Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Headscratchers/General: Difference between revisions

** It's also worth noting that the creators address this question directly in an episode where Buffy is deprived of her powers. She herself was shown at one point feeling as if without her powers she'd be nothing, but when they're actually removed, it's her resourcefulness, strategic planning ability and emotional strength and let her kick the bad guy's ass anyway.

** The fact that the two [[Badass Normal|Badass Normals]] are men but most of the female Scoobies have some kind of magic power makes it come off as "Men can fight supernatural evils just fine without special powers but the only way for a woman to be strong enough to fight evil is through supernatural intervention."

*** It's tricky because those things have lasted, so a modern geek would make ''some'' references to them... but having lots of them and few modern references I'd say ''is'' [[Totally Radical]]. It screams out "this is what someone the age of the writers, not the characters, liked as a kid". This goes double if more modern references are used to show that a character (Andrew) is uncool even by geeky standards. (And I missed the current references anyway. What were they?)

**** How precisely is the show going to make references to itself? It ''was'' the up-to-date geek reference at the time.

*** Harry Potter was mentioned... ''[[What Do You Mean It's for Kids?|by Dawn]]''. Manga was still very much a niche market, Hercules and Xena were old-school (and Xena is, in many minds, the only one of the two that made it to classic status) and more than the few Xena references they made would have seemed like an unsubtle lampshading of the idea that ''Buffy'' could be seen as an unsubtle ''Xena'' ripoff. Xander made a few ''Babylon 5'' references (at least I think they were Babylon 5, they could have been ''Battlestar Galactica'' or ''Battlefield Earth'' references), but nobody in-universe got them, whereas they did get the ''Star Wars'' references, so he kept making them. As for [[Magic: The Gathering]], I have no idea (maybe Xander just wasn't into collectible card games, [[Crack is Cheaper|as many people weren't and aren't]]), but Xander really seemed like an old-school:general preference and modern:FPS fan without much time or money(<-important) for games and up-to-date system. Buffy didn't have much time for entertainment (so she tended to stick to the must-sees, b-movies, and new stuff that came through the Sunnydale theater), Xander was mostly into the sort of things the others didn't bother with, Willow is a reader/studyist, and everyone else is between forty and three hundred years old (the latter of whom can't exactly go to the matinee). Oz is really the only main character who would intentionally make the sort of references that only he and/or Xander would get, and they ''did'' have a few back-and-forths, and he also made references that would be popular at the time and music references that nobody else would get, but he wasn't on for two thirds of the series and the writers didn't feel comfortable using him for anything but things with gravitas.

*** The issue isn't that there weren't no new references ''at all'', but that they were vastly outnumbered by old ones. And a lot of those explanations are reaching, most of them being explanations of why characters wouldn't know ''any references at all'', not explanations of why they would know old ones but not new ones. (Okay, Buffy didn't have time. But watching an old show takes as much time as watching a new show.) And saying "nobody in-universe got the references" just restates the problem: why are the writers writing characters who get references from the writers' childhood instead of contemporary ones? Also, manga was indeed big at the time. The series went up to 2003 and manga was big starting in 2000 or so.

***** Incorrect. You glossed over several points. Willow DID say she was happy, and that the violence stopped, neither of which are shown to be true. The bank robbery, the point isn't that it happened, it's that it was out of character in the first place. It doesn't matter whether they'll pay for it or not, it still contradicts Buffy's character development. You also didn't pay attention during the Faith arc. The arc STARTS with her trying to pack her bags and go away before Giles catches her, and Buffy isn't said to have anything to do with it. Ironically, if all fans are willing to resort to weak justifications like that, it answers my question as to why it's popular despite its flaws.

**** This troper also just wants to point out that Buffy's been lonely for a good, long while. The only male influences in her life right now are enemies, Xander (too much history there), Giles (squick), and Andrew (a whopping hell no). She mentioned in the first issue how much she missed sex. She's lonely, horny, and surrounded by an almost entirely female population. She can be forgiven a bit of sexual experimentation in the complete absence of males.

*** Agreed here. While they weren't the best of seasons, they certainly could've done worse. As for season 8... I dunno. Maybe [[Adaptation Decay]] but at the same time [[Fan Wank]] because so many fans wanted a season 8 that they're willing to make excuses for it anyway? Haven't read Season 8, so I wouldn't know, but that's my guess.

*** I also liked 6 and 7. Not as good as the others, but shows get like that late in their run. You have to try and make a foe that's even bigger and badder than the last, and topping a god ain't easy. I also quite enjoy 8 (I haven't finished it yet) The lesbian sex is okay, giant Dawn is okay, trusting Andrew is okay, and all the other weird shit is okay. I was just glad that there was more Buffy, and I got to see the continuing adventures of my favorite TV show.

*** Which isn't the point Buffy was making at all. Angel took the Cookie Dough speech to mean "Give me time and then we'll be together" when the point of it was that things change, people change, and there's no way of knowing who she'll be in the future or who she'll be with when she's become the person she's going to be as an adult. It was Angel that pushed the, "Who's going to enjoy cookie Buffy?" question, which Buffy answered with "I haven't really thought that far ahead."

* I feel that the fact that Angel 'fell in love with her heart' when he first saw a fifteen year old Buffy sitting on her school steps in a little girl outfit and sucking a lolipop sums up a lot about this relationship.

== Christian God in Buffyverse? ==

** The Christian god is, by definition, unique. So, if there's another god in the buffyverse, the Christian god can't exist. Isn't Glory defined as a god? (E.g. at the very end of "Checkpoint")

*** There are henotheistic elements in Judeo-Christianity, which is why God's given the Old Testament title "God of Gods". That's also how a lot of fantasy series (''[[Xena: Warrior Princess|Xena]]'' and ''[[Hercules: The Legendary Journeys|Hercules]]'' come to mind) manage to squeeze Christianity into a pantheistic setting. There are [[Physical God|gods]], and then there's [[God]].

* It's possilbe that it's not the cross that repells but the belief that it will. Vampire myths mainly came from Europe which had a strong christian history. People believed that the symbol of their Lord and Saviour would protect them and so it did. If Willow, or any other Jewish person, really believed that a Star of David would protect them then maybe it would. As for the likes of (''[[Xena: Warrior Princess|Xena]]'' and ''[[Hercules: The Legendary Journeys|Hercules]]'' squeezing in Christianity it was most likely to avoid offending the extreme christians

*** One of the producers -- might have been Joss, might have been Marti Noxon -- said the basic concept for Season 6 was that the Big Bad would be ''life itself''. This makes a lot of sense from a storytelling perspective -- when you've spent five years building up more and more badass villains to fight, and made your protagonists pretty damned powerful in the process, you need some fresh twist that's going to challenge them in a new way.

** I'll jump on board and say that I hated season 6 and 7. I still hate them. Time heals all wounds, and it's true, but I am still unable to be rational about my feelings about those seasons. I feel like the quality of the writing started to deteriorate in Season 4 and just kept on getting worse until it really felt like the show runners were deliberately attempting to provoke me. I know that some people like to add exceptions (like "Once More With Feeling") but I hate those exceptions (I have enjoyed nearly every single musical episode of any show I've watched....except for this one, which I hated). I haven't returned to those seasons since their original run (the few times I've tried I've had to stop or else kill people, and since I like not being a murderer....), so specific examples are tough to find, but in general I felt they played fast and loose with continuity, with characterisation, and with tone. What I've learned is that people watch TV for a lot of different reasons. For me, the large "structural" parts of plot and character development are critical, they are a part of the craft of writing. Other people enjoy good one-liners, inside jokes, attractive people, good special effects, melodrama, "surprises" and "twists" (in quotes because for something to be a surprise or a twist, there has to be a reason to expect something other than the surprise: without background consistency, EVERYTHING is a surprise or a twist, which means that nothing is). Seasons 6 and 7 may have gotten really good at some things, but in the process became much, much, MUCH worse at others, and for me those "others" were deal breakers. The reason why I (and I assume others) get so angry about it is because the show had a real big place in my heart. Seasons 1-3 of Buffy were written and produced exactly the way I want TV to be made - it was like falling in love with a person and then finding out halfway through that they were lying to me the whole time about everything. Luckily, I've been able to keep myself from lashing out too much, because really when it comes to TV, subjectivity is huge, and if I want the right to have my opinions, I've gotta respect your right to have yours (even if I really, really disagree).

** So, I've watched all seven seasons in the past two-three months, which I'll admit, gives me a sort of television-tunnel vision. But here's my take. I like Seasons Six and Seven. I recognize the faults. I recognize the cliches. I'm wish they'd handled the characters differently at some points, but still, I like them. Buffy is still one of the best shows I've seen and it's not because it's flawless, but because of its feel. The show is just enjoyable, by nature, inherently. It's fun, and clever, and puts the viewer in the proper mindset. And after all I'd seen, I loved the characters, for all their faults. And come on. It's not like they were any Scrubs season Nine, am I right?

** I agree with this. I have never understood all the S6/S7 hate myself, because for all their faults (and I DO reconize both seasons have numerous flaws) both Seasons stayed relatively true to what I've loved about the series all along. Plus, season 7 had Mal, even if he was an evil priest demon dude. You don't get much more win than that!

Percieved male-bashing throughout season 6 might have been a strong turn-off for a lot the fan base, especially for guys like this male troper. For five seasons BTVS managed to be a feminist show -- ''without'' ever suggesting that all men suck. That's rare enough in TV nowadays, and was rarer still when the show premered in 1997. The first five seasons of Buffy proved that with clever writing and interesting characters, a female protaganist could reliably teach sexists and misogynists a lesson (try to count the number of sexist 'ha, you're just a girl' vampires and humans that Buffy gets the better of in those seasons)-- while still unashamedly relying on her friends - ''including her male friends'' to back her up. Buffy was always a Girl Power show but always had room for the males to contribute to the forces of good. The fact that Giles, Xander, Good Angel, Oz and yes, even Riley were always there for her, and almost unconditionally supportive of her -- without ever upstaging her, was a strength of the show. Every one of the Scoobies was realisticly written, and we believed that although they'd sometime disagree, and every so often quarrel, when Buffy was going into battle the rest of the Scoobies had her back.

* Enter season Six, and two of the three remaining male characters (Xander, Giles, Spike) completely jump the rails. Giles abandons her for a very weakly explained in-universe reason, and Xander leaves Anya at the altar. Spike, (usually evil anyway) crosses the Moral Event Horizon by attempting to rape Buffy. In season 6 the entire slate of hitherto "good guys" visit three of the worst traumas and betrayals on Buffy and her female friends that any women can get from men. Although it's true that Giles and Xander both redeem themselves at the tail end of S6, a lot of damage has already been done. Riley's innocent in season six, but ends up accidently hurting Buffy anyway with a fine new job, and fine new wife while Buffy's life is in the crapper. His visit equalls more pain for Buffy at the hands of them men in her life. ....

== Angel and Angelus--Which When? ==

** Willow also seemed insecure about identifying as a lesbian. Remember when she flipped at Tara, sarcastically apologizing for not having as much "lesbian cred" or something like that? (I think this was in season 5, but I'm not sure.) Willow seemed to identify as lesbian because the women she was involved with needed the assurance that she wouldn't leave them for a guy - bisexuals get that a LOT, as stupid as it sounds. So it was an image thing for her.

* All of Willow's attractions to males were when she had no sexual experience and was in a heterocentric mindset. She checked out men because she'd been raised to believe that's what she was supposed to do and in doing so found positive traits in the group she was watching. Once Willow actually jumps on the woman love train she never gets off it. Her attraction to Xander was justa first crush and her enjoyment of it being realized died very quickly. She loved Oz for being Oz and, seeng as her was her first lover ever and sex still feels good she'd have no way of knowing if she'd prefer it with a woman yet. She remains fully in he woman camp even once Tara is gone, under a spell forcing her to become obsessed with a guy (she'll work around the penis and wanted change him into a woman) and every other instance. Even [[Vamp Willow]] seemed to enjoy women more than men, with the exception of Xander (though all vampirsare functionally bisexual, being without any reason to not act on any impulse).

** The fact that she didn't go for guys after Tara's death doesn't necessarily mean anything. Perhaps Willow got in her head exactly what the writers were afraid of: that if she were with a man after Tara's death, it would look disrespectful or as if she were admitting her lesbian attractions were only a phase. Perhaps she was bisexual and in denial about the fact. She wouldn't be the first bisexual girl to convince herself she was a lesbian by far. Sometimes there has to be a whole new realization/coming out process because of it.

** Willow has a thing about labels. It's part of her insecurity; she grabs a label that only slightly applies to her, and then hangs onto it for dear life and will defend it to the death. She does this with "lesbian", she does this with "Wiccan", hell, even Dark Willow does this when she says, "Now I'm the Slayer." It's the teen insecurities that, as we see in Restless, she never actually got over; she just buried it under a mountain of labels saying "Hey, look at me, I'm in the Lesbian Crowd now, isn't that cool?"

== Xander and Vampires ==

{{quote|{{smallcaps|Giles}}:"Jesse is dead! You have to remember that when you see him, you're not looking at your friend. You're looking at the thing that killed him." }}

Yes, Jesse was pushed onto the stake, but somehow I don't see that making a difference in the emotional impact here. If vampires are capable of love, especially without a soul, then Xander killed his best friend. I think it would be much easier for him to just believe that Giles was right the first time. So please, could everyone (most especially Bangel and Spuffy writers, hell, Spander writers, even), ''please'' remember to deal with that before vilifying/vampire-fanclubbing Xander? If' this rant doesn't belong here, I'm happy to move it. Total noob here, and not afraid to admit it. Just let me know and it's gone.