Dragon Age: Origins/Headscratchers/Part II: Difference between revisions

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'''[[Dragon Age: Origins|Main Page]]'''

** Duncan didn't really seem to believe the Blight would be ended there and Cailan was full of himself trying to be like the heroes of legend.

*** Cailan also may have believed that the numbers of the darkspawn are still small after the last Blight, and by killing what he thinks is the whole horde at Ostagar would prevent the Archdemon from doing anything for a long time.

** Ostagar was actually an ideal place to make a stand. Duncan knew it was a blight, he just wasn't sure if the archdemon was there. In any case, there were darkspawn gathering in force so of course the Wardens will be there to join Cailan's army. But between's Cailan's foolishness and refusal to wait for Eamon's reinforcements, and Loghain's refusal to accept aid from Orlais and his subsequent betrayal, everything went to hell real fast.

** They didn't know for sure that the Archdemon wasn't going to be there, and Duncan seemed to be preparing for the possibility. Ask him what if the Archdemon shows, and he'll say to leave it to him. If the Archdemon had led the attack, which was possible, then Duncan would have gotten a shot at ending the Blight right then and there.

*** You're not really a "special" outsider. Grey Wardens regularly pass through Orzammar to die in the Deep Roads when their time runs out, and it is implied that outsiders visit Orzammar more often than is shown in-game. In-game they're only isolated because of the issue of deciding the kingship.

*** Well, there is that one dwarf in the Proving Area that asks if the Grey Wardens are recruiting, expressing interest in joining.

** I've heard the Orzammar criers shouting things like, "News of the hour! Grey Warden arrives in Orzammar!" right after entering, so they definitely recognized that you were there. With them shouting the news up and down the Diamond Quarter, it isn't unreasonable that most of the dwarves you meet aren't surprised.

== How did the Life Gem lose its memory? ==

** It says he went insane, slept, went insane again. Perhaps in his dementia he lost his memories.

** Maybe it's less that he lost his memories and more that he can't tell what was a memory and what was a dream anymore, and there are only a few vague facts that he's barely sure of.

** Probably because the Brecilian Forest is full of dangerous spirits and they'd rather have a safer place to establish settlements.

** There are 2 different clans that have settled in the Brecilian Forest, so clearly they don't mind it so much, and it has ''ancient elven ruins''.

** They ''do settle'', albeit temporarily. There is such a thing known as a "temporary settlement." All the hints are pointing that the Dalish know how to navigate the Brecilian forest safely.'

** They probably got the Hinterlands because they ''already'' had the Brecelian Forest. Hard to give someone something that they, y'know, ''already have.''

*** The Dalish wander through, set up encampments, establish patrols and watches, and threaten to kill/kill anyone who gets to close to their encampments. That's staking claim and controlling territory. They may be nomads, but they move around inside territory they violently defend, which means that yes, they ''do'' own it They just don't ''stay'' in it all the time.

*** They don't have the strength to back up that claim and ''keep'' control of the territory. Yeah, they terrorize villagers and travelers, but once they annoy the local rulers enough that armed forces get sent out to deal with them, they have to run away or they'll all get killed.

*** The game probably assumes that you also wish to destroy the Anvil, because that is the reason you side with him in the first place.

*** That doesn't answer anything, and you seem to assume that I speak of persuading after I sided with Caridin

*** That also doesn't answer anything. This is precisely what bugs me.

*** Because the devs didn't add it in, because it wouldn't have counted for anything--Persuade needs to ''work'', or else it's not Persuade. You can't Coerce him to do that because he'll never be Persuaded. You can, as previous posters have mentioned, tell him you don't plan on making golems with it, and that's not enough. That was a failed Persuasion, no matter your Coercion or Cunning.

** You can't persuade Caridin to save the Anvil for the same reason that you can't persuade some people into not attacking you: ''no amount of persuasion'' will convince him that the Anvil needs to be spared. In-game, you can really only convince people of something using Persuade when there's some doubt or uncertainty in there. Fanatic devotion or extremely, deeply-held beliefs can't be turned aside through mere words. Caridin deeply believes the anvil needs to be destroyed, and you ''cannot'' convince him otherwise.

*** So, my question was "Why can't I?" and your answer was "Because you can't!" Caridin's entire point in destroying the anvil is because of his horror at "the lives it claimed." I think you should be entitled to make the counter-point that the Darkspawn have claimed many, many more lives in much worse ways because the Anvil was idle.

*** ''So, my question was "Why can't I?" and your answer was "Because you can't!" '' No, my answer was "You can't change '''deeply held beliefs with Persuade.'''" This is something consistent across the game. You can't convince Alistair to make peace with Logain, you can't convince Logain to step down without fighting him, you can't convince the Cult of Andraste that their beliefs are incorrect, you can't convince Cullen that mages aren't evil, etc. There ''has'' to be some sort of foudnation of doubt or uncertainty to even have a chance of success, such as Zathrian's curse against the werewolves. Caridin's views on the Anvil are deeply-held and unshakable; you can't realistically expect to just waltz in and use a few words to undo millennia of deep-seated emotional belief, especially when dealing with someone whose mind snapped a long time ago. Caridin thoroughly believes that the Anvil is evil and must be destroyed, and no amount of talking is going to convince him otherwise.

*** Paraphrased: "My answer wasn't 'Because you can't!' - It was 'You can't [...]'" I'm going to have to say that's not very convincing.

*** Nevermind successfully convincing him, this entire discussion - you're not allowed to discuss it. There's a valid and meaningful discussion to be had here with Caridin and reasons for doing it but I just feel like the writers took the easy road and had Caridin shut you out.

*** Ahhhh, ''now'' I understand what you're trying to put across--that you should have been able to present points in an argument you didn't have. Honestly, I don't see the point. You ask Caridin and he's like ">[ No." ''He's'' not willing to argue with you...if you think he is, than perhaps you're misunderstanding his character. You can see where you ''begin'' to argue with him, but he refuses to even hear it. Case closed.

== How did Caridin lose to the king? ==

* Heck, how did Caridin lose to the king? As a paragon, if he denounced the king, the king would probably have been deposed.

*** Caridin just needed to publicly denounce the king as a greedy bastard concerned with his own power over the wellbeing of his own people and it should have been a done deal.

*** Caridin lived out in a cave far, far away from Orzammar. The king probably had spies watching him, and as soon as he saw Caradin was going to go against him, his men moved to silence Caradin before he could do anything.

** She's incapable of rational thought regarding using the anvil, but still capable of thinking of ways of actually ''getting'' the anvil, heartless and insane as they may be.

*** You know, if that's the case, what exactly are those ways of getting the anvil she thought up? Cause it looked to me like she had been out in the Deep Roads for two years and only ever bothered to try one method of getting to the anvil. Please, if she had some back up plan I missed, I would like to know about it.

** Of ''course'' Branka is insane. She's been in the Deep Roads for two years and probably has been forced to subsist on Darkspawn flesh. Eating darkspawn meat = insanity.

** Branka outright says that she didn't have any other choice when it came to creating a Broodmother to deal with the traps. If you listen to her rant after you meet her, she says that most of the other dwarves in her house were succumbing to the darkspawn taint - which makes sense, as they had been fighting darkspawn to get there. The house's troops were probably also suffering a bad attrition rate due to constantly fighting the darkspawn to reach the anvil. Once she found the Anvil, Branka's troops simply didn't have enough manpower for tunneling.

** Not really. This isn't the modern world, with a bunch of communication networks, news companies, and governments keeping track of who's alive and who's dead. The only news an average person will hear about is what travelers who happen to stop by know about and decide to share with them. Unless a person goes with the candidate who goes off to join the Grey Wardens, they will most likely never hear from the candidate again, even if they survive.

*** Word of mouth travels and there would be enough people that do ask questions, methinks. Still, yes, not everyone knows, but it's unreasonable imo to expect that nobody knows.

*** Peasants no, major figures of state who directly interact both with the Grey Wardens and people who get recruited and sometimes dissapear mysteriously, yes. And Loghain didn't get "laughed off" by anyone but those with either good reason to distrust him, or those with close relationship with the Wardens themselves. Everybody else was just too concerned with the King's death and the Blight to do take strict opinions. Remember that the Wardens are still newcomers in the country, and most people haven't yet formed their opinions.

*** I think it's likely that major figures of state are informed about that sort of things by the Grey Wardens themselves. They do tell people outside of their group some of their secrets when they feel the person can be trusted and doing so helps them accomplish their goals. They told King Maric about Grey Wardens drinking Darkspawn blood when they returned to Fereldan. They probably told Cailan and Anora the same in order to prevent them from launching an investigation into all the 'missing' recruits.

*** Then all the Grey Wardens have to do to cover it up is send a letter saying "To whom it may concern. We regret to inform you that your friend/relative/spouse/whatever has died in service to the Grey Wardens. Our sincerest condolences. Love, ''The Grey Wardens''." Problem solved!

*** Ahem. How does that cover it up?

*** Yes they do. Our hypothetical Conall died right before completing the Joining when the Joining was all that's left... It's not that hard to start guessing that maybe the Joining killed him.

*** And the Wardens can just tell them that Conall ''did'' complete the Joining, went into battle immediatly afterwards, and died.

== Herren a Desire Demon? ==

* Darkspawn Chronicles. So...Herren's a...Desire Demon? THE HELL? ''Where is the POINT in that revealation?'' And why would a Desire Demon work as the grumpy helper/boss/whatever of a master blacksmith?

** Remember the Desire Demon in the Circle Tower? All she wanted was to experience love and joy with her Templar "husband" and was masquerading as his wife doing ordinary, mundane things. The Herren-demon could ''easily'' be doing the same thing.

** Yeah, I agree. It was pointless. I can't help but feel DSC in general was pointless (almost offensively so). If this is true to the original universe, it would have to mean there used to be a real Herren for the Desire Demon to possess, since her illusion doesn't work on people she's not enthralling. You could take it to mean that it's not that Herren doesn't exist as a human, it's that in DSC he's been possessed. In which case, it's ''Herren's'' desires she's fulfilling.

*** Well, satisfaction isn't the only advantage. Alistair likely considered the werewolves a more powerful ally than the elves. It is possible that having to shoulder the burden of being a Warden all alone made him more pragmatic, which would also explain why he chose to slaughter the circle, although he's still a templar and shouldn't have that many problems with it anyway.

*** Concerning the allies you can get in the final battle, there is three choices: Templars/mages, Golems/no golems and Dalish/werewolves. Alistair manage to take what most would consider to be the "evil" choice every single time. Are we sure this Alistair wasn't wearing a goatee? Seriously, the first two choices (templars and golems) have valid reasons, pragmatism, not taking any chance with demons and all that, but choosing the werewolves is at best being a perfect asshole and at worst an evil anti-elves racist bastard.

*** I'm just saying that [[BioWare]] has no reason to assume that we'd come up with an alternate scenario--we were supposed to be finding out about the "tough" decisions Alistair had to make. They're not so tough if I can come up with reasons why it might have worked out in his favor that time, or why he might have been forced to do this or that. There's no way to honestly see how Alistair handled things if he was capable of doing too much you could not and it wasn't explained outright.

* Kind of a branch off the [[Just Bugs Me]] above. For this to be an interesting alternate universe and not crackfic, I would have to accept things in DSC as being likely under Alistair's command. I didn't see anything that indicated Alistair did something that the player could not. Therefore, I assume that Alistair ''suggested'' that the new plan be "Kill Zathrian. Kill the elves." A horrible thing only Morrigan--yes, that Morrigan--approves of. You must suggest it. You must go and kill them all. This is completely and utterly out of Alistair's character, regardless of him having to make decisions. I can accept allowing the Anvil of the Void to be preserved, since it's for the greater good. But Alistair is going off to kill a bunch of elves who never did him harm except be suspicious, for the use of a few werewolves that he mostly decimated, so they can go infect other people and cause the lycanthropy plague to spread. This is a completely evil thing to do. And Alistair does it, evidently. Do the devs just not care anymore? Oh, and also, [[Die for Our Ship|Leliana]]. [[Green-Eyed Monster|You]] [[Clingy Jealous Girl|whorebag.]]

*** That seemed a lot more like she was simply hiding what she was feeling--she didn't honestly mean that (after all, Leliana doesn't pursue Alistair if a male Warden who makes it clear he isn't interested). Ah, yes. In the toolset it says "Quietly, and hiding the truth" under that bit of dialogue.

** Considering we get the "Herren is desire demon revelation", they just didn't care might be an explaination.

** Well, about the last bit, maybe Alistair's and Morrigan's constant bickering is interpreted as genuine dislike of each other by the devs, instead of [[Slap Slap Kiss]] like fans seem to prefer to interprete it?

*** No, it's very clearly actual dislike--says so right in the toolset--I'm talking about...yanno...his being a romance option. Hence [[Clingy Jealous Girl]] link. :D

*** That's not true in the least bit. Hardening only changes a few dialogues between you and Alistair, and changes how the Landsmeet goes. Not only do they only display absolute venom to each other, nary one bit of kindness or understanding with each other, it says right there in the toolset under scripting comments that they dislike each other. The [[Slap Slap Kiss]] relationship some fans see going is entirely in their heads. He thinks she's hot, and that's it.

**** He also indulges in a lot of banter that comes off as more kind-hearted and playful than the "downright hatred" that Bioware's trying to push on the fandom. Perhaps if their voice actors had given a more convincing performance, as opposed to delivering those lines with copious helpings of UST, maybe the fandom wouldn't be so up in arms regarding Bioware's [[Ship Sinking]].

== Why does Flemeth need daughters for immortality? ==

* Why does Flemeth possess her daughters for immortality? Like, 1) There are alternatives: Apparently the Guardian of the Sacred Ashes, Zathrian, Avernus, and Sophia Dryden manage to get immortality without needing to do this. Even if Flemeth needed to possess her daughters at first, why wouldn't she move on to better, less riskier methods? She certainly had the time. 2) Why does she even need to? Morrigan points out that Flemeth possesses daughters because her own body gets frailer as she ages, but ''Flemeth is a shapeshifter.''

** Shapeshifting isn't perfect. Morrigan flat out tells you that no matter what she looks like, she's still a human. Any player could tell you that injuries and damage still carry between forms as well. Flemeth, despite her vast power, is still a decrepit old lady no matter what she transforms herself into. (Which makes her boss battle [[Fridge Horror|kind of terrifying,]] [[Fridge Brilliance|if you think about it.]]) Sooner or later, her current body will become useless to her, so she needs to swap every x-number of decades.

** And Zathrien was only alive for so long because he bound himself via blood magic to a self-perpetuating curse. Flemeth doesn't strike me as the kind to bind herself like that. As it stands, her existing method - raising younger bodies and snatching them without warning - was a pretty solid and apparently quite reliable method. Morrigan broke the cycle, but that was because she had a friend who could go into Irving's personal study in the middle of a crisis and gank Flemeth's own personal grimiore, and Flemeth implies that [[Xanatos Gambit|she was expecting this, anticipated your attempt to kill her, and this was all part of her plan.]]

** If it makes you feel any better, the notes in the toolset say she commits suicide by jumping shortly afterwards.

** Hespith wasn't becoming a Broodmother. That was only the 'normal' effect of Taint driving someone crazy.

*** You also argue that you want to go through this ritual because you're afraid of what the demon will do when you're gone. Well, what IS the demon going to do? Unleash an army of undead on Redcliffe? OH WAIT IT DID THAT. IT LOST. The demon itself doesn't have a lot of options; if you go up to his room, Connor himself will tell you that the demon is afraid of you. And yet you can't reason that out?

*** It lost because I and my armed friends were there to help out. That is the only reason it lost. And, as you say, according to Connor the demon is afraid of ME, personally. If I go, so do the hopes of Redcliffe surviving another attack from the demon, which - without metagaming - I have no way of knowing won't happen while I cheerily wander off to the Cirlce Tower.

*** And as for the canonical example of lyrium being combined with blood magic, the ritual you speak of was attempted by the Magister Lords, some of the most powerful mages who ever lived. Have you actually used Jowan's character while he's in the Fade? He's only dipped into [[Blood Magic]] for one talent. He's not even a particularly powerful blood mage!

*** To sum up: your complaint is that, under a very specific set of circumstances that most players wouldn't run into, you can't pay through the nose to resolve a quest in a certain way even though you've got at least one option that achieves the same result without you having to sacrifice any resources. And you can't say with certainty if your proposed solution would even work. I say that's nitpicking.

*** I do believe Jowan when he said he only "dabbled" in blood magic. He certainly could be lying, but aside from having only one talent in blood magic, what other powers does Jowan demonstrate? Can he control of demons, or even summon them? No. Can he infuence the minds of others? Nope, and yet that's more or less the entire point of blood magic. He did cast a very powerful spell in order to escape the Circle tower, but that required mutilating himself in a very graphic fashion. He simply isn't that strong.

*** At one point Jowan was supposed to be a party member, so he presumably had a much stronger blood mage talent tree. Besides that, ''all'' forms of blood magic require blood (or, like, life-juice or something)--of yourself, or of others. Irving comments that he didn't suspect Jowan would be so powerful, and he's First Enchanter. If you choose Jowan to go into the Fade, he does have the blood mage talent tree available. How much is based on your level.

** From what I gathered you are going to need at least four mages (probably more) to complete the ritual, as Irving brings at least two with him to Redcliffe. Thus, you need five mages total (four for the ritual, one to go into the Fade). Thus, at the very best, you've only got four mages (Wynne, Morrigan, PC mage, Jowan) but no one to send into the Fade. With the mages' help, you've got four to complete the ritual (Irving plus buddies, and Jowan, Wynne, PC mage, or Morrigan). Solves the issue quite handily; even if you have the smuggled lyrium, you just don't have enough mages to make the ritual work.

== Branka's skill as a warrior ==

* How the hell did Branka learn to fight so well?! She isn't from the warrior caste for starters and shouldn't be able to use magic (and yet can split into multiple versions of herself.) Does being a paragon make you an automatic badass?

** She probably got warrior training after she became a Paragon or at least before she ventured into the Deep Roads. The splitting thing is probably a result of the exposure to lyrium for two years and some research on her part.

** The way that her husband Oghren (who may have personally taught her how to kick ass) already talks about her would be an indicator that she's already an incredible hardass. Coupled with the above, she had to learn a few things more to survive.

* How the heck is Gorim ''already'' married to a surface dwarfwoman and expecting a child with her by the time you can reach Denerim, even though the progression of the story appears to have been no more than a few weeks? Dear God, if I was a dwarf who'd never, ever seen sunlight in my entire life and found myself in such a strange new world, I'd at least wait a while and just get adjusted to such a drastic life change and get used to living a new life before even thinking of doing something as serious as getting married and starting a family. Massive [[Player Punch]] right there if the PC is a Lady Aeducan who was romantically involved with him. Why was he so quick to assume she was dead, when it was he who gave her advice on getting out of the Deep Roads alive? And if he thought she was dead, why did he bother hanging onto the letter from her father and the Aeducan Shield? Gee, he must not have really loved her very much. If he assumed she was dead, sure didn't take him long to get over her...

** ''How the heck is Gorim ''already'' married to a surface dwarfwoman and expecting a child with her by the time you can reach Denerim, even though the progression of the story appears to have been no more than a few weeks?'' If you're a mage, Wynne will outright say that it was roughly a year between you leaving the Circle Tower and the current events of the story. There's no reason to assume it took any less time for the Aeducan Warden to get that far. Presumably, it takes quite a bit of time to cross Ferelden, especially to the get to the Wilds.

** ''And if he thought she was dead, why did he bother hanging onto the letter from her father and the Aeducan Shield?'' [[Sarcasm Mode|No, it makes no sense for Gorim to hold on to something that reminds him of an old friend/lover.]]

** ''Gee, he must not have really loved her very much. If he assumed she was dead, sure didn't take him long to get over her...'' Except he's a goddamn ''dwarf''. You know, the people who have been ''fighting and dying against the darkspawn for millennia.'' They're accustomed to warriors dying in battle and death in general. Considering the society he came from, it does make sense that Gorim would in fact get over the death of his beloved pretty quickly, because dwarven warriors and nobles die often.

*** Yeeeaah. I was asking ''why'' they migrate aboveground instead of attacking the dwarves.

*** It's mentioned several times in the game that there are far more humans than elves or dwarves in Fereldan. Humans live above the ground in large concentrations, while there seems to be only Orzammar left with large groups of dwarves. Considering the Archdemon organizes the darkspawn to an extent, at least if the Darkspawn Chronicles are any indication, it makes sense that the horde would be guided to the human towns and cities because ''that's where most of the food and potential broodmothers are.'' They only were attacking the dwarves before the current Blight began in unorganized groups (granted, very large unorganized groups) because those were the people nearest. Now that the Archdemon is calling to them, they gather to it and not the dwarves as much.

** The game suffers from a great deal of [[Gameplay and Story Segregation]]. I've heard that originally they were going to add Darkspawn sensing abilities and add a mechanic so that your party members could be infected, but those didn't make it into the final game. Also, the Wardens seem to be pretty good at keeping a supply of blood, and Blights seem to happen every few centuries, so I assume they know what they're doing there. And I've said this before to concerns like yours, so I'll say it again. The purpose of the Joining isn't really to give Grey Wardens the power to sense Darkspawn or resist the taint. The purpose of the Joining is to give every Warden the power to kill the Archdemon, which is ''absolutely necessary'' in order to end a Blight. Trying to wait until a Blight starts before you start tainting people is a recipe for disaster. For all you know all the potentials could either run away or be killed by the Joining itself, leaving you with no Wardens at all. Even if it all works out fine, a lot of people still won't survive, and having half the members drop dead just as the Grey Wardens are needed most would make any attempt to fight a gigantic war a nightmare. It is a massive waste of lives, and it totally sucks for anyone who joins, but the point of the Joining as it is is to minimize risk. And considering they would be risking their chances of stopping the Blight (which would result in the destruction of the entire world), it is ultimately a better choice in the long run.

*** Here's another thought: it is also a way of compelling a Grey Warden to commit to their role. They call it "the duty that cannot be forsworn" for good reason. If you survive the Joining, you are and will always be a Grey Warden. Even if you ran away from the organization and hid away in the mountains — which means spending the rest of your days on the run from both the Wardens and the darkspawn, who can sense the presence of the Wardens — you will begin to transform into a ghoul once your 30 years is up. At that point, you will be compelled to enter the Deep Roads. From there, you can either live the rest of your short, pathetic life being the darkspawn's slave or die in battle, taking as many of the bastards with you as you can. Add to that the whole "only the Grey Wardens can kill the Archdemon" issue.

*** What game were you playing? First off, the only reason there were only a few Wardens in Fereldan is because they had been exiled from the country for hundreds of years. They had only returned recently and didn't have enough time to build up their numbers. Secondly, the game makes it quite clear that most people do NOT understand how much of a threat the Darkspawn are. Only King Cailan is trying to fight them, and that's because he wants to play hero. Every other person just ignores them in favour of their own personal problems, and no one does anything to fight them without Grey Wardens prodding them to action. This isn't even unique, as the books note that pretty much everyone will ignore everything Darkspawn related unless the Blight is directly on top of them. And lastly, how on earth does having more people do anything to stop the goddamned Archdemon!? If they can't kill it, they are completely useless, as demonstrated during the first Blight.

** Because she wants to raise it away from everyone else in order to further her larger plan with it. She can't exactly do that if she stays with the Warden. She may love the Warden, even regret what she feels she must do, but her plans matter more to her than that.

*** Agreed. We don't actually ''know'' her plan yet. She might have a really good reason, she might have an utterly selfish one.

== Non-mage characters using the Litany of Adralla ==

*** If she's around to tell you that, you'd have to have her -- you don't get to change party members after meeting. That doesn't change the fact that she tells ''you'' to do it, whatever class you may be.

*** You may return to the place you met Wynne and swap party members all the time. You may kill Wynne in the area you meet Cullen and then be allowed to swap party members.

** There might be some justification for the "spell is on the paper" theory. During the mage origin, a non-mage character, Lily, was able to activate a magic door by speaking a password. This might be enough to serve as proof-of- concept that any non-mage could complete a spell once it had been put place by a mage.

*** Actually, in that particular instance, she was speaking a password meant to be said be templars. It was a two-part password, so that only a templar and a mage could enter together: you need a spoken password and some sort of magic power to hit the door and make it open.

** As for Wynne's "any mage should be able to cast it" line, maybe it worked a bit like the magic door in that a mage was required to start up the magic in the Litany allowing non-mage characters to "cast" it when they needed to.

== Why no Dalish Mage Origin? ==

* Why isn't there an origin for a Dalish Mage? If you choose the Dalish origin, you're a Warrior or a Rogue. If you want to be an Elven mage, you're automatically in the 'Magi' Origin. It doesn't make sense to me, since it's explained, in-game, that the Dalish don't hand their mages over to the Chantry.

** In other words, because they just didn't have the time or resources for another Origin path. There were other Origins planned as well, but scrapped when the deadline started to approach.

*** Also, there are a total of ''two'' mages per clan: Keeper and Assistant Keeper.

***** Pardon me for interjecting but yes, in fact, Leliana's Song did very strongly imply she was raped. In fact, it pretty much all but came out and said it. Comments from the captain near the end of the quest pretty much confirms it ("If you wanted more men, all you had to do was ask!").

***** Now you're just moving the goal posts. First he didn't regret is actions, now he does regret them but he hasn't "paid for his crimes". What exactly were you hoping for here? That Sten would be tried, convicted, and sentenced by a jury of his peers or something? And whether he has paid for his crimes or not is not the issue and never was. The point is he ''sincerely regrets his actions''. He recognizes that what he did was wrong and he's ashamed of himself for it. Velanna does NOT acknowledge that what she did was wrong and she is NOT ashamed of her actions. THAT is the difference.

**** I don't actually agree with either side, but, again, I'll say that many serial killers (or murderers in general) have an extremely warped upbringing. That is not an excuse, and it never will be. I'd say that the major difference between Zevran and Velanna is that we view "genocidal maniac" in a different light than "assassin". Yeah, yeah, I know, but most of us consider one thing more evil than the other.

*** -->I'll point out that it doesn't have to be the game shying away from rape, but rather the character. Whether or not she was actually raped is ambiguous.

*** Velanna didn't kill humans just to be a bitch. One of the Architect's disciples set things up to look like her splinter clan (including her own sister) were killed by humans. This in no way excuses her, but it does show her to be something other than a racist serial killer.

**** Actually that's exactly what it shows her to be. Punishing any and all humans who cross her path, regardless of whether they were responsible for her clan's destruction or not, is the very definition of racism. Coldly and unrepentantly killing scores of people is the very definition of a serial killer. It would be different if she expressed some measure of remorse or expressed doubt as to whether her actions were the right thing to do, but she doesn't seem to do either of those things.

** That's a very good point. But Velanna's murders explicitly effect more than just the people she killed. The epilogue states the Dalish and humans in Amaranthine come into conflict over her actions, and many more lives are probably going to be lost because of her. The problem isn't that Velanna is the only companion to kill people, because she isn't, but that her murders lead to much more damage than the others. Zev and Leliana's assassinations may have caused a domino effect, but that's not really explained. In one epilogue, it says that Amaranthine becomes safe 'with the Architect and Velanna gone'. So she had a serious effect on the people there.

** As opposed to the two assassins in your group who have both taken up matters of national security (one of which unwittingly, but still), Sten who may very well become involved in a future qunari invasion, and Morrigan whose ritual will have some ''very'' important consequences to the entire world later on? Velanna became a boogey man for merchants, but beyond that her actions didn't do much more than exaggerate tensions that already existed. She'll be quickly forgotten after the game ends.

== Relationships ==

* Why does Wynne disapprove of you being in a relationship, even if it's with Alistair or Leliana? If those two were people in the real world, they'd be a perfect match for almost anybody.

** Note that you don't get an offical disapproval message for telling her that you'll keep the relationship with either of those two. She seems to like them enough that her message was more formality than anything else. The only relationship she ''really'' dislikes is between Morrigan and a male PC, but nobody else trusts Morrigan to like that pairing either.

*** Eventually, Wynne will backtrack and admit she was wrong. Don't take it too personally; she's just trying to help.

** 1 & 2) The Wardens employ everything it takes to win, including Blood Mages. There's probably an advanced (->Not playable) spell of Blood Magic that allows to completely drain a corpse of its blood. How they keep enough blood...dunno. Maybe Also a blood magic trick. Or they just make very few actual Wardens and most of the soldiers that follow them are special conscript that they, possibly, recruited or got from local lords, who are Grey Wardens in all but having performed the joining and get led by the Wardens that did go through it, or something. 3) Nah, I don't think the actual body explodes. If you choose the Sacrifice, the PC's body is fine for his cremation ceremony, while it should, by all means, have been blown to pieces by standing so close to the exploding dragon. The explosion is likely either the process of the Archdemon's soul being destroyed or simply the process it goes through when leaving its body. 4) The PC probably just forgot about it. It IS possible to make armor and weapons out of Archdemon materials, in Awakening, there's the Armor of the Sentinel, which was made out of the Archdemon Dumat's hide after the first Blight. With a non-in-world reason: there's no purpose for new armor after you defeated the final boss and when they made Awakening, they probably just didn't think of it.

*** Archdemon blood isn't strictly required for the Joining. Any darkspawn's blood can be used, provided that it is magically treated with lyrium. That's why you gather up darkspawn blood on one of the quests from the Korcari Wilds.

*** But just how does archdemon blood make any difference? Archdemon is still just a darkspawn, nothing more or less.

*** The game makes it clear that the Archdemons actually are the Old Gods, not normal darkspawn. It isn't completely clear what the Old Gods ''are'', but their power is real enough.

*** IIRC, it was cut for time constraint reasons. They probably could have come up with any reason for having Archdemon blood--perhaps you would have been required to break into the Grey Warden base in Denerim. At the moment, however, you ''can't'' Conscript him. Why you don't just tell Arl Eamon you're Conscripting him? I doubt he knows the details of the Joining process, and he has no way of knowing you're a recruit (unless you're a Cousland, but still).

** Right of Conscription of no, what really bugs me is that there doesn't seem to be any option to get Arl Eamon to release Jowan. At that point in the game, my character had Master Coercion, and did everything in my power to save Eamon's family, vouch for Jowan, say he was a good man and he regretted his actions, pester Teagan and Eamon to release him at every turn, and still they refused to. "No, no, no, he's a Malificar, can't let him go, no no no. Have to hand him over to the Circle so he can be executed or have his emotions sucked out and made Tranquil, yup." I could understand if Eamon had lost his wife or son because of Jowan, but no, I made sure that both Conner and Isolde were 100% alive and well after everything. But that ungrateful bastard still either executes Jowan or hands him over to the Circle, where he'll either be killed as a Malificar or made Tranquil, which Jowan implies in the Mage Origin is a [[Fate Worse Than Death]] for him. I can understand if they had to cut him as a party member for time contraints, but why couldn't they include a dialogue option to help him go free? The only way for Jowan to have a reasonably happy ending is for you to tell him to scram as soon as you free him, passing up the opportunity for his help. It was a major [[Guide Dang It]] moment when I discovered that, by asking for his help after freeing him, I was unwittingly condemning Jowan to execution or the death of everything that made him who he was, and it was too late to go back and change it. It really just bugs me.

*** It would still have been nice to have a very-difficult-but-possible method of freeing Jowan some other way. Secretly breaking him out of the dungeons in Redcliffe, using Master Coercion to trick Bann Teagen into releasing him, bribing a guard with 100 sovereigns to leave his cell unlocked, interception on the way to the Circle Tower and defeating a dozen templars to free him, asking for his freedom as a boon from Alistair/Anora at the end, etc. Granted, none of them would be very plausible or easy, but c'mon, there were plenty of possible options!

*** You can free him in the dungeon by flat out ordering him to get out of your sight. It leads to a quest that, thanks to a glitch, cannot be accessed in-game. In that quest, you find him out in the wilds, protecting refugees under an assumed name. You can choose to kill him or let him go there.

**** People have already done more than enough to prove you wrong. Bhelen pretended to be weak, but clearly proved himself to be a cunning and manipulative Machiavellian schemer behind the scenes. Gorim implied he could have spent years working to ensure that when his plan finally came to fruition, he would have enough support to throw you into the Deep Roads without fair trial. By all evidence, it appears as if you killed Trian. He made sure that you wouldn't get a fair trial. He outplayed you. Not everyone was happy, but he managed to get what he wanted done. Clearly it wasn't flawless, as there is a succession crisis later.

**** And it still doesn't make sense that they actually wanted HIS ass on the throne and to kill the dear beloved prince/princess. And that they didn't want them to even get have a trial at all. Hell, if he does become king, he ends up destroying that idiot ass backwards "assembly" completely and the deshyrs lose all their power completely so why do they even support him if it's out of fear (spineless little mofo's). Besides, your father was king and had the power to stop this lunacy but didn't for some reason.

***** Your dad thought you were guilty and he didn't insist on a proper trial because he was so ashamed. Later, he realized he was wrong. The remorse he felt KILLED him.

**** Which makes no difference because, as far as he knew, your bones were being gnawed on by darkspawn. He had no idea that you'd, through ridiculous luck, find Duncan's party in the Deep Roads. Sure he regretted everything, but by the time he figured out he'd been fooled, it was too little, too late. If you had gotten back a month earlier, that'd be a whole 'nother story, but you didn't. To just about everyone else, you are just an exile who somehow managed to not die, Grey Warden or not.

== Zevran returning to Antiva ==

* So if you start an Awakening game with an imported Warden, and the Warden was in a romance with Zevran, you get a codex called "A Letter from Zevran" basically saying the reason he isn't here is because he's messing around with the Crows in Antiva. But... why? Supposedly he wanted to be free from the Crows and get away from them more than anything. So why did he go back to Antiva, the Crows' base of operations?! What was the purpose of doing that?!

*** Remember Leliana's (alleged) vision from the Maker? Technically it came true. This would be of great theological significance to the Chantry, particularly because if true it overturns a major aspect of the Chant of Light (the Maker spoke to no one but Andraste). Perhaps the Grand Cleric wants to prop Leliana up as the Second Coming of Andraste or something. Or maybe they're planning to burn Leliana as a heretic. ([[Sequel Hook]] anybody?)

*** Now that I think of it, the meeting only occurs if Leliana was the Warden's romantic partner. The fact that she's the (implied) wife of the hero who took down the latest Blight without dying was probably enough to get the Chantry to take her vision claims seriously.

*** The Grand Cleric is located in Val Royeaux, the capital of Orlais, quite a distance away. Personally, I was more irritated at where the hell my Grey Warden friend/lover Alistair was and why it was so important he couldn't be bothered to come back and deal with Grey Warden problems.

*** Alistiar is, most likely, King of Ferelden, thus interested in king-related stuff. Even if your Warden is king/queen, their spouse is still in Denerim to handle matters until they get back. Alistair, if married to Anora, probably doesn't quite trust her enough to give her free reign of the country while his friend or the Orleasian Warden is on the job.

*** Yes? I'm not sure what your point is...

** Probably because everybody's already on edge what with the whole darkspawn apocalypse breathing down their necks. Loghain's in full on crazy mode and will not go quietly. The Fereldens, being decendants of barbarian warlords, probably feel that this kind of thing is a valid way to settle such an issue without an all out riot.

*** The point behind the Landsmeet is to get the nobles united behind you. Ideally, this would push things to the point where you can unseat Loghain through a simple duel. Otherwise, Loghain will have enough support among the nobility that he can still attempt to have the "traitors" arrested.

** Well, ''you'' know that in the end, the outcome of the Landsmeet only depends on the duel. Your character, your group, Arl Eamonn, they don't know that. The plan is to unite Ferelden against Loghain, and not to just show who's stronger. Plus, it gives you the chance of getting a [[Crowning Moment of Awesome]] when pretty much the entire Landsmeet turns against Loghain.

** Two reasons. One: Because players who weren't able to get the Landsmeet on their side needed an "out" that would allow them to depose Loghain (otherwise the game would be unwinnable if the Landsmeet votes against you). Two: Because the players who were able to get the Landsmeet on their side would have felt cheated if they didn't get to fight Loghain too.

== Morrigan's Motivations For The Ritual In The First Place? ==

* So if Morrigan is "rebelling" against Flemeth long before she ever offers to perform the Ritual, then why is Morrigan so interested in having it performed later? I suppose you could always chalk things up the fact that Morrigan ''did'' say that she wanted to perform the Ritual to save the Warden's life, but think about it- Morrigan offers to do the Ritual regardless of whether you'd banished her beforehand or whether she hated your guts. So why, then?

** [[Unreliable Expositor]] at its finest. Neither Morrigan nor Flemeth are to be trusted, though the former can be given slightly more leeway than the latter. The way it looks to me, it's a mixture of truth and lies. Morrigan and Flemeth plotted together to make Morrigan pregnant with the soul of an Old God, after which Flemeth would hijack Morrigan's body via [[Grand Theft Me]]. Afterwards, Flemeth would raise the child, effectively gaining control of an Old God herself. (She might have even planned to hijack ''that'' body, too, but there's no telling.) Morrigan goes through with the Ritual even afterwards because either A) she has nothing to lose seeing as how she no longer has a home and her job will be done once the Blight is over anyway or B) she has fallen in love with the Warden, despite her abhorrence of the emotion. If it's the latter, it's a triple-win situation for her: she gains the soul of an Old God, saves the life of the man she loves and bears his child, and removes herself to prevent being "tainted" by the dreaded feeling of love.

**** Or maybe he'd rather forget about the whole thing.

** It's possible Alistair just doesn't care about the child as a person. He hates Morrigan, he's very suspicious of forbidden magic, is rather religious so the whole "soul of an old god" thing might offend him on that level, and more than anything he could consider that the child isn't a human so much as it is a tool for Morrigan to use for wicked ends, and in all likelihood a humanoid abomination at that. So its possible he just wants to put it out of his mind and hope it doesn't come back to bite him. Conversely, it's possible for the pc to be all of those things and have a similar opinion, but just be more proactive in hunting Morrigan down. (the pc wanting to raise their child goes hand in hand with them loving Morrigan).

== Human Noble Origin ==

* Ok, so the Human Noble's family {{spoiler|bar Fergus}} is killed in the Origin by Arl Howe. While you get plenty of options to talk about your brother and Howe, you never get the option to actually call him out for this. Why not just rally Denerim's law enforcement and go haul his ass in for the slaughter of one of the oldest and most powerful noble families? Sure you're a Grey Warden and accused of treason, but that rarely inconveniences you.

** .....you've been declared a ''traitor''. Loghain's army is ''out to kill you''. And you are seriously suggesting you go and ''get the law'' to go after Howe, ''who is Loghain's right hand'' and ''rules Denerim''? ''Are you fucking stupid''?

** Amusing fact: Howe is the Arl of Denerim. Which means that Denerim's law enforcement follows ''his'' orders. On top of that, he's Loghain's second, which makes him pretty much immune to the law until the Landsmeet unseats Loghain. There's a reason why, when you roll into Howe's estate and kill him, the guards show up to arrest ''you''.

** [[Did Not Do the Research|If you're a human noble you can, in fact, demand the right of vengeance against Howe]] after you've rescued Eamon, gathered all your allies, and initiated the Landsmeet, when he and Cauthrien show up with Loghain. Their response? {{spoiler|Howe claims your family was in league with the Orlesians, as were the Wardens, and so were traitors; hence, you have no blood right to challenge Howe. ''That'', incidentally, is how Howe possibly though he could get away with it, to answer Cailan's incredulous question when you meet him at Ostagar.}}

** The Couslands are country nobles and the PC has undoubtedly heard worse from her father. If it's among family and friends, nobody's really going to mind so long as she knows how to act the part of a Fine Lady when the etiquette's on. As for the [[Double Standard]], I'll note that it's really not present. Nobody except Arl Howe thinks that Lady Cousland should [[Stay in the Kitchen]], and if that were a standard theme in Ferelden, then why aren't they, y'know, objecting to the fact that [[My Girl Is Not a Slut|Lady Cousland is not only not a virgin but is having casual sex with servants]]?

** I don't think more people would be willing to be Grey Wardens if everyone knew what it entailed. What with the reduced lifespan and turning into a monster and going crazy and what not. Can't see many people eagerly signing up for that. You couldn't even get people to join up by telling them it's their duty to the Maker or whatever, seeing as, as far as anyone knows, killing the Archdemon gets your soul obliterated. And even if, for some reason, lots of people did want to sign up, they probably wouldn't be the people the Wardens need. They don't have a limitless supply of the stuff that makes people Grey Wardens, so they need recruits who have a chance of fighting their way through an army of darkspawn and then killing the Archdemon in close combat. In other words, the very best fighters of each generation. Seeing as those people could all have much better lives than regular people just by using their talents to get themselves wealth or status, I can't see them all deciding to give that up and join the Wardens.

** People are willing to kill themselves for far lesser causes than '''stopping the end of the world'''. All it would take is some charismatic guy (clearly not Epic Fail Duncan) to spin it as the ultimate test of strength, righteous heroic sacrifice, making the world safe for children and puppies and so on. It would 100% certainly increase membership compared to tricking a few unfortunate guys to come with you and then forcing them to join.

*** Only one Warden every few centuries dies stopping the end of the world. The rest of them die for pretty much nothing. Membership will drop off sharply as hundreds of years go by with no Blight happening. And, as I've already pointed out, increasing applicants does not make it better for the Wardens. They have a limited supply of Archdemon blood, and so there is a limit to the number of Wardens they can make. They try and fill their ranks with the best people they can find. Having lots of well intentioned volunteers willing to sign up is no help if they aren't actually good enough to meet the Grey Wardens standards anyway. The Grey Wardens would still be forced to go looking around for the most talented people in Thedas to force them into the order, only now it's a lot harder because everyone knows exactly what they're in for.

== The Warden's bedroll ==

* All of the characters supposedly have their own tents, but my player character is always shown sleeping on a bedroll out in the open. The co-hero-of-the-land isn't good enough for a tent?

*** That would save on the amount of equipment you have to carry around. It seems like a logical solution to me. Yep.

*** Same with Male PC, I romanced Zevran ([[Suspiciously Specific Denial|But I'm not Gay]]) and we just went into some tent I've never seen before now.

**** And if he is, can he slay the Archdemon? Or, for that matter, participate [[Nightmare Fuel|in Morrigan's]] ritual?

***** Well Morrigan ''is'' a shapeshifter...

**** He might be able to kill the Archdemon, but the ritual would require a dog-human hybrid, which may not be possible, even using the ritual.

**** Duncan borrows the Cousland's dog when you arrive at Ostagar. I assume that he gives him the treatment that you can give the dog that you normally rescue.

*** It's important to remember that {{spoiler|Loghain is ''crazy''. He's so busy being paranoid about Orlais that it blinds him to everything else.}}

** Remember, you are a little late in lighting the beacon. {{spoiler|Maybe his original plan was indeed to slide a blade between his ribs during the battle, but that he didn't think he could still win at that late stage. Loghain actually stattes as much during one confrontation with him, though you should indeed take whatever he says with a pinch of salt.}}

*** Arl Eamon hadn't been sick for more than some weeks - about the same time as the preparations to the battle of Ostagar had been underway. Since Jowan appears in the Mage PC's origin story, this further supports the idea that Loghain's treacherous actions didn't begin before Ostragar became an issue.

**** A conversation with Wynne states that it has been a year since you left the Circle if you were a mage so technically, there was more than enough time for Jowan to poison the Arl beforehand and Loghain had been planning it for a long while.

**** The point being that Loghain's claim that he withdrew from the field at Ostagar because the battle could not be won is a bald-faced lie; he was planning something beforehand, as we can see from the fact that things like arl Eamon's poisoning had to have been arranged before that point.

***** Loghain is a very experienced general and war hero. He's seen more than his share of battles and understands the basic intricacies of war. He doesn't have to be right there in the thick of combat to realize a battle is unwinnable; that he recognized (and attempted to convince Cailan) that Ostagar would not hold and every man sent to fight there would die well before the battle itself took place is a reflection both of his abilities as a general and of Cailan's lack thereof. Of course he was planning his coup during the planning stages of Ostagar; he already knew it was a fool's battle. If the battle can't be won, the only thing he could possibly do at that point is damage control, which is the reason he gives for why he withdrew his men.

*** The problem is that Howe had to know that King Cailan would flat-out kill him for what he'd done -- as Cailan immediately says he will, the instant you and Duncan tell him what happened. Unless Howe is stupider than a genlock, there is no way he would have launched his attack unless he ''knew'' that Cailan would not live long enough to come after him.

*** Cailan wasn't supposed to know any of this though until Howe told him what he wanted. Duncan being there was totally unexpected (which is clear when Howe is so taken aback when he walks in and quickly makes an excuse about not preparing the formailities or some such to explain his shock.) Without Duncan witnessing the attack and saving Human noble Warden and both of them reporting to Cailan as witnesses, Cailan wouldn't have found out until much later. Indeed on any other path Duncan isn't there, the human noble is killed and Howe's treachery is never known to Cailan. Howe simply gets lucky in the Human noble path that Cailan is killed before he could make a move on his knowledge.

**** On the surface, the game paints Loghain as straight-up villain. Delve a little deeper however, despite ultimately being wrong, his motivations were at least understandable. Consider: Loghain grew up under an oppressive occupation of a foreign nation, he is a tactical genius and instrumental in liberating Ferelden, he is poranoid that Orlais will one day decide to re-invade Ferelden, he is unimpressed by the what little amount of Wardens there are in Ostagar (who counts that silly bastard-of-Marric Alistair among their ranks) and is relunctant to allow more of them to come since they would have to be from Orlais, and lastly he is saddled with a, though likable enough, not-too-bright childish glory-hound of a king whose responsibilities of ruling the kingdom since being crowned secretly falls to Queen Anora's shoulders anyway (something comonly known to the nobles of Ferelden). His master plan for saving Ferelden (a second time) was sloppy and a chain reaction of screw ups and atrocities because of, in my opinion, three reasons--his ignorance of the nature of a blight (maybe if he was just up against a invasion of armies of regular people...), his ignorance of the necessity of Wardens (only they can kill an archdemon), and his coup was spur-of-the-moment. I believe the third is true for various reasons:<br />'''1)''' If Loghain is spared, he will claim that all that's happened happened because he made "tactical error". He is a proven genius; a plan to rid of a problematic king and personally lead the forces of Ferelden against the blight should have gone better if he had more intel and prep time.<br />'''2)''' In Ostagar, up until he deserted, he seemed to really, earnestly, trying to win the battle. Soldiers would claim that he and Cailan arguing were constantly about strategy. Why bother trying to convince Cailan not to be an idiot about everything if desertion was Loghain's plan in the first place? And Cailan was REALLY pushing it, with his over confidence and chasing glory and seeming belief that Wardens are impervious to anything darkspawn-related (granted, on the flip side Loghain didn't give Wardens their due). Even Duncan thought Cailan was being a dummy for pete's sake (to be fair, Duncan was privy to even more information why Cailan should actually be playing smart), though he's to polite to say it out right. Cailan even turned away an offer of an entire ARMY of reinforcements because he didn't want to share any more of the credit ("Eamon just wants in on the glory").<br />'''3)''' If you spoke to Loghain at his tent in Ostagar and then tell him you think Cailan's being an idiot, he'll defend Cailan by saying, "He is Maric's son and the ruler of my beloved Ferelden. HE'S ALSO A VERY YOUNG MAN. I TRY TO KEEP THAT IN MIND, AND SO SHOULD YOU." A bit backhanded, but he spells out what he thinks the root of Cailan's problems are and at the same time tells you why he's being relatively patient with him (and why you should too).<br />'''4)''' As was already mentioned, you were late with the signal. At that point Cailan's forces were already overwhelmed and getting slaughtered (the cutscene). Loghain firmly believed he was saving his men's lives. He maintains this even at the end, even when he admits he was wrong, that at the time he believed he was ultimately saving lives.<br />'''5)''' Loghain would have been scrambling to maintain his dubiously earned seat of power and would ally himself with shady people out of necessity like...<br />'''6)''' Jowan was central to the poisoning of Arl Eamon. He left the circle the same day a Magi Warden would have, which would be around a week before the battle at Ostagar; maybe two. Regardless, Loghain was at Ostagar (remember, they were already having smaller skirmishes with darkspawn there while Duncan was out recruiting that one last Warden). Loghain's only opportunity to approach the desperate apostate would have been after Ostagar.<br />'''7)''' If Loghain's coup was spur of the moment, that means Uldred (who was at Ostagar) would have formed the alliance with Loghain right after the battle. The promise of the Circle supporting Loghain (who would be desperate for any support at this point) if Loghain supported Uldred gave Uldred the balls to go ahead with his own plans. This makes more sense to me than Loghain actually believing under normal circumstances that a Circle of Maleficar was a good idea (I mean, their religion and the politics alone...).<br />'''8)''' I think the aliance with Arl Howe would have been similar. Loghain admits that Howe is too unscrupulous so I don't think he would have supported Howe under normal circumstances. To the end Howe maintained that he believed Teyrn Cousland was selling out Ferelden to the Orlesians and was the ultimate reason for his own betrayal. Yes he was a jealous bastard, but Teryn Cousland could have very well been having secret correspondances with Orlesians though not necessarily colluding with them; hell, Cailan was (evidence of it found in Return to Ostagar DLC, although he might just have been having an affair with their Empress). Howe seems to be just as paranoid about Orlais as Loghain was. He couldn't fathom why his Teyrn, who he fought and bled for against Orlais, would even consider talking to a stinking Orlesian. He very well could have evidence to support his claim which he would have presented to Cailan, he just didn't count on Duncan and a pesky recruit escaping to tell the Warden fanboy Cailan before he got the chance.<br />Granted, it's very convenient that Howe killed the highest ranking and most beloved noble family, second only to the Theirins who are royalty, who would have just happened to be the ones to have had the greatest claim to the throne (if not for Alistair's existence and the Mac Tir's getting dishonored because of Loghain's actions). Hmmm... But it's still my opinion that Loghain is not a power hungry psycho who wanted Ferelden all for himself as it appears at first glance.

**** While I agree that Loghain is most likely a [[Well-Intentioned Extremist]] who was motivated by a desire to save Fereldan, rather than control it, there are two rather critical points you have overlooked that renders most of your argument moot. The first is that Arl Eamon fell sick ''before'' the battle at Ostagar, as his knights will tell you if you ask them about it, so it is confirmed that Loghain was planning to move against the King before Ostagar. The second point you overlooked is that, good intentions aside, LOGHAIN IS A FUCKING LIAR. He has no problem with just making things up in if he thinks it will make him look better, so there is no reason to believe that ''anything'' he says about what his plans were is the truth.

**** Or they just didn't know Eamon was ill. There is a signifigant distance between Ostagar and Redcliffe, so any message sent about Eamon would not be heard by the king for weeks. They didn't bother to wait for him, after all.

**** Then then Jowan must have been caught, word sent to Loghain about Jowan, word sent back from Loghain to place Jowan in Eamon's castle, and Jowan accomplishes plan all in before before Duncan and the warden even reached Ostagar. Possible but perhaps cutting it a little close. But I wonder why Jowan was even involved if this was planned ahead, since if Loghain really needed a non Circle mage, there are easier ways than hoping to happen upon a runaway (like the Tevinter mages who are likely way more competent than Jowan when it comes to shit like this).

**** If Loghain was planning everything beforehand, then he could easily have just left his men on standby to carry out the plot as soon as Jowan left the tower. He knows that Isolde is willing to secretly smuggle a mage into Redcliffe in order to teach her son. He asks his allies at the Tower for someone expendable to carry out an assassination, and they (all being Blood Mages) tell him about some dumbass apprentice who is going to get caught soon by the Templars. Loghain leaves instructions to the mages to inform his men when the guy is caught, and his men are ordered to rescue the apprentice, offer him a job and transport him to Redcliffe. Then he heads off to Ostagar.

**** And he was already caught by the time of the mage origin; they were going to Jowan him tranquil. The First Enchanter only uncovered that Jowan knows that they know, and his plan to destroy his phylactery, on the very day. Then Greigor just decided he'll just execute Jowan instead of making him tranquil. No one actually expected Jowan to make it out of the tower alive or at least with access to his powers.

== Wynne's betrayal at Circle Tower ==

* Why does Wynne betray you if you save the captured Templar in the Demon infested Fereldan's Tower. You'd think that a freaking ''demon invasion'' would be more important then racial (or would it be occupational) prejudice.

** Er...are you talking about vicariously killing the Templar to save him or letting the demon have him? I've done both, and Wynne is fine with it. Did you make a deal with her?

== Mounts ==

* About mounts:

*** Interesting side note, in a funny graveyard in Haven there's a gravestone that reads "Horses, cloaks and barabarians...RIP.

*** It's also offhandedly mentioned that they're common in Orlais (pretty much necessary when knights there are called Chevaliers), but less so in Ferelden. Though one wonders why no ox models were made to draw the carts instead - if there was time for goats and squirrels, why no oxen?

**** You see a number of dead oxen throughout the game. They're present in the Kocari Wilds, Zevran's ambush, etc.

*** Incidentally, despite of the notable lack of horses, Duncan still comments about how he and the King will ''ride'' to the battle. One can only wonder if he intended to get servants and some coconuts to fill in.

* As a dwarf character, I shared Oghren's disappointment at being unable to ride the dog into battle.

** [[Dungeons and Dragons|Sorry, wrong game]].