Grey and Gray Morality: Difference between revisions
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{{trope}}
{{quote|'''Wesley:''' There is a line, Lilah, black and white, good and evil.<br />
'''Lilah:''' Funny thing about black and white. You mix it together and you get grey. And it doesn't matter how much white you try and put back in, you're never gonna get anything but grey.|''[[
In an all-grey conflict, neither side is [[Black and White Morality|totally good or completely evil]]. Both sides have a strong, justifiable reason for fighting, and contain a mixture of people of all kinds, from admirable, upstanding individuals to vicious, slimy scumbags.
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== Anime & Manga ==
* The entire Mahorafest arc of ''[[
** Later events {{spoiler|show pretty unambiguously that Chao could have improved on the actual outcome, if allowed to win. The best argument against her is "But she might get corrupted by power". Well, and the fact that even when she explained what was going on, she downplayed it to such a level that it didn't seem worth the risk to let her succeed.}}
** Negima ''loves'' this trope, as the [[Big Bad]]'s ultimate goal is to ''save the world''. The only reason Negi opposes him is because said [[Big Bad]] is causing ''massive'' amounts of collateral damage in the process, and Negi wants to prevent that; they're basically fighting over who can do a better job of saving the world.
* ''[[Nausicaa of the Valley
* In ''[[
** The monkeys are really creepy, but their situation makes it kind of understandable why they would resolve to [[I'm a Humanitarian|such drastic measures]].
* ''[[
* The third season of ''[[
** To a lesser extent, the ambitions of the [[Big Bad]] in the obscure video game ''Slayers Wonderful'' can be interpreted as this, as {{spoiler|the scientist Viola (the antagonist) wishes to seal magic in order to stop the warring between humans and those above them.}} Once again, though, it shows [[A Lighter Shade of Gray]].
* ''[[Gundam]]'' has made a point of this trope since [[Mobile Suit Gundam|the original series]]. Although the antagonists, Zeon, are generally seen as more evil than the Federation, the reasons that Zeon went to war are understandable and realistic, and the Federation commits its fair share of atrocities across the series as well. In the end, there are good and bad people on both sides of every conflict, and neither side is wholly Evil or Good.
** ''[[Gundam Wing]]'' started off with the heroic Colonies rebelling against the evil Alliance and later OZ, but by the end, it was really hard to tell which side we were supposed to be rooting for.
*** This is further illustrated by looking at the [[Fandom]]. Fans (and, okay, the creators themselves) consider Treize and Zechs (along with a couple others) to be 'good guys' right along with the Gundam pilots, even though they mostly fought on opposite sides. It's the [[Manipulative Bastard|manipulative bastards]] like Quinze and Dekim who are considered the 'villains'.
** ''[[Mobile Suit Gundam 00]]'': The protagonists are more or less trying to force the world into peace. Unlike most ''Gundam'' series, none of the major nations are really much more corrupt or violent than in real life. However, in the second season, the various sides of the conflict become much more black and white, as the protagonists start acting on free will and the world seemingly unites under the [[The Federation]], which being [[Deconstructed Trope]] has suddenly become much more evil, despite containing many of the sympathetic antagonists of the first season.
** ''[[Gundam Seed]]'' has a variation of the [[Enemy Mine]] situation, where most of the protagonists and antagonists previously seen find out that the sides they work for are not as gray as they thought, so they rebel and join forces to form another group to fight both of them.
** ''[[Gundam AGE]]'' starts with an attack by the Unknown Enemy on the long-since peaceful Federation... {{spoiler|who abandoned hundreds of Mars colonists to agonizing disease rather than own up to the project being a terrible mistake, and they're still in the habit of rewriting history to be favorable to them. The UE are the descendents of those colonists, who want to return to Earth and get some revenge along the way.}} By the third generation, [[The Hero|Flit Asuno]] and [[Big Bad|Lord Ezelcant]] want to [[Not So Different|exterminate the other side]] more than anything else.
* The entire point of ''[[
{{quote| "There are few wars between good and evil; most are between one good and another good." }}
* By the end of ''[[
* ''[[Noir (
* ''[[
** In the end, {{spoiler|Evening Primrose}} landed in more white territory - when they found out that there is a [[Take a Third Option|third option]] in which {{spoiler|neither Contractors nor Japan are destroyed}}, they went for it.
* ''[[
* The battles between the Marines and Pirates in ''[[
** It would be a stretch to call the Straw Hats "freedom fighters". Luffy himself has said that [[I'm Not a Hero, I'm X|he's not a hero]] and made it clear that he doesn't really care about the government. The crew is mainly motivated by self-interest rather than doing good in any abstract way. Their conflicts with the World Government usually come down to the government [[It's Personal|doing something to threaten them or their allies]].
* ''[[
* ''[[
* In ''[[
** The exceptions on both sides are Kurama and Nana who would rather avoid any more pain and death, but they are about the two most messed up characters in a story where every single person has serious problems with their mental health (and of course, [[There Are No Therapists]]).
* ''[[
* In ''[[
* Although ''[[
* ''[[
** On the other hand, very few will disagree that {{spoiler|Tobi}} is an [[Complete Monster|irredeemable asshole.]] Even then, his master plan can be viewed as an attempt to {{spoiler|end all conflict in the world by using his Sharingan on everyone at once.}}
* ''[[
* ''[[
* ''[[Desert Punk (
* Given [[Real Life]] history, the Nations of ''[[
* ''[[
* [[Getter Robo]] villains are at best [[Anti-Villain|Anti Villains]], at worst [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|Well Intentioned Extremists]]. The only villains that crossed the [[Complete Monster]] line are [[Human Are Bastards|human]], and really, its hard too see how the villains are "evil" especialy in the manga when most of them consist of the villain fighting for the happiness of their people, or trying to SAVE the world, complete with several [[Heroic Sacrifice]] to save the world. The only explanation for their status as villains are the fact that they are not human.
* The feuding ninja clans of ''[[
== Comics ==
* [[Marvel Comics|Marvel's]] [[Civil War (Comic Book)|Civil War]]
* ''[[Watchmen (
* IDW's [[Transformers|Megatron: Origin]] miniseries shows the series's iconic [[Evil Overlord]]'s rise to power from a laid-off energon miner through underground [[Blood Sport|gladiator]] to the leader of a rebellion against a corrupt Cybertronian senate, with the Autobot Security Services presented as an incompetent and in some cases fascistic police force under the control of the aforementioned senate.
** Before this the Dreamwave comic series revealed that the Autobot ruling council were servants of the Quintessons, the Transformers' entire history was a lie told to keep the Autobots in line and Megatron, having found all this out, forced the Decepticons to try and free his people and to bring order to the universe, albeit through very [[Knight Templar]] behavior.
* [[World War Hulk]]: Warbound vs Illuminati. The Illuminati weren't guilty of the crime that Hulk was avenging, but they ''were'' the reason he was on Sakaar in the first place.
* ''[[
* ''[[Superman Red Son]]'': [[
* ''[[Alien vs. Predator]]'', in both comics and video games, as the [[Alien]] is not much sentient, the [[Predator]] borders on [[Blue and Orange Morality]], and the humans are most times just doing their jobs. Whoever it's the villain depends on the viewpoint character.
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== Fanfics ==
* ''[[Tiberium Wars (Fanfic)|Tiberium Wars]]'' portrays both the Global Defense Initiative ''and'' the Brotherhood of Nod in sympathetic light, with Nod being presented as desperate and angry and vengeful for the wrongs GDI has perpetuated on them, and GDI being presented as [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|Well Intentioned Extremists]] who nonetheless are trying to protect the world and defend themselves against Nod aggression.
* It should come as no surprise, but the crossover fanfic ''[[Renegade (
* Fittingly, considering the canon series' [[Grey and Gray Morality]] and [[Black and Gray Morality]] tendencies, the [[Mass Effect]] fanfic The Council Era is entirely these two. The [[Villain Protagonist]] seeks to create a Utopia for the galaxy, and does improve it over time, but he believes that [[Utopia Justifies the Means]] and commits seriously heinous acts in order to marginally improve the galaxy. His [[Worthy Opponent]] in this [[Evil Versus Evil]] plotline merely seeks to create a firm foothold for his newly spacefaring people, the krogans. By exterminating every other species, and turning the krogan into a [[Master Race]].
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* While the [[Star Wars|Clone Wars]] saw the Separatists being led by a bunch of [[Corrupt Corporate Executive|corrupt corporate executives]] and Sith Lords and a homicidal cyborg, a lot of the worlds joining them were only doing so to oppose what they with some justification saw as a corrupt Republic. To grey out the other side further, as Anakin Skywalker observed, even the Jedi Council was feeling compelled to move into a more pragmatic and less moral direction. Ultimately, though, Anakin's protestations about [[Grey and Gray Morality]] when he has fallen to the [[Dark Side]] are ironically empty, as he has chosen to join with the altogether [[Black and Grey Morality]] [[Big Bad]] who was behind it all from the start and who makes him eat kittens.
** The Separatists are still on the darker end, though. Yes, the Republic ended up becoming the Empire, but the conduct of clone troopers before Order 66 was much better than the droids. Also, contrast the Jedi Generals with General Grievous, and consider the fact that many Republic generals and statesmen later became rebels. Furthermore, that corruption in the Republic? It largely originated from those same [[Corrupt Corporate Executive|Corrupt Corporate Executives]] that led the Separatists. The Republic isn't perfect, but at least they don't have a reputation of wanton brutality.
** The trope is invoked in the opening of ''[[Revenge of the Sith]]'', where the blurb briefly mentions that "there are heroes on both sides." In the films proper, however, there aren't any good Separatists shown on-screen. The ''[[Star Wars:
* In the 2007 Chinese film, ''[[Film/Warlords|Warlords]]'', the three main characters are all grey, and so are pretty much all the characters. There are no heroes or outright monsters. This is a film that challenges the viewer to decide which is the more moral choice. Sometimes the moral thing to do results in greater harm or loss of life than the socially reprehensible thing to do.
* ''[[King Kong]]'', especially the [[Peter Jackson]] remake. Kong, an aggressive animal who kidnaps a human but wants to protect her as well, fights first a film crew -- greedy, but they don't initially want to hurt anyone and only capture him as a last resort, and later the army, who want only to defend their city.
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== Literature ==
* In [[Chung Kuo]], there is no really good side; both the Han rulers and the European rebels commit atrocities as the story progresses
* The War between Manticore and Haven in ''[[
* Featured very prominently from the second series onward in ''[[
** And then there's ''Sunrise''. [[Broken Base|You could argue all you want over]] who was most responsible for the angst-filled mess that is the ending, but the most reasonable explanation (and the one that causes [[Mind Screw|the least headaches]]) is that ''everyone'' was in the wrong to a certain degree.
** {{spoiler|Hollyleaf also eventually [[Face Heel Turn|goes insane]] and possibly may show up in the fourth series as a [[Knight Templar|self-righteous villain]].}}
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** ''[[Ysabel]]'' is closer to [[White and Grey Morality]].
** And ''[[Tigana]]'' covers the whole spectrum. You've got the sympathetic and "good" Devin and Dianora, then [[Anti-Hero|Alessan]], [[Anti-Villain|Brandin]], and [[Complete Monster|Alberico]]. In other words, it's more like White and Gray and Darker Gray and Black morality.
* ''[[
* Steven Erikson's ''[[Malazan Book of the Fallen]]'' has this part of the time, such as in the Malazan/Darujhistan conflict and the Letherii/Tiste Edur Conflict. At other times the series veers into [[Black and Gray Morality]] (the Crippled God vs. everyone else) and even [[Black and White Morality]] ({{spoiler|Anomander Rake vs. Chaos}} in ''Toll the Hounds'').
* [[Philip Pullman]], who wrote the ''[[His Dark Materials]]'' series, is the master of this trope. The story revolves around a mysterious thing called Dust. One side, the adults, believe it is evil and corrupting the innocent children; whereas the children themselves know basically nothing about it but dislike what the adults are doing, so they decide that it's really good. This gets less ambiguous, but it is still possible to read it as the Dust is a [[Necessary Evil]], or an Ultimate Good; and even individual characters are like this. Lyra's mother, for example, is one massive, manipulative bitch who {{spoiler|cuts childrens' daemons away from them (which is like splitting your soul in half}} but, on the other hand, she eventually {{spoiler|sacrifices herself with Lord Asriel, Lyra's father, to take down Metatron and "make the world safe for Lyra."}} Who the ''ultimate'' evil -- the ''most'' evil -- is is another good question; whether it's the Authority, the Church, Mrs Coulter, Dust, the people interpreting the Church's positions, the Knife, the Specters, or Father Gomez and his forces. And as if that weren't enough, they're left with a [[Bittersweet Ending]], too.
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*** Hardly. Lyra, who is pretty much the author mouthpiece, continues to distrust and dislike Asriel and his methods for the entire series after what happened above. Asriel is depicted as [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|a man who has noble goals, but uses highly questionable methods to reach them]], while Mrs. Coultier is a dangerous sociopath with one redeeming quality, namely love for Lyra. They manage to combine their better qualities in a mutual [[Heroic Sacrifice]]. The books pretty much revolve around the issue that all people are flawed, and seemingly good people can do very bad things and vice versa.
* The ''[[Chaos Walking]]'' trilogy is all about this. While Mayor Prentiss is a darker shade of gray, Mistress Coyle and the Answer's methods of stopping him (no matter what the cost) can be those of a terrorist or a freedom fighter. This is heightened when the heroes are forced upon the two different sides, while being aware of how much rubbish the whole war is. Also the fact that it's practically a gender battle heightens the uncertainty of the war. In the third book {{spoiler|they team up in an alliance against the Spackle, even though the Spackle are the ones that were treated so terribly}}
* ''[[
* The ''[[Star Wars]]'' [[Star Wars Expanded Universe|Expanded Universe]] flies up and down the morality scale [[Depending
* On the one hand DORLA in Kit Whitfield's ''Benighted'' uses police state tactics and functionally, if not officially, operates on a "guilty until proven innocent" mentality. On the other hand they do a dirty, dangerous and very necessary job and get less than zero appreciation for it from the public.
* There's an interesting variation on this trope in Jack Campbell's ''[[The Lost Fleet|Lost Fleet]]'' series: the protagonist wakes up from almost a century in suspended animation, having been "killed" in the first battle of a presumably [[White and Grey Morality|White on Grey]] war, to find the same war still raging, but with both sides reduced to the lowest possible moral levels as a result of ridiculously high attrition and a circle of atrocity and counter-atrocity. Being understandably appalled at this, he goes on to teach his fleet [[An Aesop|about honour and efficiency]] to move it away from Black on Black to [[Black and Grey Morality]] before exploring the mindset of his Syndic enemies (upgrading them from Black to merely ridiculously inefficient dark Grey). And then {{spoiler|it turns out that there are ineffable aliens (with [[Blue and Orange Morality|their own morality altogether]]) [[Let's You and Him Fight|behind it all]]. By the end of the story, Geary only manages to deal with the aliens by completely defeating the Syndics first and getting to the other side of their territory.}}
* [[George
** The Starks are protagonists because they are [[Honor Before Reason|honourable to a fault]] and seek out diplomatic solutions before entering combat. Despite this, one of their most useful bannermen is Roose Bolton, who is tolerated as a [[Token Evil Teammate]] {{spoiler|until he finally does betray them}}, and testimony from peasants in the wrong place at the wrong time show that lower ranking Stark soldiers [[Rape, Pillage and Burn]] just as much as the Lannisters.
** The Lannisters are antagonists because they hire people like [[Complete Monster|Gregor Clegane, the Bloody Mummers]], {{spoiler|[[Face Heel Turn|and House Frey]]}}. Despite this, it is mentioned several times that the common people loved Tywin Lannister, because while he might be a bad person, he was an excellent ruler, and he gave Westeros a great deal of peace and prosperity while he was Aerys' Hand of the King.
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* Paolo Bacigalupi's ''The Windup Girl'' is very dark grey on all sides. The calorie men are out to make profits by whatever means necessary, but they're also trying to stave off unending waves of plagues and blights. The Kingdom of Thailand heroically resists the outsiders who want to plunder it, but it's also deeply corrupt and politically unstable. Hock Seng, who appears ready to do anything to save himself, also has one of the most depressing backstories, and {{spoiler|when we last see him, he is risking his own life to save a little girl.}} A character who looks heroic will turn out to have something very dark in their past (or present), while one who looks villainous may have honorable intentions.
* David Drake's Hammer's Slammers does a good job of showing how this trope [[Combat Pragmatist|applies]] [[I Did What I Had to Do|in]] [[War Is Hell]]; both the titular mercenaries and their opponents do some [[Shoot the Dog|pretty]] [[Obligatory War Crime Scene|despicable]] things in order to hold their own losses down, like nuking a rebel stronghold because attacking it any other way would result in unacceptable losses for the attackers. When the series deviates from Gray and Gray, it's usually to go to [[Black and Grey Morality|Black and Gray]], especially if [[The Unfettered|Major]] [[Psycho Sidekick|Joachim]] [[Complete Monster|Steuben]] is involved.
* [[Keys to
* In ''[[The Kingdoms of Evil]]'': The main character is put in charge of all the evil in the world. Next up, figure out what the hell evil actually is.
* Jodi Picoult's ''[[My
* In ''[[The 39 Clues]]'' book series, even [[Brother-Sister Team|Amy and Dan]], who are by far the nicest and most principled [[Big Screwed-Up Family|clue hunters]], will do morally questionable things from time to time.
* The first book of the ''[[
* The soldiers and rebels in ''[[
* [[The Black Company]] by Glen Cook at best. Most prevalent in the first book, and then appearing here and there throughout the series.
* The people on either side of the diamond wall in ''[[
== Live-Action TV ==
* ''[[
* Sometimes crops up in ''[[Doctor Who]]''.
** It was common in the show's early historical episodes. ''The Crusade'' shows both Richard the Lionheart and Saladdin to be honourable men.
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** JMS pointed out in first season commentary that he was proud to have pulled this off when the Vorlons were just as prone to blow stuff up with no real justification.
** JMS also stated that the actors who played Londo and G'Kar were asked to flip a coin to see who would be the "good" one. He was immediately asked: "Who won?"
*** [[Fridge Brilliance|The joke makes a lot of sense in hindsight]] given that Londo and the Centauri are initially portrayed almost wholly sympathetically, while G'kar and the Narn are portrayed very much as villainous. By the end of the second season, however, both the characters' and audience's sympathies have completely reversed (in part thanks to Londo making a [[Deal
* The [[The Cavalier Years|English Civil War]] drama ''By the Sword Divided''. There are some obviously 'good' characters, but none of them are perfect, while no one is shown as an out-and-out villain either.
* The new ''[[Battlestar Galactica Reimagined]]'' started off with the Cylons nuking the entire twelve colonies (ostensibly in retribution for the human's mistreatment of them before the first Cylon War) and the surviving Colonials running and trying to find Earth in a rag-tag fleet. However, as the seasons went on, the Colonials were shown more and more as people who could compromise their morality to survive, ultimately culminating in the {{spoiler|arrival of the Pegasus and Admiral Cain, who not only allowed torture, but allowed her sole Cylon prisoner to be raped over and over again. Near the end of the second season, the episode "Downloaded" also showed a different side to the Cylons ? some even thought the destruction of humanity had been a bad thing. This eventually resulted in an [[Enemy Civil War]] and the end of the fourth season saw an alliance between the Colonial Fleet and the Rebel Cylons.}}
* In various seasons of ''[[Survivor (TV series)|Survivor]]'', the final two (three in more recent seasons) was often seen as this, both (or all three) people pretty much annoyed the Jury and they wound up voting for who they viewed as the lesser evil.
** ''Marquesas'' is perhaps one of the ''best'' examples of this trope; Neleh admittedly didn't start playing the game until Day 24 and glided through on other peoples' shoulders, while Vecepia flip-flopped enough times to make everyone question where she stood, and won because everyone was mad at Neleh.
** ''Thailand'' - Brian was a cold emotional sociopath who barely even spoke to the other tribe, and was accused of sexism and backstabbing among all things, while Clay was accused of racism and generally being a lech. Brian won only because he had enough people who respected him on the jury.
** ''Samoa'' is another more recent example of [[Grey and Gray Morality]]. Most of the jury was indeed angry at all three, who either rode coattails to the end without contributing much on their own and saying they deserved it in real life, (Mick), rode coattails and played dumb (Natalie), or wantonly bullied their way through the game and bragged about how awesome they were (Russell). Ultimately the vote was overwhelmingly towards Natalie - not for her strategic play or physical prowess, but because the jury thought she was a legitimately nice person.
** ''South Pacific'' - [[Number Two|Albert]] was seen as a sleaze and someone who nobody liked or respected, [[Ice Queen|Sophie]] was seen as a pretentious and condescending brat, and [[My Greatest Second Chance|Coach]] was accused of using religious hypocrisy and breaking his word several times over despite claiming to play with "honour" and "integrity". Ozzy laid it out in his opening jury speech - the jury did not want to vote for any of them.
* In ''[[
* ''[[Dollhouse]]''. While what the Dollhouse and the Rossum Corporation do is clearly nightmarish, and Paul Ballard (and earlier, Caroline) must be right to want to bring them down, Ballard is prepared to do very dubious things to do it, while Caroline is irresponsible and quixotic. Meanwhile, the people who work for the Dollhouse seem to really believe that they're doing good by "giving people what they need", and the dolls are all volunteers...
** DeWitt's house, at least, seems to recruit people in desperate straits and helps them establish new lives after their term is finished. Whether this is rescuing them or preying on those with no options is an exercise for the viewer.
** The episode where we first see Tudyk's character, {{spoiler|Alpha}}, really shows the G&G. {{spoiler|The start of the episode shows Echo saving a young girl from a downward spiral and helping her get over her traumatic past, while Ballard sneaks into the Dollhouse after finding it, accidentally bringing Alpha with him and causing problems while trying to help.}}
** For added gray bordering on [[Fridge Horror]], consider {{spoiler|Boyd's stated reason for harvesting Echo's spinal fluid. If the antidote he could have synthesized was used properly it could potentially have saved thousands of people from being wiped, imprinted, bodystolen, and killed and may have severly mitigated the eventual downfall of civilization depicted in the season ending episodes.}}
* ''[[
* In ''[[Merlin (TV series)|Merlin]]'', the boy wizard himself and Arthur are definitely good guys. But they support a [[Knight Templar]] king who would execute Merlin if he knew the truth, often against [[Designated Villain|designated villains]] with a legitimate grievance, and Merlin often makes some [[What the Hell, Hero?|questionable choices]] to balance his nature against his support of the king. Why? In Arthur's case, family loyalty; in Merlin's it's just [[Because Destiny Says So]] ("destiny" in this case being a dragon with a fairly major grudge against Uther himself). Hence, when {{spoiler|Morgana decides to side with Morguase}}, it's very hard to see it as a [[Face Heel Turn]], and the script doesn't really make much attempt to present it as such.
* ''[[The Wire]]'' is one of the finest examples of this trope in any medium. While you may arguably root for the cops to make their case, it's impossible to see even ''most'' of the cops as good guys. And the criminals get far too many humanising moments to possibly be considered bad guys. Creator David Simon said he wasn't interested in doing [[Black and White Morality|good vs. evil]] anymore; the results were as far in the opposite direction as can be done. While the politics remain consistently gray, as do the inner workings of the police department, in the conflict on drug kingpins, whenever [[Complete Monster|Marlo Stanfield]] and his crew are involved, the show arguably crosses over into [[Black and Gray Morality]].
* ''[[Dexter]]'', especially when it comes down to Dexter vs. Doakes in season 2. In the words of the man himself:
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* ''[[Buffy the Vampire Slayer]]'' often dips into this. [[Dark Action Girl|Faith]], for example, still retained sympathetic traits even after doing a full-fledged [[Face Heel Turn]] (she [[Heel Face Turn|recanted]], eventually), and the heroes have [[Shoot the Dog|shot the dog]] on occasion, claiming they [[I Did What I Had to Do|did what they had to do]].
** In the season eight comics, Buffy's taken to international jewel thievery in order to finance her Slayer army. "The banks are insured! It's a victimless crime!"
* In stark contrast to other ''Trek'' series, ''[[Star Trek: Deep Space Nine]]'' is pretty much built on this trope, with the protagonists being [[A Lighter Shade of Grey]]. Hell, just watch "In the Pale Moonlight"... or listen to Kira talk about her days in the Resistance.
** "In the Pale Moonlight" is closer to an example of [[Black and Grey Morality]], combining [[I Did What I Had to Do]] with [[The Extremist Was Right]] in the face of losing a war against an [[Omnicidal Maniac]] empire.
* During its first three series, ''[[The 4400]]'' featured several distinct factions (NTAC, the 4400 Centre, the people from the future, the Nova Group, Jordan Collier and his followers, {{spoiler|Dennis Ryland}}'s company), all of which are shown as in some way sympathetic, with good intentions. It's not until series four that we finally see some unambiguously bad guys ({{spoiler|The Marked, who want to stop the 4400 and bring about the apocalypse just to make sure they stay on top of the pile}}).
* While ''[[Fringe]]'' often presents wholly evil villains of the week, [[Myth Arc|the war between parallel universes]] has oodles of this trope. The person most directly responsible for starting the conflict is Walter, our loveable [[Mad Scientist]] good guy, who ''kidnapped his [[Alternate Universe]] counterpart's child'': the subsequent actions of Walter, William Bell, Walternate and both Fringe Divisions are attempts to defend their home universes from the other side's "attacks". Neither universe is depicted as "evil" or malicious. Walternate's ruthless, but he's faced with a world that's collapsing due to Walter's actions and believes it's the result of a deliberate attack by "our" universe. Also, Walter conducted experiments on children, a line Walternate was unwilling to cross.
* ''[[La Femme Nikita]]'' -- the 1997 Canadian series, not the reboot -- may not be a great show, but it did a superb job of gray vs. grey, so good that it's worth watching just for this. Everyone is compromised, no one has clean hands, the intertwined layers of greater and lesser evil get extraordinarily complex, and the hero (or anti-hero) manages to embody the trope to near perfection--despite some truly cringworthy writing and character assassination. Even {{spoiler|the luminous, golden-haired heroine}} fits the trope by the middle of the first season. Signaled conveniently by the all-black dress code for most characters.
* ''[[Star Trek: Deep Space Nine]]'' flirts with this at some points. In a fifth-season episode, ''The Darkness and the Light,'' someone is targeting members of Kira's [[La Résistance|former resistance cell]]. She finally identifies the killer {{spoiler|a Cardassian servant disfigured in one of their bombings}}. He claims, persuasively, that she killed innocent people whereas he never did, such as a bomb she set taking out not only a brutal Cardassian war criminal, but ''his entire family'' too, along with anyone in the immediate vicinity, whereas he goes out of his way only to target them, and even spare the life of the unborn child she's carrying. Kira retorts that ''every'' Cardassian on Bajor, even if they just ''folded shirts'' as a servant shouldn't have been there and were guilty legitimate targets. True, she's talking with a calculating, cold-blooded killer, but it drives home that, yes, Kira ''was'' a terrorist, and from his point of view he is the [[Title Drop|"light" to her "darkness"]]. Kira's only real reply is the old idea that the one cannot exist without the other, or as she says "the light is brightest in the dark."
== Music ==
* [[The Monkees (
{{quote| ''But today there is no day or night''<br />
''Today there is no dark or light''<br />
''Today there is no black or white''<br />
''Only shades of grey'' }}
* A [[
** [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4tDP-yMwXI Or does he?]
** French singer Jean-Jacques Goldman titled one of his songs "Entre gris clair et gris foncé" ("Between Light Gray and Dark Gray"). Specifically, its lyrics are about the increase of ambiguous morality in fiction.
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== Tabletop Games ==
* While individual conflicts often have more clearly defined heroes and villains, almost every major faction in the ''[[
* ''[[Exalted]]''. While the various demons, undead, and [[The Fair Folk]] are usually portrayed as antagonistic (and even then, there are exceptions), the various human and Exalted factions all have plenty of good people mixed in with the villains, selfish bastards, and crazies.
** The only being that, no matter what point of view, is in fact, in the black side of the scale, no matter how you look at him, is the Ebon Dragon, who is pretty much the literal embodiment of dickery, evil, and opposite to all virtues. He created the Unconquered Sun, so he could have something to be the opposite of. He also invented betrayal.
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* ''[[STALKER]]'': The conflict between Freedom and Duty is this, combined with [[Order Versus Chaos]]. Duty are a faction of grizzled ex-military types who believe [[Eldritch Location|The Zone]] is an abomination that threatens the world and should be destroyed. Freedom are a group of anarchists and thrill-seekers that believe The Zone is a miracle that provides beneficial eldritch artifacts and therefore should be freely accessed by the public. Neither is especially nicer than the other, and they both have their share of [[Jerkass|dicks]] and [[Nice Guy|nice guys]].
* The [[Succession Crisis]] in ''[[Dragon Age]]''. The Dwarf origin stories give you some pretty clear reasons for supporting each. Commoners would want to support Bhelen because he fights to end the oppressive caste system and wants to open the country more to the outside. Nobles would want to support Harrowmont because it's their father's wishes and he's more "Traditional". You also have a personal reason for doing so, Harrowmont is a ''very'' nice guy and a [[Reasonable Authority Figure]], as he fights ''hard'' to make sure the dwarf noble is given a fair trial. Bhelen meanwhile fights hard to get to the throne...to near sociopathic levels, as he's {{spoiler|rightfully}} suspected of killing his older brother and getting his other sibling blamed for it. <ref>The noble even has a chance to call him out on this, during which he has almost ''no remorse'' for it unless you compliment him and say he was better at playing the game</ref> Oh, and to keep things up, Bhelen, if chosen, becomes a {{spoiler|dictator who leads his city into a new era of prosperity}}. Harrowmont meanwhile {{spoiler|dies partly due to the stress of ruling and causes Orzammar to fall into decay while expanding its isolationist practices}}.
* Just about all of ''[[
* Daein and Crimea engage in this for most of ''[[Fire Emblem]]: Radiant Dawn'' (taking it so far that you, the player, actually control a party from each country at different points, even when those two parties fight each other) before finally banding together against the unequivocally black morality of Begnion's corrupt senate.
* ''[[
** House Dagoth are portrayed as evil, but still remain rather gray. At most the main quest is closer to [[Black and Gray Morality]].
** The fifth installement, ''Skyrim'', takes place in the middle of a civil war: the Empire, after losing a war against the [[Our Elves Are Better|Aldmeri]] [[The Empire|Dominion]], was forced to outlaw the worship of Talos and are generally viewed as cowards who oppress the citizens of Skyrim instead of resisting the Dominion's rule. The Stormcloak Rebellion wants an independent kingdom, but most of them are bigots who want "Skyrim for the Nords" [[Fantastic Racism|and confine the Argonians, Khajiit and Dark Elves to slums]].
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* When it comes to player races, ''[[World of Warcraft]]'' is surprisingly nuanced in terms of morality. Neither the Horde nor the Alliance have exclusive claims to goodness or evil, though the tauren and the draenei (one for each side, naturally, although for the tauren this is usually [[Gameplay and Story Segregation]], as the 5% hp buff and their racial stun ability makes them very appealing to people who like [[PvP]], and so tauren players are usually the most vicious of the lot) are both pretty much objectively good. Originally the Horde were very much [[The Horde|their namesake trope]], while the Alliance were [[The Alliance|theirs]]. However, the Horde redeemed itself, but both sides still have problems with each other and thus fighting between them still continues.
* ''[[Battle for Wesnoth]]'' has this in the campaign Descent into Darkness. You control a young mage apprentice who takes up dark magic (read: animating corpses) to defend his town, and is exiled. His sister, the town guard, holy knights who show up for no reason but to piss you off in the hardest mission of the campaign all wish to have him killed. He takes revenge on them. In the end, it's mostly black versus black or black versus grey (with you playing the part of a very borderline black) but until they drop an anvil on you and have you fight endlessly repeating (and rather easy) battles against random commanders, you never genuinely know who to root for.
* This is the theme of the ''[[Tales
** ''[[Tales of Phantasia
** ''[[Tales of Symphonia
** ''[[Tales of the Abyss|Abyss]]'': {{spoiler|Van}} only wanted to [[Screw Destiny]] and destroy the Score, the near-mindless obedience of which has caused the destruction of his native Hod. {{spoiler|Mohs}} is determined to follow the Score to the letter, believing it to be the Auldrant's ''only'' path to progress. On the heroes' side, [[Spoiled Brat|Luke]] is a [[Jerkass]] extraordinaire, [[Mysterious Waif|Tear]] keeps to herself all the time, [[The Lancer|Guy]] trusts {{spoiler|Van}}, [[Hot Scientist|Jade]] was once a morally-ambiguous scientist, [[Gold Digger|Anise]] is a gold-digger {{spoiler|with good reason}}, and [[Royals Who Actually Do Something|Natalia]] is {{spoiler|revealed to be an adopted commoner}}. The only thing that kept Luke and company with [[A Lighter Shade of Gray]] is their [[Character Development]] (especially Luke's {{spoiler|traumatic}} transformation from spoiled brat to a more reasonable guy).
** ''[[Tales of Vesperia|Vesperia]]'': {{spoiler|Alexei}} simply wanted to use Zaude to end the world's reliance on blastia {{spoiler|which is slowly killing it -- unaware that it is actually ''the'' seal to an [[Eldritch Abomination]]}}. {{spoiler|Yeager}} is an amoral mercenary who {{spoiler|gives his earnings to an orphanage and has adopted two girls to be his sidecicks}}. On the heroes' side, [[Vigilante Man|Yuri]] is more than willing to [[Necessary Evil|stain his hands with blood in the name of justice]], while [[Knight in Shining Armor|Flynn]] believes in the power of law and order [[Lawful Stupid|to the point of overlooking the basics of morality]]. As for the overarching plot, it comes down to a debate between preservation of nature at humanity's expense versus alteration of nature to suit human needs at expense of other lifeforms.
* The war between the [[Order Versus Chaos|Messians and Gaians]] in ''[[Shin Megami Tensei I]]'' and ''[[Shin Megami Tensei II]]'' works a little like this, if you don't see it as Evil: the former are basically a well-meaning, [[Lawful Good]] people ruled by a group of genocidal [[Knights Templar]], and the latter are mostly a bunch of [[Chaotic Evil]] anarchists ruled over by a few wiser demons that either want to stop the Messians from carrying out their [[Utopia Justifies the Means]] plan or wish to achieve true freedom from the oppressive reign of [[God]]. The closest thing to a compromise that you can achieve is deciding to [[Kill'Em All|destroy]] both groups.
** In ''[[
* In the first ''[[
** In the sequel, ''[[Deus Ex: Invisible War
** The prequel, ''[[Deus Ex: Human Revolution
* The three player factions (Humans, Mutants, and Biomeks) of ''[[Auto Assault]]'' were set up to be like this, but when you really look into it the Humans turn out to be the biggest bastards of the bunch, even if they were originally doing it to ensure their survival.
* ''[[Command and Conquer]]'' started off with GDI as heroic good guys fighting against the evil [[Cult|Nod]]. However, later games revealed that Nod actually has reasons for fighting, and a number of the higher-ups in GDI are rather dodgy.
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* ''[[Ace Combat]] 5'' has a war between superpowers [[Eagle Land|Osea]] and [[Lzherusskie|Yuktobania]] at war with one another...until it becomes known that Belkans had been infiltrating high-ranking positions in the two countries, and essentially setting up the war so they'd destroy each other as vengeance for losing the last one. By the end, both superpowers team up and collectively beat the tar out of the interlopers.
** For ''[[Ace Combat]] Zero'', while the Belkans do not seem to have overt good going for them, Cipher can slide along the scale of greyness depending on how many crippled or civilian targets he goes after. {{spoiler|A World With No Boundaries}} are [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|well intentioned extremists]] who seek to bring about a [[One World Order]] and eliminate the political boundaries that lead to fighting... It's a pity they have to use a nuke to do so.
* ''[[Sid
** Attempting to lump any of those factions into anything resembling an alignment has more to do with the player's agreement with that faction's rhetoric than actual in-game observation. Example: Lady Deirdre Sky and the (supposedly) peace-loving tree huggers actually breeding and using said mind-raping worms as a military, or Chairman Yang really just promoting social harmony. Once you've played a game where Brother Lal (leader of the so-called "Pacifist" faction) or Lady Deirdre are that game's evil empire who starts dropping planet busters on you when you start picking apart their faction (a war which almost invariably occurs because -they- declared war on you for not giving in to their extortion demands), you begin to understand that Alpha Centauri truly does live this trope.
* The ''[[Star Wars]]: [[Knights of the Old Republic (
* The ''[[Fable]]'' series plays with this Trope, especially with the character of Therese. Played straight with Lucien in the third game who, like Revan, {{spoiler|became a vicious tyrant merely because he wanted to strength his country to fight The Creeper.}}
* Depending on how you count, there have been between 7 and 12 playable factions in the five ''[[Geneforge]]'' games. All except Rawal and the Barzites can make a decent argument for themselves, and all except arguably the Awakened have [[Kick the Dog|Kicked The Dog]] at least once.
* ''[[
* The companies Reliable Excavation and Demolition and Builder's League United in ''[[
** Considering the Evil Overlady announcer voice is identical for both sides, there is the potential possibility that both teams are working for the same boss. Which really starts messing with your head if you think about it too much.
** The official tie in comics have confirmed that [[I Knew It!|this is in fact the case]].
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** Also the Enclave, who changed a bunch of genocidal Nazis from the old Fallout games into [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|far more well intentioned and far less extremist]] organization which at worst plans to {{spoiler|kill hundreds of super-mutants and raiders by sacrificing a handful of scavengers}} and, given the amount of in-fighting and opposition to the 'final solution', the members of the Enclave only generally agree that the [[Crapsack World|Wasteland]] sucks and order ought to be brought back under a unified government.[[Designated Villain|Does the game ever actually explore any of this?]] [[Alternate Character Interpretation|Of course not.]]
*** But the game hints us that {{spoiler|only those who grew up in The Vaults and Enclave members are unaffected by the HEV probe, thus innocent and even good hearted ghouls and people who grew up in the Wasteland (who present slight mutations) will be needlessly wiped out. Leaving the Government personnel and the Vault dwellers to rule the wasteland}}. So, if anything, I'd say the Enclave's actions are of a darker shade of grey. Broken Steel confirms something even worse: anyone who has ever been outside a vault in their life dies from the mutated FEV strain.
** Also in ''[[Fallout: New Vegas]]'' the conflict between the New California Republic, Caesar's Legion and Mr.House is promised to be this. The NCR is supposed to be [[The Federation]] which is expanding too fast and can't properly feed or protects its country or its inhabitants, Caesar's Legion is a ruthless, but effective organization that provides absolute safety, limiting true freedom to only strong human males, and business tycoon Mr. House fell JUST short of completely protecting the Vegas area before the bombs fell and wants to protect and rebuild Vegas to its former glory, but idealizes a sterile vision of the Old World and demands large amounts of payment. To make it even more grey and gray karma will not be the main change that occurs due to your interactions between the three factions, instead it will be your reputation. [[Dark Horse Victory|Of course, there's also the option of siding with none of the groups...]]
* The ''[[Suikoden]]'' series, most notably ''[[Suikoden II]]'' is praised for this trope, presenting the characters as humans in a compromising situation, instead of personifications of good or evil. It is very rare to find a hero who is completely morally sound (except possibly the main characters), yet it is also rare to find a villain who is purely and irredeemably evil (...except [[Complete Monster|Luca Blight]]). While this keeps the stories from becoming too simple or cliche, it also gives an interesting human perspective to the bizarre and often supernatural happenings that occur.
* In ''[[Yggdra Union]]'', every major army is neither perfectly good or perfectly evil--even the bandits are just taking advantage of others to survive, the character who engineered the constant wars is a [[Well-Intentioned Extremist]] [[Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds]], and the society that broke ''him'' so happens to be a bunch of [[Knight Templar|Knight Templars]] being manipulated by a [[Villain
* ''[[Sigma Star Saga]]'' has this in spades: you, the heroic human character, are ordered to do some pretty horrible things by your superior, while the Krill, supposedly aliens hell-bent on Earth's destruction, are actually pretty decent people (with a few glaring exceptions) who harbor no particular ill will towards Earth at all. {{spoiler|Turns out that there's a couple of [[Government Conspiracy|Government Conspiracies]] on ''both'' sides of the conflict who are the truly evil ones, and the vast majority of both humans and Krill are good.}}
* ''[[Ar Tonelico]] II: Melody of Metafalica'' is a great example. Despite the fact that almost every character holds the same moral stance from beginning to end, pretty much every antagonist in the game will be considered a valuable ally at some point and nearly every ally gets a respectable stint as an antagonist. Even [[The Hero]] is arguably a [[Well-Intentioned Extremist]], and the closest character to true evil is a foreigner trying to save his homeland.
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* In ''[[Dynasty Warriors]]'', Wei might look like the [[Designated Villain]]. However, Cao Cao himself is just merely a pragmatist [[Magnificent Bastard]]. In the meantime, while Shu Kingdom is the [[Designated Hero]], Liu Bei has personally done some things worth being called out, such as taking over his kingdom from his relative Liu Zhang for 'destiny', and his reckless assault on Yi Ling. The Wu Kingdom themselves can be also seen as an 'opportunist' who takes advantage of the chaos to do as they like. Aside of all those, each kingdoms have their own sympathetic characters. Even Zhang Jiao comes off pretty sympathetic and his ending had him true to his words and made a peaceful nation with his Way Of Peace. Hell, the only [[Obviously Evil]] character is just Dong Zhuo.
** In the fourth game Dong Zhou has his own campaign which shows things from his perspective; he is the legal Emperor and the protagonist factions are merely opportunists looking to snatch up pieces of the crumbling Han Empire.
** This could almost be a Trope Namer. While there have been numerous changes in the overall tone of the story over the course of the series, one thing has remained constant: NONE of the factions is a whole lot better than ANY of the others. (The only one who's a whole lot ''worse'' is Dong Zhuo, and even that doesn't become too blatant until 5.) The Empires games take it a step further; you start out dead-center neutral with whoever you play as, and it's entirely up to you how good or evil your reign is. Of course, part of the reason is that, historically, none of the great powers succeeded in unifying China (that would be some 11th-hour Jin Dynasty opportunist named Sima Yan), so it's impossible to say who the "hero" or "villain" really was. It might be a subversion ([[Alternative Character Interpretation|or accurate]]) of how Wei and Shu were portrayed in ''[[
* In ''[[Samurai Warriors]]'', especially the second title, the focus is about the battle of Sekigahara. Those who side with Ishida Mitsunari will probably see him as a [[Jerkass]] who snarks a lot and is being redeemed with the values of friendship and honor; and see Tokugawa Ieyasu as a [[Fat Bastard]] who is stealing the throne of Japan while it rightfully belongs to Toyotomi Hideyori. However, those who sides with the Tokugawa know that Ieyasu is instead a 'Fat Gentleman', and he puts a lot of care to his fellow officers and people, condemning the West (especially Mitsunari's ally Kanetsugu) of using pretty words like 'honor and justice' to do underhanded things and robbing the freedom of the people. In fact, ''[[Samurai Warriors]]'' is much grayer than ''[[Dynasty Warriors]]'', the closest we can get of [[Obviously Evil]] is Fuuma Kotarou, and even he's ''still'' grayer than Dong Zhuo.
* ''[[Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater]]'' uses this as its main theme. Naked Snake is fighting in Soviet territory and nobody is really on the side they seem to be on. Betrayals, double-crossing etc. are rife. The Boss explains to Snake that there is no such thing as an absolute enemy. Wars simply happen because of circumstance as leaders and situations change: soldiers are just pawns to this. {{spoiler|Then of course Naked Snake becomes Big Boss and forms the La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo and eventually Outer Heaven. His support team, who seem kindly allies end up crooked, with the loquacious Dr. Clark performing sick experiments on Gray Fox and the tea-drinking Brit Major Zero becoming the mastermind of the La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo.}}
** [[Metal Gear Solid 4 Guns of the Patriots|MGS4]] further drives the point home when one realizes that the [[Amazon Brigade|Beauty & Beast Corps]] are war-scarred women outfitted with advanced nanotechnology and [[Big Bad|Liquid Ocelot]] is {{spoiler|1=[[Good All Along]] (relatively), is actually ''the'' Ocelot from MGS3 pretending to have assimilated Liquid Snake's personality, and is stopping the Patriots' plans.}} On the good guys' side, Roy Campbell's marriage to Raiden's wife Rosemary {{spoiler|was a facade meant to protect her and their supposedly-miscarried son Little John from the Patriots while Raiden is out fighting}}, and Rat Patrol 01 {{spoiler|1=is the Patriots' [[Unwitting Pawn|Unwitting Pawns]] -- their acronym ("RAT PT 01") can even be rearranged to spell "PATR10T" -- who are meant to eliminate Ocelot before he foils their plans -- [[Spanner in
* Ditto for the ''[[Legacy of Kain]]'' series. By the time Defiance rolls around, you're never really sure who's supposed to be the good guy and who the bad guy.
** The Hylden have a single redeeming feature? Or are we just talking about freakish abominations not imprisoned in another universe?
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** The second has even more moral ambiguity. We're given the choice between the Aotou Gang, who are run by an [[Obviously Evil]] [[Jerkass]] but whose rank and file are shown to be likable fellows who are easily swayed; the town magistrates, who act like [[Knights Templar]], but truly love their town; and the town militia, who are the working stiffs just trying to live their lives, but who are also involved with prostitution and minor drug dealing.
*** On the other hand, [[Complete Monster|Kyojiro Kagenuma]] really IS as insane and just plain evil as she appears to be. That she has her own ending (and it's a major [[Kick the Dog]] one) is telltale.
* ''[[
** This is Squall's worldview in ''[[
* The ''[[
* ''[[City of Heroes]]'' new expansion, ''Going Rogue'', runs on this.
** On one side is Emperor Cole (a.k.a. Tyrant) and his underlings whose philosophy is something like, "Order at any cost." If the player joins the Loyalists, he can then use the power of the Praetorian Empire to either [[Lawful Good|protect its citizens]] or [[Lawful Evil|advance his personal power]].
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{{quote| Enemy soldiers? They're not my enemy; they're just doing their jobs. ''Light'' is the real enemy.}}
* ''[[Final Fantasy Tactics]]''. In the beginning, two princes are fighting each other for the throne. Since it is basically the [[Wars of the Roses|War of the Roses]] in the form of Final Fantasy, neither side is really good. Later in the game it becomes more like [[Black and Gray Morality]] once the Church and {{spoiler|Delita}} start playing more significant roles in the war. {{spoiler|Delita, while ultimately a hero that saves the kingdom from falling into utter chaos, still uses any and every Machiavellian method available to him in order to accomplish his goals. The Church is basically controlled by Satan}}. The only white to be found is Ramza and his fate is {{spoiler|[[Crapsack World|to become a footnote in history]]}}.
* Used heavily in the ''[[
** In ''Dark Dawn'', the effects of releasing Alchemy are starting to take hold, the world is being reshaped, some heroes of the earlier games are [[Dude, Where's My Respect?|reviled for their efforts]], and the heroes of ''this'' game have to stop and debate whether or not to rescue a known criminal from a [[Cruel and Unusual Death]]. In the last instance, Karis [[Lampshade Hanging|has to explain this trope]] to Amiti (who [[The Ingenue|really is just that naïve]]).
*** Really, there is only one truly evil character in the whole series. Too bad that he's [[The Chessmaster]]...
* In ''[[Rift]]'', you've got the [[Knight Templar|oh-so-devout]] Guardians versus the [[Mad Scientist|innovative and self-reliant]] Defiants, [[The Usual Adversaries|trying to thwart each other at every turn]]. Both sides have skeletons in their closets, both sides are ostensibly trying to hold off [[The End of the World
* ''[[Wings (
* None of the three main factions in ''[[Sins of a Solar Empire]]'' can be considered truly good or bad. The Trade Emergency Coalition appear to be just [[Technical Pacifist|Technical Pacifists]] trying to fight off the "evil" Vasari and the vengeful Advent, but the reason the Advent are vengeful is because the traders exiled them from their homeworld 1000 years before for having different ideas about social norms. The Advent may have legitimate grievances against the traders, except the ones who actually exiled them died a long time ago, so they're trying to punish people who didn't do anything to them. The Vasari used to be a vast [[The Empire|empire]] and still follow similar policies in terms of enslavement and locking down colonies, but they're just the remains from a single colony that have been fleeing an unknown enemy that has destroyed the rest of the empire for tens of thousands of years and are conquering trader worlds only to get enough resources to be able to continue their flight.
** All three sides engage in a total war against their enemies, nuking planets from orbit until everyone is dead.
* All of the major organizations in ''[[Lusternia]]''. Despite their underlying themes, they are only as good or evil as the individual characters that dwell there. The city with all the trappings of a [[Lawful Good]] [[The Federation|federation]] has [[Witch Hunt|zealot]] [[Knight Templar]]s galore: the city with all the trappings of a [[Lawful Evil]] [[The Empire|empire]] has [[The Corruption|mutated, undead]] family men and pacifists among their [[Putting
* [[Might and Magic]] VIII is full of this: it features a [[Big Bad]] whose only reason for being that is that he ''can't'' stop once he has started (no matter how much he wants to)<ref>He was programmed that way as a security measure, to keep the Kreegans from subverting him</ref>, a conflict between dragon hunters out for profit and xenophobic dragons that see nothing wrong with eating other sentients, and a war between the Necromancers' Guild of Jadame (who, in the modern day of the game, are a fairly laid-back bunch, mostly wanting to keep to themselves) and the Church of the Sun (who came to Jadame to wage war on Necromancers without provocation, and are somewhat corrupt and self-serving).
* In ''[[Avadon]]'', both {{spoiler|Redbeard}} and {{spoiler|the Duke}} have both positive and negative traits that can make it hard to decide who to side with.
* In ''[[
* ''[[
== Web Comics ==
* ''[[Last
* ''[[Angels 2200]]'' does not go into the causes behind the colonies' revolt against earth, and both sides are composed of leaders who use morally dubious tactics in order to win and soldiers who only want to stay alive. Then again, depending on {{spoiler|what the true origin of the genetic plague is}}, one of the sides might count as black.
* [[Word of God]] claims that this is the case in ''[[
* In the very [[Not Safe for Work]] webcomic ''[[Felarya]]'', man - eating monsters are depicted as no worse than the humans they eat.
* The conflict between Agatha and Klaus in ''[[
* The main conflict in [[Juathuur]] is between control and freedom. Both sides have their reasons, and their differences are mainly due to age gaps (as the 'control' side grew up in a world torn by war, and the 'freedom' side did not). See the comic page for details.
* The main characters of ''[[Narbonic]]'' are a mad scientist, her henchwoman who loves to destroy things, her henchman with a deep dark secret not even he knows, and a superintelligent gerbil whose efforts to do good often cause more havoc and chaos than some of the evil plans afoot.
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* The online book [[Imperial Dawn]] is centered around a war between those who support democracy, and those who are moving towards an arguably better new government system. Neither side is presented as wholly good nor bad.
* ''[[There Will Be Brawl]]'': There is no good or evil. The 'good guys' are drug dealers, strippers, or [[Fallen Hero|Fallen Heroes]], the 'bad guys' actually have a plan to improve the quality of life in the Mushroom Kingdom, and the cops are corrupt and trying to usurp the throne. The only one with a clear designation is Kirby...who is a psychotic cannibal, a la [[The Silence of the Lambs|Hannibal Lecter]].
** There's also [[Pokémon Red and Blue
* ''[[Red vs. Blue]]''. The default characterization seems to be 'incompetent jerk', with variations lying mostly in the type and degree of incompetence and/or [[Jerkass|jerkassery]].
* [[Dark Dream Chronicle]]. One side has [[Cute but Psycho|the Laughing Clown]] and [[Would Hurt a Child|Darkness]] as two of its primary members. The other is trying to warp humanity for their [[Utopia Justifies the Means|Cause]] and are more than willing to use violence to get there. Oh, and it's led by the [[The Slender Man Mythos|Slender]] [[Humanoid Abomination|Man]].
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* In ''[[Pokegirls]]'', humankind survives entirely due to a system of raping and brainwashing the eponymous female subspecies... which are themselves notorious for rape and ''murder''.
* [[Equestria Chronicles]] takes place in a cold civil war setting. Nuff said.
* While Doug's writings of the anniversaries are a bit blacker, [[
== Western Animation ==
* ''[[Justice League]] Unlimited'': For the Cadmus Story Arc, Cadmus is presented as rather dodgy, but with legitimate fears about the dangers of superheroes. The heroes, meanwhile, had a habit of putting the good of their own members ahead of that of unpowered individuals most at risk of supervillains.
** Notably, this went so far that {{spoiler|the writers were forced to have [[Hijacked
* ''[[Exo Squad]]''. The Neosapiens do perform atrocities and Phaeton is pretty much a [[Card-Carrying Villain]] but they are [[He Who Fights Monsters|responding to being essentially slaves]] whose earlier, more moderate attempt to gain civil rights was stomped on. The [[Space Pirates]] are more chaotic than evil and are motivated by a combination of survival and having been screwed over themselves in the past.
** If you like to know the background for the [[Space Pirates]] they were a prison labor force that were abandoned once the Neo Sapiens were made and {{spoiler|were driven crazy by their secret homeworld Chaos.}}
* ''[[
* The Jet/Zuko conflict in the later half of season 2 of [[Avatar: The Last Airbender]], since both are former villains seemingly on the road to redemption, there's really no way to give one moral superiority. However, since Jet was the aggressor, and the show had spent most of the season building up Zuko's eventual [[Heel Face Turn]], [[A Lighter Shade of Gray|he came off as more in the right]].
** On the other end of the spectrum, the Fire Nation wasn't portrayed as entirely evil. There were plenty of nice people, even many who actively helped out the heroes. Iroh was always shown as benign, and even when Zuko was a villain, he was always very sympathetic. Mei and Ty Lee were only aiding Azula because they feared her, and had some feelings of friendship for her that they eventually realized she wasn't going to return. Even by the end, Ozai was really the only villain to be shown in "black" morality, with {{spoiler|Azula clearly having issues and having a mental breakdown by the end}}.
* ''[[Ed, Edd 'n' Eddy]]'' is chock full of this. Kevin is evil in the eyes of Eddy, who is actually pretty cruel himself, who is viewed as merely ignorant by Double-D, who is seen as a talking encyclopedia to Ed, who is seen as a complete idiot by Sarah, who is seen as the greatest heroine by Jimmy, but is otherwise seen as an annoying and violent [[The Scrappy|Scrappy]] by everyone else. And that's not even covering the [[Minimalist Cast|entire cast]].
* ''[[Daria]]'': Despite some of the shallow natures and flaws of characters, few characters are truly malicious and at some points prove to be decent people (such as DeMartino and Britney). Daria, while mostly moral, can often become petty and cold towards others.
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** Case in point, the English Civil War. On the one hand you've got the Roundheads, democratic ([[Fair for Its Day|for the times]]) Parliamentarians led by elected MPs, who also believed in forcing their own brand of repressive Puritanism down Britain's (or rather England, Scotland, and Ireland's) collective throat; and on the other, the Cavaliers, a group of cheerful, fun-loving, relatively liberal unelected nobles, lead by Charles I, who believed he had a God-given right to randomly declare war on other European nations, and demand massive tax revenues to pay for them, with no legal obstacles whatever. They were both fairly dark shades of grey.
** The war between the Spanish and Aztec; both sides had strengths but also had abominable elements. One recurring theme with native american history is that the natives are always portrayed as peace-loving pacifists who were just fighting back...however, with the war between the Spanish and the Aztec, over ''twice'' the army conquering the Aztecs were in fact natives (Especially the Tlxcalans) who sided with the Spanish. The Aztecs weren't exactly popular. Likewise, a moral strength of Spain that tends to get glossed over is the fact that Cortes had wanted to maintain the social structure of the empire, and had he gotten his way, the Aztecs basically would have been Spanish Citizens.
** The [[Arab
*** Likewise, the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan after [[The Great Politics Mess-Up]], which quickly turned ugly for both sides with ethnic massacres all around, and was started thanks to [[Joseph Stalin]] some 50 years prior when he gave a mostly Armenian-populated province to the Azerbaijani SSR. The fact that the conflict has been frozen and unsolved since 1994 has just given time for the hatred between the two countries to fester.
* Piracy. Most people on both sides of the issue believe that it's really [[Black and White Morality]] (with themselves always being the white) but it's really more shades of grey. Yes DRM has been intrusive, often turning away people and even having ''virus-like behaviour''...but it really doesn't look very good for pirates when [[The Witcher|games]] [[World of Goo
** It looks even worse when something like the Humble Indie Bundle comes around that gives you 5 or so DRM free games that you can pay any amount you want, and people still pirate it, despite the fact that they can pay as little as a penny for it.
** On the other hand, there have been DRM free games that have sold really well.
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