Black Butler (manga)/Headscratchers: Difference between revisions

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* Why doesn't anyone notice that Ciel Phantomhive's butler looks a lot like the late Earl Phantomhive (Ciel's dad)?

** Either Ciel or Sebastian actually did this on purpose; his looks were formed from his father, and he was named after his beloved dog. Both had died.

*** I think what the OP meant was why don't any of the ''characters'' notice that he looks like Vincent (instead of the fandom, since most of them have noticed by now), which is actually a good question, since it has indeed already been mentioned that Ciel chose to have Sebastian look like Vincent.

** One of the more sensible explanations this troper has seen is that since the resemblance is so close, people who do notice it might think that Sebastian is an illegitimate child of Vincent's, and that either Vincent or Ciel took him up as a servant as a way of providing him with a living. Any in-universe character who comes to this conclusion is ''probably'' also sensible enough to know it's not the sort of topic you bring up for discussion.

** Take into account that so far as most characters know, Sebastian is just a regular young man. They look at him and figure he's probably in his early-mid twenties, and assume that if he did have any kids, they'd be younger than Ciel,so they know he's not secretly Ciel's dad coming back in an obvious disguise or something. Also:

*** IIRC the reason they don't look that similar in the anime version is because Sebastian is still based more on Yana's older drawings in the anime, whereas Vincent was introduced later on in the series so of course they based him on her updated design. However in the manga, at least IMO, they have the same face shape and everything. Only their hair's different, and Vincent has a mole. Plus somewhere it's been mentioned that Ciel wanted Sebastian to take the shape of his father, so.

**** Nope. That's non-canon. I don't believe that fan theory has ever been endorsed by the manga author. It's more a case of [[Epileptic Trees]] than anything. Also, their eye-shapes, mouth shapes, and hair are still really different. (I read the manga and watch the anime) I really don't see why people are so insistent they look the same. They're drawn in the same style by the same author as attractive men, of COURSE they look similar.

 

* What is a European redhead housemaid doing with a name like Mey-Rin?

 

* In the manga, Ciel and Elizabeth's mother are having a nice little hunting party when suddenly [[Everything's Worse with Bears|a BEAR jumps out!]] Now, did the author just [[Did Not Do the Research|forget]] or did she actually think bears ran around the outskirts of London?

** It's mentioned that Ceil does not live close to London. So it's not that unusual.

*** "Not that unusual"? ''We do not have freaking BEARS in Britain!''

**** Given that the Phantomhives/Middlefords are indisputably of the [[Badass Family]] type, maybe they just decided to have bears lurking around the estate . . . not as pets, but to keep the kids from growing too complacent in a safe environment. Or as an awesome security system.

**** In those times, bear-baiting was a popular event for nobles. Maybe one escaped from a bear-baiting party?

* Madam Red {{spoiler|dies}} and then it's almost as if [[Angst? What Angst?|they forget]] [[Forgotten Fallen Friendabout|her]]. Technically, Ciel in Season 2 really does, but the manga is basically the same. Wouldn't Ciel show at least some more remorse ''or'' hatred towards Grell? In fact, the only one who is a big reminder that she actually existed as a character is Grell, {{spoiler|[[Tragic Keepsake|who wears her coat almost as a token]]}}.

** Odd that you bring up the coat, because that's something that really bugged me until I rewatched the third episode of [[Kuro II]]. Ciel doesn't {{spoiler|have any memories at this point. When they head to London, he mentions not wanting to run into Madam Red, and Sebastian replies, rather morbidly in hindsight, that that won't be an issue.}} When they meet Grell later, Ciel {{spoiler|specifically reacts to the color of Grell's coat. "That red..." He obviously doesn't recognize Grell as Anonymous-Bespectacled-Butler, but he recognizes the color of the coat. He may not make the connection that it is, in fact, the exact same coat, but he recognizes it.}}

** After {{spoiler|Madam Red dies}} in the manga, Elizabeth and her mother come to visit Ciel, and Lizzie mentions {{spoiler|that she's happy to see Ciel enthusiastic about his competition with Elizabeth's mother. She specifically says that Ciel was very close to Madam Red, and she wasn't sure how he'd manage after her death. This being Ciel, of course the answer is "stoic".}}

** No. The manga is not the same. The animation takes it own course pretty much after Jack the Ripper and Grell has several appearances (and has his character derailed) but manga wise, we haven't seen him since Jack the Ripper. William has shown up more than him. As for no angst, Ciel has suffered through worse shit than losing a family member at this point. Plus he has to keep up appearances. He doesn't want to be considered a child, so if the public saw the great head of the Phantomhive household (male no less) angsting and moaning and whining about his Aunt's death...well respect for him would severely decline. Both in the manga and in the fandom.

* Am I the only one who find the household staff being {{spoiler|uber-[[Badass]]}} something of an [[Ass Pull]] or at the very best, [[Cerebus Retcon]]? Especially annoying is {{spoiler|Maylene. If she is a [[Cold Sniper]] on crack, why does she keep breaking all the dishes? Why acting so idiotic? What's the point? [[Obfuscating Stupidity]] does not explain it because everyone already knows that anyway}}. Seriously, if all they were good for was {{spoiler|to guard the house}}, why do they even bother {{spoiler|being a housework staff that they are so incompetent at being at}}?

** Ciel keeps them because they are a permanent annoyance to Sebastian.

*** [[Fridge Brilliance|Oh, my god.]]

** Rather than an [[Ass Pull]], I believe this is more of a [[Fridge Logic]] sort. Sebastian is capable to do much better work than all of them combined, and Ciel wouldn't keep them around if they aren't useful.

** They might also be trying to brighten up Ciel's life by being funny and entertaining. Seems like something they might do.

** They were brought almost solely for the purpose of being guards. But when they're not doing that job, they need something to do, so he assigned them tasks. They just happen to be bad at them. (Except when Agni is instructing them) As for Maylene, she strikes me as the type that is TOO relaxed when not under pressure, (or rather, when not working in her field of choice, killing) and that makes her seem clumsy.

** No. An [[Ass Pull]] badass is {{spoiler|Elizabeth. Hiding it because "I didn't want him to not think I'm cute}} is an ass pull of the highest caliber.

*** Not really if you think of the time period. {{spoiler|Elizabeth's}} belief stems from growing up in a time when girls were meant to be quiet and submissive and never fight or even speak very loudly, and essentially just sit there and look pretty. While it may seem strange to people in modern times, it does make some sense that she'd feel this way, and hide her badass side accordingly, when you take that into account.

*** No. No it doesn't. Hiding it for one of the dumbest reasons in manga history because {{spoiler|she didn't want him to think she wasn't cute}} doesn't stem from a belief system. It stems from the writers of this manga being total hacks. The fact that she could have been a useful character in the previous 50 or so chapters and she just ''suddenly'' becomes a sword swinging badass all of a sudden is a grade A, 100 % [[Ass Pull]].

*** How so? To be honest, we don't know much about {{spoiler|Lizzie, considering that she shows fairly infrequently in the manga, the Titanic Arc is probably the first time since the Beginning Arc that Lizzie had a significant role. We already know that she isn't what she appears considering her conversation with Sebastian after the bear attack (although she isn't free some the impulsiveness and brattiness that comes with being a child. Plus, it was the only one of two times we, as the readers, see her in mortal danger. She can't exactly take down a bear that's easily x8 her weight and it was sudden. Her hidden badass does go along with KSJ's theme that not everyone is what they appeared. Although I understand with some of the criticism that it wrecks Lizze's role of being a "normal" character. But it is not an Asspull if it doesn't go against her character so far. Lizzie's hatred of her hidden badass side isn't entirely shallow. Remember that Frances will only get out of Ciel's hair if he can protect Lizzie properly and Lizzie feels like being a typical girl makes it easier for Ciel to try to protect her even if she doesn't need it. And she might liked that feeling also. Plus, Lizzie wants to be that girl as well so I can understand her view. Maybe hesitating while zombies are murdering up the place wasn't exactly the perfect place to have some sort of existential crisis but it's not like she comes across zombies everyday and actually looked quite shaken until her reveal.}} Poor girl just can't win with this fandom.

*** [[Word of God]] says she planned it from the start on her blog.

*** Justify it all you like, it will forever be both an [[Ass Pull]], and the reason the manga has been dropped by certain people.(Meaning me.)

*** I'm not a [[Yaoi Fangirl]]. I'm not even a girl. [[Tropers/Kentucky Troper 1990|I'm a guy]] who just hates Elizabeth.

*** Fine, exclude the [[Yaoi Fangirl]] and we still got the [[Fan Dumb]] of character bashing. Really, it makes sense, especially considering what our fellow Tropers have pointed with the above. And to make this not become a [[Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment]], I'll say my [[Headscratchers]] for this: ''What'' bugs me is how in the world Ciel, being Elizabeth's fiance, ''doesn't know'' his fiancee is {{spoiler|a rapier-wielding [[Badass]].}} She has entered ''tournaments'' before. Tournaments most likely held by the Queen herself (seeing there's Earl Grey there) and (maybe) posted in newspaper. And this become more like a [[Fridge Logic]] than a [[Headscratchers]].

*** Okay, I can understand that. The fact that {{spoiler|practically everyone is a badass now}} ''does'' ruin the fact that they're supposed to be ''normal''. But then again, [[World of Badass]]. I suppose our lovely author is trying to slowly shape the Kuroshitsuji world into a [[World of Badass]]. But {{spoiler|Lizzy}} being a {{spoiler|[[Dual-Wielding]] [[Badass]]}} does make sense. And even {{spoiler|Undertaker}} ''did'' always seemed to be a bit... unusual, dont you think? I like the {{spoiler|rouge Shinigami thing}} better than what they did with the anime. And the fact that there's no eyeglasses, a nice touch. I didn't like how {{spoiler|Meyrin, Baldroy and Finny became badass}} though, I can give you that for being an [[Ass Pull]].

*** I don't how something can be an [[Ass Pull]] if it's completely relevant to the plot and makes sense. Lizzy being a badass? Plenty of reason given above as to why this isn't a shock. The staff? Pretty dang obvious why he kept them around. Ciel would never in a million years keep useless servants around. It seems to me what you guys are calling ass pulls is just things that you personally don't like. Do you have a right to not like them? Totally. However, when you consider that most of Ciel's life revolves around dangerous activities and purposely associating with people involved in dangerous activities, why does it surprise you that the people around him have the ability to cope with dangerous activities? I mean, for goodness sakes, Lizzy is marrying Ciel. How is it at all possible that she wouldn't know what her husband did for a living? Hiding a talent is one thing. Hiding what 99% of Ciel's life revolves around is just impossible. Of course she needs to learn to defend herself, especially after what happened to the previous heads of house. Storywise, if you don't like it, that's fine. However, saying it came out of no where when the author takes great pains to show why it DIDN'T come out of no where is just silly.

* Okay, seriously. In the recent murder mystery arc, why was no one smart enough to ''leave the mansion''? Sure, it was raining heavily, but just how the hell is that any comparison to the dangers of staying in a mansion that a murderer is lurking in?

*** But couldn't they have walked somewhere safer? I mean Ciel's mansion can't really be that far from a town, can it?

*** One man tried to leave. Ciel didn't let him.

* In the manga there is electricity, cell phones (though rather bulky), video games, and television. This is all fixed in the anime but it just bothers me when things like that show up in the anime.

** Also the Italian mafia are wearing pretty modern clothes.

*** What are the Italian mafia even doing in Victorian England?

** You have to admit, for the first few chapters and even sometimes in the curry competition arc, Kuroshitsuji did seem like somewhat of a parody manga, usually parodying [[Shounen]] manga clichés. e.g. in the first chapter, when Sebastian fought against a martial artist calling out stupid-sounding moves; not to mention the fact that Sebastian is "perfect" and uses knives as weapons. And having a flamboyant gay/maybe transsexual death god. All of those (at least at the beginning) seemed a bit overdone and funny. As the series went on and it actually got a serious plot, you'll notice there aren't as many "mistakes" such as the mobile phone or television.

** Actually, some parts of the manga are so historically accurate it's impressive (plants on the fireplace, architecture, certain jibes about the time of tea in comparison to social classes) and then they throw a phone and a chainsaw and a TV in for laughs.

* In chapter 3, why doesn't Sebastian notice when the mafia guys sneak in through the window and kidnap Ciel? Exactly how good is his hearing, anyway?

** That's a simple excuse for [[Rule of Cool]]. If he had stopped them there, he wouldn't have had an excuse to go on an awesome rescue mission.

** I wouldn't put it past Sebastian to do it just so Ciel would get hurt. He's almost had him injected with snake venom in the manga and has expressed a desire to have others teach him a lesson more than once. Sebastian might be affably evil, but he's still evil.

* In the Manga in chapter 2; Sebastian's bow hold is incredibly unstable! there is no way he'd be able to play with that incorrect bow hold and sound good. I'm a violinist so the whole position of the instrument looks off to me, I've tried playing positioned like that and it's just painful.

** Well ... he is [[Rule of Cool|one hell of a butler]]

** But he can get heart burn, so it seems he can't defy EVERY law of the universe.

* Am I the only fan who doesn't outright hate [[The Scrappy|Elizabeth]]? Am I the only person who remembers [[Not So Different|what THEY were like when they were 12/13?]] Am I the only one who remembers that unlike Ciel, Elizabeth actually is a normal person? Hell, even her admitted lack of character depth has logical basis: since when do we even see Ciel go to her house? Does [[The Hero|Ci]][[Anti-Hero|el]] even know what she does all day when she's not hanging all over him?

** Wait, I thought Elizabeth was like 8 or 10 or something ...

** Well, considering that in her first appearance, she acts as a general nuisance, and shatters Ciel's family ring on the floor, your probably in the minority there.

***** Imposing + Acting like an infant + manipulating people + spineless? Same with Ciel. Actually, same with ''every single character in Kuro'' on some level. I'm with you on the voice, but she doesn't really "use tears to manipulate people", at all. Look, I'm not saying you can't hate a character, but I find your hatred kind of null considering you hate her for the traits that she shares with many, ''many'' other characters in the Kuro verse.

**** She [[Morality Pet|humanizes]] Ciel immensely; Sebastian/Ciel shippers usually fail to take into account the fact that Sebastian is essentially trying to corrupt Ciel into a revenge-bent child-monster, and YMMV but he seemed amused or even pleased when Ciel {{spoiler|kills the children and burns down the mansion in the circus arc}}. Lizzy, on the other hand, actually elicits protective feelings and normalcy from Ciel; she wants to make him happy and smile, while Sebastian delights in his misery. Not that this troper doesn't ship Sebas/Ciel, one just has to acknowledge that Sebastian will only elicit revenge and determination from Ciel whereas Lizzy could offer him genuine happiness. This troper's just a sadist who likes her broken characters to remain broken...

*** {{spoiler|And now it turns out she's actually a [[Deliberately Cute Child]] who acts the way she does to suppress her [[Little Miss Badass]] side.}} Didn't see that coming.

**** Original poster here. [[I Knew It!|I did.]] [[Evil Laugh|Mwahahaha!]]

*** He was forced into being engaged to her, he does say so himself. And with her having the family she does, he would be flayed alive if he tried to break it off.

* Madam Red was not the only doctor in her hospital. Why did they let {{spoiler|a woman who had lost her unborn baby and her ability to carry children perform abortions}}? That's cruel, even if you are {{spoiler|pro-choice}}!

** The key word there is "let". If Madam Red chose to preform a particular sort of surgery for which she was trained, they don't really have any reason to stop her (at least by Victorian Era co-ed doctor sensibilities). They may not even have known about her past, if she was sent to a different hospital and/or didn't work there until after her husband had already died.

* Grell is a [[Transsexualism]].. But I've never heard ''anyone'' call her by female pronouns in the fandom. What gives?

** It's not confirmed either way whether Grell is transsexual or just flamboyantly gay. Most people see him/her as male.

** Probably because it's treated as a joke in the series. Which is either historically accurate or downright offensive, depending on your opinion.

** This troper knows of several people who do call her "her", and we accept that the majority of fandom sees her as male and they will use the respective pronouns. Means we have to explain why we use female pronouns wherever we go. It's a pity, but it is how it is at the moment.

** There's really no indication [[In-Universe]] that he wants to be a woman; he comes off as a flamboyant stereotype. As for not calling him by female pronouns, he's pre-op if that character guide is to be taken as canon, and thus still technically male. This is Kuroshitsuji, not [[Family Compo]], so transsexualism doesn't come up because it's not pertinent to the story. Calling him by female pronouns would just confuse the majority of fans, and since he is fictional, there's really no reason to worry about offending him. It doesn't offend [[Real Life]] transexuals either according to what has been stated below, so there's really no problem.

*** With respect, it doesn't offend ''some'' [[Real Life]] transsexuals. It offended this real life transsexual to the point that someone accused me of being a psychopath, so different strokes.

* In chapter 55, Sebastian changes his gloves after killing the zombies. He didn't seem to have turned around... Lizzie and Snake were both watching. Does this not bother anyone?

** Are you referring to Sebastian's contract mark being visible? They probably thought it was some kind of tattoo.

*** ...A tattoo of a symbol of '''satanism'''. I'd think that it would attract a bit of attention.

**** Please do some research on pentagrams BEFORE saying rubbish.

* In chapter 5, how could {{spoiler|Ciel steal the head of a chocolate statue}}? Wasn't it a bit high for him? Why didn't he take something easier instead?

** [[Yu-Gi-Oh!: The Abridged Series|Because Shut Up.]]

* Doesn't ''anybody'' wonder where the [[Stealth Pun|hell]] Sebastian is from, or what happened to Ciel? I mean, both Elizabeth and Madame Red have mentioned that he just showed up one day with a 'pitch black butler'...cool, nothing alarming about that, right? Never mind that the Phantomhive manor was mysteriously burned down or that Ciel has been missing for a month and came back covered in bruises with bandages around his eye. Never mind how empty he seemed when he returned. I get that they were happy to have him back, but ''come on''.

** Not that you don't have a point, but I wager they were just so happy he was alive that they didn't care that he seemed off. You know, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" and all that jazz.

** To be fair though, Elizabeth doesn't really seem the type to ignore it...

*** I also agree, most people (Including Lizzy) were just happy that he was alive, but it's implied in chapter {{spoiler|chapter 66, that Lizzy has always wondered about it but she just doesn't have the guts to ask him..}}

* Okay, honestly, why is Grell listed as a female on the character page? This is coming from a soon to be FtM trans, too. No matter the mentality, I am biologically female at the moment and people address me as such. I don't mind and it only makes me more determined, but that's besides the point. In the anime, Grell was not much more than a stereotypical effeminate gay (or perhaps bisexual) male. In the manga then yeah sure, he's more wants-to-be-a-girl than 'effeminate', and I see him as more pansexual than gay/bi. Anyway, ''not a single character in the entire series'' refers to Grell as female - not even ''the author herself'', thus making it simply not canon to refer to him as female on the character page. It's a method of his personality that is sadly only used as comic relief and that's it, and it should be treated as such. Doing otherwise just confuses the fans, especially considering that most of the fans have only seen the anime. I get that we're trying to be considerate towards the trans community, but this is a ''manga'' we're talking about where the situation's only brought up in a character book. There's no reason to be so particular about something that's never truly pressed upon in-story, the way I and many other fans see it. Unless I'm missing something.

** None of the characters in the series refer to Grell as female because they were raised in the Victorian Era and subscribing to anything other than the heteronormative was a) basically inconceivable for most people and b) illegal for everyone else. The author doesn't refer to Grell as female because, based on most anime examples I've encountered, the only place with a more prevalent [[Trans Equals Gay]] mindset than Japan is ''Iran''. Our attempts to address Grell being transgendered seriously rather than as comic relief are ''probably'' due to the fact that ''using the fact that someone is transgendered as comic relief is'' '''REALLY FUCKING OFFENSIVE'''. And, yes, it's "just a manga". Except it's not just a manga, is it? It's a view that the author carried around in her back pocket and put into a manga. It's a view that you're deciding is okay to perpetuate because, oh noes, we might confuse the poor uneducated cisgendered fans if we show this character the basic human decency to be called the gender that she is. And kudos to you for being okay with having a female pronoun forced on you because I would have been violent to you in ways that would make Grell look like Strawberry Shortcake if you'd referred to me with a male pronoun half as many times as you did her.

** Also, keep in mind that the original poster is not the spokesperson of transexuals, fictional or otherwise. Just because that's how you feel doesn't mean that's how everyone feels. [[MST3K Mantra]].

 

[[Category:Anime and Manga/Headscratchers]]