda believes that he lost the duel with Sidious because he had spent his life trying to hold on to past Jedi tradition while the Sith learned to evolve. In the case of Anakin, the Jedi life was forced upon him and he constantly resented it
** And one line that perfectly enhances that theme is in ''[[
** The Yoda theory is confirmed in the Thrawn Trilogy; when Luke is relflecting on the passing of Obi-Wan's ghost, he claims he is the last of of the Jedi... then he hear's Obi-Wan's voice "Not the last of the old jedi, but the first of the new" --[[
** It also explains the "bring balance to the Force" prophecy quite cleanly. The Sith don't represent balance because they're too self-indulgent and cruel. But the Jedi don't represent balance ''either'', because they're too [[
*** You noticed that too? I figured out a theory recently on what 'balance' could possibly mean to the Force, which seems to be more like the life energy of the entire galaxy: if the Force itself is alive, how could a stagnant, hyper-controlling and totally unchanging Jedi Order possibly be ''good'' for it? In nature, stagnation usually equals death. The Sith philosophy seems like a good alternative in theory, but the way the Dark Side corrupts and perverts life makes it seem more like a cancer - growth for the sake of growth, power for the sake of power. Anakin's entire life was basically forcing the Force to act more dynamically, to encourage healthy development. - [[
* I came to this conclusion last summer when I was big into my conspiracy theory Orwellian "People are Sheep" etc. phase: We're meant to hate Jar Jar. He represents the stupid, uninformed masses who come in and frak up democracy by voting without any real opinion of what's going on. He gets guilted into giving his support to Palpatine because it makes him feel good, just like how so many voters choose the candidate who "feels" like they've got everyone's best interests in mind. Jar Jar's single vote sets us on the path that will kill off the last, lingering vestiges of democracy in the Old Republic. And keep in mind what we've seen him doing in the past. He's a clumsy backwater hick who gets kicked exiled for causing massive chaos with his own clumsiness. Then he gets picked up by Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and for the rest of the movie, we can barely make it 20 minutes without some new scene of Jar Jar clumsily making gigantic messes of parts shops or armies. And yet, for some reason, this buffoon is who we trust the entire fate of democracy to. Hmmm.... ~[[United Shoes 37]]
* George Lucas was inspired by many things in creating Star Wars: the old Buck Rogers serials, Joseph Campbell books on mythology, Japanese Samurai movies like ''The Hidden Fortress'' on so on. It just occurred to me that Lucas may also have been inspired by Medieval tales like the King Arthur legend as well: The union of Anakin is Padme is that of a knight
** Lucas has long acknowledged that Joseph Campbell's work on the Arthurian legend inspired a lot in Episode IV. One example you missed; Obi-wan presenting Luke with his father's Light Saber is analogous to Arthur claiming Excalibur
* I just had a stroke of possible [[
** Which game me some fridge light- not only was Luke pleading with his father, Vader just learned about his daughter, saw what Palpatine was doing, and didn't want to do more to her,
* This bothered me for the longest time. I used to think Vader was an incredibly dumb character, mostly because he is so inconsistent in his actions. One minute he is a loving, caring, albeit obsessive husband who wants to protect those he cares about, and next he's murdering children. His psychological transformation into Vader was sudden and not fully explained. I used to chalk this up to simply Lucas's crappy writing. But then I began researching psychological disorders, and I stumbled across Borderline Personality Disorder, a mental state in which people tend to have varying extremes of emotion, reason and the like. They can't seem to decide on a single core personality. And then it hit me at last: this is Anakin's problem! He's got BPD! A scientific explanation for his all-over-the-place behavior! This explains how he could be trying to fight Luke one second, and then suddenly switches sides and kills Palpatine. His mind is just wired that way. Similar to bipolar disorder, actually. If Lucas actually had BPD in mind when he created Vader
** [
* Also, I'm not sure if this was already mentioned here,
* Lots of people complain about the Jedi using the clone army, saying that it is immoral and pretty stupid. And I agree. But then you ask why didn't the Republic levy troops from the hundreds of thousands of systems that belong to it? But then I realized: one of the biggest problems with the Republic was its ''corruption''. Most Republic worlds were too damn lazy and cynical to levy troops until their planet gets invaded, and even then wouldn't do anything after. The Republic worlds would rather use a slave army then get their hands dirty. The Jedi did something reprehensible by accepting the clones, but they've spent their entire lives serving the Republic with many in the Republic expecting them to fix their problems, and when there comes a problem that the Jedi cannot handle, the Republic still sits on its ass and compels them to sacrifice their morals to save billions of apathetic citizens from the ruthless droid armies.
** We ''do'' see non-clone members of the Republic's military. Presumably they are the results of recruiting or conscripting troops from the various member worlds. It is of course also possible that nobody wanted to offer their troops up to die first until there was already a full-fledged Grand Army Of The Republic in place, so the Clones, led by the Jedi, served to act as that core that got things moving. Still morally reprehensible, [[
** More than that is because some worlds like Naboo are basically just pacifist who are not interested in building an army, and only possess a pissy security force with only 1000 force strong. Its is quite amazing that they even survive so long since they share a planet with the Gungans who are a [[
* Another thing, and this sort of combines [[
** Except, Hitler and the Nazis didn't kill the Jews because of their religion, he didn't much care what they believed in. What HE did kill them for was the fact that they were Jews racially. He believed that genetically, the Jews were inferior and needed to be destroyed, since they were screwing up the gene pool. Which is why he also threw in gypsies and crippled people.
** Okay, okay, so maybe it might not have been motivated by contempt for their religious beliefs, but the point remains that Tarkin's like some historical villains in wanting people killed for their religious beliefs. There are probably some actual examples, probably in communist dictatorships, of it being about the religious beliefs of the victims. My point overall is the implied distinction between Palpatine and Tarkin... Palpatine's heinous evil deeds are clearly driven by his lust for power, but for Tarkin even lust for power isn't sufficient explanation for his heinous evil deeds. neoYTPism
*** Tarkin's line is really just a simple statement of fact. If I say, "There's no Dodo birds left," does that mean I'm condemning them because I have a personal prejudice against them? No, I'm just stating quantifiable fact, which is what Tarkin is doing, as far as he has any reason to believe. Tarkin doesn't offer any judgment on them, or say they ''should'' be dead because of their religion, he just says they're gone.<br />Tarkin's a bad, ''bad'' guy, sure, but you're ascribing qualities to him on extremely flimsy 'evidence'.
**** At the very least, though, judging by his tone of voice, he sure doesn't seem to MIND that the Jedi were killed off.
* You ever notice that the final duel of Episode III and the final duel of Episode VI has something in common
* You may begin to hate Hayden Christiensen's performance as Anakin, and wonder why Lucas isn't reining him in or directing more so that we like Anakin or feel for him or experience any sense of empathy for his plight. By the time you reach halfway through Episode 3, you may begin to actively hate Anakin Skywalker, even before his fall. Well played, George Lucas. ''You've been conditioning us to hate Darth Vader again.''
** one major problem: the fall before [[
** But you forget the fans reaction to it that small edit. Pure Hatred towards Christiensen. And just in time for Revenge of the the Sith to come out.
* Another case of [[
** What you've said echoes the comments of Kevin Smith, when he was interviewed for the History Channel documentary ''Star Wars: The Legacy''. I think a large part of why a lot of fans felt that the character of Vader was ruined was not so much about the whininess of the character, but the flatness of the actors portraying him.
* In the prequel trilogy, especially in Phantom Menace, much is made of Anakin's great power in the Force and how important he is as the Chosen One. Because of his general visual appeal, James Earl Jones' voice, and the admitted awesome of [[
** The power was what Anakin could have been and was supposed to become, but never did. He was going to be the super-end all force user...which was why Palpatine was after him to be his apprentice, and why he put Order 66 in place the moment he had Anakin on his side. He knew that with Anakin as his apprentice, rounding up the Jedi would be no problem...which we see in that he pretty much destroyed the Jedi Temple on his own
** By stopping Windu from killing Palpatine, he is partially responsible for the creation of the empire. Also, his killing of the children in the jedi temple didn't just demonstrate his descent into evil, but also cut off a major source of potential jedi, though granted, MAYBE it could have been done by the clones. Also, Vader's "force-choking" of imperial staff ultimately instills a sense of fear in them which probably plays a significant role in their actions. Also, the Vader-Luke confrontations probably had significant effects on the psychology of each, which is probably important what with Luke being the "last of the jedi."
*** Palpatine was feigning weakness -- the closeups while he is "vulnerable" show he's calmly gauging Windu and Anakin, manipulative as ever, and the very moment Anakin's made his decision, Palpatine's back on the offense, no longer panting and wheezing. The slaughter of the young Jedi was an atrocity, but also not something that we were supposed to view as a challenge -- it happens almost entirely offscreen, and it's something that, say, Maul probably could have accomplished with comparable results. All we see is that he's a competent Dragon, and that's about it. The Chosen One seems to be fraught with signs of his greatness, but ultimately about being in Palpatine's blind spot and/or siring the one who could bring about the end of the Sith, however indirectly.
* This is more of an EU Brilliance, but it has it's based on the movies. First, one has to wonder how exactly Palpatine became a racist, bloodthirsty despot growing up on pacifistic Naboo. I don't really have an answer to the bloodthirsty bit, but the xenophobia actually makes perfect sense. The only aliens that Palps would have known growing up on Naboo would have been Gungans, with whom the Naboo had had a sour relations with for centuries. No wonder he hated aliens, they were all Gungans to him!
** So, Jar Jar Binks and his kin ruined everything - that's what everyone's been trying to say, and it may be right!
** It's more insidious than that. Palpatine isn't himself a racist, and he frequently used non-humans as his pawns throughout the series -- it's even heavily implied that the Death Star wasn't designed by the humans. It's that he knows better, but humans are the apparent majority in the galaxy, and twisting them toward xenophobia keeps the hate flowing for the Dark Side and makes the populace more easy to manipulate. The Empire doesn't need to be racist, it's just more useful to him if it is.
** Exactly. Palpatine isn't a racist who holds nonhuman life in contempt; he's a [[
** All this is assuming that Palpatine is even his real name and Naboo is even his home planet....
* The human specism, and even racism, particularly on the part of the Empire. For one, it was a clever way to explain why we see so few non-humans on the Death Star, or as extras. Rather than say that they just didn't have the budget to create hundreds of aliens for the purpose of just background characters, the explanation is entirely in universe.
** One line by an Imperial officer in ANH said it all: "Where are you taking this...thing?"
** The second layer of brilliance has to do with the story explanation. Yeah, it does connect them to Nazis, but it goes beyond just allegory. It makes perfect sense that humans would be the most specist, since in [[
*** Maybe because many of the aliens in Star Wars universe are actually able to reason with others, develop a code of ethics, culture and political system just like us humans? Really, the only difference between humans and aliens in Star Wars is perhaps limited to appearance and natural habilitate. It is much more about racism in real life instead of animal rights. People in Star Wars
** Actually, this is brought up many times in the Expanded Universe
* think about who the best know force users to have a reverse lightsaber grip were. think about who their master was. the actual style is a reverse grip form of the shien form, which is. according to wookiepedia, basically a defensive form, with a bite.
* For a long time, the idea of "spice mines" seemed to be just a bit of silliness I quietly ignored. Mining spices? How ridiculous can you get? Then I realized that far from being stupid, it's perfectly reasonable. The most common spice in the world is salt, and do we get salt? From mines! - [[Tropers/Whitewings|Whitewings]]
** Except "Spice" is the name of a crystalline narcotic produced from inorganic spiders to catch beings made of energy, not flavorful minerals.
* Yoda's comment to Luke to sacrifice his friends for the ideals they cherish makes more sense when you remember that Yoda could've dispatched Dooku by allowing Anakin and Obi Wan to die. Not only would this have meant the loss of both Palpatine's apprentice and the future Lord Vader, it also would've ended the separatist movement early enough that the Jedi could've afforded more time to investigating the clones' true benefactor.
** What if Yoda had just pulled the two humans away? Would Dooku have killed himself to save his boss's plans? Or would he have rolled on him, or tried to escape? The Sith philosophy is inherently selfish; are they even capable of suicide for the benefit of others.
* Upon rewatching all six movies, it becomes clear that Anakin, by and large, was correct about the Jedi: they WERE keeping him back
** [[
** Point of fact: Mace only decided to kill Palpatine ''after'' he carved several Jedi up like a Hibachi chef. The toughest guy he fought, before then, was Kar Vastor, and he was {{spoiler
* Everybody--and This Troper used to fall into this camp--laughed their collective behinds off when Han Solo stated in ''[[
** That was what this troper thought too, but [[
** In the Expanded Universe, it's stated that the exact method he used was to fly through something called The Maw. What is The Maw? A giant nebula MADE OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF BLACK HOLES. Had the calculations been off by as little as three inches, he would be very very dead.
** However Obi-Wan clearly falls into the collective laughter. Seriously, check the look he gives right after the Parsecs line. Though, considering his intense dislike for flying in the prequels, maybe he doesn't know quite as much as the seasoned smuggler?
Line 202:
** This is something of correct/incorrect. A Parsec is a unit of distance, not time. So the disbelieving looks could be due to Obi-one being aware of this. However as stated the Maw is a collection of black holes, that if done incorrectly will result in death. So charting a short distance course through that is all the more bad-ass.
** I never understood why it isn't so strange for this to either be an in universe measurement or slang for one.
** Expending on the above comment, and completely discarding the canon EU explanation, I theorize that a parsec here is slang for a time measurement, much the same way that on good old earth, time measurements are used as distance measurements. The expression "Person X lives 3 hours away", or the derivation of the distance unit Lightyear from the time unit Year both are based on calculating the described distance from the specified time measurement and an assumed universally uniform speed. This makes sense in a world with varying distance measurement units
** Here's one I had: The Kessel run explanation is a microcosm of what went wrong with Star Wars. The original scripts and acting make it clear that Han is bluffing. Later, a technical explanation was cooked up by fans and official adopted as "canon". The focus of the movies changed from being more character-centric to being more focused on technical things like special effects and technical accuracy over thematic accuracy
** Confirmed, kinda. In Russian dub instead of the whole "Parsec" thing he says "It's the ship that shortened Kessel Run".
* In his introduction, Boba Fett is explicitly told not to disintegrate anyone, an order which he grudgingly accepts. Why, then, is he worried about Solo dying in the carbonite chamber? Did he plan on presenting Jabba with still-living atoms?
Line 210:
** Actually, in Original Trilogy holograms are more colorful then they are in Prequel Trilogy.
* The first character to call Luke a Jedi to his face is Emperor Palpatine. Luke called ''himself'' a Jedi knight on a few occasions, but pretty much every time he was told that no, he wasn't. Even Han accuses Luke of having delusions of grandeur when Chewbacca mentions it to him. Hell, Palpatine practically knights Luke himself, immediately before he gives up on trying to convert him and decides to just kill the insufferable whelp.
* [[
* The prequels, specifically Episode III, make Vader's redemption even more understandable. The very thing he'd turned to the dark side to save
* This is more [[
* Alternativly the [[
* Shifting here from its former entry on the [[
** [[
*** So a Fallout style Vault, of couse once your Lone Wanderer opens the door, the vacume would kill everyone in the Vault...
** Nope. Even if a shockwave rippling through the planet or the heat of the explosion didn't kill you, the acceleration you would undergo as the chuck of the planet reached escape velocity in under a second would turn you to paste. Unless you're Son Goku.
* Obi-Wan's been called stupid for hiding Vader's son on his home planet with his only living relatives, but he isn't, really. Tatooine is the place where Anakin spent years as a slave, saw his mother die, and committed his first genocide. Why the heck would he ''ever'' want to go back? It was probably the safest place in the galaxy for little Luke. Besides, it worked, didn't it?
* I just realized something about the fighting in the series. In the Original trilogy every strike was slower and more precise where in the Prequel you have lightning fast combat. Why does it make sense? In the Trilogy everyone's either a lot older
* The fact that if you do watch the movies in numerical order
* Obi-Wan and Vader are supposed to be Luke's evil and good Fathers. We know that. However, this logically makes Yoda his crochety, cranky, selfish, but still wise grandpa. And Palpatine suddenly becomes an abusive patriarch who likes pitting his descendants against each other.
* As many others, I sometimes wondered: why did the Death Star had to wait for Yavin IV to come into range instead of blowing Yavin itself and having a free shot. But then it occured to me: Yavin is a gas giant. It means it is mostly hydrogen. It is also way bigger than Jupiter, judging by view from the base. Had the Death Star blown it off like Alderaan, the shock would cause all the hydrogen to fuse, essentially making Yavin into one '''huge''' nuke. The resulting explosion would be likely orders of magnitude stronger, and would blast the Deast Star
* The prophecy isn't about Anakin. The prophecy doesn't even matter. The dual-trilogy isn't about [[
== Phantom Menace ==
* In ''[[
** Plus, considering that the planet's oceans go all the way through the core, there's the simple matter that the pressure at depths like that would be too much for any glass to handle.
* While I always liked the TPM, there was one thing that I think I completely misunderstood. At first, the Jedi Council is dead set against training Anakin, because he is too old, and there are all those Mommy issues... Then, in the end, the Council agrees, though Yoda still is against it. I always thought that they agreed because it was Qui-Gon's last wish and they maybe felt that they owed him. Or something. But, that wasn't the reason. At least, it wasn't the only reason. Anakin is the Chosen One
** Holy shit.
*** I second that. Holy crap on a cracker that's effing brilliant.
Line 234:
** But the workaround failed in the end. Anakin ended up being the one who tossed Palpatine in the pit and, by returning to the Light Side, destroyed the Sith utterly. Even when Luke turned to the Dark Side, he did not become a Sith. Anakin's whole reason for existing was tied up in that one CMO; even to the point of making his EMO years integral to the end result - he had to cross over for a time to defeat Palpatine.
*** There's a school of thought on this, given explicit voice to in the novelization of ''Revenge of the Sith'', which postulates that the Chosen One prophecy was misinterpreted by the Jedi. The Jedi Order had become moribund and was allied with a corrupt government; the Jedi themselves were out of balance with the Force. The Choose One, who would bring Balance to the Force would have to destroy the Jedi Order, as well as the Sith before balance could be restored. So, the Chosen One did fulfill the prophecy, just not in the way anyone -Jedi or Sith- expected.
**** I realized, about the time of the third movie, when i was depressed utterly with Lucas' lost talent, that he wasn't as terrible as i thought. "Balance to the force" -- how can it be balanced when there are two dark-practitioners and hundreds that follow the light? He manages to balance it on a fundamental, simple level: by bringing the Jedi in line with the Sith, only having a master and an apprentice
*** This has been brought up before
** The word 'balance' was poorly chosen. The Force and the Jedi religion are essentially Space Daoism. There is a natural order to things and the ultimate goal of a person's life is to fit himself into harmony with the universe, to find his path
* I realized the title ''The Phantom Menace'' is brilliant. It refers not only to the Sith, who are returning unbeknownst to the Jedi, and also to Anakin! Anakin is, or will be, a great threat to the Jedi, but nobody knows it yet!
** You may be right, though I've always thought it to refer, in all likelihood, to the opening dialogue:
{{quote
"Really? I don't sense anything at all!"
"It's not about the mission, master: it's something...elsewhere...elusive...." }}
*** But those things could both be the same thing! The "something" ''could be'' the Sith and/or Anakin! That's how I always saw it, anyway?
* There didn't seem to be much reason behind the battle of Naboo
** The battle of Naboo was a a [[
** That's my personal point of [[
*** Which, according to the
* Kind of a small thing but... why is it that in [[
** Perhaps as the queen, she acts as an honorary senator?
** She's speaking on behalf of her people, not as a member of the legislative body. She suggests a vote of no confidence and the Senate follows through. -[[
== Attack of the Clones ==
* When we see Padme in [[
** In Episode II, I always hated the scene where Anakin relates to Padme what happened when he went to rescue his mother from the Tusken Raiders. I chalked this hate up to either bad acting or bad writing, because Anakin seemed to do so much emotional flip-flopping in the film that I couldn't get a good bead on his character. It wasn't until I watched the DVD version of the film and noticed an extra few seconds at the end of that scene
* After a few ties watching the Yoda vs Palpatine fight scene I saw something, at the very end, just as Yoda manages to deflect the final force attack, you see him reeling back from it, and just before he rebounds and deflects it you can see his expression change, he is PISSED, and it's this surge of anger that gives him the ability to save himself at the last second, and also why he ran immediatly after, it wasn't that he didn't have the power to challenge him, but that he realized he couldn't do so without falling to unleashing the anger at what Palpatine had managed to do, and why no Jedi alive at the time stood a chance, it was just too personal. They needed to wait for a strong force user for who Palpatine's deeds wouldn't be so immediately personal.
** This idea actually reinforced earlier in the same movie, since there WAS a Jedi who managed to overpower Palpatine in combat: Mace Windu, a Jedi that invented his own form of lightsaber combat that feeds off of raw emotion and strays dangerously close to the Dark Side.
*** Mace Windu's fighting style is based on him letting himself enjoy the fight, and using the same principles as the Dark Side...does that mean he [[
* One of this criticisms I've heard for "Attack of the Clones" was that the final battle between the clone troopers and droids was idiotic - they just lined up and shot at each other. Then I realized that this might actually make sense for two reasons:
** The clone troopers were trained, but who trained the trainers? The Republic apparently hasn't a major war in a thousand years. That's a lot of time for bad ideas to creep into their institutional experience, and good ones to drain out
** Perhaps the last time the Republic fought a major ground war, shield technology was greater than offensive weapon technology on the ground
*** There's also another point that I realized while I read this. A lot of people
** Sorry...but no. First off, neither the clones nor droids actually use bolt-action rifles
*** Also, cut World War I Generals some slack. After the bloodbaths of the Franco-Prussian war and the US Civil War EVERYBODY knew that marching in ranks was really really dumb. The official tactic of all squads of all relevant Great Powers from 1870 to today remains "Fire and Movement." Some people stay behind cover and shoot to keep the other guys' heads down
*** Finally- the other great big ground battle in Star Wars, the Battle of Hoth, involves some pretty reasonable tactics from both sides, considering what they have at their disposal. The Rebels dig fire trenches and engage appropriate targets
**** You mean that battle that took place ''over 20 years later'', which had been filled with low-level conflicts and military actions involving a standing military force?
== Revenge of the Sith ==
* At the end of ''Revenge of the Sith'', we all know that Obi Wan totally misses possibly his best opportunity to finish off Vader once and for all. There's a few explanations attempted
** Nope. Read the book. Obi Wan knew that to kill him would be to show mercy. "He was not feeling particularly merciful." He wanted Anakin to burn.
** Obi-Wan didn't expect Vader to survive. Vader lost all three of his remaining real limbs and he was on fire. In a book set shortly after Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan is clearly surprised to hear Vader is still alive and kicking. Anakin was also the closest thing Obi-Wan would ever have to a son. He literally couldn't bring himself to strike a killing blow on a man who was essentially his child. --jedimaster91
* I thought Anakin's Force-choking Padme was done perfectly. Everybody knows since Anakin turns to the Dark Side, he'll Force-choke someone for the first time. But who? Obi-Wan? [[
** And illustrating that point of reliving that moment is this scene in ''[[
{{quote
'''Vader:''' I find your lack of faith disturbing. }}
** After watching ''[[
*** Maybe that's why it made Vader get so chokey.
** Interestingly, Vader's earlier statement was also right: "The ability to destroy planets is insignificant next to the power of the Force". Death Star, for all its power, was essentially taken out by a single force-sensitive fighter.
* Many people find Vader's [[
** [[
* I always thought the Buzz Droid missiles in Revenge of the Sith were stupid and pointlessly inefficient, since a missile would do the job better. Then I realized, they're ''anti-capital ship weapons.'' They're probably designed to break through the hull of large ships and wander through the crawlspaces ripping apart vital electronics and subsystems, causing more damage to a ship than a single explosive torpedo could ever do. This still doesn't explain why the fighter fired them at starfighters instead of their intended target, but at least they have a logical purpose.
** I'd think that right after the capital ship, Jedi Starfighters are also VERY high-priority targets. They had a good shot at Obi-Wan's fighter, and didn't have one at the capital. Remember, there were only two Jedi at the battle, both absolutely critical to rescue Palpatine. Also important is that they aimed for Obi-Wan. He is Anakin's moral compass just as much as Padme. He is also the one person Anakin explicitly trusts without question. Without him, Anakin has zero ties to the Jedi Order, and his expulsion would be only a matter of time. The only one who would teach him after that? [[
** The point wasn't that it was stupid to waste the buzz droids on starfighters, but that other than against capital ships they would be utterly pointless. They are laughable in comparison to guided missiles for example, who instantly destroy a ship instead of having to latch on and saw through it for 5 minutes to hopefully do some damage. The point is if they didn't use such a moronic weapon they probably WOULD have taken out both Anakin and Obi-Wan or at least had a chance to.
*** Point of order- they fired at both Anakin and Obi-Wan- Anakin was able to evade the missiles,
* In [[
** You can do better than that. Later in ''Return of the Jedi'', Vader outright tells Luke that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do."
* After the Vader vs. Obi-Wan duel in [[
* Also, in [[
* There was something I didn't notice before until I saw Revenge of the Sith again. In a scene in The Phantom Menace, Anakin is whittling a small charm "for luck" and gives it to Padme so that she can remember him by it. I always regarded it to be a throwaway scene, or just to emphasize Anakin's crush on Padme, but it gained new meaning at the end of Revenge of the Sith. During one of the last scenes, the dead body of Padme is seen at a funeral procession and if you look closely at her body, you can see that the same charm worn as a necklace. I then realized that this was purposely done: Padme's last words to Obi-Wan were "There's still good in him". Padme still sees Anakin as the person she once knew, not the one he has become, and she keeps that belief with her ''to her death''. The charm is ''literally'' meant to remember him by. --KH
== A New Hope ==
* The scene where Luke swings himself and Leia across the chasm in the Death Star escape was yet another homage/crib by Lucas from a classic movie, but no one ever seems to mention it in the rundown of all the tributes
* Many of the scenes that give Imperial Stormtroopers their reputation as coming from the [[
* So, the last two remaining Jedi have decided to go into hiding, taking Vader's children and secreting them away from him. One goes off to live with a trusted ally of the Jedi council. The other? They decide to put him on his father's home planet, with his father's half-brother and his wife, using his father's birth name.
Line 301:
== Empire Strikes Back ==
* In Empire Strikes Back, when Han is tortured by the Empire on Cloud City, he says "They never even asked me any questions." When I saw the movie as a kid, I thought they were just being mean, because that's what Bad Guys do. Years later when re-watching, I realized that the purpose for the torture was to create psychic bait for Luke. Because he saw visions of the future while he was still on Dagobah, we've already seen him respond to what's happening to them now!
* In interviews about ''[[
* This situation was even mocked by [[
** Well, the conversation with Han and Lando in their first meeting reveals that the Falcon was once Lando's ship. Because of that, it's likely that it was ''HAN'' that was wear Lando's old clothing and Lando is only now reclaiming them.
* Along the Lando-Cloud City line, something occured to me today about the Millennium Falcon's approach to Bespin. Vader & Boba Fett are already there, and Lando knows they plan on arresting Han & company as soon as they arrive. He can't tell them to go away because the Empire will massacre Cloud City, so he tries to have his sentries scare them off with a "misunderstanding." That way, it just looks like the Falcon got spooked & took off, and Lando can stick to the "Han Solo? I haven't seen that guy in years" story he probably
* A rather small instance, but in [[
== Return of the Jedi ==
* I used to find the victory of the Ewoks over the Imperial forces on Endor to be fairly unrealistic. Midgets in teddy bear suits, right? This is where most people stop imagining. Take it one step further though: Here we have a primitive, barbaric race of miniaturized bears, their arms as muscular as their legs, their brains advanced enough to develop flight and ranged warfare at the very dawn of their civilization. With no training at all, a normal Ewok can commandeer an Imperial speeder bike and successfully evade trained troops. Not only did they capture a Rebel strike force, but that strike force would have been utterly annihilated if it didn't happen to include the only Jedi in the entire galaxy. The Ewoks devour their defeated. The greatest army the Emperor could assemble was not simply defeated by this culture of killer-bears... they were eaten. -- [[
* In the beginning of ''Return of the Jedi'', Vader and Jerjerrod discuss the Emperor's impending arrival. Vader concludes the discussion with "I hope so, Commander, for your sake. The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am." I can't believe it took me a while to figure out what he really meant by "forgiving". Vader would just kill Jerjerrod quickly via a Force Choke, while the Emperor Palpatine would slowly torture Jerjerrod for fun, ''then'' kill him.
== Other ==
* While watching The Clone Wars movie just now it came to the point where Anakin and Ahsoka are coming out of hyperspace after rescuing Jabba's son and on approach to Tatooine
* Mostly an Expanded Universe thing, but there didn't seem to be an appropriate SWEU column in either comics or lit, so I'm posting it here: The worst damage the Sith ever did to the Jedi
* I've been watching these movies, reading the books, and playing the video games literally my whole life, and I can't believe that in all that time I hadn't wondered about this much earlier. But it hit me when I was playing ''[[
** It could be that most races aren't capable of making the sounds Wookies use to name themselves, so they adopt names in Basic for communicating with others. Greedo speaks a language with sounds humans can produce, so he can keep his old name; Chewbacca doesn't seem to.
* In the most recent Star Wars Insider magazine this troper got, there was an article talking about a book that will be released titled ''Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Conviction''. The author Aaron Allston in the article said that the Jedi Order ends up taking control of the Galactic Alliance government. He makes it clear that this is a bad thing, and that the situation would be akin to the World Wrestling Federation suddenly taking over NATO. He also points that apart from Leia, the Jedi have shown on the political level that they are only good at settling problems through quick and confident acts of violence. This troper thought about what the article said and then realized something. Practically no Jedi, except for Leia, has ever been a politician. The Jedi Order truly has little to no concept of the mechanics of politics and how running a government works. Then this troper realized that this explains a number of things. It explains why Obi-Wan assumed that Padme was a greedy, looking-out-for-herself politician
* Regarding the question on why Palpatine did not sense Vader turning on him, this troper realized something. In the book ''Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Revelation'', Ben Skywalker thinks to himself how Jacen Solo had become so saturated in war, danger and deceit that he ended up treating danger as noise to be filtered out
== [[
* The [[
** [[
** Well, while we're on fridge horror and Ewoks, consider that the Ewok captured our heroes with the original intent of eating them. Then the Ewoks assist our heroes, killing many imperial forces. Then they have a great feast at the end of the movie... a feast where they're using empty stormtrooper helmets as drums... Yum.
*** Not just eating the heroes, they were ok with roasting them ''alive'', too. So, with that in mind, let's revisit the feast: Singing...dancing...music...the occasional Wilhelm scream, off in the distance..."Leek-laloo-lalalooo-laa"... 'buuurp'...
**** On the subject of Ewok diets, Han, Luke, R2 and Threepio were all caught and hoisted smoothly by a game trap. By my rough calculations, that trap was designed to hold roughly a half a ton of ticked-off meat eater. ''What in any world were the Ewoks trying to trap?!''
** Another Ewok [[
* In Episode I, Queen Amidala has a decoy so any attempts at assassination would fail. Sounds bad, but it's just something that comes with such a high political position. Then you remember that she was 14 in the movie, so they would have to hire a similarly aged young girl to take any and all bullets intended for the Queen.
* In Episode II, Anakin kills Sand People. An act of revenge driven by hate. Yoda apparently knows about it, judging by a clip of his reaction, and does nothing.
** He didn't know what Anakin did exactly, all he heard was Qui-gon telling Anakin to stop, and his soon to be Vader breathing.
* In Episode III, Anakin Skywalker
* Not only was it [[
** In the EU, there are clones who do end up deserting, however their lives aren't exactly easy after that. Palpatine's method for dealing with deserters? Send Clone assassin squads after them. Or worse yet, what happens to clones who are injured to the point that they can survive, but never be fit for duty again? The only way you could officially leave the army was in a body bag.
*** Except for the fact that they didn't quite condone it. Get Traviss's preaching out of your head, what other choice did they have? It was either the clones or the few poorly trained and equipped security forces they had. Besides, they had no input into the creation of this army, it was literally a last-minute reveal. Is it still bad to use slave armies? yes it is, but it would kind of be a kick in the nuts to just cast them aside right after they deployed.
* Stop and consider for a brief moment the fact that nobody bothered to tell Luke was Vader's son. Essentially, Obi-Wan and Yoda had set up Luke to kill his father without ever knowing the truth. He might have even gone further down the Oedipus Rex path if he'd married Leia!
* In the original trilogy, Palpatine and Vader seem perfectly aware of the force, and Vader is shown mentioning it to other Imperial officers in [[
*** Supplemental materials actually show that the idea of religious persecution is one of the more tame opinions of Tarkin. Ever wonder why Imperials are all humans? It's because one of the policies of the Empire was radical and violent racism against non human species. EU writers have basically made Tarkin a Star Wars [[
**** Tarkin himself never expressed disbelief in the Force. That was Admiral Motti. Tarkin's later statement about Vader being the last of his religion indicates that he accepts Vader's power even if he's not a practitioner.
**** This extends to Dooku as well. In the novelization of Attack of the Clones, he is eager to establish the empire... a Human empire.
* In the Star Wars universe as a whole, [[
** Jedi are analagous to cops. They don't kill people "they don't approve of", they need just cause. "Keepers of the peace, not soldiers." What weakened them was having to fight a war. People who leave the order aren't necessarily "Dark Jedi"; that specifically requires falling to the Dark Side. The "Jedi business" is the equivalent of "police business, nothing to see here", the equivalent of a cop disarming
*** I know I certainly enjoyed the scenes where the Jedi engaged in due process, presented warrants, and reported back to the senate before taking major actions like attempting to assassinate a sitting prime minister. I mean, when a militaristic religious faction attempts to kill a sitting elected leader in his office without so much as informing anyone else in the government, that totally says "police" and not "dangerous terrorist" in any way, you're right.
*** Analogous, not "exactly the same." Don't be a smartass and stop ignoring and glossing over the fact that, you know, the "sitting elected leader" just made himself emperor for life, instigated a war that killed millions, and controlled the Senate that you're expecting the Jedi to go to.
* Here's a [[
** [[
** This particular bit of [[
* From the first film, it is established both that 'droids are sentient and self aware enough to be loveable, sympathetic characters, and that they're ''routinely memory-wiped''.
** supplementary materials say that it takes a long time without memory wipes to develop these behaviors. R2-D2 hadn't been memory wiped in decades, and I'm pretty sure Anakin built [[
* Why do clone troopers have New Zealand accents, apart from the obvious? If we're going by [[
* ''Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise.'' Obi-wan should know- he probably ''used to lead them.'' Alec Guinness' monotone delivery [[
** Also doubles as [[
* The Expanded Universe tells us that the main Imperial Pilot Academy
* Ewoks. They seem cute, but barbecue humans and now they have guns and vehicles?
* In the Star Wars Kinect game, Han Solo does his "I'm Han Solo" dance number singing how good it feels to be free from carbonite. All the while, he's standing not five feet from the carbonite freezing mechanism.
Line 358:
{{reflist}}
[[
[[
[[
|