A Song of Ice and Fire/YMMV: Difference between revisions

* [[Alternative Character Interpretation]]: Due to the complexity of the series' characters, many fall victim to this.

* [[Angst Aversion]]: Many are hesitant to read the novels for the first time, because of the sheer hell the author puts the protagonist Stark children through.

* [[Anvilicious]]: The notion that the Middle Ages were a romantic time of heroism and chivalry is complete BS. War is ''always'' hell, even (and ''especially'') when it's waged by knights in shining armor. And when noble lords wage power struggles, the common people get shafted in the end no matter who wins. As cool as dragons and wizards may be, everyday life in a [[J. R. R. Tolkien|Tolkien-esque]] fantasy world would be hell for most people. This trope applies, however, because sometimes Martin goes overboard- for instance, in [[Real Life]] if the nobility of the Middle Ages tried to treat their peasantry half as bad as some of the Houses of Westeros did, the economy would have collapsed and the Houses would have been very poor- and very dead- very quickly. Also, most Middle Age battles were not actually as brutal (or as epic) as they are portrayed- most of them were skirmishes and ended before they had a chance to get that far, because commanders and soldiers at the time were too [[Genre Savvy]] to ''let'' them get that far and achieve nothing but scores of dead soldiers. Only a handful ever really reached that level of violence and scale.

* [[Broken Base]]: The fanbase was actually a pretty contented one up until the publication of ''A Feast For Crows''. With ''A Dance With Dragons'' finally out, the new broken base seems to divide between fans who love it and consider it a return to form, and those who hate it and consider it AFFC 2.0. And then there are those who loved AFFC and don't consider the idea of AFFC 2.0 to be a bad thing. The split in the fanbase seems to be a result of the increased focus on world building in AFFC and ADWD. Westeros and Essos are presented in more detail than ever before, but parts of the fanbase consider this to have occurred at the expense of plot.

* [[Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy]]: For some readers. While at the beginning it was a [[Darker and Edgier|harsh and brutal]] (if equally unrealistic) representation of [[Deconstruction|the Medieval Fantasy setting]], with each book the brutality, sadism and plain revolting grimness of the world of Westeros can cause this feeling. While the first instance of [[If You're So Evil Eat This Kitten|"Villain wins, innocents are raped/mutilated/devoured"]] is shocking and horrific, the five hundred million-and-first scene no longer has the impact it wishes to have. Killing off audience-favourite heroes with little warning or fanfare is a particular trigger, although that doesn't happen as often as you might be led to believe.

** Possibly even crueler in that we DO get the occasional cathartic moment of pure awesome (Jaime {{spoiler|rescuing Brienne from the bear pit}} springs to mind) - just enough that we can't be *sure* that the worst thing *will* definitely happen, and keep getting our hopes up, only to have them (mostly) crushed.

** Prince Oberyn Martell also manages this, {{spoiler|despite the fact that he ''dies'' in the same book he's introduced.}}

** Asha Greyjoy, partially due to her [[Action Girl]] appeal.

** Wyman Manderly earned this status in [[Best Served Cold|grand]] [[I Am a Humanitarian|style]] in A Dance with Dragons.

** Hodor Hodor Hodor.

** Podrick Payne gets a lot for his [[Undying Loyalty]] to Tyrion Lannister and his [[Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass]] moments:

** Garlan Tyrell, simply because he's a badass knight ''and'' a decent person. He's nice to Tyrion and does a minor case of calling Joffrey out on his behavior.

** Edmure Tully, for being a generally nice chap. Yes, he screwed up, but he wasn't told that the Northern plans depended on him ''not'' stopping the Lannisters. His commanders' contempt for him cost them a great victory. [[Laser-Guided Karma]] much?

* [[Epileptic Trees]]: The various mysteries surrounding Robert's Rebellion, the Tower of Joy, Jon Snow's parentage, and Prince Rhaegar. The Others are one big Epileptic Tree.

* [[Evil Is Cool]]: A good deal of fans love Littlefinger, despite his role in making things worse.

* [[Fan Nickname]]: {{spoiler|Un-Cat, Gregorstein/Qyborg/Franken-Gregor}}. The "Tower of Joy" is generally treated like a proper name to a tower and an incident there, though the phrase comes from an offhand description.

* [[Genius Bonus]]: At one point in ''A Dance With Dragons'', Stannis's army is marching to rescue {{spoiler|the supposed Arya Stark}}. One of the knights asks if all of the trouble is worth it for a woman; this is a reference to [[The Iliad]]. In and of itself, this would be a stretch--except that GRRM specifically mentions that the knight who responds to this comment is nicknamed "Middle Liddle." [[Don't Explain the Joke|As any classicist could tell you, "Middle Liddell" is the name of one of the most commonly-used Greek lexicons]].

** {{spoiler|Sandor Clegane, though he's been hiding for a long time. Davos Seaworth was hiding, but he's back now.}}

** Possibly {{spoiler|Syrio Forel}}. Although as a [[Mauve Shirt|minor character]], he's unlikely to reappear as there is no single hint of his survival in the next three books.

** A Dance with Dragons spoiler: {{spoiler|Aegon Targaryen, literally.}}

* [[Hilarious in Hindsight]]: A little meta, but the November 15th, 2009 Podcast of Ice and Fire contains an off-the-cuff joke about ''[[Duke Nukem Forever]]'' coming out before ''A Dance with Dragons'' would, at a time when ''DNF'' was officially cancelled. Sure enough, ''Duke Nukem Forever'' came out exactly 4 weeks before ''Dance''.

** Cersei and Taena Merryweather have rolled in the hay a few times, though Cersei isn't really that into it.

** {{spoiler|Jon Connington felt more than the bonds of friendship toward Rhaegar Targaryen.}}

** Ready your [[Brain Bleach]], comrades - Tyrion/Mord

'''Tyrion:''' I could use a big man like you. }}

** Jon and Satin. Jon's nice to Satin where the other Watchmen are rude, he remarks on his good looks frequently in his P.O.V. chapters, and {{spoiler|when Jon is made Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he makes Satin his steward, a position demonstrated in Jon's storyline to be a fairly significant one, and one that lends itself to close contact between the two parties}}, not to mention that Satin was a prostitute (implied to have worked mostly for men) before he came to the Wall.

** Stannis and Davos are another pair that give off this vibe -- Stannis is cold to nearly everyone, including his wife, but freely admits to missing Davos {{spoiler|when Davos is lost at sea after the Battle of the Blackwater}}, laughs and smiles in his presence though the maester who raised him says Stannis "never learned how to laugh", and honours Davos constantly despite the latter's common birth and the complaints of his other lords bannermen; Davos is completely devoted to Stannis to the point where he won't even criticise him for cutting his fingertips off, does Stannis' bidding even when he disagrees, and has called Stannis his god.

** Catelyn Stark accusing Tyrion of trying to {{spoiler|murder her son with an assassin.}} Grief-stricken or not, would {{spoiler|he really give someone his own personal dagger to do the deed if it could be traced back to him?}}

** She then started balancing the idiot ball on her nose: {{spoiler|Giving Lord Tywin his beloved son back was moronic, to say the least.}}

* [[It Was His Sled]]: The deaths of {{spoiler|Eddard and Robert}}.

* [[Iron Woobie]]: Arya and Brienne.

** Arya. She's mentally unstable but due to all that's happened, can you really blame her?

** As of ''A Dance with Dragons'', {{spoiler|Theon}} is now officially the biggest [[Jerkass Woobie]] in the history of [[Jerkass Woobie|Jerkass Woobies]]. Although {{spoiler|by the end of the book he's not all that much of a [[Jerkass]] anymore}}.

* [[Les Yay]]: Cersei with Taena Merryweather, Daenerys with her handmaidens, Margaery Tyrell with Sansa.

** Conversely, GRRM seems to take demonic pleasure in averting these wherever he can. For crying out loud, he has {{spoiler|an Inigo Montoya homage}} where {{spoiler|Inigo Montoya LOSES.}}

** Tyrion Lannister, Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish, Varys, Tywin Lannister, and Roose Bolton all qualify.

** Olenna Tyrell, she helped assassinate Joffrey and absolutely no one has any idea she was involved. She's also the brains behind House Tyrell.

** As of book five, Wyman Manderly almost certainly qualifies.

** [[Bastard Understudy]]: Sansa Stark, who could shape up into the above trope if Littlefinger has taught her right. Similarly, Margaery Tyrell to Olenna.

** Jaime Lannister is known within the world as one of, if not the best, swordsmen around. The 2010 suvudu.com "cage matches" between fictional characters drew a large contingent of supporters for Jaime, who bested [[Harry Potter (novel)|Hermione Granger]] and Cthulhu, among others, before facing off against ''[[The Wheel of Time]]'''s [[Crystal Dragon Jesus]], [[The Chosen One|Rand al'Thor]]. Martin wrote short descriptions of how he thought Jaime would win, which usually relied on Tyrion providing him a gameplan.

** Wyman Manderly has attained this status (with praises that sound almost Chuck Norris-esque, e.g. {{spoiler|"Lord Manderly is a vegetarian. Meaning, he does not eat Freys until first he puts them into vegetative state with his fists."). His earned badassery comes from the fact that ''everyone'' underestimated the fat jolly man, and that he had the audacity to feed [[I'm a Humanitarian|Frey pies]] to people like ''[[Complete Monster|Ramsay Bolton]]'' without them even ''suspecting'', and even having the bard sing "Rat Cook" right to their faces without them realizing anything, and finally ''surviving his throat being cut''.}}

* [[Memetic Mutation]]: "Oh sweet child of summer". Typically used by those who have read all the books to tease newcomers about how much worse things get.

* [[Moral Event Horizon]]: A number of characters have crossed the boundary from grey to black morality:

** Theon Greyjoy has perhaps the most notable one. Starting as something of a [[Jerkass]] with a downtrodden history that made him sympathetic, Theon crosses the line in a shocking way when he {{spoiler|leads an Ironman invasion of his former home, Winterfell, and kills several people he grew up with. His most heinous deed is when he murders the miller's two young boys, (the younger one possibly his own son) and spiked their tarred heads to his gate to cover up the escape of Bran and Rickon Stark.}} And then ''A Dance with Dragons'', using some of the best writing in the series, {{spoiler|manages to bring him firmly back into the sympathetic category again because of the horrific tortures he receives from his captors}}.

** The Red Wedding caused two characters to cross the line, namely {{spoiler|Roose Bolton and Walder Frey. The former slaughtered his fellow Northmen only out of opportunism and personally killed Robb Stark. The latter orchestrated the massacre out of spite and laughed while it happened. However, the mastermind behind the Red Wedding was Tywin Lannister, but he had ''already'' crossed the [[Moral Event Horizon]]}}.

** Also, [[Fan Dumb|many fans refuse to forgive Sansa]] for her personality and actions in the first book, ignoring her development over the course of the next few books or even saying it can never excuse her past mistakes.

* [[Nightmare Fuel]]: Many, many instances; has [[A Song of Ice and Fire/Nightmare Fuel|its own page]].

** Ramsay Bolton's very...''fond'' of his Reek. This only makes being Reek even more terrifying, if that's even ''possible.''

** Also, in early books, Littlefinger's stroking Sansa's face, commenting on her attractiveness, saying he understands Joffrey wanting the "sweet prize" of her body, squicked out many fans. {{spoiler|After book three, he's too obvious about his attraction to her for it to count as subtext, but, now that he's her [[Creepy Uncle|uncle]] and [[Parental Incest|adoptive father]], it's even creepier.}}

* [[Puppy Love]]: Arya/Gendry, Bran/Meera, and Bran/Daenerys (who, it should be noted, have never met each other).

* [[Real Women Never Wear Dresses]]: A good part of the Sansa hate comes more from her girliness than anything else. Some fans have warmed up to her somewhat as she acquires [[Jade-Colored Glasses]].

** As Sansa begins to accept that the world isn't a fairy tale, she starts to get more respect from the fandom.

** As of ''A Dance with Dragons'', Theon Greyjoy.

* [[The Scrappy]]: A few examples, with a cast so large. Some are due to characters having intentional flaws, while others are simply disliked as characters.

** Darkstar, introduced in ''A Feast for Crows''. Martin admitted that he wanted to recapture some of the aspects that fans liked about Oberyn Martell, the Red Viper of Dorne, but some fans rejected this minor character's overt attempts at [[Evil Is Cool]].

** People are deeply divided on the subject of Catelyn, but she's one of the most disliked of the main characters among the fandom due to her poor treatment of Jon and her rash behavior.

** Arianne's chapters are disliked by some segments of the fandom mainly because {{spoiler|her plot led nowhere.}} However these chapters actually {{spoiler|reveal important setup for House Martell's plans for Dany.}} So your mileage really may vary on this one.

* [[Tear Jerker]]: Many, many examples. Has [[A Song of Ice and Fire/Tear Jerker|its own page]].

* [[Too Cool to Live]]: {{spoiler|Syrio Forel}}, so much. {{spoiler|Oberyn Martell}} too.

** {{spoiler|Oberyn Martell}} for trying to give a [["The Reason You Suck" Speech]] [[Reality Ensues|in the middle of combat]].

** Sansa Stark to a lesser degree, if only because she manages to stay alive, but her naivety costs the life of several people, {{spoiler|including her father, Eddard, by unintentionally aiding the queen's plot against him.}}

** {{spoiler|Cersei}}, for beggaring the realm and driving away any possible allies that might be able to help.

** {{spoiler|The Good Masters of Astapor}} especially, for selling the entirety of what was by far their main military strength to {{spoiler|Daenerys}}. Inside their city walls. Even if they didn't realise she didn't like {{spoiler|slavery}}, you'd expect anyone in this [[Crapsack World|world]] to realise that giving someone this perfect opportunity to completely screw you over really easily, would probably cause them to completely screw you over really easily.

** {{spoiler|Vardis Egen, a knight serving Lysa Tully}}, falls for the old rope-a-dope when championing his lady against {{spoiler|Bronn, in a trial by combat to determine the fate of Tyrion Lannister. He goes to fight Bronn wearing a full set of heavy plate and carrying a large shield and a sword he has never used before, while Bronn wears only light armor and a half-helm, while carrying only his old, notched but still deadly longsword. Ser Vardis presses the attack, while Bronn dances around his blows, and when the knight tires and stumbles, Bronn sees his chance and topples a small statue on top of Ser Vardis, them stabs him though a joint in his armor.}}

** Many people can't get over the huge age differences between the girls and the men who are interested in them. However, being set in this time period, it is realistic that girls that are only teenagers would be considered grown enough to marry. Especially noteworthy is Dany, who married her first husband at the age 13 (her husband was around 30). After her husband is out of the way, Ser Jorah puts the moves on her and wants to marry her. Ser Jorah is 40-something, and Dany is still a young tween at this point. Sansa has numerous suitors that are much older than her as well - starting the series at 11-12 years old, Littlefinger (who starts the series at 29) already looked at her as though she were naked, and The Hound (20-something) demonstrates attraction to her. Dontos, who is middle age, also repeatedly tried to kiss her. By the time she is 13, Littlefinger has gone into the realm of molesting her and forcing her to kiss him.

* [[Villain Decay]]: Cersei seems like a frighteningly competent [[Chessmaster]] early on. It's later revealed that she's [[Small Name, Big Ego|anything]] [[Smug Snake|but]].

** Theon is the master of it. Jon has some Wangsty moments as well early on in the series, but becomes more mature as his career in the Night's Watch progresses.

** Possible [[Fridge Brilliance]] when you realize that Theon's [[Wangst]] is probably deliberate in ''A Clash of Kings'' in order to make the readers dislike him and see him for the arrogant, entitled prick that he is. After his {{spoiler|horrific torture at the hands of Ramsay Snow}}, his [[Wangst]] evolves into seriously chilling territory.

** Jon Snow

** Tyrion is the biggest one in the series, and that's saying a lot.

** Penny: The sweetness of Sansa and the stature of Tyrion.

** Podrick Payne.

** A kind of weird inversion occurs with Robin Arryn in the first book - the reader wishes that someone would just take him away from his overprotective mother and force him to man up. You know your mother is bad when the readers wish that you had been sent to be fostered by ''Tywin Lannister.''

*** Even his father noticed it and wanted to send him to Stannis Baratheon.

** Jaime, since ''A Storm of Swords''.