Fate stay night/WMG: Difference between revisions

*** Actually, ''[[Melty Blood]]'' is the one that's supposed to follow Satsuki's ending, and it's comparatively straightforward. If ''Kagetsu Tohya'' follows any ending, it's either Arcueid's or Ciel's Good ending (since Arcueid is still around)...'course, that's just the setup; the rest of the game plays hopscotch with route canon.

*** Details are only hinted at for Satsuki's route, so anyone could have made an appearance there. Also, it seems a fair assumption that the basic gist of Kagetsu Tohya is canon in that Len made him dream stuff, he saw and fought his nightmare Nanaya and made a contract with Len. Those elements all turn up in Melty Blood, implying a direct sequel. All five main heroines are around in both, with Satsuki's status left very vague - this troper can only remember one reference where in Arihiko's side story, he mentions that she also fully recognized Shiki's proximity to death - meaning she could be dead or alive there, which seems to be the difference between her Normal and True ends. To avoid getting too off topic, just going to say that it seems unlikely Melty Blood wouldn't also include Kagetsu Tohya based off that, and therefore it's rather difficult to exclude it from following the same end.

*** Hey guys, are you forgetting the talk the girls had in the Plus Disk? In it, they say the canon ending is Arc's Good Ending, with things from the others' routes happening in the middle of it. There's no reason Satsuki isn't one of those "other routes".

** Just out of curiosity, but exactly where is this (that stuff about the grail system being dismantled) shown or mentioned? Is it in Fate/Zero, Hollow Ataraxia, or some other source?

== Saber Lily is an echo of an Arturia whose gender was accepted by the Britons ==

Clearly, that outfit is not trying to disguise her gender. In some [[Alternate Universe]]; Arturia was a full-fledged [[Lady of War]]. This lead to events changing so that Arturia didn't lose Caliburn. For some reason, Saber can access this self in ''Unlimited Codes'' although her memories are still of this universe

* Darn it. I was going to say that one! Or rather, that Saber Lily was a younger version of Saber. The outfit definitely makes her look as such.

== The Einzberns had connections to the [[Nazis With Gnarly Weapons|Nazi Party.]] ==

** As insane as this theory is it makes a disturbing amount of sense. The Nazi party was obsessed with Occult and Religious artifacts. The Einzberns are obsessed with gaining the Holy Grail and will do ANYTHING to get it. Interestingly enough, grail wars happen every 60 years on average + or minus 10 years, with the last one happening far faster then it should have. Time that out. 5th war: 2005-ish, 4th war: 1995-ish, 3rd war...1935-ish. Right in the Golden years of the Nazi Party.

**** I Find this whole thing amusing as while Heavens Feel does make you feel guilty about whats happening to Sakura it actually made me like Ilya a hell of a lot more then Sakura, whereas the whole route is literally a "what stupid thing will Sakura do next" festival, Ilya always seems to try and help Shirou even though she knows that in the end a sacrifice will be necessary between the three of them. Also considering what her life has been like (Parental abandonment, training from hell that nearly killed her, constant manipulation and borderline brainwashing, no friends besides her maids...which she made herself) she has it nearly as bad as Sakura does. Mind you I don't dislike Sakura, its just the whole route is caused by her mistakes

***** You do know, right, that Ilya knows the identity of the shadow from the very ''beginning'', and further has magic which could quite possibly have helped Sakura? She is sure as hell not blameless. On the other hand, of the main cast Sakura is probably the ''least'' to blame for what happens in HF, because she had no control over most of it. Could you please name the mistakes that she made? Because, other than running to Zouken (which was indeed stupid, but understandable given the situation), I can't think of a single one.

***** Well, you're probably right about Sakura (in terms of "not being [[Badass]] enough"), but she's like that for a ''reason''. It would not make sense, given her situation, for her to be fighting, because the worms mean that she cannot fight only for herself. If she fights, she's fighting for ''Zouken'', with all the potential bad things that that entails, and thus it makes sense for her to reject doing so, especially with Shirou involved. Further, whilst I'd agree that she's not "[[Badass]]", she is also ''not'' defined solely by being a [[Woobie]]. She has her own personality, with her own strengths and weaknesses, just like everyone else, and she is actually a ''very'' strong girl. Plus, she shows in HF (when Rin confronts her and threatens Shirou) that she is ''perfectly'' willing to fight provided she has a cause to fight ''for''. It's just that her lack of self-confidence, her self-loathing and the fact that she can't fight for herself without risking harming others (due to Zouken's power over her) means that she ''chooses'' not to. As for Saber, the argument you gave applies equally the other way. If ''Saber'' is blameless for what happened in HF, then so is Sakura. So, if some idiot Saber fan is going to come on and complain about Sakura turning into a "mass-murdering abomination" to try to justify not caring about her, then I don't see anything wrong with pointing out that Saber was ''supporting'' her....

* Well, yeah, maybe that mass-murdering abomination thing was a little undiplomatic. I just felt like being blunt. Kinda like what Rin did when she wa fighting Dark Sakura with Zelretch. Then again, that got her mind raped. Anyway, it's not that I hate Sakura. I have no reason to. It's just that I didn't feel particularly affected by her plight for some reason and seeing all the trouble that she's (indirectly and blamelessly) causing kind of made me wonder if it's all worth it. Fiction is a strange thing. So is affection. One person may get attached to a certain character, another may hate them. But the general consensus depends on how the whole thing is presented. I get what they want to say, really, the poor girl, suffering so incredibly much, yet still being brave and holding out. It just somehow didn't work that well on me. Really, we could launch an endless philosophical discussion here on morality, blame, inherent evil and the right to exist, but where would that lead us? The situation in Heaven's Feel is obviously a choice between two evils, saving Sakura and letting her alter ego go on killing sprees in the meantime or putting an innocent girl down. So, seeing the consequences, there would obviously be a few people who'd instead prefer the Mind Of Steel ending. My guess for why: Time. It's just that HF is the third and last route and players already went through two routes, got to know the other heroines and experienced a lot with them. Plus, we are talking about a verse here where the [[Dysfunction Junction]] runs wild. But in Fate and UBW, Sakura barely had a role bigger than Taiga. By the point HF starts, there's a good chance most players would've already picked their favorites. Of course, obviously every route has a new heroine, but still, certain appeals will already be present. Now not only in that route do we have to "really" get to know Sakura, while Saber and Rin basically shared the last two routes equally, we also get presented with her whole tragic backstory and all. It's further "shoehorned" in when they get rid of Saber to make some extra space for Rider (who, I think, still didn't get enough screentime). So, maybe it all would have been more effective if the routes had played out differently, had given the player more time to get to learn the "normal" Sakura before coming out with her own backstory and route, to create more of a "We've been through so much, I can't let her down now!" feeling, if you get my drift. Or that's my guess what went wrong, anyhow.