A Song of Ice and Fire/YMMV: Difference between revisions

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** {{spoiler|Tywin is one of the strongest candidates for Big Bad, and is a highly competent strategist, chessmaster and manipulative bastard, and were it not for his blind spot with regards to Tyrion could easily qualify as a magnificent bastard. Consequently, one might expect that he would die in a manner befitting such a powerful figure, with either Robb Stark or Daenarys Targaryen getting revenge on him. His death, while very appropriate in its own way (see Karmic Death on the main page), does not meet the expectations of those who saw him as the Big Bad. Of course, since he was ''never'' the [[Big Bad]] in the first place and was actually a [[Red Herring]] at best- half the stuff you think he orchestrated was masterminded by another person; Tywin was mostly reacting to events rather than controlling them-, this might be a moot point.}}

** {{spoiler|Pretty much everyone who seems like they're going to be a Big Bad dies in a rather inglorious way. Viserys is going to sell his sister to gain an army to take back the throne for House Targaryen? Well, not for himself, at least. Drogo's going to conquer the Seven Kingdoms with an army of horsemen? Not after a poorly-treated infected wound kills him. Balon Greyjoy, king viking of the Iron Isles, is leading a second rebellion against a shattered Seven Kingdoms? He dies ''off-page''. Renly, while hardly evil, was portrayed as the biggest danger to the other contenders for the throne in ''A Clash of Kings,'' and he dies in an out-of-nowhere way without fighting a battle against the other armies. At least semi-minor [[Complete Monster]] villain Gregor Clegane died a satisfyingly horrible death after being poisoned in a climactic fight.}}

* [[Anvilicious]]: The notion that the Middle Ages were a romantic time of heroism and chivalry is complete BS. War is ''always'' hell, even (and ''especially'') when it's waged by knights in shining armor. And when noble lords wage power struggles, the common people get shafted in the end no matter who wins. As cool as dragons and wizards may be, everyday life in a [[~~JRR~~ ~~Tolkien~~ ~~(Creator)~~|Tolkien-esque]] fantasy world would be hell for most people. This trope applies, however, because sometimes Martin goes overboard- for instance, in [[Real Life]] if the nobility of the Middle Ages tried to treat their peasantry half as bad as some of the Houses of Westeros did, the economy would have collapsed and the Houses would have been very poor- and very dead- very quickly. Also, most Middle Age battles were not actually as brutal (or as epic) as they are portrayed- most of them were skirmishes and ended before they had a chance to get that far, because commanders and soldiers at the time were too [[Genre Savvy]] to ''let'' them get that far and achieve nothing but scores of dead soldiers. Only a handful ever really reached that level of violence and scale.

* [[Anvilicious]]: The notion that the Middle Ages were a romantic time of heroism and chivalry is complete BS. War is ''always'' hell, even (and ''especially'') when it's waged by knights in shining armor. And when noble lords wage power struggles, the common people get shafted in the end no matter who wins. As cool as dragons and wizards may be, everyday life in a [[J. R. R. Tolkien|Tolkien-esque]] fantasy world would be hell for most people. This trope applies, however, because sometimes Martin goes overboard- for instance, in [[Real Life]] if the nobility of the Middle Ages tried to treat their peasantry half as bad as some of the Houses of Westeros did, the economy would have collapsed and the Houses would have been very poor- and very dead- very quickly. Also, most Middle Age battles were not actually as brutal (or as epic) as they are portrayed- most of them were skirmishes and ended before they had a chance to get that far, because commanders and soldiers at the time were too [[Genre Savvy]] to ''let'' them get that far and achieve nothing but scores of dead soldiers. Only a handful ever really reached that level of violence and scale.

* [[Broken Base]]: The fanbase was actually a pretty contented one up until the publication of ''A Feast For Crows''. With ''A Dance With Dragons'' finally out, the new broken base seems to divide between fans who love it and consider it a return to form, and those who hate it and consider it AFFC 2.0. And then there are those who loved AFFC and don't consider the idea of AFFC 2.0 to be a bad thing. The split in the fanbase seems to be a result of the increased focus on world building in AFFC and ADWD. Westeros and Essos are presented in more detail than ever before, but parts of the fanbase consider this to have occurred at the expense of plot.

* [[Complete Monster]]: [[Crapsack World|Has]] [[Beyond the Impossible|its]] [[Complete Monster/A Song of Ice and Fire|own page]]

* [[Crowning Moment of Awesome]]: Has [[A Song of Ice and Fire ~~(Literature)~~/Awesome|its own page]].

* [[Crowning Moment of Awesome]]: Has [[A Song of Ice and Fire/Awesome|its own page]].

* [[Crowning Moment of Funny]]: Again, has [[A Song of Ice and Fire ~~(Literature)~~/Funny|its own page]], although it needs more love.

* [[Crowning Moment of Funny]]: Again, has [[A Song of Ice and Fire/Funny|its own page]], although it needs more love.

* [[Crowning Moment of Heartwarming]]: Perhaps surprisingly for a series this cynical, [[A Song of Ice and Fire ~~(Literature)~~/Heartwarming|there are several]].

* [[Crowning Moment of Heartwarming]]: Perhaps surprisingly for a series this cynical, [[A Song of Ice and Fire/Heartwarming|there are several]].

* [[Draco in Leather Pants]]: Littlefinger is wildly popular, despite being one of the most scheming and villainous characters in the series, and in many ways the [[Big Bad]] of the story ([[Big Bad Ensemble|or one of, anyway]]). It helps that he's quite witty as well as described as handsome and stylish. More than one fan has even expressed a wish to see Littlefinger come out on top in the game of thrones.

** Sandor Clegane is also extremely popular despite his violent and morally gray behavior. He, on the other hand, is repeatedly described as hideously deformed.

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** A Dance with Dragons spoiler: {{spoiler|Aegon Targaryen, literally.}}

** Jaqen H'ghar seems to be disguised as an alchemist visiting Oldtown.

* [[Hilarious in Hindsight]]: A little meta, but the November 15th, 2009 Podcast of Ice and Fire contains an off-the-cuff joke about ''[[~~Duke Nukem Forever (Video Game)|~~Duke Nukem Forever]]'' coming out before ''A Dance with Dragons'' would, at a time when ''DNF'' was officially cancelled. Sure enough, ''Duke Nukem Forever'' came out exactly 4 weeks before ''Dance''.

* [[Hilarious in Hindsight]]: A little meta, but the November 15th, 2009 Podcast of Ice and Fire contains an off-the-cuff joke about ''[[Duke Nukem Forever]]'' coming out before ''A Dance with Dragons'' would, at a time when ''DNF'' was officially cancelled. Sure enough, ''Duke Nukem Forever'' came out exactly 4 weeks before ''Dance''.

* [[Ho Yay]]:

** Renly and Loras, as confirmed by [[Word of God]]. Interestingly, according to Martin, Renly's ''Rainbow'' Guard was not supposed to reference the popular symbol for homosexuality. It was simply a product of Renly's fondness for bright colors and fashion--though that is still a stereotypical gay trait.

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* [[Memetic Badass]]:

** Randyll Tarly became the fandom's answer to the Chuck Norris Facts fad. Tarly is a fairly tough customer in the series, but nothing close to the level that fans playfully describe him.

** Jaime Lannister is known within the world as one of, if not the best, swordsmen around. The 2010 suvudu.com "cage matches" between fictional characters drew a large contingent of supporters for Jaime, who bested [[Harry Potter (~~Literature~~)|Hermione Granger]] and Cthulhu, among others, before facing off against ''[[The Wheel of Time]]'''s [[Crystal Dragon Jesus]], [[The Chosen One|Rand al'Thor]]. Martin wrote short descriptions of how he thought Jaime would win, which usually relied on Tyrion providing him a gameplan.

** Jaime Lannister is known within the world as one of, if not the best, swordsmen around. The 2010 suvudu.com "cage matches" between fictional characters drew a large contingent of supporters for Jaime, who bested [[Harry Potter (novel)|Hermione Granger]] and Cthulhu, among others, before facing off against ''[[The Wheel of Time]]'''s [[Crystal Dragon Jesus]], [[The Chosen One|Rand al'Thor]]. Martin wrote short descriptions of how he thought Jaime would win, which usually relied on Tyrion providing him a gameplan.

** Wyman Manderly has attained this status (with praises that sound almost Chuck Norris-esque, e.g. {{spoiler|"Lord Manderly is a vegetarian. Meaning, he does not eat Freys until first he puts them into vegetative state with his fists."). His earned badassery comes from the fact that ''everyone'' underestimated the fat jolly man, and that he had the audacity to feed [[I'm a Humanitarian|Frey pies]] to people like ''[[Complete Monster|Ramsay Bolton]]'' without them even ''suspecting'', and even having the bard sing "Rat Cook" right to their faces without them realizing anything, and finally ''surviving his throat being cut''.}}

* [[Memetic Mutation]]: "Oh sweet child of summer". Typically used by those who have read all the books to tease newcomers about how much worse things get.

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** Fandom Example: Catelyn Stark, despite being a kind and caring mother and a woman with a strong sense of honor and duty. She is widely disliked because her first actions in the series are against the extremely popular Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister. Against Jon, she is openly disdainful generally, and in a moment of mad grief over her comatose seven year old son Bran, she tells him "it should have been you" before breaking down in tears. Soon after, upon meeting Tyrion Lannister at an inn, she mistakenly arrests him for the attacks on Bran. This arrest serves as the trigger that sets the long simmering tensions in Westeros aflame, erupting into the War of the Five Kings.

** Also, [[Fan Dumb|many fans refuse to forgive Sansa]] for her personality and actions in the first book, ignoring her development over the course of the next few books or even saying it can never excuse her past mistakes.

* [[Nightmare Fuel]]: Many, many instances; has [[A Song of Ice and Fire ~~(Literature)~~/Nightmare Fuel|its own page]].

* [[Nightmare Fuel]]: Many, many instances; has [[A Song of Ice and Fire/Nightmare Fuel|its own page]].

* [[No Yay]]:

** Ramsay Bolton's very...''fond'' of his Reek. This only makes being Reek even more terrifying, if that's even ''possible.''

** Also, in early books, Littlefinger's stroking Sansa's face, commenting on her attractiveness, saying he understands Joffrey wanting the "sweet prize" of her body, squicked out many fans. {{spoiler|After book three, he's too obvious about his attraction to her for it to count as subtext, but, now that he's her [[Creepy Uncle|uncle]] and [[Parental Incest|adoptive father]], it's even creepier.}}

* [[Opening a Can of Clones]]: The Faceless Men; just look at [[A Song of Ice and Fire ~~(Literature)~~/WMG|the WMG page]]. This despite the fact that the only use of [[Actually a Doombot]] the series has so far pulled off was actually Melisandre's doing. This also seems to be based on an earlier understanding of Faceless Man powers that was jossed in ''A Dance With Dragons'' {{spoiler|The Faceless Men keep around faces taken off of corpses and use blood magic to put them on their own faces. While this doesn't necessarily rule out impersonation via glamour, chances are that if a Faceless Man impersonates someone, the person they are impersonating is dead}}.

* [[Opening a Can of Clones]]: The Faceless Men; just look at [[A Song of Ice and Fire/WMG|the WMG page]]. This despite the fact that the only use of [[Actually a Doombot]] the series has so far pulled off was actually Melisandre's doing. This also seems to be based on an earlier understanding of Faceless Man powers that was jossed in ''A Dance With Dragons'' {{spoiler|The Faceless Men keep around faces taken off of corpses and use blood magic to put them on their own faces. While this doesn't necessarily rule out impersonation via glamour, chances are that if a Faceless Man impersonates someone, the person they are impersonating is dead}}.

* [[Puppy Love]]: Arya/Gendry, Bran/Meera, and Bran/Daenerys (who, it should be noted, have never met each other).

* [[Real Women Never Wear Dresses]]: A good part of the Sansa hate comes more from her girliness than anything else. Some fans have warmed up to her somewhat as she acquires [[Jade-Colored Glasses]].

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** People are deeply divided on the subject of Catelyn, but she's one of the most disliked of the main characters among the fandom due to her poor treatment of Jon and her rash behavior.

** Arianne's chapters are disliked by some segments of the fandom mainly because {{spoiler|her plot led nowhere.}} However these chapters actually {{spoiler|reveal important setup for House Martell's plans for Dany.}} So your mileage really may vary on this one.

** Dany's Meereenese supporting cast in ''A Dance With Dragons'' is very unpopular for a variety of reasons - difficult names, perceived blandness and the idea that the conflict in Meereen is [[Trapped By Mountain Lions|ultimately irrelevant]]. Daario Naharis draws particular ire for his negative effect on Dany's character.

** Dany's Meereenese supporting cast in ''A Dance With Dragons'' is very unpopular for a variety of reasons - difficult names, perceived blandness and the idea that the conflict in Meereen is [[Trapped by Mountain Lions|ultimately irrelevant]]. Daario Naharis draws particular ire for his negative effect on Dany's character.

* [[Squick]]: The series is known for its grittiness, gore, and creepy sex scenes. Often the squick is played for black humour.

** Some people really react poorly to the sex scenes involving Tyrion. Other than him being an ugly dwarf, however, they're pretty normal.

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* [[Seasonal Rot]]: ''A Feast for Crows'' features only half the usual characters and places a lot of emphasis on new characters, giving the reader more of a commoner's perspective of Westeros than before. Many readers rejected the shift in emphasis, preferring the focus stay on the main plotlines and characters.

* [[Shipping]]: Many examples, such as Sansa/The Hound, Lyanna/Rhaegar (they've both been dead fifteen years, but nothing will stop the ship), Jon/Dany ({{spoiler|the latter might be his aunt, plus they've never even met}}), Tyrion/Sansa, Tyrion/Penny and even {{spoiler|Theon/Jeyne}} despite{{spoiler|the implication that Ramsay had Theon gelded.}}

* [[Tear Jerker]]: Many, many examples. Has [[A Song of Ice and Fire ~~(Literature)~~/Tear Jerker|its own page]].

* [[Tear Jerker]]: Many, many examples. Has [[A Song of Ice and Fire/Tear Jerker|its own page]].

* [[Too Cool to Live]]: {{spoiler|Syrio Forel}}, so much. {{spoiler|Oberyn Martell}} too.

* [[Too Dumb to Live]]:

** {{spoiler|Eddard Stark}}, for putting [[Honor Before Reason~~|honor before reason~~]] and trusting an admitted backstabber.

** {{spoiler|Eddard Stark}}, for putting [[Honor Before Reason]] and trusting an admitted backstabber.

** {{spoiler|Lysa Arryn,}} for trusting and even loving the same admitted backstabber.

** {{spoiler|Viserys Targaryen,}} for spazzing out all the damn time, especially when he shouldn't.