Fate stay night/Headscratchers: Difference between revisions

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* On Fate route, when Archer faces Berserker by himself he looses, we already know that since he used a lot of mana healing the wound that saber inflicted on him and because of that he wasn't able to use UBW (because if he was able he should be able to easly defeat him, as gil pointed the fact that berserker is weak to [[Storm of Blades]]) Then if he wasnt able to defeat it via UBW why the hell he didn't traced Berserker's Sword and used Nine Lives Works? As heaven feels shows shiro defeated berserker nine times using Nine Lives Works (well Duh) using archer's power, so if shiro was able why the hell archer wasn't able to do so?

** Because Dark Berserker is explicitly weaker than Heracles in top form, he doesn't have anyone directing him, and he's blind to boot. Berserker's tactics may be [[Attack! Attack! Attack!|fairly straightforward]] while he's under Mad Enhancement, but he's still normally lucid enough to defend himself if need be. In dark form, he was basically blind, rabid, and confused, and ran straight into Shirou's attack (and it didn't help him that he paused a split-second when he heard Ilya's voice, long enough for Shirou to finish him). Also, even if Archer had access to UBW, he would still have had a helluva time fighting Berserker straight-up. It's not that Heracles is weak against [[Storm of Blades]], it's that Gil's Gate of Babylon barrage was forcing him to shield Ilya at the same time (something Archer simply wouldn't do). And even ''then'', Gil actually won the fight by making Berserker sit there and take it with Enkidu.

*** Shirou wasn't unable to see Saber as anything more than a pretty girl who couldn't fight; UBW and HF prove that very conclusively. He doesn't even look down on anyone, he doesn't have the self-image to. Nor is he normally sexist in the least; aside from a throwaway line in Fate about Ayaka needing to be more feminine (which is, interestingly, directly contradicted in UBW), the whole of his "sexist" behavior was his treatment of Saber for half of the Fate route. The whole point of his behavior is that he's ''making himself'' act sexist, because he doesn't know what else to do. His first instinct is to protect everyone (not women, ''[[Chronic Hero Syndrome|everyone]]'') he sees, and he's dealing with the painful double-awareness that not only is Saber directly in line to charge into mortal danger (getting almost killed by Berserker), but he's thoroughly unqualified to do anything about it. There's no logical argument to keep her from fighting, so he resorts to illogic (not helped by the fact that he's somewhat emotionally stunted). He knows she could kick his ass indefinitely, that's why he asks her to train him in swordplay (she opted instead to kick his ass up and down the dojo, teaching him how to dodge and when not to fight).

* How is it that a violent [[Jerkass]] like Gilgamesh is both [[Chaotic Good]] and has a high charisma score?

*** Remember how he bragged that you'd need "three times" the amount of evil in the world to corrupt him? Personally, I think he was lying, and the status screen just wasn't taking the events of the Fourth Grail War into account.

*** He was a prick in the Fourth War too. Basically, he's a little more impulsive now. Not much. Also, here's one possible explanation: His alignment is based on what people ''believe'' him to be. Gilgamesh is generally a positive figure, though also an arrogant jerkass at times. By the standards of his time his mythological attitude would be normal enough. As another point of evidence for this, compare him to Assassin. Assassin never does anything evil. Ever. All he wants is a good fight, but apart from that he's completely honorable. Yet he's Neutral Evil.

**** I'll admit, you've got me there. It may have to do with different interpretations about how Medusa came to be, given that a lot of tales about her origins (including the Nasuverse version) tend to cite her status as a victim in how she became a monster. For example, one version of the myth explains that Medusa was raped by Poseidon in Athena's temple and was turned into a monster as punishment for that. The Nasuverse version of her origin story is fairly sympathetic to her origins as well, so that might explain it.

***** Except that, by the standards of the time, she was ''still'' evil, because being raped by a god was somehow seen as ''her'' fault. Also, that never happened in the FSN universe, apparently.

** Short answer: who? Long answer: Gil's all about killing people, not ruling them (not considering most of the world worthwhile, especially after Enkidu's death); he's a darwinist, not a conqueror. He's a better fit because he's still the oldest hero, and is all about the supernatural connections. As for storywise, I wouldn't doubt that Sargon is a heroic spirit in the [[Nasuverse]], but his legacy is less well-known (though admittedly, how many people know Diarmuid Ua Duibhne?), and he has less of a reason to be summoned than the huge conqueror hero, Iskander, who ''still'' wants to conquer the world.

*** That's not completely true. Gilgamesh does have a sort of "Lol, I kill mongrels" attitude, but to say he's all about killing them and not ruling them is kinda false. He only wants to rule over the worthy people. Way back 5000 years ago, that meant 99% percent of his kingdom from the warriors to the peasants. In the modern world, that may be about .001% of all the people in the world. He's a darwinist, and he has no qualms against killing people, but to say he's all about killing people rather than ruling them is misleading.

** They succeed sometimes. Funny you should bring up airplanes. Gil actually ''does'' have a [[wikipedia:Vimana|flying machine]] in his collection. Berserker shoots it down with an F-15.

*** A ''magic'' F-15. Incidentally, Gil doesn't have ''every'' weapon in the world. He just has weapons that existed in his time. This is why he doesn't have Excalibur, since Excalibur was constructed by Earth's fairies after his death. Incidentally, the [[Nasuverse]] is an [[Alternate Universe]]. Gil at one point states that (paraphrased) "the appearance is different, but the basic principles remain the same", indicating that Babylon was apparently ''just as advanced'', if in a different fashion, as the modern age.

***** Gram was the prototype for ''Caliburn'', aka the Sword in the Stone, not Excalibur.

**** Perhaps we could look at it a different way. At the time of his life, and in his myth, Gilgamesh is said to have possessed everything in the world, thus Gate of Babylon and A rank Golden Rule. What if, instead of everything in Gate of Babylon having actually existed at that point in time...what if instead because of the Myth Gate of Babylon will contain the prototype/super prototype/whatever of every weapon -even if it was created after his time-. So, since the myth says he possessed everything in the world, that will remain true regardless of when he is summoned.

* Servant Saber. All of the other class titles are for people wielding a certain weapon or technique, but the Saber class is named for the weapon itself. Shouldn't the title technically be Sabreur (a person who wields a saber)? Or, since Saber is female and the word comes from French, Sabreuse? ...you know what, never mind, it doesn't bug me as much any more.

** I think it would be Sabrice, actually.

* This is from Fate Zero. Shirou's dad, who has finally gotten to the Holy Grail. He knows that with its power he could end human conflict ''forever''. This has been his life's dream, to make everyone peaceful and happy. So what does he do? He orders Saber to destroy it. So a man whose sole goal is to be the "hero of justice" at any personal cost ''knowingly and willingly'' throws away probably the only chance he'll ever have to bring happiness to all people! Then Shirou does just that as well, rather than wishing for, say, his dream of world peace and happiness to come true. What in the fucking hell?

** Wait...are we talking about the Holy Grail that happens to be the vessel of the literal embodiment of all the world's evil? Nah, there couldn't be a problem with that. Also, pretty sure that someone at some point (Saber, I think) brought up the concept of ending all conflict, and noted that it's actually a really bad idea.

** Seriously, wishing on a corrupted holy grail is not a good idea.

** Aaaand it could end all human conflict by [[Kill'Em All|killing everyone]].

** She has an easier time taking charge when she herself is not in the picture. Rin's character has perpetually shown some kind of vulnerability about herself.

*** Her reluctance to taking off most of her clothes lends credence to this idea.

** As the above troper has noted, Rin prefers to normally lead from outside the picture. When she actually gets directly involved in something she tends to make irrational decisions. Heck, when it comes to emotions, Rin's a [[Glass Cannon]]

*** But she ''was'' in the picture in Fate. [[Dissimile|And when I say "picture", I mean "Saber's vagina".]] She was probably thinking like Shirou, that being forced into having sex with your love interest is awkward. Having a [[Mate or Die]] situation with Saber, a neutral friend, was bearable, so she could as well learn to enjoy it, but she '''really, really, really'' didn't want to have sex with Shirou in this way.

* Whenever she is fighting without her master around, why doesn't Rider ever just take off her blindfold and turn all her opponents to stone? As a matter of fact, wouldn't that be good just to do that in the first place because anyone who saw them would be turned to stone anyway...

** It probably wouldn't have been useful in very many situations. Most of the time she's acting independently, she has a vested interest in ''not'' turning everyone she sees to stone (her Bloodfort probably wouldn't work on statues). As for the other times, there's always the risk that her Master would come in her field of vision during a fight (he usually ''was'' nearby). Also, while she might be able to pick off other Masters that way, Servants are another matter. <s>At least three Servants (Saber, Lancer, and Berserker) are definitely strong enough to resist her eyes, and it ''might'' not work on the others, either.</s>

*** Surely the possibility of her 'Master' coming into her field of vision would be as good a reason as any for her to ''use'' her eyes. I don't think she'd be too upset if he got killed, really....

** I can't think of any good reason myself, save the possibility that petrified bystanders might get you in trouble with the Grail War supervisor.

*** Stoning people is NEVER a good idea. Stone yourself if you have the stuff to spare.

*** Cheech and Chong would clearly be Caster class servants.

** ...AWizardDidIt? Good an answer as any, and they certainly had one available...

*** Who was a rampant dick in his life and was also instrumental in giving Saber one too... Why yes, this troper revels in your [[Fridge Logic]] screams with that statement.

*** Mordra has a better ring to it. Though I suppose if your feminizing from the original Medraut you could opt for Medrau

*** See also: Sir Bedeviere. Merlin was a busy man.

*** Bedivere, at least, apparently knew his king was a girl (he switches to calling her "she" instead of "he" at the last moment). He probably wasn't the only one. Any number of knights might have known the truth but kept their mouths shut because it wouldn't do anyone any good to speak up.

*** Lancelot also knew, as well as Guinevere and what is implied to be all the Knights of the Round - as in, all her closest confidents. Judging by some comments in Fate route it's very likely that a lot of people at least suspected but didn't want to admit it because that meant losing a very good king.

* Also, Archer. We know he has a shield and a lot of swords, so why the hell is it that whenever he takes a blow for Rin he has to do it himself and not, say, use his shield or a random sword for it?

** I'm not sure how difficult or time consuming it would be for archer to conjure up a weapon or shield. Remember that he only gets his instant mass conjuration of weapons ability when he is within his Reality Marble, Unlimited Blade Works. He does seem to conjure up Kansho and Bakuya pretty quick though, maybe because he uses them a lot and they are usually very low ranked weapons.

**** This troper thinks that switching to the more powerful side is less assholeish than just leaving your Master for your own agenda, but... She might be misremembering this, but does Rule Breaker show up in Fate? Has Archer actually ''seen'' it? If not, then he couldn't Trace it beforehand.

***** Pretty sure this is the answer. He only knew of its existence because Shirou and Rin saw it used on Saber. In HF, Shirou saw it himself early on, in a clear example of [[Chekhov's Gun]].

***** The key to that scene is context. If you watch the Bad End for that scene, it's pretty obvious that Archer is trying to get Shiro and Rin out of there alive; he doesn't consider their chances against Caster, Kuzuki ''and'' Saber to be good. You'll notice that in ''all'' the scenes where Archer is an <s>asshole</s> ''complete'' asshole to Rin, there really wasn't a credible alternative; unless you think he should have taken on Gilgamesh without a master. In the later scene where he gave Shinji to Rin, he probably assumed that Rin would use a Command Spell out of desperation and summon Saber, fixing the Shinji problem as well as the Saber protecting Shiro problem in one go.

** It's because at that point in the story, Caster didn't know he could copy other people's weapons, so he didn't want her to know that. Hell, I'm not sure if ''anyone'' knew he could do that (See: Lancer thinking Rho Aias is Archer's Noble Phantasm). Given what he was planning, he probably didn't want to tip his hand on that earlier than needed, and with Caster standing ''right there'' it wasn't really necessary for him to do it himself.

*** I do think she has feelings for Shirou, she did say in HF that she saw Shirou few years back (the time after Kiritsugu died) trying to jump at 'something (is it a pole or a fench) and never giving up even from so much failed attemps (this cue Sakura to make her much jelouse since she thought that, that precious memory was only hers and thought no one even knows about it as well)

**** She does. She was watching the same scene as Sakura was, at the same time, and fell in love with him in just the same way (incidentally, he was attempting to jump a high-jump pole that was set ''way'' too high for him). But, she doesn't rely on him in the same way as Sakura does, because her life doesn't suck anywhere ''near'' as much. As for Sakura becoming jealous, remember that, at that point, she's being ''heavily'' influenced by {{spoiler|Angra Mainyu}}.

 

* Heaven's Feel True End. Sakura uses up all of her Command Spells AND gets poked with Rule Breaker. How is Rider still around two years later?

* Far be it from me to question the inclusion of Sexy Civilian Eyecandy Gilgamesh in UBW, but couldn't Gil have ''won'' that fight with Shirou if he'd actually had his armor? We'd already seen in Fate than [[Armor Is Useless|armor is most definitely]] ''[[Averted Trope|not]]'' [[Armor Is Useless|useless]], and the only reason he didn't pull out Ea was the whole "getting arm hacked off" thing. Granted, he'd have died anyway for unrelated reasons, but still...

** He didn't think he needed it. It's Gilgamesh's [[Fatal Flaw]]. He underestimates his enemies.

** As for the servants... really, what other servants would be safer to travel with than Saber and Berserker, both of whom are damn near godlike with the right masters? Also, it's hard to imagine Ilya being in danger from Berserker, who she controls just fine, and who's proven willing to even defy the laws of reality to protect her. As for sending them in the field...beats the hell out of me. They probably need to be at least ''close'' to the field to catch the servant spirits, but not necessarily in danger. For Ilya, at least, I could say that the Einzberns didn't trust anyone else, but...

*** The other participants know better than to attack Ilya. If she gets seriously damaged, they don't get their wish.

*** Well, Shirou is able to mimic the skill of the original owners of the weapons he projects. I figured Nine Lives was part and parcel of that -- i.e., it's a technique that Heracles mastered in life but couldn't use while insane.

*** Exactly, it's a adapted technique, not a weapon. Well...okay, Nine Lives ''is'' a weapon, but the actual Noble Phantasm is a bow, not a sword. Since I'm pretty sure that axe-sword is unique to this summoning (the catalyst, in fact), that's why I think Heracles uses Nine Lives with that thing at some point, so the "memory" of the technique is in the weapon. ...or, since I tend to overthink things, you're probably right, and Shirou can mimic the Nine Lives attack with any of Heracles' weapons, simply because the weapon ''can'' be used for such.

**** Shirou ''might'' be able to read Ea, if he put enough time and effort into it. Remember when he traced the Gem Sword Zelretch? The same thing happened, but he was eventually able to project it.

*** It took the use of Archer's arm and nearly killed him, but yes...thing is, though, Zelretch is still an earthly weapon. It's a point Shirou shares in common with [[Tsukihime|Shiki]]; neither can understand their chosen aspect (building materials/weaponry and concept of death) for anything originating outside Gaia. Or, to put it another way: Archer explicitly can't project Ea, and he's pretty much a blacksmith god by now.

*** Assassin seems to suggest that the actual man named "Sasaki Kojirou" and whoever wielded the sword Monohoshizao were different people, just as he himself was some unknown swordsman who happened to master a technique attributed to Kojirou. But IRL, is there really any doubt about his existence? I [[Did Not Do the Research|didn't spend more than a few minutes checking on this]], but every source I managed to find seemed to treat it as established fact that Kojirou existed and was killed in a duel against Miyamoto Musashi. No doubt legend has embellished quite a bit about the man, but compared to [[All Myths Are True|all the other mythological heroes that are evidently real]], that's nothing. I liked Assassin's dramatic situation too, but ''come on''.

*** If the game is to be believed, one of the sources who ''never'' mentions him is Musashi himself. Other than that...eh, I'm fine with it. There's only [[Samurai Shodown|one Sasaki Kojirou for me]], anyway. Besides, Assassin's Tsubame Gaeshi technique is a lot cooler than what Kojirou's was supposed to be.

* Unlimited Blade Works. Specifically, the incantation for it. I can understand the Engrishy-ness of it--in fact, I'm surprised it's as comprehensible as it is. What bugs me, though, is that the Engrish version is ''completely different'' from the Japanese version. Not just in wording, but in the entire meaning of each line (though the overall effect is roughly the same). Where the English goes "Steel is my body, and fire is my blood", the Japanese goes "His body is of iron, his heart of glass" and so on and so forth. (Full version [http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Chants_%26_Incantations#Incantations_by_characters here.] I guess the question is, why are the two versions so different, and which one is the "canonical" one?

** That is pretty strange. If either of them is really the "canonical" incantation, it'd probably be the one that Archer actually uses in combat (whether in the VN, anime, or fighting game), so probably the engrish version.

*** Well... while most of the differences are pretty weird, yes, the Japanese can just as well be translated "My body is of iron, my heart of glass" and so forth since the subject is implicit and not explicit. Which makes it sound a lot closer... for the first three lines or so.

** The author, Nasu, likes to play with the difference between pronunciation and meaning, generally by using kanji that say one thing with furigana that make the pronunciation something else. He does this all throughout FSN, especially with the Noble Phantasms (which are themselves an example, being called "hougu" in Japanese, which means "treasure"). For example, Lancer's spear is written as "Barbed Spear of Certain Death" but pronounced Gae Bolg. Excalibur is something like "Golden Sword of Absolute Victory." Reality Marble has the meaning of "innate bounded field." Shirou's spells are also subject to this. He says "Trace On" no matter what he's doing but thinks of a different meaning (and therefore kanji) depending on the spell. This presumably applies to Unlimited Blade Works as well. Archer says his poem in Engrish while thinking the poem in Japanese. One is not necessarily a translation of the other, because both meanings are meant to overlap. Since this is strictly a visual sort of pun, it doesn't really carry over well into voiced adaptations.

*** I see what you mean, especially with regards kouyuu kekkai (aka Reality Marbles) like Mugen no Kensei (literally Infinite Sword Creation), but just as a pointless nitpick, I don't think that applies to the names of the actual Noble Phantasms. Excalibur is the name and pronunciation of the Noble Phantasm itself; "yakusoku sareta shouri no ken" ("Sword of Promised Victory") just looks like a title rather than a pun. Gae Bolg is probably a better example, since that name just translates to "red branch"...though it does happen to have two titles attached to it ("Spear of Impaling Barbed Death" and "Spear of Striking Death Flight," depending on how Lancer uses it).

* Heaven's Feel. Shinji tries to rape Sakura and threatens to tell Shirou about their previous * cough* liasons if she doesn't submit. She's (irrationally but understandably) terrified of the idea and winds up killing him...but why did she take a threat like that seriously at all? Sure, Shinji is clearly unhinged by this point, but surely he'd have enough survival instinct left over to realize that telling your magi brother-in-law, who ''knows'' the kind of abuse and domination you've put his lover through, that you dominated her sexually as well is...a tad unsafe.

* Shirou: How the hell does some random dude whose original parents probably weren't even mages have a Reality Marble like UBW? There is almost no mention (I remember only one flashback where Shirou even recalls his parents) of his parents/lineage. Random mutations caused by the holy grail?

** How did [[Tsukihime|Satsuki]] have enough magic power to become a vampire almost instantly and have a Reality Marble herself? Parentage might be a factor in some cases, but since even the children of mundanes (Shirou, Satsuki, Elesia a.k.a. Ciel) can be born with insane powers, it's not the be-all and end-all.

** It has nothing to do with power or genetics. It's simply the ultimate expression of his mind. A Reality Marble is possible for anyone. It might even be ''easier'' for him to have a Reality Marble than anyone else because his psych was basically destroyed and then rewritten in the fire before Kiritsugu saved him.

*** Don't forget that Kiritsugu integrated Avalon, a sheath with Shirou. He became a container for swords, so his mind was filled with swords.

*** That's not really contradicting what I said. Sakura blew his artificial heart up, not Lancer. Lancer definitely destroys the heart, while what Sakura did is left rather vague. She destroyed the artificial heart, which could mean she retracted the power of curses used to sustain it. Then he merely has a mortally wounded heart in an otherwise absurdly healthy body. So he's still dying, just not the instant death from blood loss, shattered ribs and whatnot the original bullet from Kiritsugu would have done. Also, you might be thinking of the lance from [[Fate/Zero]]. The short one of Diarmuid's lances that I don't recall the name of inflicted unhealable wounds. Gae Bolg is special because it will ''always'' inflict a fatal blow when it's name is called. The wounds also do not heal ''easily'' but they ''do'' heal. The difference appears to make it so the [[Healing Factor]] of a Servant reduces it to a wound that would be like a normal lance wound for a human. Or something that could completely heal in about a week or two, which is still faster than what humans can do but not nearly the normal ability of a Servant.

*** Gae Buidhe, incidentally.

*** True. Zero Lancer has the truly "unhealable wounds" thing going, though. Saber recovered from Gae Bolg on her own, eventually.

*** Actually, Saber doesn't recover from it on her own. I think she at one point mentions that the wound is still there, but she could patch up most of the superficial damage with mana or something.

* Gil, or specificaly Gil's wish to create a world only filled with worthy people; why the hell didn't he want to revive Enkidu? Given how he exclaims at length about the Enkidu's death in the Epic you would think that his ''first'' goal would be to revive Enkidu rather than "cleansing" the world.

** Enkidu would also surely be a Heroic Spirit. If Lancelot is, or ''Bluebeard'' no reason he wouldn't be. He's not really 'dead' in the sense a normal person would be. Only a real nut like the already mentioned Bluebeard would want to bother reviving someone who isn't any deader than they themselves are.

*** Saber is a possession to him. As far as he is concerned, the world already belongs to him anyway. Also, does this Gilgamesh really seem like the type of guy that would be very concerned about his friends? Maybe Gilgamesh from the Epic would be, but this one seems quite a bit more of a [[It's All About Me|self centered]] [[Jerkass]]. Not that we would consider the original a paragon of virtue, either, but still.

*** His FSN bio is almost entirely about Enkidu, actually (with a bit at the end about immortality and the snake), but I agree with you on the characterization thing.

*** It actually says he's chaotic good, not lawful. Most likely the alignment thing is for how people see them ie. Sasaki Kojirou is neutral evil... despite doing no evil deeds in the story. Rider is Chaotic Good despite having essentially the same motives as Lancer, minus the [[Blood Knight]] thing but plus sucking blood for shits and giggles.

**** Although in F/Z, he does apparently seems to follow the laws he set in his life.

***** Fate Zero explains that he found Enkidu's devotion even unto death to be very beautiful. After he failed in his quest to revive Enkidu, he appears to have accepted his death as beautiful in its own way. He likes people who sacrifice themselves or have self-images that depend only on others. This is why he likes Kirei and Saber; they both remind him of Enkidu.

* Why in the ''world'' is Shinji "Shirou's friend"...ever? Even in the start of the game we know that Shirou is aware that Shinji ''beats'' Sakura. For someone who has such stupid "ideals" regarding women; he sure doesn't apply them here. "Shinji shouldn't do that." ....you think? STOP HIM, MR. HERO.

** I think it was an unused sprite that they just threw in there because they couldn't find a place to use it. Could be wrong though.

* How did Kuzuki kill Rider? Kotomine and True Assassin both note that although Kotomine is quite a bit tougher than True Assassin, he's incapable of killing him because one is a human and the other is a spirit. In [[Fate/Zero]] Kiritsugu also notes that there's no point in sniping at Servants because it won't do anything, and he's using some pretty badass guns. I can accept Shirou taking down Berserker because he's using her Noble Phantasm which is ''not'' a normal weapon or even a Conceptual one ''and'' he has some of her power behind it as well... but Kuzuki just used magically enhanced fists. Not even a Conceptual Weapon. And he killed her in one blow?

*** It's only a reinforcement spell. That means it increases the 'ability' of whatever it's put on, like a sword is stronger and sharper, fists can do more damage, legs can jump higher and run faster etc. It just makes stuff somewhat better at doing whatever the normally do. Shouldn't that mean that Kuzuki's fists would instead only be capable of stuff like punching through walls unharmed? The basic properties of his hands have not been changed, their effectiveness is merely increased. A Servant is made of Prana, basically, so there isn't much you can do against it through mere physical means.

*** I always chalked it up to Caster's magic being really damn strong. She's already good enough to reinforce another person ''at all'', and she can do things that would be considered Sorcery by a lot of modern magi, so it's possible she's just that good with reinforcement magic, as opposed to, say, Shirou's capability.

*** In Japan, you do need someone else to sign for you if you're underage (when I was there last year, underage was below 20). I don't know if it works differently for emancipated minors, though.

** Magi disapprove of technology and are in general quite disdainful of it. Tohsaka's a little more relaxed about it, but honestly, with her upbringing and focus on 'doing what a magus is supposed to do' would she really use something as high tech as a cell phone? And the only person around to sign up Shirou for a phone is Taiga, who is insane and wouldn't want him calling anyone in private [[Shipper on Deck|unless it was Sakura]]. Apart from them, who else is likely to? Definitely not Ilya.

** It ''is'' a Noble Phantasm. One which can survive Berserker's attacks. If he wasn't a Berserker, he could use {{spoiler|Nine Lives}} with it.

** Technically, that's because the Nine Lives technique itself became a Noble Phantasm. The reason no one tries to destroy his sword is because they can't. Partly because the thing is clearly reinforced somehow (it's been used to parry countless actual [[N Ps]]), and partly because regardless of D&D rules, deliberately sundering a weapon is extremely difficult...even when the weapon isn't being wielded by an insanely quick and powerful giant.

**** Berserker's sword is part of the temple which the Einzbern's used to summon him. Even if its not a Noble Phantasm, it's probably a ''lot'' more durable than it looks. I personally think it's a fossilized remnant of Hercules's bow.

**** Valid point, but Kuzuki never came into contact with the blade's edge. He just caught it by catching the sides of the blade. And Shirou blocked the pole of Gae Bolg. Once Lancer actually stabbed at Shirou, the poster was pierced easily.

**** Wait, things get stronger with age? That... denies all common sense. And if every weapon left lying around in a temple (Or indeed made from a temple) became a conceptual weapon, then the world would be awash with them.

**** Some weapons do get stronger from age. They accumulate history and become mysteries or something like that. And the club wasn't just left in any temple. It was part of Heracle's own temple, meaning that it was probably from the age of the gods, since that's apparently when Caster and Rider are from. Something like that, even if it did not reach the level of conceptual weapon, would have at least accumulated enough history to become a mystery. Which is pretty much what Noble Phantasms are, powerful mysteries.

*** What? It doesn't even have to be part of the visual novel. I'm talking about supplementary material here.

**** To write out Archer's life is to basically open up an entire new timeline. That would be far too much trouble for what it's worth. Imagine, for example, if Archer's story expanded the [[Nasuverse]] timeline by fifty years. Now, imagine if Tsukihime 2 is released afterwards, and set ten years after the current timeline's present, happened to involve an invasion of dragons that completely changed the political landscape of the Church and Mage Institute. Now, you'd then have to fit an explanation of why this invasion of dragons didn't occur in Archer's timeline, which would then cause a snowball effect as you have to explain why everything else that then happens after Tsukihime 2 in the main timeline didn't happen in Archer's timeline. Basically, you've opened up an entire new continuity. It's different for games with multiple routes like Fate or Tsukihime, since branching events explain why the villains of each route are different and explanations in each route also expand upon events that happened in the other routes. You wouldn't have this interdependency if you wrote a light novel about Archer's life, you'd have a massive [[Continuity Snarl]] and massive restrictions on the changes you could bring to the main Nasuverse timeline. Imagine if Heaven's Feel had Type Mercury show up for no reason and blow everything up, and then Shirou had to learn the mystic ways of frogs to defeat it. The question would then be; ''why doesn't the mystic ways of frogs come up in other routes''?

***** The problem here is that having no evidence that the Fate universe and the Tsukihime universe are not connected is not the same thing as having evidence that they are connected. Whatever happened in Archer's timeline doesn't necessarily have to happen in any other timeline. Just because something happens in this hypothetical Tsukihime 2 plot does not mean that it happened in Archer's life. I'm not seeing what you mean that any story about Archer's life would having to fit into the Nasuverse due to being a possible future of Shirou's. Archer's timeline is already different from any of the routes we played in Fate/Stay Night. It's quite probable that major events that happened in Archer's life might never happen in the Tsukihime continuity or the three fate/stay night routes.

****** Dude. The point isn't that it's ''impossible'', it's that it's ''way too much trouble to produce''. That was the original question; "why doesn't Type Moon produce an Archer story?" Especially since we ''know everything we need to know about Archer already''. Any story about Archer's life would be directly related to internal Magic Association and Church politics, so to do it properly Type Moon would have to produce a lot of material, which would be effort better spared towards an actual sequel to ''Fate''. This is the reason Archer's flashforwards/flashbacks in the game are so vague. Little vignettes showing Archer's life - like the Shikiller dealing with the Forest - are much more likely than a light novel series. That would be cool.

* Why is Gilgamesh arguing with Sakura in the prologue? Gil has no contact with Zouken or anything like that.

** If anything, it might have something to do with Kotomine. Zouken aside, Sakura is still a Master, even though she ceded control of Rider to Shinji. Kotomine isn't likely to leave the church before the Grail War actually starts, and Lancer is clearly off doing something else...maybe he sent Gil to figure out what was going on (or at least confirm, since something similar happened in Fate/Zero with Lancer).

** I was under the impression he could tell Sakura was a Grail and was checking out the competition. I'm pretty sure Sakura mentions he told her she should kill herself when they met. Gil probably didn't act because she was a nonentity until HF, where he did try and eliminate her.

** Yeah, in the scene in HF where Gilgamesh tries to kill Sakura, she says that he had told her to kill herself before.

* Shouldn't Taiga, the English teacher, know that Saber isn't a normal English name?

** She was introduced as a friend of Kiritsugu, and Kiritsugu had very odd friends.

* What does Gilgamesh even need to eat orphans for? He has a real body now so he no longer needs a constant mana source to exist. He could presumably charge up to his full capacity on his own, since he has ten years with pretty much nothing to do. It's not like he went around blasting off his noble phantasms for no reason so he needed the mana. Why would he need the mana provided by the orphans other than to be "Yes I am Evil, hahaha"?

** He was able to support himself, perhaps, but it's not like he never planned to use those Noble Phantasms ever again. By the time the next War came around, without that constant mana source, he'd have been even weaker than Saber, stranded without a Master ''or'' a connection to the Grail.

** Yes, her contract is nullified following the Fate route. The exact reason ''why'' isn't certain. It is either because she ''willfully'' destroyed the Grail (as opposed to in the previous war, where she was fighting against the command), or else because Shirou convinced her that she shouldn't change the past, and thus that she should cancel the contract. As a result, she will become an ordinary Heroic Spirit, because her deal was to become a ''Counter Guardian'' (what Archer is) in return for obtaining the Grail. She doesn't need to have a contract with the world to become a Heroic Spirit, because she's a hero. Because she was alive during the war, she would indeed remember Shirou if she was summoned (assuming that he summoned the version of her from the Fate route, as opposed to one of the hundreds of other versions...). However, summoning a servant without the power of the Holy Grail is simply not possible, because it requires too much prana. And, even if he ''could'' summon her, he couldn't sustain her without the Grail's help (although Rin and Sakura demonstratably ''could''). As for the general Nasuverse afterlife, there isn't one. When someone dies, their soul disperses and returns to the Akasha to be recycled. The only exception to this is if the soul in question has made a contract to become a Counter Guardian (like Archer) or is powerful enough to be elegible for the Throne of Heroes (as Saber would almost certainly be). So, no, ''her'' soul won't vanish after she dies, but the souls of all the ''human'' characters (Rin, Sakura, Shirou etc.) will, unless they make a contract to become a Counter Guardian.

** Or unless they perform sufficient deeds to reach the Throne of heroes, as it is hinted Shirou does.

** There actually ''is'' another way for someone to escape the cycle, after a fashion. It involves imprinting your soul with your personality and memory (a.k.a. [[Tsukihime|the Roa method]]). It's imperfect, but it works.

* Sakura's (potential) fate. In Fate and UBW, because her backstory is never touched on, one can assume she's still being mutilated and at constant odds with worms...

** She might ''be'' fine, actually. It's pretty firmly implied in HF that this is Zouken's last shot; his mind and soul are rapidly degrading, and he actually notes early on that Sakura's quality as a Grail is the ''only'' thing in his favor, and that in fact pretty much all of the other circumstances in the war make it a very bad time to enact his plans, but he goes ahead with them anyway. Possibly in the other two routes he degraded even more quickly and simply doesn't have enough intellect left to be a threat by the time the Holy Grail War rolls around. I can even think of a little evidence of that; in UBW, there's mention that the Matou estate still has a number of his insects in the cellar, but the only activity they take the entire route is to cower in terror of Gilgamesh wn he's in the manor. Now, it's possible that Zouken is out of town or something and they were just familiars he left behind... but it's also possible that the worms in question ''were'' Zouken, his mind so rotted that he's no longer capable of sentient thought. This would mean that with Shinji either dead or with the bastard scared out of him, Sakura is basically free and clear. Just my personal hopes, of course, but doesn't the thought of Zouken [[Fate Worse Than Death|forever left a mindless, insane mass of worms in a basement somewhere, tormented for all eternity and unable to do anything about it]], just make you feel warm and fuzzy inside?

*** However, it's also outright ''stated'' in HF that this war isn't Zouken's last chance, that he was planning on waiting for the next war and that the only reason he activated Sakura was ''because'' she was so compatible with the Grail (because, unlike him, she ''wouldn't'' survive until the next war). He was certainly around at the beginning of the war, at least, for two reasons. Firstly, all three routes follow a common back story, and there's no time when he ''could'' have died before the point where HF splits from the other two routes, and secondly if he were dead Sakura would either have refused to summon Rider or would have taken Rider and used her to ''protect'' Shirou, rather than putting both her brother (who she cares about, despite everything) and Shirou in a position where they have to fight one another. The only reason she refused to fight is because agreeing to fight would have led to something like HF, where Sakura used her magic to absorb the servants, and she knew that she would be ''forced'' to fight (and probably kill) Shirou. As for Zouken, the worms in the basement almost certainly ''are'' him. However, that is perfectly normal for him, and given the circumstances going into worm form is the best option. It proves nothing about his sanity, as wonderful as your idea sounds.... Also, even if he is gone, Sakura still has the worms (including the one containing his soul) inside her, although admittedly without Zouken there to use them they aren't a threat to her, so she can simply go and find someone to ''remove'' them.

** Sakura's most likely fine. The fifth Grail War is officially the last one (Waver Velvet dismantles the system for summoning and using the grail). Zouken would have no further reason to use Sakura; his goal was to possess someone capable of using Heaven's Feel, not simply have someone powerful to possess (his body and soul are rotting too quickly for that to be anything but delaying the inevitable), and while he's certainly a [[Complete Monster]], his insanity and exceedingly rare acts of whimsical compassion mean it's probably not in-character for him to do anything just [[For the Evulz]]. As for Shinji, he's dead in Fate, and it's very strongly implied that he's been scared straight into a [[Heel Face Turn]] in Unlimited Blade Works.

*** Whilst the fifth war is indeed the last one, that doesn't necessarily mean that Zouken isn't going to try ''something else''. It's possible that he'll just realise that he's screwed and give up (in which case he'll likely die almost immediately, since staying alive for a few extra years isn't worth the effort), but it's more likely that he'll try to find another way to gain immortality. In that case, Sakura is useful to him because she can provide him with an ''heir'' (after which he'll likely kill her as he did Shinji's mother), if nothing else, and having a puppet is always handy. And, as an absolute last resort, he can take her body to allow himself to survive. However, either of these things provide at least a ''glimmer'' of hope for her, because with the Grail dismantled, he's likely to be desperate, which will likely mean that he'll be forced to throw caution to the wind and act more openly. Of course, the person whose job it is to ''stop'' him in that case just so happens to be Sakura's sister (assuming he remains in Fuyuki, anyway), so there's at least a ''chance'' of her being saved. Similarly, if she is forced to have a child, Sakura herself will likely ''have'' to seek help, because whilst she's happy to accept that she'll spend the rest of ''her'' life as Zouken's puppet rather than risk Shirou coming to harm, it's unlikely that she'd be willing to sacrifice her own child in that way.

* Why did Saber Arturia only show up for the Fourth and Fifth Wars? According to her, her deal with the World was to be summoned to every opportunity to find the Holy Grail. Even if the Masters didn't have anything of her shouldn't she still have somehow been summoned to the First through Third Wars as well?

** No artifact, no summoning. Not even the world can break the rules of summoning.

** That Independent Action stat really isn't just for show. Anyway. Servants are absurdly durable if their cores remain intact. Even after all that punishment, his core was undamaged, so he survived. It helps that Servants don't bleed to death. Presumably he has some method of restoring his mana, which he did offscreen.

*** This could be a funny WMG entry: "Archer commits mass murder elsewhere to save everyone at the end of UBW."

**** Heroic spirit's weaponry is made of mana, right? Obviously Archer ATE the swords that were impaling him.

* It's really more of a [[What If]] thing, but it's been bugging me so I guess it goes here. What if Rin didn't revive Shirou? What would have happened then? I mean, I imagine Sakura would basically shatter (though what would happen next is kind of an unknown) and that Archer would... well, who knows what the hell would happen to him, Ilya and Shinji would probably react in some fashion, and Taiga, I have no clue what she'd do (she's basically a yakuza princess and if Shirou died there would be some hell to pay).

* Please tell me I`m not the only one bugged by this. During Fate route, Ilya paralyzed Shirou with her Mystic Eyes, then she took him home when he was unconscious. A little girl who was alone at that moment kidnapped a teenager from the city park to her house located at the outskirts of the city. In broad daylight. And she laughs at him for falling for that so easily, while she explicitly told him before that she can`t harm him during the daytime...

** The playground they were in was explicitly deserted, and she went there for the express purpose of capturing him, since Saber was apparently in no condition to fight. It's also more than likely she brought Sella or Leysritt along to transport him...besides, she ''didn't'' harm him.

*** Arturia isn't real in the same sense as the others are. When any other Heroic Spirit gets summoned you're summoning the spirit into a prepared body. That's why the Classes exist. When you summmon Arturia you are actually summoning the flesh and blood person Arturia from the point she made her deal with the World. That's why she doesn't have Avalon when Kiritsugu and Shirou summon her, it's because at that point in time she had lost it. If you were summoning the Heroic Spirit Arturia she would still have Avalon. As for False Assassin, all that he seems certain about is that someone came up with his famous technique and that someone named Koujirou actually existed.

* During that night in the ruins, in the Fate route, when they [[Deus Sex Machina|need to give Saber more magical energy or she would disappear]], Rin explains to the reluctant Shirou that the sperm of magi contains a lot mana or something just about as squicky. Well, I can accept that, what with the whole H-game thing... But if that's true, than what reason did ''Rin'' have to have sex with Saber? Except for the obvious [[Psycho Lesbian|"She really wanted to."]] She didn't have any sperm to put there. right?...

* Another thought for the ruins night: couldn't Shiro have given up his rights as master and have Rin make a new contract with Saber? I was kinda disapointed that this kind of Rin/Saber dual route didn't show up.

** Probably doesn't matter either way, since with a few exceptions, all the Servants are simply copies of the heroes in question. Still...probably the latter, in a way. Ultimately, everything returns to Akasha, including mana, and most of the servants ''are'' mana. The image I'd always had of the Third Magic was the incomplete version creating copies of the heroes in the first place and keeping them in the world (Gaia considers them contradictions, which is why they can't stay long), and the complete version forming them into a ram and slamming their way back to the Root. Most of the servants wind up where they were going anyway, Alaya snatches back its Counter Guardians, and the world sends Arturia back to her time.

*** They use the energy from the soul tunneling back to the Throne to open the hole to the Root.

** Actually, turns out [http://i56.tinypic.com/29xfcz4.png there is]. I was wrong on that.

* Heavens Feel; If Shiro is able to use Rule Breaker to free Sakura from Angra Mainyu's control, why couldn't he do the same to free Saber? Please tell me.

* So, Mordred is a homonculus. A magical construct who's creation involves sperm. From queen Arturia. Who is a female. What. The. Frag.

**** [http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_minor_characters_in_the_Fate_series#Merlin Sorta confirmed by the Type Moon Wiki]

***** Nasu, you dick. Now I'll never be able to look at the beautiful warrior-queen again without imagining her as a brainwashed futanari of /d/oom.

* Right, this one is somewhat meta, but...now DO you need a Summoning Catalyst to call upon a Servant or not? And what is this about similar personalities to the master? I think I read somewhere that if a Summoning is done without a catalyst, the Servant will be similar in personality to the master. But all the summonings I can think of that were supposedly done without catalyst, there was one anyway! For Saber, it was Avalon. For Archer, it was Rin's crystal necklace thing. Caster in Zero...probably the book that contained the summoning rite as well? I'm not sure, but I don't remember any summon clearly stated to be conducted without catalyst. Actually, wasn't there a point somewhere where it was outright said that you DO need a catalyst every time? And if Saber was actually summoned via catalyst, is the obvious idealism, self-sacrificing nature and unreachable dream that they have in common just a coincidence?

** It's stated that the catalyst is always needed. The "Servent-similar-personality" thing is a Wild Mass Guessing from Rin and associates.

*** No, it's not. Whilst most summoners do indeed have a catalyst, that isn't always the case (the master of Caster in the fourth war didn't, for instance). However, if the master performs a summoning without a catalyst, then they ''become'' the catalyst, hence the personality match.

***** A catalyst is always needed according to Archer who explicitly says so in UBW before he fights Shirou at the Einzbern Castle. However instead of a catalyst a simple call to any Servant can be done, as Rin intended (though she specifically wanted a Saber class Servant). Heroic Spirits/Reverse Heroes/Anti-Heroes choose to answer a summoner's call. Catalysts are merely needed to make a summoning call to a specific spirit. Theoretically a Heroic Spirit can decline the call if they so chose. Fate/Zero implies that Kariya did not use a catalyst but rather Zouken wanted him to simply call any Berserker. Lancelot answered Kariya's call because their personalities align (Noble but tragically fallen figues). That's what happens when a catalyst isn't used; Uryuu summoned Caster because they are both serial killers who enjoy praying on children and see killing as an art. Personality overlap is why Caster answered Uryuu's summoning ritual.

* Gilgamesh seems to have a certain dislike of mongrels, but according to the legend, wasn't Gilgamesh himself somewhat of a mongrel? Two thirds god and one third human?

*** Exactly the above. Zashuu has no literal English equivalent. Mongrel/low-born is how it is often rendered in English for Type-MOON translations. [[Taka Jun]] talked about this years ago on mirrormoon when talking about his translation choices. Gilgamesh essentially views others as being inferior to him, hence the insult.

* Do we ever find out why Shirou is bleeding in the morning of the 3. day?

*** Yeah, it's the command spell.

* What is with all the [[Gender Flip|Gender Flips]]? I actually found Arturia pretty damn novel, but now that the franchise has progressed we've also got Nero, Francis Drake, and Jack the Ripper. And I'm only willing to forgive Jack the Ripper, because at least his real identity is still a mystery.

** The official line is that it ''has'' to be Hassan primarily because according to the rules, a person who embodied the perfect assassin would never truly be known and thus could not become a Heroic Spirit. However, since the word "Assassin" has its etymological roots in the Hashshashin's founded and led by the Hassans, they are able to be linked to the Grail. Aberrations and questions about certain Servants (like Herakles) do occur though.

*** In the case of the Fuyuki Grail System the word "Assassin" is used as a catalyst to summon a Hassan (it seems that what kind of Hassan depends on summoner's personality), so that is why they supposedly ''have'' to be summoned. But it is shown that other servants have traits for the Assassin class (Kojiro is an odd case in both summoning and class placement but due to him having Assassin class attributes he still qualified for it a little bit)

** The four petal version is Shirou's weaker version which relies on his own skills. When he's pulling on Rin as a battery, he can summon the full version.

* Alright, this is a silly one, but it still annoys me. Is there any other explanation than pure, storywise disconnected h-writing for the fact that Saber knows how to do oral sex? Why would ''King Arthur'' of all people ever have to do that? Especially since it's made rather clear that Saber is still a virgin and really had no intimate connections with anyone when she was king, being alone is one of her major characteristics. I mean, I can think up several ways she could acquire experience with blowjobs without losing her virginity, but they all feel incredibly degrading to her proud, dignified character and seem like out of a really bad fanfic or something...

* Sakura's worms dramatically increase her sexual aggression and inhibit her control or whatever, right? Then instead of letting Shinji rape her, why doesn't she just go and jump Emiya's bones? She ''really'' likes him already, ''he'' likes ''her'', Taiga [[Shipper on Deck|approves of them having a relationship]]...... I ''know'' she's trying to be a [[Yamato Nadeshiko]], but it seems like there's an [[Idiot Ball]] in play somewhere....

 

[[Category:Fate/stay night]]