Do Not Do This Cool Thing: Difference between revisions

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*#* B.) Even with vaginal sex, kids can still find other loopholes, such as being engaged or being "spiritually married". They're not actually married, but they believe that you can still do it as long as you get married later. That part's prettymuch in the Bible: ancient Israelite (precursor to Jewish) law specified vaginal intercourse between a man and woman who were both unmarried as being exactly equivalent to marriage vows, the couple becomes instantly married (modern equivalent being "common law" marriage). Hence what seems to be a punishment for premarital sex (marriage) is actually a logical consequence (and hence no ban on fiancee sex).
 
== Advertising ==
* The UK government attempted to steer kids off drugs in [[The Eighties]] with a series of TV advertisements featuring emaciated youths in dingy surroundings. The kids in question are reputed to have thought they looked really cool. It doesn't help this was during the second wave of [[Goth]] pop music! If only they had known "heroin chic" was an existing underground fashion trend waiting to break into the mainstream.
* In general, [[Drugs Are Bad|Anti-drug ads]] tend to fall victim to this, especially the ones aimed at kids and teens. In general they have the same problem as [[Stealth Cigarette Commercial]]s. That is, the ads are considered so stupid and lame and insulting to one's intelligence, that people who watch them will want go use drugs simply out of spite. This is far from their only problem, however.
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* A lot of anti-gun PSA's and arguments. They start out by inflating the power and lethality of weapons currently available on the civilian market. Then they show someone somebody being victimized by a criminal with that powerful gun. Wouldn't you sleep better if you had a weapon of your own to use if someone scary like that came at you?
 
== Anime and Manga ==
* The ''[[Black Cat (manga)|Black Cat]]'' anime took great pains to try to show the viewers that the way of life of an assassin was wrong, and that people who have pacifist ideals are, in the end, stronger. However, all this effort was undermined when Train was shown to be [[Badass|infinitely cooler and stronger]] when he was working for [[Nebulous Evil Organization|Chronos]]. His [[Evil Is Sexy|sleek black clothes]] complete with an awesome [[Black Cloak]], the way he managed to effortlessly defeat every single person who ever stepped in his way, and the way he [[The Stoic|tended to remain calm and collected]] all made him seem like he was much better off before he became a [[Technical Pacifist|pacifist]]. After he becomes a pacifist, he constantly ends up having to be saved by others, [[wangst]]s and throws temper tantrums, and wears clothes that aren't nearly as cool. One can understand why [[In Love with Your Carnage|Creed]] goes to such lengths to make him go back to being the way he was when he was an assassin...
* Most entries into the ''[[Gundam]]'' meta-series are meant to have an anti-war message - and many, especially those by [[Yoshiyuki Tomino]] do a decent job of depicting how war can utterly ruin people's lives. At the same time, it has beautiful, brightly coloured weapons of mass destruction that move with the grace and artistry of the Bolshoi, plenty of [[Magnificent Bastard]] villains you can't help but admire, [[Impossibly Cool Clothes|gorgeous]] [[Bling of War|costumes]] on the forces of dangerous space-fascists, and perhaps worst of all, some of the protagonists actually find some kind of meaning to their lives through the war that they may not have had without it.
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* The original ''[[Astro Boy (manga)|Astro Boy]]'' story "The Greatest Robot on Earth" attempted to have an anti-war message while still being a shonen fighting robots series.
* The original manga of ''[[Ghost in the Shell]]'' carries often painfully apparent warnings about the consequences of unchecked accumulation of power among not just government offices—including Section 9 itself—as well as commercial interests and, thanks to cybernetics, individuals themselves. The television series caries this further, demonstrating what happens when technology advances at a faster pace the law can hope to keep up with. And yet, the Major and her comrades come off as supremely professional and awesome, even as they consciously abuse the powers vested in them by the state.
* The manga of ''[[Dominion Tank Police]]'' comes right out and says it: any society that does not just use tanks to police itself, but feels as though it has no other option, has crossed a line from which there is probably no easy return. Masamune Shirow acknowledged that he made the mini-tank Bonaparte deliberately smaller and cuter than practical as a concession to the misery of having tanks driving around, trying to establish some semblance of order.
* ''[[Naruto]]'', and oh, ''how''. [[Silly Rabbit, Idealism Is for Kids|During the eponymous character's thirty-odd recurring speeches on creating a world unravaged by war out of a world completely embroiled in war,]], he never asks himself what he's going to with all these [[Dangerous Forbidden Technique]]s he's accrued over the years once this [[Happiness Is Mandatory|unquestioned uniform peace]] is achieved. What's more, he doesn't have any other education to speak of, and neither do any of his friends. Just imagine the unemployment levels! Expect [[Full-Circle Revolution]] to occur, shortly.<!--Some mention of Boruto should be made, but I have no knowledge of that manga, so if someone else could oblige. -Umbire-->
** [[Lampshaded]] in [[Little Kuriboh]]'s Abridged Parody Spoof Series Show:
{{quote|'''Naruto''': "But being a ninja is the only job in Ninja Village!"
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'''Naruto''': "The prostitutes in Ninja Village are also ninjas, that's why we call them NINJA prostitutes!!!"
'''Jokage''': "Oh yeah, nice..." }}
* ''[[Full Metal Panic!]]'' : [[War Is Hell|War is bad and can seriously mess you up]], but it's so awesome and [[Badass]] to do things like fight epic mech duels, compromise enemy bases single-handedly, and wrestle a Hind gunship out of the sky with a [[Humongous Mecha]].
 
== Comic Books ==
* Since [[Word of God]] [[Flip-Flop of God|finally made up their minds]] that the anti-registration side was in the wrong, this means ''[[Civil War (Comic Book)|Civil War]]'' was one of these for the message they were trying to send... [[Clueless Aesop|whatever the hell that was]].
** The Aesop was something along the lines of [[Family-Unfriendly Aesop|"If you aren't doing anything wrong]], [[Does This Remind You of Anything?|you have nothing to hide."]] Not a good aesop to use when your main readers are nerds, and a consist of- Liberalliberal kids who love freedom, Conservativeconservative kids who distrust the government, and Libertarians who REALLY distrust the government at that.
** It also doesn't make much sense independent of the audience's political leanings. We're none of us perfect, so we're all doing ''something'' wrong and all have ''something'' to hide.
** It's also pretty stupid when your primary audience is in the United States, which has fundamental parts of its Constitution devoted to the idea that the government should need to show cause and get a permission slip before invading your privacy - i.e., that even entirely innocent people can hide stuff if they want, because that's part of being in a free country.
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* [[DC Comics]]' war books were often gritty, dark, and featured tortured protagonists (especially those written by actual veterans, such as Joe Kubert and Robert Kanigher). They often ended with the sign-off, "MAKE WAR NO MORE!" But they were and are exciting adventure stories.
* [[Chick Tracts]] fall into this quite heavily.
** In general, the antics in the tracts often send the unintended message of "God is a dick who will send even good people to hell for not accepting my religion, meanwhile serial killers who do get off with no punishment." "You can kill as many people and steal and burn as many things as you want, if you accept Jesus right before death, you'll be marked as a good person and thus won't have to face any consequences." Depending on the tracts, he'll even make the devils funny or sufficiently clever to provide comic relief... until the Big Boring White Guy In The Sky throws them into hell in the last panel.
*** The notorious "Dark Dungeons" made roleplaying out to be an exciting life-or-death scenario that introduced real occultism and gave players fabulous supernatural powers that they can use to [[Mind Control|brainwash]] their parents to... ''gasp''... ''buying them stuff''. More than a few roleplayers love the tract and it has been parodied and affectionately referred to in innumerable ways among the subculture.
** Depending on the tracts, he'll even make the devils funny or sufficiently clever to provide comic relief... until the Big Boring White Guy In The Sky throws them into hell in the last panel
*** In his anti-Catholic tracts, he shows very little downside to being one of those dastardly papists, since they seem to have nothing but crazy sex parties, oodles of cash and secretly run the world.
*** The notorious "Dark Dungeons" made roleplaying out to be an exciting life-or-death scenario that introduced real occultism and gave players fabulous supernatural powers that they can use to [[Mind Control|brainwash]] their parents to... ''gasp''... ''buying them stuff''. More than a few roleplayers love the tract and it has been parodied and affectionately referred to in innumerable ways among the subculture.
*** ''The Contract'': Feel free to make a deal with the devil; you won't have to hold up your end.
*** In his anti-Catholic tracts, he shows very little downside to being one of those dastardly papists, since they seem to have nothing but crazy sex parties, oodles of cash and secretly run the world.
*** ''Wounded Children'': You should do what a demon tells you. No, really. {{spoiler|When some people attack Brian, the demon tells David to help him. Brian dies because he didn't.}}.
*** ''The Contract'': Feel free to make a deal with the devil; you won't have to hold up your end.
*** ''Wounded Children'': You should do what a demon tells you. No, really. {{spoiler|When some people attack Brian, the demon tells David to help him. Brian dies because he didn't.}}.
** ''[http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv324/immortalpictures/Lisa.jpg Lisa]'': It's okay to gang rape your children repeatedly as long as you accept Jesus and ask His forgiveness. The trauma will go away, just like the herpes. Children aren't even traumatized unless they're abused for ''more'' than several months. No one will even raise their voice to you when your victims out you as a child molester. It's normal for girls to bee abused by older relatives. ''Also'', a real man provides for his family instead of relying on his woman, and disturbing this natural order is likely to cause resentment, frustration and rape.
** A lot of fundamentalist messages in general can be boiled down to "feel free to indulge your darkest desires because you're probably going to [[Hell]] anyway", especially when Hell is depicted as a place where you can [[A Hell of a Time|carry on doing this for all eternity.]]
 
== Fan Works ==
* ''[[Tiberium Wars]]'' tends to depict intense, action-packed battles that nonetheless also contains a rather deep-down moral that [[War Is Hell]]. Some reviewers picked up on this, while others simply read it for the visceral combat.
* ''[[Poke Wars]]'' depicts the gritty, brutal, [[Gorn|gory]] and just ''nasty'' side of war and there is a fairly obvious [[War Is Hell]] message. Unfortunately, few of the reviewers notice this, instead choosing to focus on the dazzling fight scenes.
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** This trope also applies to the boot camp segment of the film as well as the Vietnam segment. While it's not meant to be an attack on the US military, it is intended to show how people have to become dehumanized in order to be effectively trained for war, and in the {{spoiler|case of Leonard, is so bad he ends up going insane and committing a [[Murder-Suicide]]}}. Despite this, the film is hugely popular among the US military largely because of the [[Badass]] [[Drill Sergeant Nasty|Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]].
** For that matter, the popularity of Gunnery Sergeant Hartman is an example of this - he's become such an iconic character that pretty much ''every'' [[Drill Sergeant Nasty]] in fiction since has been based on him (95% of them even being played by the [[R. Lee Ermey|original actor]]), despite the fact that getting shot and killed by one of his own recruits ([[Too Dumb to Live|who he continued verbally abusing despite the loaded rifle in said recruit's hands]]) means he's a demonstrable ''failure'' of a drill instructor.
* ''[[Inglourious Basterds]]'' [[Lampshade Hanging|lampshades]] this in a subtle, creepy way: there is a scene where [[Show Within a Show|Germans are watching]] a Nazi propaganda movie about a German sniper who [[One-Man Army|killed massive numbers of Allied troops]] while behind enemy lines. They are laughing and enjoying themselves watching people from our side get slaughtered, while [[You Bastard|you're laughing and enjoying yourself]] watching people from their side get slaughtered... which is arguably also a subversion of the trope, because making the audience confront this mental realization is the entire reason Tarantino made the movie.
* ''[[Jarhead]]'' also lampshades this trope. It's largely about that and the mindset of the Marines (such as author Anthony Swofford) stoked up and eager to [[A Real Man Is a Killer|lose their battlefield virginity with a kill]]. When they hear that they're about to be sent to the Persian Gulf, they rent a load of war movies to watch the cool battle scenes, including ''[[Apocalypse Now]]'', where [[Lampshade Hanging|the irony of liking anti-war movies for the violence is explicitly pointed out and reveled in]]. In a [[Double Subversion]], this was [[Misaimed Fandom|misinterpreted by audiences]], who cheered along with the Marines. Additionally, the film ends {{spoiler|with none of the main characters killing any enemies in the war, which they are extremely disappointed about.}} In the book, Swofford points out how "It doesn't matter how many Mr. and Mrs. Johnsons are anti-war. The actual killers who know how to use the weapons are not.".
** Arguably a subversion of the trope, because making the audience confront this mental realization is the entire reason Tarantino made the movie.
* ''[[Jarhead]]'' also lampshades this trope. It's largely about that and the mindset of the Marines (such as author Anthony Swofford) stoked up and eager to [[A Real Man Is a Killer|lose their battlefield virginity with a kill]]. When they hear that they're about to be sent to the Persian Gulf, they rent a load of war movies to watch the cool battle scenes, including ''[[Apocalypse Now]]'', where [[Lampshade Hanging|the irony of liking anti-war movies for the violence is explicitly pointed out and reveled in]]. In a [[Double Subversion]], this was [[Misaimed Fandom|misinterpreted by audiences]], who cheered along with the Marines. Additionally, the film ends {{spoiler|with none of the main characters killing any enemies in the war, which they are extremely disappointed about.}} In the book Swofford points out how "It doesn't matter how many Mr. and Mrs. Johnsons are anti-war. The actual killers who know how to use the weapons are not.".
* At the time ''[[Platoon]]'' came out, [[Roger Ebert]] opened his print review by mentioning the Truffaut quote and adding that "If Truffaut had lived to see ''Platoon'', the best film of 1986, he might have wanted to modify his opinion." Since this film has encouraged people to recruit, apparently not.
* ''[[Saving Private Ryan]]'' falls victim to this trope, partly because of [[Misaimed Fandom]] who have no personal war experience watching the visceral first 30 minutes [[Just Here for Godzilla|for the violence]], but also because of the increasingly [[melodrama]]tic last half of the film, {{spoiler|where the [[Armchair Military]] character temporarily freezes up, only to kill the assailant later, and the main characters sacrifice themselves one after another in ''[[Rambo]]'' like fashion to rescue [[No One Gets Left Behind|one man]].}} In this case, while the film is clearly anti-war, it does also try to encourage the viewer to understand and respect the soldiers who died during the war, but it goes a bit too far and falls into this instead.
* ''[[Starship Troopers (film)|Starship Troopers]]''. The film is anti-war/anti-militarist, intended to be a parody of the fascist elements in our society, but many viewers couldn't see past all the [[Bug War|cool bug killing scenes]] (or the [[Everybody Remembers the Stripper|co-ed shower scene]]). Even for the viewers who are paying attention, the message is further hampered by [[Poe's Law]]. There are obvious spoofs of the Federation propaganda, but the rest of the movie is easy to take seriously because it suggests that the [[Show Within a Show]] is understating the Federation's case.
** Considering the book's portrayal of the Federation, it's unsurprising. Heinlein intended the book to portray the positives of civic duty, necessities of war and capital punishment, etc. This led Heinlein to be accused of fascism, among other things. The movie's creators decided to remake it as a [[Take That]] against militarism and fascism, but by even superficially sticking to the book, they made the 'evil, fascist government' look awesome - even at the end of the sequel, when a recruiter jokes about a newborn male infant as being "new meat for the grinder."
*** Even at the end of the sequel, when a recruiter jokes about a newborn male infant as being "new meat for the grinder."
* ''[[Iron Man (film)|Iron Man]]'' has Tony Stark develop a conscience and an anti-war sentiment after he witnesses the atrocities indirectly caused by his inventions. In the second movie, the propaganda proliferated by military defense contractors is condemned. However, Iron Man and all his high-tech gear are just straight-up awesome, and they are by-products of the weapons development industry.
* ''[[Avatar (film)|Avatar]]'' is another ''Apocalypse Now'' and ''Jarhead'' to some - the marines are very obviously committing war crimes, but that didn't stop some people from enjoying that.
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History has demonstrated time and time again that this trope could easily be called "Mobsters Love Mob Movies":
* ''[[The Godfather]]'', as stylized and operatic as it was, was meant to be about the horrors of the mob. Instead, it kicked off a new generation of fascination with organized crime and even inspired actual mobsters to model themselves after it.
** A large part of it was that the Mafia was made indistinguishable from a mildly idealized picture of Medieval aristocrats. They took tribute but it was made to seem justified by the services they offered and lived in a world of debts and patronage. Most of the violence was about either carrying out the duties of protectors or vendettas against other mobsters (or corrupt cops which amounted to the same thing). They were not shown engaging in sex slaving, drug trafficking or stuff like that. In fact they are never shown acting like, well, ''criminals''.
* ''[[Goodfellas]]'' was intended in a way to be the anti-''Godfather.'' It was based on a true story and portrayed most mobsters as uneducated, crude, petty, sociopathic, and oftentimes downright incompetent and brutal. But it wound up having the same cultural effect as ''The Godfather'' anyhow. The gangster that [[Robert De Niro]]'s character was based on was reportedly thrilled such a great actor was portraying him, and kept trying to get in touch with DeNiro from prison to give him pointers. Similarly, the real Henry Hill wrecked his witness protection because he couldn't resist bragging about the movie.
** This one might have been partially because of the weird mixed messages the movie was sending. While the mob characters were usually portrayed as not so bright, unnecessarily violent, what have you, but Henry Hill's own comments at the end of the movie make it very clear that he wishes he was still in the life, and one would go as far as to say that getting caught is the only thing he regrets about being a gangster at all.
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* ''[[Bruce Almighty]]'' and ''[[Click]]'' try and make it clear that you shouldn't want fantastic solutions to your life's problems like [[God]]'s powers or a magical remote control because [[This Loser Is You|you're selfish]] [[Butterfly of Doom|and you'll end up screwing up your life (and everyone else's) even more]]. But let's face it, people walked out of those films thinking "[[I Wish It Was Real]]" and if they learned anything, it was only [[Fantastic Aesop|what not to do if it were]]. Sure, that's useful...
* ''[[A Clockwork Orange (film)|A Clockwork Orange]]'' features scenes of violence and rape intended to be morally repulsive, but actually inspired some real-life copycat crimes. In fact, one could argue that the movie's popularity rests almost entirely on its sensational aspects.
* ''The Condemned''. The [[Stone Cold Steve Austin]] star vehicle, revolves around a shady producer who arranges for death row inmates from around the world to be dropped on an island and forced to fight to the death, while the "show" is broadcast onto the Net under the name [[Title Drop|"The Condemned", hence the movie's title]]. However, [[World Wrestling Entertainment|WWE]] Films made the bizarre decision to turn this into a moralist tale by having several characters berate the brutality and senseless violence of the show... all the while showering ''the audience'' with scene after scene of brutality and senseless violence. To top it all off, it culminates with this quote: "All of us who watch... are ''we'' The Condemned?" (toTo which several critics replied "Yes. Yes we are.")
* ''[[Confessions of a Shopaholic]]'' spends so much time lovingly showing off gorgeous, high end fashion that it's a bit hard to take seriously its moral against irresponsible [[Conspicuous Consumption]] seriously. A TV promo on TBS said over the end credits of ''[[Sex and the City]]'' says something like "Can't decide what to wear? Go see ''Confessions of a Shopaholic'', now in theaters!"
** Trying to make compulsive shopping look like the hip thing to do during a ''recession'' didn't help much either. Nor was turning the debt collector into a [[Designated Villain]] by making him a jerk.
* ''[[The Count of Monte Cristo (film)|The Count of Monte Cristo]]'' (2002). In thefilm's final scene has Edmond professesprofess that his [[Revengerevenge]] was not worth the steep moral and physical price he paid to achieve it. On the other hand, we just spent two hours watching him enjoy every minute of his bloody revenge, and ''it was awesome''.
* [[Heath Ledger]]'s [[The Joker|Joker]] and his anarchist ideals in ''[[The Dark Knight Saga]]'' have raised a bigger fandom and acclaim than [[Christian Bale]]'s Batman. That's probably attributable to his line in the hospital, though - it makes his character actually have a concrete purpose.
** That's probably attributable to his line in the hospital, though - it makes his character actually have a concrete purpose.
{{quote|'''[[The Joker]]''': You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan." But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds!}}
*:* Unlike most villains, [[Villainous Valour|he's also audaciouslyaudacious braveas hell]]. He walks right into a meeting full of gangsters and kills the first person to come near him. Evil,He's sure,shown butthroughout takesthe afilm lotto morehave courageabsolutely than[[Not manyAfraid to Die|no fear of Batman'sdeath]], actionsbecause inhe theconsiders film,life as a lotwhole ofto whichbe involvea hidinggiant injoke. theHe shadowsmurders numerous people, [[Chaotic Evil|and if he gets murdered trying to spread chaos and absolute anarchy, that's just how life works.]]
:*Even after he begins to come apart when [[Ironic Echo|things don't go according to his plans]], he clearly isn't deterred, outright saying to Batman that he believes [[Harsher in Hindsight|they're going to do this forever]].
*** Less bravery and more that he doesn't give a crap. He's shown throughout the film to have absolutely [[Not Afraid to Die|no fear of death]] because he considers life as a whole to be a giant joke. He murders numerous people, [[Chaotic Evil|and if he gets murdered trying to spread chaos and absolute anarchy that's just how life works.]]
* ''[[Death Sentence]]'' pulls this off, and rather clunkily at that. The film is a beautifully shot ode to violent vigilante justice, that tries to speak against violent vigilante justice. It was made by the director of ''[[Saw]]''. It doesn't come off right.
** The ending makes that point debatable: although the protagonist's [[Roaring Rampage of Revenge]] was done in a somewhat glorified fashion, the ending doesn't suggest that he was proud of his actions when all was said and done. Given that the protagonist {{spoiler|lost his wife and almost his youngest son}} after he went after the gang member that killed his oldest son during the movie's opening, he's left looking emotionally defeated, full of sorrow and remorse.
** To say nothing of its [[Spiritual Predecessor]], ''[[Death Wish]]'', which glorified vigilante killing to the point of making several sequels, and turning actor Charles Bronson into a cinema action hero icon for decades to come. For better or worse, [author] Brian Garfield absolutely ''loathed'' the movie adaptation of ''Death Wish'' for this reason, while being relatively satisfied with how ''[[Death Sentence]]'' turned out.
* ''[[Downfall (film)|Downfall]]'' depicts Hitler as a sadistic, delusional madman., Otherand other top Nazis are just as bad. The war effort is denounced as a pointless waste, as untrained conscripts are being sent to die in a clearly hopeless struggle. Nevertheless, [[Misaimed Fandom|many neo-Nazis]] praised the film for depicting Hitler in a positive light, and for showing the tenacity and loyalty of the German people.
* ''[[Fahrenheit 451]]''. François Truffaut himself directed a [[The Film of the Book|film adaptation of the novel]] which is about an anti-book [[Dystopia]]. The film makes a world without written words look attractive even as our protagonist rebels against it. In fact, the book also does this to some extent, aided by an intelligent, charismatic [[Well-Intentioned Extremist]] villain.
* ''[[Fatherland]]'' shows a Europe where Germany won World War II. It is prosperous, clean and green, with posters advertising a concert with "Die Beatles" on the walls. Europe seems to be doing quite well, now without half of its economy ruined by communism. While German rule eventually falls because the American president refuses to sign a peace agreement, so that the strain from the continued war against the remnants of the Soviet Union somehow brings down the whole empire, it certainly doesn't look like a doom-and-gloom world to live in.
** Curious, because the book did a much better job of painting the Nazi Empire as place you could probably live with but would much rather be here - not East Germany, not today's world - but had a different and less black and white ending.
* ''[[Fight Club (film)|Fight Club]]'': The film was really meant to be an anti-consumerist tirade, or a condemnation of the people holding these views. But if the latter, it sure made their lifestyle seem fun and cool.
* ''[[G.I. Jane]]'' tries to make the argument that militaries should be [[Gender Is No Object|completely gender-integrated]], including allowing women into spec -ops. While it doesn't glorify sexism, it does manage to make completely the opposite point and show exactly why militaries arewere not ready for this during what is arguably the film's most powerful scene; - the POW training scene. Lt. O'Neil is being [[Would Hit a Girl|brutally beaten up]] by [[Drill Sergeant Nasty|Master Chief Urgayle]] in [[Forced to Watch|front of the other trainees]] to [[Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique|get information]] from them, and even starts to cut off her pants as if he's about to [[Rape as Drama|rape her]]. O'Neil bravely refuses to break and demands that her comrades do not either. The problem? During this scene, the other trainees are clearly about to crack and start giving out information, and look at and make comments to Argyle like he's a real prick, (while commenting as much) - yet, as he points out, he is saving their lives. This is just an exercise, so there are great limits as to what Argyle is allowed to do. If this scenario was real, a female spec ops troop would be used in the same way, and there would be no limits as to what her captors would be allowed to do, and they would probably not hesitate to do even more brutal things to her, including raping her, most likely causing the male troops to crack, give out vital info, and subsequently be killed themselves.
* ''[[Heat]]''. The actions of the criminals are proposed as the reason the Bankbank robbers fought to the death during the North Hollywood Bank Robbery in 1997, rather than escaping.
* ''[[I Spit on Your Grave]]''. All those extended rape sequences, just to say that [[Captain Obvious Aesop|rape is bad]]? [[Roger Ebert]] noted to his horror that some of the audience members at the screening he attended actually cheered on the rapists.
* ''[[Jurassic Park]]''. The novel was intended as a warning about the dangers of playing God and tampering with nature. But let's face it. When it was adapted to film, thanks to improved special effects of the time and an epic score from [[John Williams]], how many people walked out of the theater after seeing it thinking, "Awesome! I wish we could bring dinosaurs back to life! Get cracking, scientists. [[FoxTrot|Increase dinosaur DNA research!]]"
* ''[[Kidulthood]]'':. theThe scene where Trife and his friends get revenge on school bully Sam is a favorite with fans of the film, who often comment how cool what they do is, despite their actions leading to {{spoiler|TrifesTrife's death}}.
* ''[[Lolita]]'': While the novel suffers plenty of its own issues with this trope (see the entry for it below under Literature), the two film versions also end up hurting its message. It's intended to be a condemnation of pedophilia, with Dolores being 12 years old in the novel. However, in both of the film versions her age is raised to 14, which was to lessen the potential heat from the censors and the [[Moral Guardians]], - a move supported by the novel's author, Vladimir Nabokov, who said "To make a real 12-year-old play such a part in public would be sinful and immoral". While the age difference may seem small, it can end up making a huge difference in the minds of the audience. The line between pedophilia and [[Ephebophile|ephebophilia]] is a very thin one, yet the age of 13 is typically considered that line. While someone may still consider ephebophilia to be sick and wrong, they may consider it to be just a ''little less wrong'' than pedophilia, and this move certainly sends that message.
** It didn't help that the actress in the first movie looked about 16, and that the second Lolita ''was'' 16, which is a rather common age to start having sexual relationships. These days, the abusive relationship between Humbert Humbert and Lolita's mother in Kubrick's movie appears to many far more disturbing to many than even the ephebophilia.
* The first ''[[Mad Max]]'' film was meant to depict the dangers of reckless driving. The hoons and rev-heads who saw it left feeling that their lifestyle had been legitimised.
* ''[[Natural Born Killers]]'', which has been accused of having inspired enough copycats to have an [[wikipedia:List of Natural Born Killers copycat crimes|entire Wikipedia page devoted to the subject]].
** That isn't entirely a straight example though, since the aim of the movie was to point out that the media is fascinated with serial killers. That it ended up contributing to said media isn't unexpected.
* ''[[RoboCop]]'', another film of [[Paul Verhoeven]], suffers from this, much like his film, ''[[Starship Troopers (film)|Starship Troopers]]'' (listed above under Films-War), and like the latter, also on account of [[Poe's Law]]. Verhoeven intended the film as a spoof of 80s action films and the factors frequently found in them; gore, violence, fascist tendencies, mindless consumerism, and shameless pandering. However, he ended up creating a film [[Springtime for Hitler|considered one of the best action movies ever]].
* The novel ''[[The Running Man (novel)|The Running Man]]'' was intended as a warning as to what happens when society goes too far in thinking that violence is entertainment. The nation's most popular show is one where contestants compete for their lives and can be killed legally, live on television nationwide. Yet, in [[The Running Man (film)|the film version]], it ends up making this evil show look pretty damn cool and entertaining. A show where [[Arnold Schwarzenegger]] takes on gladiators trying to kill him? Sounds awesome. It's also hurt by how, in the novel, all the contestants are volunteers who willingly choose to be on the show, whereas in the movie, the "contestants" are criminals who are forced to be on the show, and the show is advertised as giving them "exactly what they deserve",. which while in the movie,While the audience knows they ''aren't'' deserving of, the idea of this show being real and using criminals who are [[Complete Monster|complete monsters]] who actually [[Asshole Victim|do deserve it]] can certainly come off as appealing.
** The German movie, ''Das Millionenspiel'', based on the same novel, plays this straight. The movie is made extremely realistic, featuring a known TV moderator of the time as moderator of the show and barely any unnatural camera positions. Creating an extremely convincing illusion of watching an actual show. The protagonist looks just like an average guy and so do the killers hired to stop him. In fact, when the movie aired, people phoned the channel and asked if they could be "hunters" or "hunted" in the next show. Sadly because of filming rights problems between this movie and ''The Running Man'', it's forbidden from being aired, having only been shown 4 times on German TV.
*** [[Self-Demonstrating Article|Great, now I want to see this forbidden show.]]
*** [[Sarcasm Mode|The most impressive thing about that movie is that it managed to adapt, in 1970, a novel published in 1982.]] It's actually based on [[Robert Sheckley]]'s 1958 short story ''The Prize of Peril'', and Stephen King's novel probably is, too.
* ''[[Saturday Night Fever]]'' portrays the protagonist's disco lifestyle as shallow, violent and ultimately pointless. It didn't stop millions of new fans from being drawn into disco culture after watching the movie.
* ''[[Scream (film)|Scream]]''. Director [[Wes Craven]] made the first film to kill the [[Slasher MoviesMovie|slasher genre]] once and for all, by parodying its tropes and making it impossible to take seriously anymore. [[Springtime for Hitler|Not only was it a smash hit]], it revived the slasher genre, spawned three successful sequels, and kick-started a wave of [[Post Modernism|post-modern]] teen horror films (many of which were, you guessed it, slashers) that ran for the rest of [[The Nineties]] and much of [[The Two Thousands]].
* Discussed in the 1934 film ''[[Search for Beauty]]'', in which the publishers of a health magazine, realizing that [[Sex Sells]], starts publishing steamy romance stories with "just enough morals to sneak them through the mails." Their female readers see right through the tacked-on "paying the price" endings.
* The ''[[Sex and the City]]'' movie ostensibly had a message about how we shouldn't let labels (both in the designer sense and for relationships) determine how to live life—Carrie gets married in a label-less vintage dress in the end. But the rest of the movie is a love letter to designer labels and fashions, with a practically orgiastic scene of Carrie trying on designer wedding dresses.
** U.K. Filmfilm critic [[Mark Kermode]] backedshare up oursimilar sentiments in his podcast review of this movie.
{{quote|"The film has the gall to shove handbags down your throat for 120 minutes and then turn around and say "Hey, we aren't just handbags, you know."}}
* ''[[The Stepford Wives]]'' remake was obviously aiming for the message that the men were in the wrong for replacing their wives with robots, but the three main characters are utterly horrible human beings. Joanna is a [[Corrupt Corporate Executive]] who could care less about the welfare of her own family, Bobbie is a moody [[Deadpan Snarker]] who can't speak a civil word to anyone and demeans her husband all the time, and Roger is an over the top [[Camp Gay]] stereotype who embarrasses his partner in public constantly. So with three unlikable characters the movie seems to be saying "hey, we replaced three bad people with nicer robots". Plus add in the ATM wife and [[Breast Expansion|the re-sizable boobs]], and the movie seems to be suggesting how cool it would be to have robot spouses.
* ''[[Super Size Me]]''., Morgan Spurlock's documentary exposing the evils of junk food ... Mmmm, burgers.
** The first supersized meal was rather unappealing though, between a large hair found in the parfait and Spurlock vomiting spectacularly as he tried to force down the burger. Semi-lampshaded, too: When describing the rules of his experiment (summary: nothing but [[McDonald's]], and always supersized if the cashier asks), he even describes it as "every eight-year-old's dream".
*** Semi-lampshaded, too: When describing the rules of his experiment (summary: nothing but [[McDonald's]], and always supersized if the cashier asks), he even describes it as "every eight-year-old's dream".
* The ''[[Terminator]]'' series was intended as a warning that technology will eventually destroy humanity. While it does if a good job of showing a future [[Crapsack World]], the problem comes with the robots who cause the apocalypse and want to wipe out humanity. They're ''AWESOME''. The T-800's, T-1000's, TX's, HK's, and others; ask someone if they think it would be cool if these existed in real life or if they want their own. What do you think their response will be?
* Some critics believe there's one thing worse than a [[Torture Porn]] film - a film that tries to make a ''point'' about torture porn by focusing on long, drawn-out, salacious shots of human suffering, such as ''[[Funny Games]]'' or ''[[Untraceable]]''. "Oh, Jesus, look upon the sensationalization of violence and despair, ''here have a man being boiled to death in battery acid.''"
* Parodied in regards to various drugs in ''[[Walk Hard]]''. Dewey frequently opens a door to find Sam behind it, indulging in some illicit narcotics in the company of some beautiful women. Sam always insists that Dewey wants no part of it, only to then insistently list all the benefits of doing that particular drug. Dewey inevitably ends up hooked on it. But he really ''doesn't'' want none of that stuff that gives you a boner.
** "It's marijuana, Dewey. You don't want no part of this shit." "It's cocaine, Dewey. You don't want no part of this shit." "We're doing pills-- uppers and downers. It's the logical next step for you." "I want me some of that shit!"
** But he really ''doesn't'' want none of that stuff that gives you a boner.
** "It's marijuana, Dewey. You don't want no part of this shit." "It's cocaine, Dewey. You don't want no part of this shit." "We're doing pills-- uppers and downers. It's the logical next step for you.""I want me some of that shit!"
* [[Pink Floyd]]'s [[Rock Opera]] ''[[The Wall]]'', both in movie and in music form, depicts an unstable rock star named "Pink" who builds a metaphorical wall around himself to defend himself against things that emotionally hurt him. He then becomes insane, delusional, "comfortably numb" and consumed with anger and fear as he gradually cuts himself from society. Onstage, he turns his concert into an almost [[Those Wacky Nazis|Neo-Nazi]] rally, leading his "Hammers" to destroy the city and terrorize all those that Pink mistrusts. Although this is meant to show the horrors of shutting yourself off from the world and becoming antisocial and paranoid, many true Neo-Nazi groups were formed around the "Hammers", based on the film [[The Wall]] and Gerald Scarfe's [[Deranged Animation]] depicting literal marching hammers smashing things and people to pieces.
** Further [[Misaimed Fandom]] involves interpretations of Pink's frustrations with women, particularly Pink's unfaithful wife, which is depicted in the animations as shrewish and snake-like.
* ''[[Shoot'Em Up (film)|Shoot 'Em Up]]'', a 2007 action film, could be easily be the [[Trope Codifier]], since it is possibly the most [[Egregious]] example of this. The film is both a [[Parody]] of the [[Gun Porn|genre it takes its name from]], and by [[Word of God]], an anti-gun movie; - an ''extremely'' [[Anvilicious]] one, that stops just short of pulling a ''[[Family Guy]]'' and saying that [[Compensating for Something|everyone with a gun has a tiny, tiny penis]]. Except, like the [[Broken Aesop]] page quote, the hero, Smith, solves every single problem he's faced with ''using guns'';: savingSaving the baby? Guns. Beating the bad guys? Guns. Defending his new family? Guns. By itself, [[Acceptable Breaks From Reality|this wouldn't be too bad]]. After all, someone can be extremely anti-gun, but still believe a gun can be used for good if in the right hands, or that using one in self defense is still justified. However, the movie takes it [[Up to Eleven]] in several ways, and if it's meant to turn its viewers off of guns, it fails in levels equivalent to trying to put an abstinence message into a porn movie.
*# The whole reason the movie is anti-gun is because of who it's villains are; they're the hired muscle (led by a [[Large Ham|wonderfully hammy]] Paul Giamatti) for a gun manufacturing corporation that wants to stop gun control laws from getting passed. Again, not too bad by itself. After all, that's what corporations do; use politics to protect their interests. Except they resort to [[Complete Monster]] lengths and cross the [[Moral Event Horizon]] including killing [[Would Hit a Girl|pregnant women]] and [[Would Hurt a Child|babies]] and making statements that are [[Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped|anything but subtle]] in regards to guns such "Guns don't kill people, but they sure help".
*# Don't think saying "Smith solves every single problem he's face with using guns is an exaggeration. It means just that; Smith solves '''[[Exactly What It Says on the Tin|every. single. problem]]''' he's faced with using guns; not just for self defense and beating the bad guys; he also uses guns for common everyday activities like opening beer cans and spinning a merry-go-round. Oh, and not just guns; ''[[There Is No Kill Like Overkill|lots and lots of guns]]. Lots and lots of ''[[More Dakka|extremely powerful guns]]''. For an anti-gun movie, Smith and everyone he cares about sure would be dead a lot of times over if he weren't better-armed than the Russian military.
* The ''[[Hunger Games]]'' movies; - the books themselves already had a sizable [[Misaimed Fandom]] of teenagers who think it would be ''so cool'' to fight in the Hunger Games. (Andand who hated ''[[Mockingjay]]''.). Like an anti-war movie, Suzanne Collins' work carries a message against something that is a dreadful, scarring experience yet deeply visually compelling on-screen. (That- while that's kind of the whole point... but, putting it into a visual medium couldcan undermine it ''hard''.)
 
== Literature ==
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** ''Get the Gimmies'', where we all genuinely ''wanted'' those toys, games, and candies that Brother and Sister acted like hellions in public in order to get.
** ''The Trouble With Junk Food''. All the candy they learned was bad for you was so colorful!
* ''[[Slaughterhouse-Five]]''. In-universe.discusses Discussedthis early on. in-universe - Vonnegut's war buddy's wife is pissed that our narrator is writing 'another war book'.
{{quote|"You were just babies then. But you won't write it like that, will you? You'll write it like you were men, and you'll be played by men in the movie, and everyone will think it's wonderful and have more wars and send more babies off to die, like those babies [their children] upstairs."}}
*:* It works out OK, though., as Hehe promises her that it will be called [[Title Drop|''Slaughterhouse-Five, or The Children's Crusade'' (which is indeed the full title of the book)]], and no one reading it getsshould get any idea that war is good:
{{quote|"I have told my sons that they are not under any circumstances to take part in massacres, and that the news of massacres of enemies is not to fill them with satisfaction or glee. I have also told them not to work for companies which make massacre machinery, and to express contempt for people who think we need machinery like that."}}
* The scenes of sinful revelry and luxury (like the island of Acrasia) in ''[[The Faerie Queene]]'' are, to many, the most appealing parts of the work. This is largely due to [[Values Dissonance]].
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* The entirety of the ''[[Warhammer 40,000]]'' Black Library manages to both embody and avoid this trope. On the one hand, the wars depicted are brutal and utterly hellish, the enemies often terrifyingly twisted and sadistic, conditions are generally miserable, and the heroes are surrounded by murderers, thieves and other lowlifes - often in the form of a superior officer or the protagonist himself; but on the other hand, every novel has the hero and his band of fellow soldiers being epic [[Badass|BAMFs]] and generally acting like the epitome of what a soldier should be.
** This can even be seen in stories where the protagonists are actually the bad guys in the wider 'verse, such as the Chaos Marines. You find yourself rooting for the protagonist even as the story tells you about the world of innocent humans that their race has invaded, enslaved, tortured or brutally slaughtered.
* One of Disney's kiddie books featured [[Donald Duck]] eating a poorly balanced, junk-filled meal... that the mouth waters just in childhood memory of it.{{context}}
* [[John Milton]]'s ''[[Paradise Lost]]'' has infamously run into this problem with its [[Misaimed Fandom]]. [[Satan]] ''is'' intended to be appealing, but Milton expects his readers will be mature enough to realize that underneath all his charisma, Satan is a small-minded, [[Parental Incest|incestuous]] bully who picks on [[Puny Earthlings|people smaller than him]] because he lost the fight against [[Kung Fu Jesus|someone bigger than him]]. Sadly, Milton expected too much of his readers, and a lot of them just drool over Satan and think he's [[The Hero]].
** This is parodied in [[National Lampoon]]'s ''[[Animal House]]'' in a scene where Professor Jennings ([[Donald Sutherland]]) is discussing the poem with his students, talks about how appealing Satan comes off as, and asks, "Is it possible that Milton was trying to tell us that being bad is more fun than being good?", and then proceeds to [[The Bible|take a bite]] out of [[Forbidden Fruit|out of an apple]].
** Averted in that most modern literature classes looking at ''[[Paradise Lost]]'' include Byron's argument that Satan is a hero because as an ex-angel, he knows that he will lose against God, but fights him anyway. Satan is thus seen as the hero because [[Determinator|he's fighting a hopeless fight becauseout heof disgust findsat God's desire to keep mankind ignorant and mortal as immoral]].
* [[K. J. Parker]]'s works in general, with particular attention to ''[[The Scavenger Trilogy|Scavenger Trilogy]]'' and Parker's work generally. There's just so much detail and vivid fightin' action that the anti-violence message can be obscured at times.
* The first series of ''[[Warrior Cats]]'' covers the early life of a "kittypet" as he struggles to fit into his Clan, overcoming all of the racism and prejudice he faces because of his background as he grows into a hero. Of course, in order for this to work, the majority of the cast has to express some racist sentiments, meaning a lot of the more popular characters twist this lesson into "[[Misaimed Fandom|racism is good]]".
** The same could be said for the battles, which, combined with their irrational hatred for a pacifist character, doesn't just inspire reactions of "War is cool and pacifism is for [[Incredibly Lame Pun|pussies]]", but the occasional "Any book that doesn't contain as many gratuitous fight scenes as possible instantly sucks". The latter lesson can probably be connected to their love of ''The Darkest Hour'', the most violent book in the series - it is indeed also one of the best, but not for those reasons.
*** The latter lesson can probably be connected to their love of ''The Darkest Hour'', the most violent book in the series. It is indeed one of the best books in the series, but not because it's the most violent.
* ''[[Lolita]].'' Oh dear lord, ''Lolita.'' The whole book is one big condemnation of pedophilia (even the pedophile, narrator Humbert, [[You Are What You Hate|can't stand his actions]]), and yet it's a [[Trope Namer]] for [[Lolicon|a fetish for underage girls.]] This is because Humbert is [[Unintentionally Sympathetic]] and is probably the accidental [[Trope Codifier]] for [[Lolicon]]. Humbert comes off as a completely nice guy despite his despicable actions because throughout the whole book, he casually explains his actions to the reader, and while it may not be meant to justify them, [[Straw Man Has a Point|it certainly can]]. This book has a huge [[Misaimed Fandom]] among [http://www.cracked.com/article_18568_the-5-greatest-books-with-psychotic-fanbases_p2.html pedophiles and child molesters] who have undoubtedly used it, not only to justify their actions, but for tips on how to avoid getting caught (i.e., be sure not to write down your attraction for young girls and your plans for them in your diary, and if you do be sure to do a much better job of hiding it).
** Author and commentator [[John Derbyshire]], for example, has [https://web.archive.org/web/20100813002635/http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/18/pedophiliac-rape-fantasies-are-the-sign-of-a-cultivated-mind/ written enviously] about how misunderstood Humbert is, and how reading about him as a young man convinced him that it's only natural for grown men to be attracted to prepubescent girls, and darn the society that chastises them!
* In an interview celebrating the launching of his most recent{{when}} book, ''[[Imperial Bedrooms]]'', Bret Easton Ellis recounted how many fans of his work would come up to him and say "You're the guy who wrote ''[[Less Than Zero]]'', that's the book that made me want to live in L.A." Anyone who's read the book in question (or indeed anything by Ellis) will appreciate [[Misaimed Fandom|just how ridiculous this is]].
** One of his aims with ''Imperial Bedrooms'' was to respond to all the readers who perceived Clay as the hero in the first book, by emphasising far more his near-sociopathic narcissism far more. YMMV on how much it worked, although {{spoiler|Ellis certainly shows him doing some horrific things, but gives him one or two very small [[Pet the Dog]] moments.}}
* A weird borderline example in ''[[Discworld/Interesting Times|Interesting Times]]''. Rincewind describing sticking fireworks up his nose is followed by a footnote saying [[Don't Try This At Home]] ... which goes on to describe official municipal firework displays in a way that makes it clear they're very boring. Of course, [[Terry Pratchett]] is on record as saying that if stupidity kills, then it's better if it kills the stupid first,<ref>In the Mappe Of Lancre</ref> so this likely could be a stealth joke.
** Of course [[Terry Pratchett]] is on record as saying that if stupidity kills, then it's better if it kills the stupid first.<ref>In the Mappe Of Lancre</ref> This could be a stealth joke on that.
* Deliberately invoked by the entire Lesbian Pulp Erotica paperback market of the 1950s and 1960s. It was a cultural requirement that the lesbian characters end badly, either dying, getting imprisoned, or turning straight. However, the ''point'' was to sell lesbian erotica, so the "consequences" are always jammed in the last chapter, with the rest of the book glamorizing things as much as possible.
* Anthony Horvath's book ''Richard Dawkins, Anthony Flew and Mother Theresa Go To Heaven'' is supposed to make Dawkins look like an arrogant [[Jerkass]], while Flew and Theresa are supposed to be viewed as good. However, the way it's written, Theresa comes across as a pathetic sycophant and Flew like a doddering simpleton, while Dawkins sounds downright courageous and noble as he [[Defiant to the End|stands in defiance]] of this [[God Is Evil|frankly unsympathetic deity.]] It doesn't help when Heaven is depicted as a place where everyone spends the rest of eternity unable to do anything except praise God, [[Esoteric Happy Ending|and that's supposed to be desirable.]]
* Happens in-universe to a Nazi spy in ''[[The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and& Clay]]''. He starts out reporting to his superiors about a dangerous series of American comic books, but his later reports become more or less reviews of his favorite comic book series.
* In ''[[The Avatar Chronicles|Epic]]'', the [[An Aesop|Aesop]] is that you shouldn't get so involved in virtual worlds that you don't do things that need to be done in the real world. However, you can't deny that the game Epic would be ''freaking awesome'' if it were real. And the idea that doing well in video games = getting a good education and being rich is an appealing one to gamers out there.
* [[Robert Heinlein]] ''intended'' the message of ''[[Podkayne of Mars]]'' to be that parents should take better care of their children and not let them go gallivanting around the Solar System getting involved in espionage intrigues and having awesome adventures and ultimately being heroes by saving an entire planet from a villainous plot . . . because that would be wrong. Or something. Subverted in that this was a result of [[Executive Meddling]]: the original version, which his editor forced him to change before publication, has Podkayne dying a decidedly unheroic death at the end. That would logically be a tad off-putting to anyone else imagining themselves along her career path.
** That's [[Executive Meddling]]. The original version, which his editor forced him to change before publication, has Podkayne dying at the end and not heroically either. That would logically be a tad off-putting to anyone else imagining themselves along her career path.
* If ''[[The Hunger Games]]'' is meant to be a condemnation of reality TV culture... well, all the action that the in-universe audience is reveling in is the same stuff that we're enjoying as readers. We are supposed at once to feel contemptuous of the audience for lapping up the romance presented to them between Katniss and Peeta but also care about the same romance as readers. While no one at this point would wish for death-based reality TV shows (probably), there are many Hunger Games fans who would love to see a non-lethal version of the Games brought to reality.
 
== Live -Action TelevisionTV ==
* Then there is the case of ''[[24]],'' is a curious case which might have led to soldiers in [[Real Life]] being too [[Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique|violent towards prisoners]], especially the earlier seasons. Violence towards prisoners existed before, but the government originally backed this series. But when the hero routinely saves the world using questionable techniques in a glamorous fashion, when those techniquesthat rarely backfired (the one person who lied to him that we know of, he shot), and when the scandals of Guantanamo Bay Delta Camp and Abu Gharib became public during the middle of the series' run, conclusions were drawn.
* Although bigoted, Alf Garnett from ''[[Till Death Do Us Part]]'' was intended to be a figure of fun showing the stupidity of racism. He became a cult hero for misogynists and xenophobes.
** The same goes for the show's loose American remake. ''[[All in The Family]]'' was, officially, intended to show that bigotry is bad, but Archie Bunker came across as a fairly fun, likable guy in spite of it. The more progressive "Meathead" often came across as self-righteous.
* ''[[Mad Men]]'' is about deconstructing the myth of [[Nostalgia Ain't Like It Used to Be|the good ol' days]] and is supposed to be about the 'dark side' of social conformism, corporate careerism, and white male privilege in [[The Fifties|Fifties'50s]] white collar America. The show demonstrates this by endlessly displaying hot (and frequently undressed) women, acts of debauchery, plentiful alcohol, smoking without guilt, fabulous outfits, and snazzy Jet Age decor. Wait, there's a dark side to making tons of money and being able to tell people what to do?
* ''[[Life On Mars]]'', series one. The impression the viewer gets is that the first series of ''Life on Mars'' was written to paint Sam's contemporary attitudes as what the viewer was supposed to sympathise with, but the public response was overwhelmingly in favor of Gene Hunt's [[Good Old Ways]]. The second series and all of ''[[Ashes to Ashes]]'' was written accordingly.
* ''[[Buffy the Vampire Slayer]]'' had a subtle anti-smoking message for the first season or two—every character who smoked either turned out to be a villain or died soon after they were introduced. But Spike, who started out as a villain, ended up being a regular and a well-liked character... who often smoked cigarettes. Sexily. Faith took up smoking in the last season.
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** Not to mention, like the novel ''[[Lolita]]'' above, how many [[Misaimed Fandom|rapists, pedophiles and child molesters]] do you think watch this show for the purpose of drooling over the victims, getting off to the child porn shown, and getting tips for how to avoid getting caught or for their legal defense if they do get caught?
* Many fans of ''[[The Wire]]'' tend to glamorize the gangsters of the show, talking about how cool they are, when the intent of the series is to provide a realistic view of the awful effects of crime and corruption in cities such as Baltimore.
** As the good people at [[Television Without Pity|TWoP]] said in one recap, "The wages of sin are death - Butbut the perks are amazing!"
* Similarly, ''[[Breaking Bad]]'' has the same effect of showcasing the appealing aspects of the drug business, even when the bad parts are [[Paranoia Fuel|fueled with endless paranoia]], and by contributing to the business in some form or fashion, you'll hurt so many different people along the way. And oh yeah, [[Drugs Are Bad]]. But boy is it tough not to reap the rewards of selling pure meth, ain't it?
* In-universe example in ''[[Arrested Development (TV series)|Arrested Development]]'' when George Sr. is invited as a "[[Scare'Em Straight|Scared Straight]]" speaker to talk teens out of committing crimes and going to jail. He accidentally picks the wrong Scared Straight tent and ends up talking to a group of gay teens who feel increasingly hornier at the thought of being locked up in a jail full of bad boys.
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* ''[[Saturday Night Live]]'''s false ad for "Amazin' Laser" was full of this. While Chris Elliot exalted the virtues of using this precise, powerful and ridiculously powerful disintegrator ray gun, subtitles gave more and more precise instructions. "Do not use Amazin' Laser on live targets." "Terrorists, please do not use Amazin' Laser." "On second thought, please do not buy Amazin' Laser."
* On the Investigation Discovery channel, this happens often with the [[dramatization]]s of real crimes. The most egregious examples are the shows ''Sins and Secrets'', ''Wicked Attraction'', and ''Deadly Women''. They usually discuss how sick and wrong the killer(s) are, but they then show reenactments of their scandalous affairs in about as much detail as you can have on cable TV. It's so bad that some of the shows have [[Content Warnings]].
* ''[[The Winds of War and War and Remembrance‎|The Winds of War/War and Remembrance]]'' miniseries is a [[Zig-Zagging Trope|zig-zag]]. It actually does make war seem kind of, well, cool at times. But the Nazis are made so creepy that the only ones who could possibly want to be Nazis ''are-'' Nazis.
** On the one hand, the [[Consummate Professional|sheer efficiency]] of Auschwitz can make someone weirdly admire it before he catches himself. And the Nazis sometimes do look rather like ordinary people. On the other hand, they do not just sadistic, but just, well,straight up uncoolfucked-up things, like bullying old men, threatening to tear a baby in half in front of his mother., Andand so on. Not to mention [[Adolf Hitler]] himself who looks more and more like a witless idiot as the series goes on (the show does a "splendid" Hitler). So yeah, while the show does sometimes say war is cool (the avoiding of which was not a particular intention anyway), it succeeds in making it clear that being a Nazi is not cool.
 
== Music ==
* Anti-war songs are just as susceptible to this as anti-war films. The message of the song may be about the awful aspects of war, but it may have either too subtle of a title or a catchy, positive or cool sounding beat, as well as [[Lyrical Dissonance]] to keep it from getting its message across. This goes double if it's a popular song that many of the listeners only know the chorus too without knowing any other of the lyrics, often leading to cases of [[Isn't It Ironic?]].
** Edwin Starr's "War". The lyrics denounce the act of war quite [[anvilicious]]ly, but it sounds like a good song to kick ass to. It was used for fight scenes in ''[[Rush Hour]]'', ''[[Small Soldiers]]'', and ''Agent Cody Banks 2''.
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* Gangsta Rap. What was said above re: gangsters in film & television goes double for many gangsta-rap music videos. Even when the lyrics are explicitly about the dangers and harshness of street life, expect the videos to be full of images of diamond studded cars, gold jewelry everywhere, beautiful women, and champagne overflowing.
** MTV and other "music" channels refuse to show any video with gunplay or shooting imagery regardless of context. This was particularly notable in the 1990s during the genre's rise to prominence (since they were airing more videos then).
*** This trope is deliberately invoked in Juvenile's song "Ha". The lyrics are a [[Take That]] against the glamour of rap excess (the chorus says, "You're a paper chaser, you got your block on fire, remaining a G until the moment you expire"), and in the video itself, the scenes are of poor and near-homeless residents living in housing projects in New Orleans... except during the chorus, when Juvenile and his crew visibly sing in front of expensive cars, stacks of money and visible jewellery.
*** [[Atmosphere]] has written a few songs attempting to address this issue too, including "Apple" which has a repeated refrain of "Just cause you're an MC doesn't mean you get to be an asshole" and "National Disgrace" which begins with the following dedication:
{{quote|Peace to Rick James, Anna Nicole Smith, [[Bill Clinton]] and Motley Crue, and anyone else who has ever utilised their 15 minutes of fame to realise their true dreams of being an absolute jerk-off, just to keep the masses entertained. This goes out to learning from the mistakes of others.}}
* Scavanger. Used for [[Black Comedy]] effect in ''[https://web.archive.org/web/20100520080950/http://www.jamendo.com/en/track/539623 Assassins of Ankh Morpork]''. "[[Discworld|Here]] in [[Wretched Hive|Ankh Morpork]] they’re saint", indeed.
* [[Visual Kei]] as a genre has this problem: the point of the genre is artistic freedom and using shock value to express your artistic message. Except a large percentage of the fans, looking at the beautifully stylized bandmen, seem to be convinced that to be truly [[Visual Kei]], one must be as pretty as they are - thoroughly breaking at least one of the major [[aesop]]s in a belief that art is only for the beautiful and sexy. The second problem, especially with Eroguro Kei, is the [[Misaimed Fandom]] factor - people that don't get that some of this stuff is meant to shock and disgust, not glorify. Which can be a very big [[Unfortunate Implications]] minefield with, say, the [[Gazett E]]'s Taion, which is meant to be a condemnation of rape and a lashout at the Japanese society for allowing such a rape to happen. When people start ''singing along,'' though... [[Squick]].
 
== Stand-Up Comedy ==
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{{quote|'''MacDonald:''' My doctor tried to scare me out of smoking. He showed me a picture of a smoker's lung. Oh! It was gross and disgusting. Then he showed me a picture of a healthy person's lung. Oh! It was gross and disgusting!}}
 
== Tabletop Games ==
 
== Tabletop Games ==
* ''[[Warhammer 40,000]]''. Orignally intended as a ''parody'' of [[Darker and Edgier]], the fans latched onto those aspects with such fervour the creators decided [[Sure Why Not]] and magnified those aspects until a new word (GRIMDARK) was invented to describe the result. Then, in typical ''WH40K'' fashion, [[It Got Worse]] when despite [[Evil Versus Evil|all factions being firmly established as thoroughly evil]], the "Good" factions only so in comparison to their even more horrific enemies, there exist genuine supporters of almost everyone due to taking various elements of the fluff (at best heavy on the [[Unreliable Narrator]] and more commonly ''in-universe propaganda'') completely seriously.
** The two most glaring examples have to be the Space Marines and the Imperial Guard. To whit: the Space Marines are made up of (depending on the edition) everything from volunteers to inducted ''death row inmates'',; go through so much genetic, cybernetic and hypnotic conditioning that it's argued about whether or not they're even still considered human,; they'reare conditioned to be unwaveringly loyal but at even more so to literally not feel fear or ever give up, so if they do something questionable they will ''go rogue and declare war on the entire Imperium'' rather than submit to due process,; and for about 98% of the chapters out there, the average Imperial citizens, members of other military branches, - hell, even members of other Space Marine Chapters, - consist at best of an excuse to always be at war and at worse a ''burden, distracting them from killing everything'' to which collateral damage isn't even a statistic to be counted; the [[We Have Reserves|Imperial Guard]] teaches you from day one that not only are you expendable, but you ''will'' die in service and your mission is to make your death ''mean'' something,. itIt's [[Honor Before Reason|better to follow an order and die horribly]] than disobey an order and avert ''utter catastrophe'' (for which more than one hero who has saved an entire planet has been summarily executed), and if you have a choice between saving a dozen wounded squadmates and bringing back one piece of semi-arcane technology, you are ''legally obliged'' to leave them to their fates to save the tech.
** Then there's the Tau, an animesque culture whose army is based off of [[BFG]]s and [[Humongous Mecha]]. Their melee combatants are an allied race of brutal but more-or-less [[Noble Savage]]s. They were introduced ''specifically'' because of an outcry that there were no good factions, only visibly horribly evil and implicitly horribly evil. ''They were the Good Guys.'' Then the rest of the fandom cried out they were ''too'' good, so now there are more and more hints that the Ethereals [[Mind Control|have pheromone-based hypnotic control over the entire Tau culture]], the assimilated human worlds are usually subjected to internment camps and forced sterility, and the fact that they have next-to-no warp signature implies there may be something even ''more'' horrific about them, though we just don't know yet.
 
== Theater ==
* In ''[[Wicked (theatre)|Wicked]]'', the "Dancing Through Life" song is ''meant'' to paint the singer as having the wrong idea about life in general; but it also seems to go out of its way to make his philosophy sound appealing.
** 'Dancing through Life' can be seen as a song about always and unconditionally being in the moment, rather than thinking about the future.
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** Dane Vogel also suffers from this. He's cool, manipulative, wealthy, spends most of the game in complete control of the situation, and his plan would have solved Stilwater's gang problem. The fact that he's a ruthless, self-serving [[Corrupt Corporate Executive]] who simply wants profit and is out to crush anyone in his way to get it—especially the poor and disenfranchised—and that his plan to eliminate the gangs involved making things much, much worse before they got better tends to be forgotten because he's ''awesome''.
* ''[[Armored Core]]'' has you play as a mercenary mech pilot who works for all the wrong reasons (money and being the strongest). The earlier games tend to end fairly positively, but it's pointed out repeatedly most Ravens do not give a damn about how much carnage they cause on the job. Just because your client is an evil [[Mega Corp]] doesn't excuse you from responsibility. In Nexus, your final mission results in millions of suicide robots devastating the planet. In 4, the mecha are [[Walking Wasteland]]s and are ruining the world, and in 4A, you've got the option of killing ''millions'' as one mission. Despite that, piloting a mech is goddamn fun, and you're only ever called out on your actions once,<ref>kill those millions and you earn yourself a fight against your [[Mission Control]], the [[Big Bad]], the Dragon, and your [[Worthy Opponent]]. They hate you ''that'' much.</ref> In other words: That coworker you just murdered? What was his name again? His bounty earned you money for new parts for your infinitely customizable robot. Yay!
* ''[[Cooking Mama]], The Unauthorized PETA Edition'' shows Mama brutally killing and gruesomely preparing a turkey with cartoonish graphics. Game developer [http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/11/26/cooking-mama-the-unauthorized-peta-edition-mama-kills-animals-petaorg/ Raph Koster explains] that his kids found it gleeful fun.
** Even Nintendo apparently found it amusing, given that their response was to ''have Cooking Mama herself put out a press release complaining about it''. It's like they said to themselves, "Nobody's going to get their message from it, we aren't going to worry."
* ''[[Wings (video game)|Wings]]'' arguably subverts this; the game ''does'' use [[World War I]] for entertainment, but is stated to be dedicated to those who died in it, and also calls attention to the foolishness of various aspects of it.
* ''[[Fable III]]'' has a morality system like the others. The system completely breaks when you are forced to raise funds to save civilians. The kingdom has 6.5 million people and they can be saved at the cost of one gold each (convenient). So that means if you give 10 gold to a beggar it is a morally good act but if you put it into saving 10 lives it is morally neutral. The biggest problem comes when you can choose to build a brothel. The net profit will same 1.5 million people but it is considered immoral. Why is this relevant here? Because every load screen shows you the projected casualties. Saving a community of hippies or 300 000 peoples lives? The whole section teaches that being a tyrant is the way to save your people... well that or buy every property in the kingdom and rent them out which could be argued is also a form of economic tyranny.
* In ''[[Pokémon]]'', both the games and the [[Pokémon (anime)|anime]], treating Pokémon as tools is "wrong". The evil teams and the rivals all lose because they treated their Pokémon bad, you won because you WUUUUUV them. Except the best strategy is to dump all the crappy Pokémon you catch into the PC forever and push the ones you keep in your party to their limits. Sure, they get sad if they faint and they get happy if you use Potions on them... but Happiness is a mostly useless stat and unless you horribly suck as a trainer they will simply be happy enough as time passes. The "best" competitive players even [[Tyke Bomb|breed new Pokémon to raise as weapons from the day they're hatched]]. (And throw the parents forever into the PC.)
** [[Invoked Trope|Invoked]] in ''[[Pokémon Black and White]]'' by the bad guys, [[Animal Wrongs Group|Team Plasma]]. [[Subverted Trope|Subverted]] in that only one of the members, [[Anti-Villain|N]], actually believes in this; when he does fight you, he only uses Pokemon that can be found in the immediate area, and [[Pet the Dog|lets them go after he's done]]. By contrast, one of the first appearances of Plasma's [[Mook|grunts]] is [[Kick the Dog|kicking a Munna]], and their true leader, [[Complete Monster|Ghetsis]], simply wants people and Pokemon separated so he can conquer Unova.
* One of the main points of ''Ryoujoku Guerilla Gari'' (''Suck My Dick Or Die!'' in the English release) is that Lt. Prosper is an evil person for abusing his position and authority to rape women, and that in his bad end, Haresu is just as evil for buying into Prosper's lies. The problem is that, as an [[Eroge]], the sex scenes are a big part of the draw, and the most extreme ones are the rape scenes from Prosper's perspective and Haresu's bad end...so, "join the army, meet interesting women, and rape the hell out of them"?
 
== Web Comics ==
* ''[[Gunnerkrigg Court]]'' [[Played for Laughs|Gleefullygleefully]] usedruns with it. [http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=396 Just look] at those efficiently designed, finely crafted, aesthetically appealing savage tools of destruction... Tea in her fencing suit and wide smile objects to your [[I Like Swords|unhealthy fascination with swords]]! ThoughIt italso doubles as foreshadowing, as later "enjoy, but don't forget what it's about" became a good plot point.
* ''Quitting Time'' presents: [https://web.archive.org/web/20150410032635/http://quitting-time.com/2009/02/04/customer-of-the-week-pure-evil/ Pure Evil].
* Invoked in [https://web.archive.org/web/20140109050010/http://somethingpositive.net/sp08312004.shtml this] ''[[Something*Positive]]'' with Davan's response to a gang of ''[[Rocky Horror]]'' fans protesting a stage-play adaptation of ''[[Shock Treatment]]''. "Think of every movie or video game someone else protested that you immediately went to check out. Now you're doing that for us."
* Jason Love. "[https://web.archive.org/web/20150410032759/http://www.jasonlove.com/cartoons/00003-funny-cartoons-movies.gif Warning]" from Jason Love's cartoons.
* ''[[Questionable Content]]'' [//questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2281 on] [[Artificial Limbs]]:
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== Western Animation ==
* ''[[Beavis and Butthead]]''. Spoofedspoof inthisin the Season 4 episode, "Safe Driving". The boys watch a grisly driver's-ed film featuring two guys who coincidentally seem to be grown-up versions of themselves. Naturally, they think it's cool and get into the same accident seconds after taking the wheel.
* ''[[Futurama]]'' spoofedprovides this.the page quote, said by Bender didduring a return-from-commercial gag wherein hethe statedepisode the"Bender showShould doesNot notBe supportAllowed theon Television"cool, crimewhich ofparodies robberythe concept to hell and back."
{{quote|'''Bender (on TV, while lighting himself on fire)''': Try this, kids at home!
'''(on-screen subtitles)''': Don't try this, kids at home. }}
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** Made even funnier because *everybody* who saw the film immediately tried to put marbles up their nose, even the teacher and Brendon's mom.
** There's a similar situation in ''Little Men'' where Jo tells the children a story about a mother who warned her children not stick beans up their noses, prompting them to do just that. Jo says she stuck pebbles up her nose after hearing the story.
* ''[[The Powerpuff Girls]]'' parodied this in the episode of "Mojo Jonesin',", where the mad genius chimp Mojo tempts a group of children with bootleg Chemical X which grants them superpowers. The first dose was free, but to continue their addiction, they have to follow his orders. It's an obvious send-up of a don't-do-drugs episode complete with an ending when the kids decide to give up Chemical X and warn their classmates against "X abuse." Then another kid asks what it was like. "It was ''awesome''!"
* ''[[The Simpsons]]'' directly [[Spoof Aesop|spoofed]] this trope: Lisa is shown a short film where rap stars in costume represent tooth decay: as they stylishly and violently set about some giant teeth, rapping all the while. Lisa comments that while the film is against tooth decay it, also kinda glamorises it.
** Also parodied when Bart's class is shown a sex-ed video. "So now that we've shown you how it's done... ''don't do it''."
** In the episode where Bart is working for the Mafia and leaves at the end: "Sorry Fat Tony, I've learned that crime doesn't pay". Fat Tony replies "Yeah, maybe you're right" and then leaves in an expensive limo filled with women. His henchmen have their own limos.
* ''[[South Park]]'' has several in-universe examples:
* ''[[South Park]]'' Another in-fiction example: In the episode "Pinkeye," when Mrs. Cartman sends her son to school dressed as [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]], the principal shows him an educational film to [[Scare'Em Straight|scare him straight]]. However, the film consists solely of the message "Adolf Hitler was a very, very naughty man," followed by (untranslated) clips of his speeches and goose-stepping, saluting Nazis. There's no mention of anything evil he actually did. Cartman thinks the movie is "cool", to the point of seeing himself in place of Hitler in the video, and asks to see it again.
** In the episode "Pinkeye," when Mrs. Cartman sends her son to school dressed as [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]], the principal shows him an educational film to [[Scare'Em Straight|scare him straight]]. However, the film consists solely of the message "Adolf Hitler was a very, very naughty man," followed by (untranslated) clips of his speeches and goose-stepping, saluting Nazis. There's no mention of anything evil he actually did. Cartman thinks the movie is "cool", to the point of seeing himself in place of Hitler in the video, and asks to see it again. However, given [[Complete Monster|Cartman's]] stated antisemitism, he'd probably have thought it was even cooler had it been translated.
** "Major Boobage": "Schoolchildren are often experimenting with dangerous ways to get high, like sniffing glue, or huffing paint, but they're all bad, m'kay...male cats, when they're marking their territory spray a concentrated urine to fend off other male cats, and that can get you really high...like really, really, high...probably shouldn't have told you that just now, m'kay? That was probably bad."
** "Butt Out" also parodied this but in the opposite way. An overly upbeat anti-smoking group called Butt Out, which incorporates elements of terrible dance and hip-hop into its routine, performs at the school. All the students think it's really lame and disturbing. At the end, Butt Out enthusiastically calls out "If you don't smoke, you can grow up to be [[Nerd|just like us]]!" Directly after they say this, the boys start frantically smoking.
** In "Sexual Healing," some of the kids ask what autoerotic asphyxiation is. The man they ask says he doesn't want to give them any ideas...but then describes it in detail, adding that it supposedly feels "really, ''really'' awesome." Three guesses how [[They Killed Kenny|Kenny died]] in that episode.
** "Kick A Ginger Day" is ''not'' something that should ever have been [[Defictionalized]]!
* ''[[The Iron Giant]]'' tries to present the message that the use of weapons of mass destruction is wrong, and in fact, it was the [[Trope Namer]] for [[I Am Not a Gun]]. Problem is, when you represent weapons of mass destruction bywith a [[Humongous Mecha]], it's hard not to make them look cool. - though it ''is'' helped in that the movie is never anti-[[Humongous Mecha]], just anti-using them as guns (hence the [[Trope Namer]])
** Though it ''is'' helped in that the movie is never anti-[[Humongous Mecha]], just using them as guns. Hence the [[Trope Namer]].
* Parodied on ''[[Archer]]'', with marijuana:
{{quote|'''[[Archer]]''': And I advocate its use. As a potential role model, I advocate it. }}
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== Real Life ==
* There was a case where some cops took some pictures of an accident scene and, without the family's consent, started showing them to kids, apparently wanting to [[Scare'Em Straight]]. Instead, the kids thought they were cool and posted them on the internet. The family's attempts to get them taken them down have simply invoked the [[Streisand Effect]].
* Abstinence programs tend to fall prey to this as a result of trying to balance out the message of how evil and dirty pre-marital sex is with how great and wonderful sex is once you're married. Part of the problem is attributable to excessive idealism - the "abstinence until marriage" preaching, when unmarried sex is the norm, creates an issue in causing teens to think "this is BS, everyone has sex", and such programs also refuse to teach safe sex as well.
* During the [[Cold War]], several Eastern European [[La Résistance|resistance groups]] didinvoked this intentionally during the 60's to avoid government censorship. Instead of releasing propaganda directly, they distributed newspapers describing the treasonous publications [[Dirty Communists|their fine leaders]] had put down, refuted, or nipped in the bud. Of course, those publications were described in ''excruciating'' detail.
** Part of the problem is that the "abstinence until marriage" preaching, when unmarried sex is the norm creates an issue in that teens think "this is BS, everyone has sex" and these programs also refuse to teach safe sex. Abstinence programs are too idealistic in their goals.
* During the [[Cold War]], several Eastern European [[La Résistance|resistance groups]] did this intentionally during the 60's to avoid government censorship. Instead of releasing propaganda directly, they distributed newspapers describing the treasonous publications [[Dirty Communists|their fine leaders]] had put down, refuted, or nipped in the bud. Of course, those publications were described in ''excruciating'' detail.
* [[Content Warnings]] can have this effect. They're supposed to serve as warnings to parents about what's appropriate for kids, but it's impossible to stop the kids from seeing them, and all they think is, "If I'm not supposed to be exposed to it then [[Forbidden Fruit|it must be totally awesome]]." Indeed, back in [[The Nineties]] when the Parental Advisory warning on CDs was just becoming well-known, TV advertisements for rap albums would proudly flash the "Tipper Sticker" as a point of pride, and [[George Carlin]] even recorded an album ''titled'' ''Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics''.<ref>Although this was more to ''mock'' the [[Moral Guardians]]'' than exploit them.</ref>
** This is also why the X rating in movies got changed to the less marketable (and ''trademarked'') NC-17.
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** Combine this with the explosion in the last few decades of cheap, fattening, nutrient-free junk food, and you have, for the first time in history, a situation where the poor are fatter than the rich on average. Indeed, many health workers in the developing world hae witnessed cases of people who are simultaneously obese and malnourished because of just how awful the local diets have gotten.
* This trope can explain a part on why negative peer pressure is so prevalent.
* In '''The Western Way of War''', Victor Davis Hanson goes to extensive effort telling about how unpleasant hoplite warfare was, including describing rather gross physical reactions to fear in the bodily functions. He also says blatantly that the only reason they did it at all was to get the season's fighting over, get back to their farms quickly, and avoid being ground into another [[Aristocrats Are Evil|nobleman's protection racket.]] He still can't avoid giving the impression that ten thousand angry farmers smashing into each other over a few scraps of dirt just sounds [[Cool Versus Awesome|awesome]].
* It's against the law to drive while intoxicated in [[Canada]]... but [http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/beer-road-signs-new-brunswick-1.4495818 New Brunswick has government-installed highway off-ramp signs directing people to microbreweries], and Ontario has government-installed highway off-ramp signs directing people to wineries.
* Prohibition. During the 1920's, when alcohol was outlawed in the US, some wineries would sell grape juice in wine bottles, and if you peeled off the label it had instructions on the back that basically said "don't follow these instructions or this grape juice will turn into wine".
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* David Hume intentionally used this in his ''Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion.'' The opening and closing say that Cleanthes, the most orthodox proponent of religion, clearly wins the argument. In between those, he loses every point and the skeptical character of Philo carries the day.
 
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