The Incredibles/Headscratchers: Difference between revisions

****** And how are either of those "accurate"?

****** ...why?

*** Sorry guys, but the whole argument was pointless since, ya know, this isn't a Disney movie. ''Yes'' Disney owned Pixar at the time it was made, but that doesn't make it a Disney movie, so Pixar doesn't have to follow any of those "rules". (Which, by the way aren't true, I've seen blood, death and knives in actual Disney movies.)

** This leaves her with nothing to do. If this was made by Ralph Bakshi, Trey Parker and Matt Stone or the ones who did the "Heavy Metal" movie, she would have been used appropriately.

** Technically, it means something that appears to exist but doesn't, which contradicts she claims to be: off the gird, i.e. some thing doesn't appear to exist but does.

** Though she may not have have an incredibly developed arc, she was used as a way to show Syndrome's willingness to put someone (relatively) close to him in danger to call Mr. Incredible's bluff, and she then switches allegiances by helping the Incredibles. At the very least, besides being a front for Syndrome, that moment that proves his character was a "use" for her.

 

== No Capes! Why Not? ==

**** And the car didn't crash, either. She was the passenger, and died from the broken neck (and possibly other injuries to her neck and throat as well, silk is stronger than steel).

** Just what are capes ''for''? Besides [[Rule of Cool|the obvious]]. Does any uniform of a country's real-life emergency workers, police, or other superhero equivalents, actually incorporate capes?

*** Originally a cape was just another form of weather protection that was eventually superseded by the overcoat.

*** Superman's cape is based on the outfit that acrobats used to wear in the country where his creator lived, just like his whole outfit.

****** In the ''film'' no, but explicitly stating the reference-source for the powers may be a wee bit impractical when Disney didn't get Marvel licenses. it was clearly explained in other sources, though, so it can be taken for granted.

******* Actually, it can be deduced that it ''doesn't'' work that way, since she explicitly can't make anything else invisible by default, but needs to have a costume specially designed to turn invisible with her. (Also the fact that the scene with her underwater strongly relies for suspense on the assumption that she's ''not'' shielded while invisible.)

**** Since she can use it for forcefields, I wouldn't think the light would pass through her so much as it would bend around her skin and keep going. It would seem she can generate fields that deflect ''any kind of energy'', including kinetic.

*** Alternately, she might teleport photons from one side of her to the other. Or transfer light through hyperspace. Or create perfect directional holograms projected onto the lenses of other people's eyes. Anything's possible, it's all [[WMG]] at this point.

* Who cleaned up the world's remaining supervillains after the superheroes were forced into retirement?

** Well, we know that Bomb Voyage got away from Mr. Incredible with his money, and apparently retired to become a street mime outside of Gusteau's restaurant in Paris.

** Presumably, the cops now do it, probably with a lower success rate and a higher fatality rate. Bigger bads probably ended up falling to the army (We did see them approach the Omnidroid) and whatever organization Mr. Incredible's friend is from. I'm guessing that some supers "came out of retirement" in the past as well for bigger things (things on par with the Omnidroid or the Underminer. I'm sure aliens have declared war on earth at least once or twice), which probably landed them in hot water.

** Alternate theory: the [[Villain with Good Publicity|Villains With Good Publicity]]. Think about it: the government has just announced they're going to ''force all superheroes out of business''. Isn't it in your best interest to quash any reckless numnut who'd create a public panic enough to make them rethink that policy?

***** That the Incredimobile was the Government's is ''canon''. In the DVD extras Superhero files, Mr. Incredible's file states that he's too attached to his government-given car.

** Actually we never see superpowered villains in the film. We see the bank robbers (with Tommy Guns), Bomb Voyage, Syndrome and The Underminer. The villains seem to be gimmicky, rather than superpowered. Maybe the Super gene is also a Heroism gene. Mr. Incredible's pathological need to rescue people seems like a chronic obsession.

**** This isn't actually caused by ADHD. Indeed, ADHD is an enormously overdiagnosed condition, and most people who "have ADHD" don't. The overdiagnosis rate for it is that high. And that's ignoring those who self-diagnose.

**** Funny, the condition I see most associated with ADHD is depression. Of course, everyone I know with it was diagnosed as an adult. (It may be over-diagnosed, but that doesn't change the validity of ADHD when it is in fact present.)

 

 

* Other than the fact that the story wouldn't have worked without it and it would ruin the movie. How exactly did Mr Incredible's lawyer manage to lose that case? Suicide is illegal in America, heroes seem to have government mandate to apprehend criminals (and violently). Therefore in saving the jumper Mr Incredible was simply preforming a regular act of heroism, foiling a felony in progress and therefore jumper would have no more claim against him that Bon Voyage would.

** It may not be that he lost the case as such, but that it generated horrible publicity for Mr Incredible and, as the movie put it, opened the door for other suits. Besides, a good portion of that scene was a parody of personal injury lawsuits, where it's not unheard of for people to sue for their own idiocy and win.

***** "In less enlightened times they'd have hanged you for it." -- ''Bedazzled''

***** Suicide is legal only if you succeed: hard to prosecute someone who's dead. However, if you fail, the police ''can'' arrest you to protect your own interests. Very, very few people are ever convicted of suicide-related issues, but police will put you under lock and key and get you counseling.

****** Suicide is legal (it implies success). Attempted suicide is illegal.

******* As others have stated, at least in America laws against suicide have been taken off the books. Hospitals might be required to commit people who attempt, though, and even if they aren't, if they have the ability they probably will (in California, for example, you can be held for up to seventy-two hours if they think you're a danger to yourself or others, and the hold can be extended in extreme circumstances). On top of that, there ''are'' people who believe that a person has the right to die if they want to.

** John Doe lawsuits allow you to sue someone who performed an action without knowing who that person is.

 

* Dash puts a tack on his teacher's chair. If he moved that fast, there would be shockwaves from breaking the sound barrier, and all the windows would be broken.

** Because moving as fast as the blades on your average ceiling fan breaks the sound barrier, of course.

 

 

* Does Jack-Jack have all those powers permanently, or is he going to settle on one or two? If so, when - given that it's clearly not linked to puberty? And is "Jack-Jack Attack" canon?

** Jack-Jack is an homage to all the "omnipotent-WTF-blow-up-half-the-galaxy-with-a-sneeze" heroes. He's the Silver Surfer, the Phoenix, the Sentry, Terrax, Doctor Strange, The Thunderbolt...

*** [[Word of God]] says "Jack-Jack Attack" is canon. And by my count, Jack-Jack's kerwuffle with Syndrone demonstrates ''three'' budding super-powers: (1) shape-shifting, (2) [[Playing with Fire]], and (3) density control.

*** His powers at the end, with enough [[Rules Lawyer|RulesLawyering]], can explain everything in "Jack-Jack Attack". The [[Eye Beams]] and [[Playing with Fire]] can have the same sources, if the former is just a very focused expression of the latter (emitting heat and light). The floating and walking on the ceiling are neutral and negative buoyancy, whereas the Heavy Jack-Jack at the end was a combination of shapeshifting and positive buoyancy. Going through the walls can be explained by many of the things that allow density change, such as if he has the single overall power of being able to change local matter (that is, his body) to energy and back, while affecting the way it is stored or used.

***** Use Vision of Avengers as a more known example. From intangibility to diamond density.

***** Diamond isn't all that dense. It is only carbon, you know. Denser than aluminum, less so than titanium. It's just really frackin' ''hard'', is all.

 

 

* Syndrome invented ''fucking flight boots'' and a glove that taps into the infinite energy of an absolute zero vacuum. (Zero Point Energy) [[Real Life|Physicists estimate that if we could tap into this energy]], [[Cut Lex Luthor a Check|we would never need any kind of fuel again.]] This guy has done, by himself, what quantum physicists can only dream of. Doesn't that count as a superpower?

** Of course it does! Just ask [[Iron Man|Tony Stark]] or [[Batman|Bruce Wayne]]. Of course you have Lex Luther and The Joker, who are super villains and don't have powers, other than high intelligence and wills of steel.

*** Doesn't it carry that second Aesop whether Syndrome has super-intelligence or not? Whether his intelligence is "super" or merely "really smart" is beside the point. Either way, it's still wrong to get obsessed with jealousy and use one's abilities to kill innocent people.

*** Actually, the entire movie has a ''[[Family-Unfriendly Aesop]]'' - namely, that some people really ARE better than others, and that it is wrong to try and force them to be like everyone else.

*** I don't think it's that at all. I think it's that everyone deserves to make use of their talents, even if they are a little unusual. (With the usual caveats about not hurting people and so on; that's why Syndrome is a bad guy.) I mean, how many people with amazing potential are stuck in jobs or lives that don't allow them to show it?

*** Because, you know, everyone is born with the exact same physical and mental abilities and therefore anyone who develops into someone stronger or smarter than other people should be forced to act as if they were just as weak and stupid as everyone else. Mensa? Shut it down! Professional sports? All of those athletes need to stop working out and eat junk food while working at a dead-end desk job. Don't even get me started on the Olympics...

**** The reason we're against Syndrome's plan to sell super tech is because it comes after the part where Syndrome murders his competition and launches a murderous robot on the city. If Syndrome could somehow, you know, not kill people, then he could probably do the world a lot of good.

*** You may think it's a Broken Aesop; many have argued (as you can see above) that it's entirely on purpose. Dash is forced by society to be average even though he's special; Bob complains that the school is congratulating the kids with a "graduation" ceremony for the "mediocre" achievement of passing the fourth grade; ''the villain of the movie wants to make everyone special''. [http://www.avclub.com/articles/brad-bird-fauxpopulist,14766/ The AV Club has also noted] that Brad Bird's other Pixar movie, [[Ratatouille]], is about how Linguini will never be as good a chef as Remy no matter how hard he works, even though the metaphoric moral is "anyone can cook"; thus, his message as a general artist becomes not that everyone has talent, but that, per Ratatouille, you must be open-minded enough to look for natural, better talents in unexpected places (ie. a rat who can cook), and per The Incredibles, allow said talents to blossom even if it hurts other people's feelings.

*** With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility. The Aesop of the movie (or one of the Aesops, anyway) is that if you can do something really well, you have a duty to do it really well to help people. Failure to do so results in Bad Stuff(tm). Incrediboy doesn't care about helping people, he just wants the prestige and power that comes with being a hero. Mr. Incredible rejects him, not just because he's dangerous, but because he doesn't get the point that helping people should be it's own reward (which, ironically, Bob himself doesn't get at that point). Heroes should be selfless, not selfish, and failure to do so results in a God complex similar to what Syndrome eventually embodies.

*** On top of that, there are huge ethical problems with what Syndrome is doing that have nothing to do with his plan to spread supertech to the masses. Firstly, he killed ''real'' heroes- people who had actually risked their lives for the public good- to test his deadly giant robot. Secondly, he then launched that giant robot to what appears to be New York City to go on a destructive rampage. Thirdly, he then planned to effectively commit a massive fraud by stopping the giant robot ''he'' created, as a way of showing off how awesome he was to an adoring public... all because he resented being upstaged by Mr. Incredible fifteen years ago. So Syndrome is definitely the bad guy based on his ''actions'', regardless of whether he has superpowers or not. What he's doing is well beyond the [[Moral Event Horizon]], at least in the context of a Disney movie.

 

 

* Why ''can't'' Dash play sports? There are plenty of sports (Hockey, Basketball, Soccer, etc.) that emphasize skill and precision over raw speed. Why did they stick him in Track, the one sport where he really couldn't learn anything?

** I might be misremembering, but didn't he want to try out for Track specifically? Either way, I don't think it'd make much of a difference. Dash is a show-off and he'd find some way to use his speedster powers in just about anything. He was using them to prank the teacher, for Pete's sake.

 

 

* Ok, (minor and kinda nitpicky, but hey, it bugs me) what really bugs this troper is why so many people think he came in second. Dash came in First! Hell, its seems pretty clear to me he came in first, he broke the freaking tape! His parents weren't yelling for him to lose or come in second, they wanted him to win, but to make it a close win. (Listen to Bobs yells during the race. That's exactly what he says: "Make is close!")

** Actually, Bob and Helen are both yelling, "Close second! Close second!" Both heard by this troper, and confirmed in the closed captioning. And just afterward, he's carrying a silver trophy with a "2" on it. So...yeah.

** Look at the scene where Dash and Helen discuss this in the car. Helen's problem is that Dash is "an incredibly competitive boy", because of this, he would mis-use his powers to show that he is 'the best'. Dash tries unconvincingly to tell her that he would "only be the best by a tiny bit". At the end of the movie when we see him at the track, he's learned that winning isn't everything, and so he doesn't run at super speed.

 

** My best guess is that Mirage didn't know if Syndrome would still need her services after Mr Incredible's death. She was looking out for her own job security by helping Mr I survive the first fight.

** Or maybe one of the things Syndrome wants it to learn is how to deal with superheroes who know about its learning abilities.

 

 

* There doesn't seem to be any consequences of Dash KILLING people. I know he's pretty much forced into it, but he's ten. I'm reminded of that Clooney/Kidman film where Kidman has a nervous breakdown after trained good-guy soldiers, who knew the risk, died.

** Dash is supremely arrogant and everyone who died was trying to murder him at the time. Nicole Kidman's character in ''[[The Peacemaker]]'' was a bureaucrat who was in over her head, and she actually * ordered* those soldiers to their deaths. If they ever make a sequel, Dash might get [[Wangst]] about it, but it made sense in the context of his character as shown.

** The "Superheroes Shall Not Kill" rule seems to be very relaxed in this universe compared to Marvel or DC. If Kid Flash ever killed somebody even accidentally, the entire DC universe would be freaking the hell out over it.

**** Honestly hard to say. The stuff I've seen in headscratchers and all across the wiki turns it into a Poe. Some people just honestly won't be satisfied until every [[Ron the Death Eater|hero is the villain]] and [[Draco in Leather Pants|vice versa]].

 

* After Syndrome captured the Incredibles, why didn't he kill them? He'd proved he was willing to before, and Mr. Incredible had already escaped from the harness once. (He didn't know that Mirage helped, but he would know that Mr. Incredible escaped once before.) True, Syndrome might have been in a hurry to get to the city for the Omnidroid fight, but there's no reason he couldn't tell his minions to kill them, or have some sort of countermeasure if they tried to escaped.

** Syndrome, at one point, acknowledges that he is capable of falling into the cliched villain role...

** As noted above, he's still a supervillain. He's leaving Mr. Incredible alive, so he can witness Syndrome taking his place as a beloved hero. Probably figured Mr. Incredible's family would find it just as sickening, so all the better to appeal to Syndrome's sadism. He probably would have tossed them all into the volcano when he got back.

 

* How do they get the masks to stick to their faces?

** Spirit Gum. It's a glue safe for skin while lasting for hours. That's how Nightwing keeps it on.

 

 

* "Here, take these masks which don't really conceal anything save for a few inches of skin around your eyes but not your actual eyes themselves or really any distinguishing features. Nobody will know it's you." Seriously, what?

** Why does no one ever recognise Clark Kent without his glasses? There's your answer. Or, less facetiously, a lot of recognition is based in/around the eyes. And I think one purpose of the costumes being so bright and noticeable is that you'll look at and remember them, rather than the heroes' faces. It sure seems to work for Robin.

**** Even masks aren't enough. Some people with poor eyesight rely more on body shapes and movement patterns. I also remember reading about a case where the suspects walk was distinctive enough to connect him to the crime despite his face not being recognisable on cctv.

**** This is the age of Photoshop. Five minutes with the clone brush would remove the masks.

*** In fact, the movie is set in the 1960s.

**** Actually most of the movie takes place circa 1985.

**** Where are you getting 1985 from? The first part of the movie is set during the 50's (listen to the dates Edna gives during the capes monologue), and the bulk of the plot is 15 years later. So mid-60's to mid-70's.

***** A mid-60s to mid-70s where office workers have cubicles and personal computers, of course.

 

 

* So when Frozone freezes that one police officer, how is it all the others bust in there and don't notice the frozen guy until they turn around? He didn't seem that far from the door, and they would have had to walk past him to turn around and see him. Also, does not freezing people, y'know, kill them? Is Frozone okay with that, or does he have magic ice?

** He didn't freeze the officer solid, he covered him in ice. If the other cops broke it off quickly, he might have a mild burn at worst.

 

 

* I always filed this under [[Parental Bonus]], but nobody seems to discuss this secondary issue. Helen thinks Bob is having an affair! She finds hair that is not her's on Bob's supersuit. She overhears her husband talking with some woman on the phone about seeing her soon. Is Bob suddenly working out to be more attractive to this other woman? Helen nervously tells Bob that she loves him, as a self-denying way to convince him to leave this other woman. He's obviously confused, so this is obviously not a daily occurrence. She walks in on Bob who is face-to-face with a woman at extremely close range, locked in a kiss as far as Helen knows. Mirage is flustered and acting guilty, so Helen punches her. Am I the only one seeing this?

** No. It's just that the discussion of the affair is pushed to the back in favour of discussing ubermenchen and whether or not Syndrome is a good guy for wanting to spread superpowers to everyone even if the price is endangerment by a self-aggrandizing egomaniac, the deaths of numerous innocent people whose good intentions he preyed upon. and no doubt high costs to spread the love, and how the supers are a bunch of stuck up assholes because they look down on people who put themselves into needless danger without training or the ability to withstand deadly attack, all while the supers themselves are having a hectic day.

** To someone who's got an adult's understanding of the situation, Helen is mad because she thinks Bob might be having an affair. From a kid's point of view, she's mad because she thinks Bob might be lying to her and going off and doing fun stuff with friends she doesn't know, basically.

 

* I know this isn't a plot-related IJBM or anything, but why did Pixar design Violet to be so freaking skinny? She's practically a twig! I do realize that she's a teenager and this is a cartoon so all the characters are heavily stylized, but couldn't they have least made her healthy-looking and not a mascot for anorexia?

** If you're dumb enough to model your body image after a cartoon character, you deserve whatever disorder you get.

 

 

* Mr. Incredible has Mirage in his grasp after he thinks his family is dead. He threatens to kill her, but doesn't because he "values life." Fast forward a bit: Mirage is FREEING HIM, and he about strangles her to death. Did I miss something?

** If you thought your whole family was murdered, you'd want to strangle someone too.

 

 

* Why, in ''Jack-Jack Attack,'' doesn't Jack-Jack set off the sprinkler system? The self-destructing message set it off, but a ''flaming baby'' doesn't? What?

** The may have left it off after the message incident, especially depending on what excuse Bob came up with.

** Well, the babysitter had turned into a sort of super-sitter by that point, maybe she insisted on starting to clean things up and Syndrome did it all with his tech just to get her out of there faster.

 

* Mirage is a top investigator, and found out Mr. Incredible civil identity. She reports to Syndrome, so you suppose he knows everything ''relevant'' on him. Now, how did he missed that he is married with (ex) Elastic Girl? I accept that mini-masks can cheat mundane people, but Mirage should have recognized her. So, Mirage carried an idiot ball for a while, or she opted to ''not'' insert that bit in her report? Or Syndrome reads only the titles, maybe. "Mr. Incredible works in that town and is married with ENOUGH! GO WITH THE PLAN!"

** Mirage only found Mr. Incredible by following Frozone, and seemed only interested in him. There's no indication she ever found out about Elastigirl having married him, or even that she was familiar with Elastigirl at all (remember, when Bob checks the Kronos files, Elastigirl's location is listed as "unknown"); it's possible when Syndrome sends her out, she's only given info on the Super she's tailing; she recognized Mr. Incredible because Syndrome is obsessed with him, and probably couldn't hide it. Her investigation may not have gotten further than, "Follow Frozone until he drops Bob off, then slip the package into the mail."

** She didn't actually recognize Mr. Incredible until they saved the people from the fire. While they (Frozone and Incredible) are in the car, she just refers to him as 'the fat one', but after the scene, she says 'we found him' hinting that Syndrome has been looking for Mr. Incredible his whole life. At any case, once they've found their main target, why even worry about his personal life?

 

* On one of the DVD extras, there's this one casanova-type superhero named Gamma Jack, who is described as being a megalomaniac who believes that supers are a "surperior race". While Bob looks through Syndrome's computer, Gamma Jack was shown to have been killed by one of the omnidroids. And if you think about it, most supers probably were complete and utter bigots. Did you ever once think they might have deserved what they got?

** Syndrome also had no reason to use the plan outlined above. He had at least four other options: He could have become a ''real'' superhero, and openly used his supertech to fight crime. He could have invented better body armor for cops, or better hospital equipment, or some new fuel source. He could have just showed up at Mr. Incredible's door, and kicked his ass. Or, he could have done all of the above. While doing heroic acts simply to get even with a retired superhero is hardly moral, it's better than, you know, killing people.

** Don't forget, the superheroes never ran things. Before, they were taking orders from the government. Now they're retired, and have no influence at all. What does killing them serve?

 

 

* Really bugs me, why did the family have to live in that city? One of the early problems they were having was Dash not having a constructive way to let off steam. Now, I don't know about anywhere else, but at least in my area you could get a couple hundred acres for as much as the Parr's house probably cost, and still be within a twenty minute drive to work of all kinds. Or, better yet, build a job off your property (try to tell me Bob couldn't make dough part-time off selling firewood). That would have at least given Dash the space he needed to run off his energy, and with a little ingenuity they could have made it constructive. I know, it goes against the aesop, but I never understood why they didn't seem to consider that route.

** Pffffahahahahaha! If you think you can get a couple hundred, or even ONE hundred, acres of land with the money it takes to get a nice house in a suburban place-hoo boy, you've clearly never had experience with retail! The old farms and ranches and such out here, or even just plain bare land that isn't connected to water or electricity or anything yet, goes for several million, and that's in the middle of a drought where wells are drying up and fires start at the drop of a hat. You can't get a couple hundred acres for what a small house and yard cost.

** If we assume Helen is completely elastic, then she would act like clay. One surface that could be molded in any which way. So for instance her arm pit is only an armpit because she's holding that shape. What this means is that as long as she's trying to duplicate an object with single contiguous surface, she's good.

 

* Mirage tells Mr. Incredible to NOT destroy the Omnidroid part 1, and what does he do? He has it beat itself to death, tearing gaping holes in its hull, and eventually ripping out its energy source, which very possibly might've been connected with fiddly little wires that might be expensive to replace...

** "Don't destroy it" was a secondary objective, for Mr. Incredible to do if he could. The primary objective was "Stop the damn thing," which took priority. If he could do so without completely destroying it, fine, if not, well at least it's stopped rampaging around the island.

** Then there's the fact that Mirage wouldn't be trying to make Mr. Incredible go all-out on the thing, which in turn makes it easier for the Omnidroid to take him down.

 

* Edna's super suit models in general... she mentions at one point that Jack Jack's suit is bullet proof, and proves it by shooting the suit, but the dummy beneath takes no obvious damage... so, how do we know the suit is bulletproof? Also, Edna has a model that can be twisted to any shape, just like Elastigirl... If Edna can make bulletproof suits, why didn't she just incorporate that into ALL the suits she made? As evidenced by the supers we meet in the movie proper, none of THEM are bulletproof...

** All the suits are bullet proof for the same reason that an airplane isn't made out of the same material of the black box: When engineering something, there are trade-offs that have to be made in turns of cost, weight, size, and flexibility for a skin-tight suit. IT might very well be impossible to cram all that cool stuff into a suit without making it unwieldy.

** I'm pretty sure the bullets are being ''deflected''. Also, if what Edna says is true, then the suit is what is deflecting the bullets. In that case, the mannequin would have no damage on it.

 

 

* Also, two things: How did Gazerbeam find out about 'Kronos' being a password? And what made Bob know to look where Gazerbeam's skull was facing? As he decayed, shouldn't the eyeline have fallen, if nothing else?

** 1) How Gazerbeam found out about the password could be an entire adventure unto itself. He was a Super, after all. 2) Gazerbeam shoots lasers out of his eyes. If I found him dead, I would sure as hell want to know what he was looking at when he died. 3) Don't believe Hollywood; people don't always slump over when they die.

 

 

* The whole. "Everyone's special" "That just means that nobody is special" conversation creeps me out. The moral here seems to be that some people are more special or interesting because of their abillities. Why not say that everyone IS special but uniquely so, and everyone is interesting. As a non-american it bothers me that some people should be thought MORE special or interesting just because of an abillity or fame, money etc. They may garner more immediate attention, but shouldn't be thought of as better. there is a difference between attention and interest out of a wish to see something new and a genuine human inerest.

*** While I agree with the general idea that Syndrome was evil for trying to cheapen people's talents, I should point out that having more than one prodigy in any particular field doesn't necessarily cheapen the value of that talent. Also, even if someone developed a cheap drug that, for example, could turn everyone into a great athlete tomorrow, some would still be at least marginally better than others (the guy who can dash 100 meters in 5 seconds instead of the 6 it takes everyone else), and would rise to the top of their field in competitive sports; we would still have the best of the best to compete in the Olympics. The true evil in Syndrome's motive is that he believed (albeit falsely) he could tear down the greater talents by equalizing everyone.

** Agreed. I always thought that the "if everybody's special, nobody is" argument was a load of crap. I've heard several people say it in real life, and in my opinion they've all either been full of it or completely clueless. That said, Dash is ''eight years old'' and clearly speaking out of frustration. I'm not going to hold it against him. (Now, Syndrome, on the other hand...)

** Maybe there's a trope for this… It seems like part of the problem here is the difficulty of disentangling a villain's goals from his methods. For example, many people are going to interpret a movie whose villain is an eco-terrorist as being at least somewhat against environmentalism, not just against terrorism. (Or to put that more nicely, as a warning against "excessive" environmentalism, rather than an Aesop totally unrelated to ecology.) For what it's worth, here's Syndrome's speech: ''And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so that everyone can be superheroes. Everyone can be super. And when everyone's super… no one will be. [laughs evilly].'' This troper, for one, couldn't help but see a troubling Aesop: that not only would it be bad for everyone to be "super", but the ''reason'' this would be bad is that "super" would no longer be '''elite'''. (Rather than because such a world would be chaotic or whatever). It seems to be saying that the important thing is not only to recognize/celebrate that some people have talents that others don't (which I'm fine with), but to accept and even celebrate a one-way ''hierarchy'' of talents. Not only does a desirable world have pianists who are better than others, but ''people'' who are plain "better" than others. (In any case, the "worthlessness by commonness" problem doesn't really seem apply to the Incredibles universe, because of diversity. Few other supers, if any, are fast like Dash or flexible like Helen, etc, so there's no sense in which the prevalence of superpowers diminishes their ''comparative'' value either. In a world where everyone was super… everyone would be super. ''Even if'' "super" is valued relative to other people.)

*** I agree with this point, but I think there's another analogy the writers might have been trying to make. It's not so much that people aren't allowed to excel equally, but that Syndrome's technology lets them do so with no innate talent of their own. It's like the story of John Henry versus the digging machine, or the worries about how steroids and performance enhancing drugs are ruining pro sports, or (especially ironic) traditional animators and effects artists getting pushed out by CGI effects. A whole category of natural talent is rendered invisible and meaningless if anyone can just go to the store, buy the right product and get something similar. On the one hand, the Supers were born with their powers, so it's not really fair that they're better anyway, but people are also born as creative geniuses or incredible athletes, so the metaphor's still there. Syndrome's deliberately trying to diminish the human spirit and create a world where no Super will ever get to be recognized for his talent. He's turned progress right on its head, trying to accomplish on purpose what most inventors would consider an unfortunate side effect. His basic plan isn't exactly evil: his devices really could do a whole lot of good. But his motives are entirely evil. It never even occurs to him to make those arguments, because they have nothing to do with his goals. It's like someone inventing nuclear power just to bring about a nuclear war; the problem isn't with the technology itself, just with how absolutely warped the person must be to even think that way.

*** I always thought of these two statement being that out heros and villain are [[Not So Different]]. Think about it, in the end, both are still human.

*** This. Here's how I see this. Remember in ''[[Lion King]]'' when Simba sings ''I Just Can't Wait To Be King'' about how he'll do whatever he wants to? Then later, Scar ''does'' that and outright says "I'm the king, I can do whatever I want", and it ends ''horribly'' for all involved. Well this is the same. Dash starts out with the same frame of mind about it as Syndrome does, that if everyone is supposedly "special" no one is. Both see it as bad for supers, the difference being Syndrome ''wants'' it to happen and Dash doesn't. And the point is likely a subtle way of showing that Syndrome is very childish inside and has a very limited world view like Dash. At the end, Dash clearly understands that he can run and "be special" while still hiding his super nature and that he no longer has that view. Syndrome clearly still had this world view as a child, when he mentions that you don't need real powers to be super, implying he saw people with super powers as no different than him, which to some degree is true, but he of course didn't realize their minds were different and they were super because of how they used their powers. Dash and Buddy are simular in many ways in that both wanted to use their own natural talent and believed they were special to some degree, but Dash learned how to show his natural talen in a good way while Buddy used his in a bad one.

 

Another thing to mention is that it wasn't the fact Syndrome was using tech he made to be a hero, in the flashbacks we're shown Dyna Guy, who used rocket gauntlets to fly. Thus tech based heroes aren't entirely unknown. Bob never told Buddy that "I don't want you with me because you're not a super", ''Buddy'' said that. The matter of whether or not you're a hero depending on powers was all in his head. He ''could've been'' a real Super, but he didn't see it that way and tried to kill off real supers and orchestrate a massive lie to pretend to be one despite that fact. Ultimately the only thing stopping Buddy from being a real Super was him.

** Speaking as the very person who started all that mishegas... No, it's not because the movie was successful. If anything, I think people are more inclined to defend it, rightly or wrongly, due to its success. I saw it in the theater, have the special edition DVD, watched the special features and the DVD commentary and even the synchro-Vox Mr. Incredible cartoon; if anything I'm one of the original fans, though I haven't been reading the comics by BOOM! Studios. But I ''have'' read all the things that I purported the movie "ripped off" (and I admit that that was perhaps a poor choice of words) - and "shares a few parallels" doesn't begin to cover it. Now, maybe this is just me being nervous because as a writer I myself deal heavily in [[Shout-Out|Shout Outs]] and [[Captain Ersatz]] and trying to establish clearly what is and what isn't plagiarism, but the clear similarities are striking. I've also been told that the reason Brad Bird never came out and mentioned any specific inspiration was due to the Pixar legal team advising against it. Let me ask you: if it's not plagiarism, ''why would the lawyers insist he not say anything''? Usually they don't do that unless you've done something wrong! Hopefully, they were simply erring on the side of caution. I know this sounds accusatory, but I'd just like to close the issue and move on - I don't hate the movie, this has just been something that's bothered me about it quite a bit for a while.

** Perhaps a better way of saying it would be "paying homage with great detail and faithfulness to the original work".

 

 

* Who is Frozone's wife? Is she the "super mega ultra lightning babe" he was talking about in the opening scene?

** It's not said. I thought the ultra lightning babe thing was just flourish, I don't think he was referencing anyone specific.

*** I don't think Frozone was saying he was only interested in Super women. He seemed more to be saying he wasn't interested in their real identity and the ''commitment'' that would come with knowing it. It's still ironic (he wanted no-commitment, no-strings-attached, he ended up getting hitched), but in a different way.

** She is the greatest good Frozone's ever gonna get. Nuff said.

 

* When the Incredible family escapes from the energy field cage thing, they run to the hangar bay to find a way to get to the city to stop the Omnidroid. They can't find a jet, but that doesn't matter because one of them says a jet is too slow. They take a rocket and arrive shortly after Syndrome has been knocked out. The problem is, that Syndrome had left just a few minutes before them ON A JET! This could be easily dismissed as he [[Took a Shortcut]] but it was emphasized that a jet was too slow after they escaped their captivity within minutes of Syndrome leaving the island.

** Different jets have different speeds, maybe Syndrome's yet has afterburners.

 

 

* Syndrome has a very light complexion. So why does he live on a tropical island? It's bound to get hot, and people with light complexions get sunburned easily. He'd either have to almost never go outside of his hideout, wear excessive amounts of sunblock, or only go outside for short periods of time. Otherwise, a certain supervillain is going to end up looking like a lobster.

** He probably just doesn't go outside. No real reason for him to do so. He can spend all his time inventing stuff and playing with his toys.

** Ah, well maybe I'm just speaking from experience with my fair-skinned younger sister. She burns very quickly and very easily even when she wears sunblock. I guess it just varies on the person, but nonetheless if I had fair skin a tropical island wouldn't be my first choice of a place to live.

*** I'll add that, as someone with pale skin who burns very easily, I get the heebie jeebies just thinking about it. But as said, Syndrome's probably working in his lab all the time anyway, so they could have been in the arctic for all he cared - he just wanted the most isolated private island he could find that'd meet their needs. And a tropical island does at least offer plenty of shade and cloud cover if he feels like spending a day on the beach.

 

 

* Why doesn't Mirage end up in jail? Okay she helped the Incredibles escape but she ''was'' a willing accomplice to dozens of murders (the supers she lured to Syndrome's island.) Did none of the dead supers have surviving relatives who might have wanted to see her do time?

** Setting aside that characters who make a [[Heel Face Turn]] usually get away with whatever they were guilty of before, she did help the Parrs save the city. Besides, we don't have any information about what happens to her, for all we know she's a hunted fugitive. One hopes she wouldn't get a codename as cool as Mirage without being somewhat successful at covert operations.

** Besides, she's silver-tongued and suave enough to get them to set her up as a [[Boxed Crook]] or something, especially given, as his [[Dragon]], she probably has top-level access to ''everything'' he makes. Furthermore, Syndrome trusts her to lure the supers to his trap in the first place, which implies some not-insignificant level of social skills and covert-ops training. In fact it's established that she can blend in with the crowd (notice how nobody notices the [[Darkskinned Blonde]] who wasn't there yesterday manning the coffee machine when Bob goes to Huph's office) and she's a good enough actress to fool Gazerbeam, who was if not a lawyer/someone in government (as per the article detailing his disappearance), then at least a civilian lobbyist.

 

 

 

* Why was Gazorbeam wearing his costume at the wedding?

** Came straight from a crime scene, like Bob?

 

* I cannot think of any excuse Mr. Incredible could have given that would have explained the self-destruct message, especially considering they had to have spent hours cleaning up. Or maybe Helen is just really forgiving, I don't know.

** The family never learns about the message, he discovers it in the trash when he dumps out his briefcase. I guess he might have lied and said he was fiddling with some souvenir from his hero days which blew up on him.

 

 

 

* Just where WAS his super-suit?

** Where he won't be running off with it to do some derring-do, of course.

*** [http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=AUxZRS-8Ir8 Upon rewatch], the missiles hit right over the wings. The piece that hits the water was almost intact all the way around (and looks like the fore section) and could not have been kicked straight up by that hit. Just a goof, I guess.

 

[[Category:Pixar/Headscratchers]]